Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Music Conservatory Brainiac Naked, Muddy, Kills 4

Episode Date: October 15, 2021

On a September day, Orion Krause calls his mom to get a ride home. The pair decide to visit her parents. Not long after, four bloody bodies are found in the family home.: Krause’s grandparents, Elizabeth Lackey, 85, and Frank Lackey, 89, his mother, Elizabeth Krause, 60, and the health care worker, Bertha Mae Parker, 68.Down the street, a neighbor is calling 911 after a naked man, covered in mud, shows up at his front door, saying he's just murdered four people. It's Orion Krause.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dale Carson - Criminal Defense Attorney, Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Dan Corsentino - Former Police Chief, Former Sheriff, Served on US Homeland Security Senior Advisory Board, Private Investigator, www.dancorsentino.com Dr. Todd M. Barr, M.D. - Deputy Medical Examiner/Forensic Pathologist at Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's Office Featured in "Thin Places: Essays From In Between" by Jordan Kisner, Twitter: @ToddBarrME, Angenette Levy - Emmy-nominated Reporter & Anchor, Twitter: @Angenette5 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Four dead bodies and a naked man covered in mud on your doorstep? Four dead bodies and a naked guy covered in mud rings your doorbell? That's how this whole thing goes down. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let's start at the best place to start, the beginning, with a 911 call. Take a listen. Groton Police, line is recorded.

Hello, Groton Police, how are you? Good, sir. What can I do for you? This is Jim Moore, Rockport Police Department in Rockport, Maine. Okay. And what I've got is a mental health problem. Is this a Ryan Krause? Holy cow, yes, it is. You're like the fifth call we've gotten on, sir.

We've got an officer on scene, and we've got EMS on the way. Does he have any weapons do we know? None that I know of. I got a call from one of his former teachers in Oberlin. Yes, Mr. Haddad. Okay. Okay, I talked to him. Okay, all right.

We've got people on scene, sir. All right, very good. Thank you. They've got a lot bigger problem than what they know of right there. Again, thank you for being with us. This is Crime Stories. Let me introduce you an all-star panel to make sense of the four dead bodies. I'm less worried about the naked guy than I am about the four dead bodies. You know, when I first started prosecuting, I had never really seen a naked guy at a crime scene before. I'd been in a classroom studying Shakespearean literature.

But for some reason, I got used to seeing naked guys, sometimes covered in mud. But when a civilian goes to the door and sees a naked guy completely covered in mud, I guess they do call 911. With me, Dale Carson, veteran criminal defense attorney joining us out of Jacksonville. But what I really like about him is the fact that he's a former fed, a former FBI agent, former cop and author of Arrest Proof Yourself. I don't like that part. You can find him at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dr. Angela Arnold joining me. We're now psychiatrists out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dan Corcentino, former police chief in Fountain, Colorado, former sheriff and on U.S. Homeland Security Senior Advisory Board. He's PI now at DanCorcentino.com.

Dr. Todd M. Barr, Deputy Medical Examiner, Forensic Pathologist, joining us out of Cleveland. And Anjanette Levy, first to you, Emmy-nominated reporter and anchor, Twitter at Anjanette5. Anjanette, take a listen to our friend, the Middlesex District Attorney, Marion Ryan. Listen. On Thursday evening, Mr. Krause left his home in Rockport, Maine. Shortly after he left his mother, Mrs. Krause had some concern about where he might be going. She reached out to the Rockport, Maine police, indicating the vehicle that her son was driving. She was reassured by being contacted by her son early on Friday morning, who indicated he was fine.

He had traveled to the greater Boston area. Later on Friday morning, Ryan Krause contacted his mother again and asked for a ride back home to Maine. She agreed to come to the greater Boston area and pick him up, which she did. The original plan was for them to return back to the family home. At some point, a decision was made to go and visit Orion's grandparents in Groton. So we're hearing so far about a grown man calling his mom, saying, I'm on the way to Boston. And then they join up and they head to the grandparents. But now, take a listen to our friends at WCVB, Channel 5, Boston. Investors say they got a call for help from a location near this home.

Police responded. They found that individual, gathered some information, then traveled to another location on Common Street. At that location, they found four deceased individuals. There is no cause for alarm. This was not a random act. We do believe at this point that the people were all connected and had relationships and the town is safe as as it pertains to this particular incident. State police are expected back on the property with dogs and possibly a drone. The medical examiner leaving not too long ago. Straight out to Dr. Todd M. Barr,

deputy medical examiner joining us out of Cleveland. Dr. Barr, that is a medical examiner's nightmare. Oh, yeah. What's the first thing you do when you go into a residence, a tree-lined street, a low crime rate, and you find mass murder. Well, Nancy, it's one of those things where you've got to go in and you've just got to start absorbing the information as you go very slowly.

We work very meticulously from the outside in. The first thing we do is not go directly to the bodies. You want to start from the outside in so that you don't miss any evidence or any blood spatter or any kind of evidence that may come back around to help solve this crime. For instance, like was the door forced open? Correct. Was the door, are there bloody fingerprints on the door? Is the flower pot kicked over where there may have been a spare key? Are there tread marks, footprints, like muddy footprints, wet footprints at the doormat at the front? And then, you know, a lot of people believe this is just on TV, but you guys fully suit up in

footies, like surgical footies. Explain that part for people that have not been on a crime scene. You guys actually look like hazmat workers. You're so totally covered. Tell me the whole thing. Well, the reason for that is so as not to disperse any trace evidence or disturb anything or introduce or transfer DNA evidence that may. Yeah, I mean, God forbid one of your hairs ends up on a mass murder scene.

A, of course, would know immediately, would figure out at some point that it was yours. But then that would give the defense the perfect argument about contamination. And evidence could be thrown out. That's just what you don't. I want you to tell me, what do you guys wear exactly? We wear these Tyvek sort of jumpers, jumpsuits that zip up, and you have the hood and the hairnet and the gloves and the booties over the shoes. So everything is pretty much covered. Okay, so you start on the outside in, you get a call, you hear from a cop, there's four dead bodies, which means the cop has already gone in and possibly contaminated the scene. But the reality is they have to, they've

got to go in. I always hate that at trial, Dale Carson, where people, Dale Carson, just like you say the cops contaminated the scene. What do you want them to do, stand outside and wonder what's going on on the inside? Well, and on the off chance that somebody is still alive, they want to go in and try to help someone. That's exactly right. Jump in, Dale. This is the first and most important object of law enforcement is to make sure that if someone's still alive, that they can be protected. So that's the first thing. The second thing, obviously, is to look for the assailant.

So that's why cops go in. But it's great for the defense attorney because when they do that, they introduce trace evidence into the scene, which in a sense, as you say, contaminates it. And there's not a thing, Dan Corcentino, that can be done about that. You're the former police chief. What do you tell your cadets? Well, we're telling our people that they are, first of all, observing. And we want them to observe before they enter

to make sure that there is absolutely no contamination. And I think that Dr. Tombar and obviously Dale hit the nail on the head. You don't want to compromise the scene. The integrity of the scene is most important. Also, let me just comment that, yes, the individual people that are inside the house, should there be one alive, that certainly is a very important factor. But law enforcement also is looking at the perimeter of the scene to see the path of least resistance in and the path of least resistance out, if you will, of where this individual, the potential suspect in this case, how they exited. And so you're going to be paying very close attention to the perimeter

as much as once you get into the scene itself. Absolutely. And again, I can't stress enough how infuriating it is at trial when the defense jumps on the cop for possible contamination of a crime scene. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about four dead bodies found on a tree-lined street. A low crime rate, which makes it all the more a stark comparison. How did it all happen, and how does some other guy end up buck naked, covered in mud on somebody's front doorstep? Guys, I want you to take a listen to our Cut 9. This is our friend Julie Nonsich at WCVB.

Middlesex D.A. Marion Ryan says it all began when Krause, a recent college grad and musician, left his home and his mother in Rockport, Maine the night before. She was so concerned she called police. She was reassured by being contacted by her son early on Friday morning, who indicated he was fine. He had traveled to the greater Boston area. Authorities say Krause asked for a ride home and his mother agreed. At some point, a decision was made to go and visit Orion's grandparents in Groton. Hours later, four adults, 89-year-old Frank Darby Lackey, his 85-year-old wife Elizabeth,

their daughter Elizabeth Buffy Krause, age 60, and Bertha May Parker were found dead. What I don't get yet is a connection between the naked Muddy McGuy on the doorstep and the four dead bodies and an overprotected mom worried about her grown son who took his car to Boston and she wants him to check in constantly. Let's go to the scene. Joining me right now, Anjanette Levy, Emmy-nominated reporter and anchor. Anjanette, tell me about the area. Well, you've mentioned it was a nice tree-lined street. It sounds like just a lovely little neighborhood where this family lived. And there were two older people there in the home. And also, obviously, Orion's mother had taken him to see his grandparents. Those were the two older people.

You know, I'm thinking about this. Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. I've been accused of being overprotective. I mean, how can I help but be overprotective when I see kidnaps and murders and sex assaults all day long? But you would think when your son is grown, you wouldn't be all worried just because he takes a day trip, much less call police because your son hasn't called you. And then within one hour, he does call you. When does it cross the line from being overprotective to some kind of a mental disorder? You know, Nancy, there are mothers that are overprotective for no good reason.

And that is definitely their own issue. Because as a mother, you and I both know, as a mother, while your your child grows up you have to slowly pull your influence away from that child and allow them to grow what is she saying and so if someone is overprotective of a 20 something year old a college grad that's a college grad yeah that's i mean the kid was able to go to a college. Oberlin is a really good college. He studies music there. These are not easy programs to get into. And he was away apparently for four years studying music at Oberlin College. That's no easy school to get into. It's a very rigorous program. And he's graduated and he's out driving his car to Boston, which is what,

like an hour and a half from there, something like that. Which is not an unusual thing for someone of his age to do. So I don't understand why the mother feels the need to be checking in with him and for goodness sake to call the police because she thinks, because he's left. Yeah. I'm sure that I wonder if cops, you know, let me just ask. I've got three former cops with me right now. Let me ask you, Dan Corsentino, former chief of police, Fountain, Colorado. Did you ever have overprotective

moms calling 911? No. On their adult children? Like, I don't know where they are? No, I've never had that in my career. Okay, then I'm marking you off. What about it, Dale Carson? Well we've had checks where people call and want somebody to be checked on but generally it doesn't involve just having left in a car and gone someplace in the mother's car. Well can I tell you something Dale

Carson and Dr. Angela Arnold and Dan Corsentino, we're all wrong. Mommy had reason to worry. Take a listen to Our Cut 11. This is Christina Hager, WBZ, Boston. It was shortly after that he showed up at his grandparents' neighbor's home in Groton, naked and muddy. He says, I need help. I need help. AndED HELP, I NEED HELP. AND THEN HE ADDS I MURDERED FOUR PEOPLE. HE SAID THAT, RIGHT STRAIGHT OUT TO ME AND MY WIFE.

IT HAS STUNNED THE SMALL TOWN OF GRAUTEN WHERE RESIDENTS GATHERED FOR A WEEKEND VIGIL. FLOWERS AND A FLAG AT THE MURDER SCENE DAYS LATER. POLICE STILL WATCHING OVER. AND JUST AS THAT NEIGHBOR

HERE WAS CALLING POLICE, SO WERE FAMILY MEMBERS SAYING A FRIEND HAD CONTACTED THEM AFTER THE MURDER. AND THEIR FRIEND WAS police still watching over. And just as that neighbor here was calling police, so were family members saying a friend had contacted them with concerns about something Orion Krause had told them. By then it was too late. He is now in Bridgewater State Hospital undergoing a psychiatric evaluation. He's being held without bail. Take a listen now to this second 911 call. 911, you're calling? Yes, I'm calling from 42 Common Street.

My name is Wagner Alcocer. We have a young guy, about 20 years old, completely naked with mud. He's a little bit crazy, and he keeps saying that he murdered four people. We don't know who he is. I made him sit in the backyard. He's just sitting in a chair, but he needs help. Stay on the line with me. Don't hang up, okay?

Hold on one second. Yep. We've gotten to the units. We can head over to 42 Common Street. This is going to be a psychiatric issue. I've got a male party, no clothing on, covered in mud, yelling at somebody at a house at 42. Okay, sir.

I have them on the way. I'm just going to stay on the line with you while they're on the way, okay? Okay. I'm going to give the kid a towel. I wouldn't go anywhere near him. Okay. Do not go anywhere near him. Okay. Do not go anywhere near him. Okay, that's fine.

I'm looking into the window. He's sitting in the back. That's fine. Just let him sit there. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. The neighbor was going to approach this person, a 22-year-old Oberlin University graduate with a power aid. And you hear the cop saying, no, no, don't go anywhere near him. Don't give him a power aid.

Stay away. I want to go straight back out to Dan Corsentino, former sheriff, former police chief. When you're just a dispatch and you realize there's a life-threatening situation, what do you do? For Pete's sake, don't give him a power aid. I mean, you could hear the dispatch officer upset going, no, no, don't. Yeah, absolutely. That's a very disturbing, that's a very upsetting situation. Absolutely.

I mean, there's extreme caution. The inbound call that came in to the dispatch center, that communication officer was on the game immediately. And they were attempting to isolate the Good Samaritan neighbor who was trying to assist this young man at this time. But the dispatcher gave great advice to maintain distance safety and basically contain himself in his house at that time until the law enforcement arrived. As for law enforcement, and I know that Dale and Tom will agree, law enforcement is going to be using extreme caution based on the information that they have.

This is a very unusual case. It doesn't happen all the time, and their alert system is going to go into play. crime stories with nancy grace guys we are talking about a man that shows up on a doorstep completely naked and covered in blood he asks for help he wants wants help. And then he mentions, I murdered four people. Take a listen now to Hour Cut 12. This is Justin Daugherty, WHDH. I saw they had nothing, nothing he's had. So I opened the door again and I asked, what do you need? He goes, I need help. I need help. I murdered four people. Those four people Orion Krause allegedly killed are his mom, grandparents, and his grandparents' caretaker. Officials suspect Krause used a baseball bat. The grandparents' neighbor, Wagner Alcoser, thinks the nature of the crime may explain why Krause showed up on his back patio naked and covered in mud, cleaning himself in a nearby pond.

I asked him, where are your clothes? And he said, I left it in the woods. Wagner then got Krause a white sheet. You can see him here, face still covered in mud. He just sat there for a while, just like a statue, without any expression, nothing. He never had any emotion. Alcoser called police, but while still showing no emotions, Krause did tell Alcoser one other thing. He said, I need my sleeping pills.

And I said, look, just sit here. Don't move. I will get you help. Police arrived, taking Krause away, still in the white sheet. Dr. Angela Arnold, why did we ever doubt mommy. At first blush, you've got a mother actually calling police because her college graduate son has taken their car and driven to Boston an hour or so away. And then she hasn't talked to him. And then suddenly she gets a call from him and then everything's all right. Now we understand was there any way on God's's green earth this mother did not know that he was dangerous?

Oh, I think she knew. I think she knew that he was dangerous, and she probably lived in fear every day of her life. And that's why she was so quick to call the police when he went missing in her mind. But in all of our minds, he didn't go missing. He just went on a trip. But this mother was well aware. And I have to wonder why she was so aware. What has happened in the past?

What has happened in the past? And let me ask you this. Could someone like this manage to graduate from a rigorous program at Oberlin? Yes, it's it's it's wild. I mean, they can show, you know, somebody like this. They're all there. There are actually several different reasons why an episode like this can happen. OK, there there can be a health condition that causes theations can cause this and drug use can cause this and people can come out of it, Nancy, and he may have been being watched carefully, maybe medicated. I'm just saying that.

But the mother knew. I'm not ready to buy into the fact that he is insane, which means do not know right from wrong at the time of the incident. I'm thinking about him going into a pond to try to wash the mud off, discarding what I'm going to guess are bloody clothes. I think I hear Anjanette Levy jumping in, joining us. Anjanette, jump in. Well, I just wanted to bring up, you know,

there was some reports from a former professor of his at Oberlin at the College Conservatory of Music, who had told police that he had said at least once before this and actually right before it happened that he wanted to kill his mom or believed that he had to kill his mom. And then he had told a nurse after it happened that he had also used heroin. So if he's mentally ill and then you're coupling it with heroin, he could just be spiraling out of control. Okay, stop right there, Anjanette Levy.

That's incredibly important to me right now. So I want to go back to Dr. Angela Arnold, very renowned psychiatrist joining us out of Atlanta. Dr. Angie, two things. One, and I'm going to get our law enforcement to chime in, as well as our medical examiner. People think heroin was back in the 70s, like Jimi Hendrix time. No, no. Let me tell you, my husband's longtime friend had the golden boy, brilliant, beautiful, handsome, a star on the track team. He tried heroin one time.

This was just a couple of years ago, Jackie. Heroin's floating around in high schools. He tried it one time, got hooked. The dad sent him to psychiatric help to, you know, to get him off. He got off. He went for a full year back in school, back on the track team. Everything's fine. They find him dead of a heroin overdose.

It gets a hold of you like nothing else I've seen. That and meth, I think, are right now the worst. But before we get to the heroin possibility, I don't know that had anything to do with this. Why does everybody want to kill their mother? What is it about your mother? I love my mother. I never thought of actually killing her. Well, and again, Nancy, we're talking about, I mean, of course you don't want to kill your mother.

And I'll bet you don't do heroin either. I mean, the thought has never crossed my mind. No, no, no, Angie. No, Dr. Angie, if I may be so bold. People that aren't on drugs kill their mothers. I mean, Norma Bates was based in hatred of your mother. In that case, a very overbearing mother. And you had her stuffed, sitting in a rocking chair for pizza.

But people, what is it about hating your mother? And wanting to kill your mother. You just identified the problem, Nancy. And the problem is that some mothers can be controlling. And when that happens to a young man, sometimes they become very resistant when they get older or they get on drugs. Dale Carson, as much as I respect you, criminal defense attorney, former FBI author, are you a shrink? Well, yeah, in a sense, I guess.

Pause. You're not. All right. You're not. However, let me back off that because actually any cop, anybody that's made it all the way to FBI and former officer, you've been around the block a couple of times and you know what you've seen. You don't have to have an M.D. like Dr. Angie to know what you just said. And I agree with you 200 percent. But to murder her. I don't understand the murder my mom fantasies, Dr. Angie, as much as I agree with you 200% but to murder her? I don't understand the murder my mom fantasy Dr. Angie as much as I agree with Dale Carson. Well you know

what I'm going to say Nancy. No I don't. It's terrible but this is the truth. Okay. First of all it's called matricide the killing of the mother. Yes. And Nancy this is so horrible. It's like there's a combination of hatred for the mother and a sexual desire.

I can always count on you to just kick things off, can't I, Dr. Angie? But, see, I also disagree with that because girls kill their mother, too, not as often. Exactly. So I don't think there's a sex component to everything. Well, there's not a sex component to everything. It's all about sex with you, Dr. Angie. There's not a sex component to everything, but there's a sex component to a. It's all about sex with you Dr. Angie. Somehow you... There's not a sex component to everything but there's a sex component to a lot of things. Okay so if it's a sex component

why about what about the other dead bodies? Yeah. Is he sexually attracted to his grandfather? Well the other dead bodies the other dead bodies could have been a part of the psychosis that he was that he was involved in at the time that it was going on and his hatred and his anger, and he just killed everybody. They could have just been in the way. Or maybe he had decided in his head that they all needed to be gone.

I mean, why did he kill the caregiver? Why is the caregiver dead? Let me say that. Maybe he just did not want control, period. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to go to Dr. Todd M. Barr, Deputy Medical Examiner, pathologist, joining us out of Cleveland. He's seen, I can only assume, and conducted thousands of autopsies. We are understanding, Dr. Barr, that a baseball bat is the murder weapon.

To me, that says rage, anger and rage. Absolutely. I've been on several scenes where a baseball bat has been used, and it is probably one of the most grisly crime scenes I've ever been on, to assault somebody with a weapon like that and and four people my my my mind is kind of boggled uh when when one person is affected but four people how were they all trapped how did one of them not get out not one well one of them did get out. Yeah, and was murdered outside the home. Hey, Dr. Todd Embar, let me just ask you a question off topic. Sure.

The way you started that explanation, you said, I've had several baseball bat murders. Yeah. Now, see, that's the kind of thing most people don't hear every day. I've had several baseball bat murders. They are definitely few and far between. When you are out and about, let's just say you're at a dinner party or you're at church and Sunday school or wherever you may be, do you ever find it hard to just have a normal conversation about the weather or gas prices or politics? I personally do not.

I don't have any problem with that. I have what I like to refer to as a healthy detachment from the work I do and the life that I live outside of my work. I'm glad to hear that because everything outside of the twins, my children, and crime completely disinterests me. If I go and somebody asks me about politics, don't care. You know, the new cars don't care. Clothes, jewelry, the weather, don't care.

I'm sure that's a disorder that Dr. Angie would like to deal. But let's move on with the current case. Guys, take a listen to our cut number five from WCVB. You can see the police still on the scene here. This, take a listen to our cut number five from WCVB. You can see the police still on the scene here. This is Common Street in Groton. Five investigators has now learned that a baseball bat may have been used in these murders. We have some new video in this morning of Common Street's, the deadly quadruple murder scene. You can see the house from the street and police still on the scene. Police discovered that their bodies were in the home just after six last night. Investigators say three women and a man suffered

blunt force trauma. Police did arrest Orion Krause, who they believe is related to the victims. They call it a tragic case of family violence. An older man and woman and two middle-aged women were killed. Three of the bodies were found inside the home, a fourth outside and we're learning more about his demeanor. Take a list of Paul Burton WBZ Boston. Wagner says when Kraus came to him, he was acting very strange and covered in mud. Wagner said he gave the man a white blanket and told him to wait outside on this chair and immediately called police who placed him under arrest. He was extremely calm. He never raised his voice. He surrendered himself. He didn't resist. He did what I asked. He followed my instructions. All throughout the day, neighbors and passerbys could not believe the gruesome scene

and police presence, but glad police say this was an isolated incident and not a random act. We're all touched by this in some way. And my thoughts and prayers are with the family, the neighbors, anybody close to them. They're sad, shocking that innocent people had to go through such horrendous deaths. Police are still investigating. So far, no word on a motive. To Anjanette Levy, Emmy-nominated reporter and anchor. Anjanette, what can you tell us about Krause's disturbing behavior immediately following the quadruple murders? Well, he apparently went to the home to say he had killed the people, and he was also singing and saying, I freed them.

I freed them? Yes. He said he was singing quietly. One of the officers said that he saw him and singing quietly and said, I freed them. How did he come to be covered in mud, Anjanette? Well, he was cleaning himself off in a pond of sorts. So as far as the mud goes, I'm not 100% clear on that. But I don't know if he was rolling around in it or what. But I know that the caregiver was found. Was it one of the bodies found outside?

In the flower bed. Well, if he tackled the person and killed her in the flowerbed, I would imagine he got dirty. Right. But I'm also curious, he had also taken off all of his clothes. Were they covered in blood? I mean, if this were a baseball bat quadruple murder, I guess so. Right. And he, I mean, it sounds, it almost sounded as if Bertha, the caregiver, was trying to get out of the house.

Because when the police went in there, they found, you know, grandma and grandpa sitting at the kitchen table with the TV on. And then Bertha, the caregiver for the grandparents, was outside in the flower bed. So you would think he would have already, maybe he killed the people inside, took his clothes off, and then went outside as she tried to escape. But it seems like she probably would have been trying to run away. What did police discover when they arrived at the home? The grandparents were sitting at the kitchen table is what the

police said. And the TV was on in the kitchen. Wait, they were dead sitting at the kitchen table? Correct. And they were still sitting there? Yes. Wow. Okay. I mean, they're older. They're in their late 80s. They're also dead from a baseball bat. They're still sitting there with the TV going. I understand that a wooden bat with blood on it was found under a tree in the backyard, along with a bag of golf clubs in the backyard. There was a pile of clothes, a pillow, a pair of shoes, which is interesting, that were placed, not thrown, in the woods nearby. To Dr. Angela Arnold, what does the especially brutal nature of the bludgeoning deaths tell us about the killer's mindset? He was so angry. He was so angry at these people. How in the world could someone, I don't understand how somebody can bludgeon, and not one person, Nancy, but four people, and people that he is supposed to love. He must have been very angry with them, and I also believe he felt in some way that we haven't uncovered yet, very controlled by his grandparents. This is Dale. And the reason they went to the grandfather's house is because in stable families, the matriarch and the patriarch are the ones who can calm things down because they have a long view of what goes on in the world.

And so by taking her son to see them, she's trying to establish some calming and control over him. That's why they were there to begin with. Well, you know what's really interesting, back to you, Anjanette Levy, Krause's own mother had called police the also said, tell them, the cops, my son needs gentleness, not force. I mean, she obviously felt that was the best way to deal with him. Maybe there had been some issues in the past where she had encountered him and maybe he became violent at times. But it obviously didn't work because she they were all beaten in the head according to the police report right and even mom

was yeah it's just so there was something something happened and she was concerned enough to call the police and he had talked about killing his mom so yes he had he had told his instructor at Oberlin guys take a listen to this. O'Ryan Krause appeared unfazed in the courtroom with a band-aid on his arm, accused of bludgeoning his own mother to death with a baseball bat. Also, his elderly maternal grandparents and their caretaker, all of them here at their Groton home Friday. District Attorney Marion Ryan explained Krause's mother, Elizabeth Lackey Krause, also known as Buffy, had contacted police in their hometown of Rockport, Maine, the day before she was murdered, saying her son left home. His mother, Mrs. Krause, had some concern about where he might be going.

She reached out to the Rockport, Maine police, indicating the vehicle that her son was driving. But Ryan says the 22-year-old then contacted his mother Friday morning, saying he was okay, that he was in Massachusetts, and later asked her to come get him, which she did. At some point, a decision was made to go and visit Orion's grandparents in Groton. Straight back to Anjanette Levy, anchor and reporter. Initially, the defense was considering an insanity defense, but it didn't work. Why not? Well, because they sent him to the hospital for 40 days and he was deemed competent. So, you know, even if he had some mental illness, they still determined that he was able to understand what he was doing was wrong at the time that it happened. You know, that's a fine line, Dale Carson, when you're talking about competency to stand trial versus the insanity plea.

Insanity means you did not know right from wrong at the time of the incident. Incompetent to stand trial means at the time of the trial, you are in such a bad shape, you cannot assist your counsel. They're not the same thing. Well, that's exactly right. Now, when you have a psychotic episode, as this individual apparently had, then it also reflects some organization, right? He left. The evidence was stood up against the tree, the weapon was, and then he tried to hide the blood on himself. And then he wandered to a neighbor's house. It shows some level of confidence. He wasn't entirely psychotic after the event. And then he had that

post-event calmness that the neighbor observed when he was sitting in the chair because his rage had all been expelled at that point. You know, Dr. Angie, following up on what Dale Carson is saying, typically, I argue that someone is not insane, that they did know right from wrong at the time of the incident. But I really think this guy had a psychotic episode and that he was insane at the time of the incident. I rarely think that. But in light of the fact that he had threatened suicide the day before, that he had called his professor in the days preceding the quadruple homicide and said, I think I need to kill my mother. To me, I mean, you are covered in mud, butt naked.

You're trying to clean off in a pond. And then you sit in somebody's back seat peacefully, wrapped in a sheet until the cops come get you. That sounds insane to me. I know. get you that sounds insane to me i know nancy it sounds insane to me also and it sounds like this had listen he was thinking about this this was brewing inside of him he got it done and then he was and then the calmness came because he got it done nancy i don't understand why there wasn't any intervention before this incident happened. Why didn't somebody report this?

He pled guilty, but he got four second-degree murder convictions. But the reality is he's going to go to a regular jail for 25 years at least. I don't like the idea of someone that has mental illness or insanity in with GP, general population, because who knows what's going to happen to him. I mean, my concern is with the victims, but I do think this guy is insane. I guess we're going to have to just trust that the system did the right thing, putting him in jail as opposed to a mental facility. I know this, he will not see the light of day for at least 25 years. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.