Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Music star sex freak R. Kelly $300K debt, sex tape woes, 10 CTS sex abuse & can't make bail

Episode Date: February 25, 2019

Despite his huge success as a singer, R Kelly can't find the $100,000 needed to post bond and get out of jail on 10 sex abuse charges. Kelly pleaded not guilty in a Monday court hearing, but he was returned to the jail where he has spent the last three days. Nancy Grace looks at the newest charges against Kelly with a panel including New Jersey lawyer Brad Micklin, Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, private investigator Vincent Hill -- author of "Playbook to a Murder," and Crime Stories reporter Robyn Walensky. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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when you're out at the mall or the store or the grocery, in the parking lot, at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters and daycare, even online. I'd rather have that any day of the week than a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun. Join Justice Nation. Go to crimestopshere.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Will he beat the rap again? What we have learned from two sources who are familiar with the ongoings of the case

is that there has been an indictment filed on Robert Sylvester Kelly, also known, of course, worldwide as the R&B singer R. Kelly. What we have learned over time is we first reported about the grand jury that had convened. We understand that that grand jury actually convened last week. It also convened this week. And that some of this has to do with the women that have come forward accusing him of some kind of sexual abuse. We also know that last week, Attorney Michael Avenatti was able to hand over a tape to the state's attorney's office here in Chicago. Indeed, the Cook County State's Attorney's Office, as we understand it now from two sources, has indicted R. Kelly.

We do not yet know, and we are efforting trying to get a hold of the indictment to find out exactly what he has been indicted with. But this is a huge development. As you know, R. Kelly, back in 2008, went to trial. He went to trial on 14 counts of child pornography. He was acquitted in that trial. And in that trial, there was also physical evidence, including a tape, a videotape that prosecutors at the time says was a girl that was 13 years or 14 years old and R. Kelly involved in sexual acts that had been recorded by R. Kelly. But he was acquitted on those charges because the jury said they simply could not positively,

beyond a reasonable doubt, end up being able to identify R. Kelly or the girl, even though they brought a lot of witnesses to say otherwise. There were witnesses in that particular case that said opposite things, and so the jury just was not able to go forward with the conviction. R. Kelly has always maintained that he is innocent of all the charges and accusations that have been coming at him for the past 20 years. Now, here we are in 2019, 11 years after that case went to trial and he was acquitted. We are seeing now more charges against singer R. Kelly. You hear it from our friend Cyrus Seidner. R. Kelly behind bars still hasn't made a $100,000 bond.

What's the holdup? Robert Sylvester Kelly will spend another night behind bars. He has been indicted and booked on 10 counts of aggravated criminal sex abuse. Straight out to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. P.S. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life, the CSI behind the Casey Anthony trial on Amazon. Robin, what happened? Well, here's the story, Nancy. R, three who were at the time teenage girls. Teenage girls. When you say teen girls, Robin Olinsky, are you talking 13 or 19?

Oh, we're talking 13, 14, 15, young, very young, who idolized this man. Guys, we're talking about R. Kelly Robert Sylvester Kelly, age 52, set to spend another night in jail. Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Tell me about the arrest and the booking. Well, here's the situation. He actually, R. Kelly, turned himself in in Chicago to the police department. And there were many, many reporters, both in mainstream news and entertainment reporters, all there shouting questions at him. Did you do it? Are you guilty? And he said nothing. He turned himself into the police and he was booked. And then the next day, the judge, he had a bond hearing and he was being held on a million dollar bond, has to put up a hundred thousand cash to get out. And so far, Nancy, he hasn't come up with the money. Here's this guy who allegedly has all this money and is worth millions and billions of dollars.

And he can't come up with $100,000 to get out. We are talking about R. Kelly in the last hours. He has been booked, fingerprinted. He is behind bars right now on 10 counts of aggravated sex assault. Prosecutors allege one of the women was an underage girl who Kelly solicited when he was on trial for child porn back in 2008. Let me introduce my all-star panel. for child porn back in 2008. Let me introduce my all-star panel, Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter.

Newcomer today, let the hazing begin, Brad Micklin, New Jersey lawyer, Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned California psychoanalyst, Vincent Hill, cop turned PI, author of Playbook to a Murder on Amazon. Jackie Howard here in the studio. Alan Duke joining me from L.A. Brad Micklin, you're the high-profile defense lawyer. According to sources, one of the women was an underage girl Kelly solicited

while he's on trial for child porn back in 2008. Remember that, Brad Micklin? What if your client jumped up and he's on video with a 14-year-old girl having sex and then urinates in her mouth? I mean, I didn't want to say that, but that's what happened, Brad Micklin. And during that trial, he solicits another underage girl. Well, if it's true, Nancy, it's obviously repulsive. But with regard to the current charges facing him, there are many issues that they need to get passed first. There are going to be statute of limitation issues because these, a lot of these actions were back in the late 90s. You got this documentary out that's going to obtain the jury poll. And yet Abagnati with his hands into the evidence before the prosecutors even get to it.

So I think long before we start to judge him on whether or not he did this, we have to see whether or not there's a basis for him to move forward on it. OK, first of all, the only thing that I heard that makes carries any water with me is the Avenatti issue. You know what? Avenatti has seemed to land in the middle of every controversy. He's involved with the Stormy Daniels issue. Then he somehow injected himself in the Me Too campaign. And now this. I have a problem with him having state's evidence first as well. But that aside, this is a very interesting fact, Brad Micklin, and I did not know this until I started very carefully researching the law. The law has changed in

multiple jurisdictions where the statute of limitations no longer applies in cases like this and it's retroactive, which I was very surprised about, which means that if you commit a crime, say you committed the crime in 2000, the 2000 law doesn't apply anymore. You get the 2019 law. That's very rare, very rare under our constitution, but it's happened. So statute of limitations is not going to help him. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned California psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany, I mean the nerve, while he's on trial for child porn, got a jury, the works. According to these prosecutors, he solicits another little girl. Nancy, he's compulsive. I mean, he is a sex predator. Predators predate. The attorney who was giving the press this morning kept talking about the fact that there was more than five years age difference

between him and his victims. She said it again and again and again. And what that tells me is she's trying to say, he's not your average run of the mill sex predator. He is a pedophile. The criteria for pedophilia is that there is more than five years age difference between the offender and the victim and that the victim is prepubescent. Now, the youngest one was 13 years old, so she was on the cusp. But as you just mentioned, there was that other case when he was brought up on charges of child pornography. So this guy just can't stop himself. His whole life is organized around the compulsion. And I think, Nancy, that this is why he doesn't have any money. How can you make money when all you want to do

is have sex with little kids? It ruins your entire life. This is all he can do. He's a talented musician, but I bet most of his waking hours are thinking about obtaining access to children and having sex with them. Well, also, if reports are true, he is keeping up at least six different properties in the Atlanta area alone, plus whatever he's got going on in Chicago, housing all of these women that are in his harem. And that is a euphemistic way to put it. You know what, let me just put it like this. I've told many a jury, and Brad Micklin is going to shudder during this. The story at the end of a closing argument about Mr. Scorpion and Mr. Turtle. Mr. Scorpion meets Mr. Turtle at the side of the river and says, please, just carry me across. And Turtle says, oh, no, Mr. Scorpion, because you will surely bite me and we will both go to the bottom of the river and I will die.

But Scorpion says, I promise. Why would I kill myself? So begrudgingly, Turtle takes him across the river. Halfway across, Turtle feels a pain in his neck. And he says, Mr. Scorpion, you bit me. Now we will both die. And Scorpion says, I can't help it. It's just my nature. Earlier today, Robert Kelly was indicted before a Cook County grand jury on 10 counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse involving four victims. The first victim, initials H.W., was involved in incidents which occurred between May 26 to 1998 and May 25, 1999. A grand jury returned an indictment on four counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse

based on the victim being under the age of 17 and Robert Kelly being more than five years older than the victim. The second victim, initials R.L., was involved in an incident which occurred between September 26, 1998 and September 25, 2001. A grand jury returned an indictment on two counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse based on the victims being under the age of 17 and Robert Kelly being more than five years older than that victim. The third victim, initials LC, was involved in an incident which occurred February 18th, 2003. A grand jury returned an indictment on one count of aggravated criminal sexual abuse based on the transmission of semen by Robert Kelly upon any part of the body of the victim for the purpose of sexual gratification during the course of an

underlying felony of attempt criminal sexual assault. The fourth victim, initials JP, was involved in incidents which occurred between May 1st, 2009 and January 31st, 2010. A grand jury returned an indictment on the three counts, three counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse based on the victim being under the age of 17 and Robert Kelly being more than five years older than the victim. Aggravated criminal sexual abuse is a class two felony with a sentencing range of three to seven years for account. It is also probationable. We anticipate that Mr. Kelly will appear in bond court tomorrow afternoon. Thank you. You are hearing the prosecutor outline all of the charges against R&B star R. Kelly, Robert Sylvester Kelly. And right now he's sitting in the can. There's just

no nice way to put it. He's behind bars trying to drum up the money to make bond. Joining me, Robin Walensky, Vincent Hill, Dr. Bethany Marshall and Brad Micklin to Vincent Hill, Dr. Bethany Marshall, and Brad Micklin to Vincent Hill, cop turned PI, author of Playbook to a Murder on Amazon. You know, they go all the way back to 1998 for these claims are so old, why are they just coming forward now? You know a juror might fall for that. But there are other counts as well. Vincent, what did they have to do to get this information, to get the evidence, to show the case? Well, Nancy, I'm glad they did update the statute of limitations for these gruesome crimes. I mean, this reminds me of a Monica Lewinsky. You heard you got semen on dresses, you got semen on shirts,

you got semen on blouses. So the physical evidence is there. Thankfully, if we can get past these statute of limitations, we can actually get a conviction. And it's no wonder he's still sitting in jail and he can't come up with a hundred grand. He's been paying off women for years. He foreclosed on his house in 2012 because he had to go and pay off these women in several cases. So it's no wonder he's sitting in jail. And that's where he belongs, quite frankly. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned California psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany, you would think after the first jury trial where he's actually brought up on felony charges of creating pornography with a girl 14 years old. You would think that that would stop him, but it didn't, according to prosecutors.

Offenders offend again and again and again, and they organize their entire lives around the compulsion to offend. Like, say a lesser compulsion, let's take for example alcoholism. An alcoholic might get a job as a bartender. A pedophile might get a job as a priest or as a school teacher. A sex offender pedophile might become a musician so he can lure little girls and he will remain undeterred even when he has to pay out settlements. This is what we saw with Michael Jackson. Remember, settlement after settlement with little boys, but the crimes went on and on. And that's because there's also something called institutional sociopathy where one sociopath bands with

another and then bands with another. These people like R. Kelly, and we saw this with Harvey Weinstein, they surround themselves with people who accommodate to their crimes. So they are aided and abetted all over the place, and that's why the offending pattern never stopped. To New Jersey lawyer, high-profile defense attorney Brad Micklin joining us. Brad Micklin, what do you make of the fact that some of the charges date back to 1998? And how would you attack that at trial? Well, and that's going to be a problem. I mean, he's got, at this time, several victims and several instances. So you first attack the statute of limitations because in Illinois, the limitations depend on whether or not there's corroboration,

the age of the offender, and the relationship that R. Kelly may have had with them, meaning was he in a position of authority or were they personally acquainted? So as a defense attorney, you're going to attack each specific event, each specific victim and date to try to knock out some of the claims. It's not going to be a slam dunk on a statute of limitations issue, but at least you can get rid of some of the offenses and some of the victims and reduce what you're facing in trial. Guys, when Brad and I are talking about statute of limitations, what that means is under our jurisprudence, under our constitution, after a certain period of time, years,

cases can no longer be prosecuted. They're deemed too old. The evidence is no longer as valid as it was before. That's the rationale. So you have a limit on how many years pass until you can no longer try the case. This is what we know. Singer R. Kelly spending another night behind bars. So far, he has not made bail to get out.

Prosecutors alleging he solicited underage girls for sex even while he was on trial for child porn. While he was on trial back in 2008, according to prosecutors, Kelly still found time to talk to fans, to sign autographs, to take photos, and meet an underage girl he invited to his home and, according to them, solicited for sex. Other accusers include a little girl who met Kelly at her 16th birthday party and a hairdresser who expected to braid the singer's hair only to find out he wanted a sex act instead. It goes on and on and on, but now he's really looking at a heap of trouble. Now this is the person you don't want to have a fender bender with and see Gloria Allred get out

of the car in front of you. Oh no, you do not. Listen to this. We have an appointment today with the New York City Police Department who have as asked to meet with Faith in furtherance of their investigation into potential victims of R. Kelly. We will offer our full and complete cooperation in their investigation. Prosecutors in Chicago and Atlanta are also seeking information from potential victims, and we plan to offer them our cooperation as well. Mr. Kelly, you may soon join the ranks of Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein. Just as they have been and are being held accountable for their actions, you also must be accountable. To Robin Walensky, author of Beautiful Life and CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter,

where you can find this and every other breaking news item in justice and criminal law Robin walensky how did Gloria Allred get involved well Gloria Allred is now representing one of the underage girls uh who has claims against R Kelly you know what Nancy when I been researching this case and covering it over time, what comes to my mind, though, about this, remember what your grandmother used to say to you? Where there's smoke, there's fire. Now, all of these are allegations, but you start building your case, and it goes back to 1998, and then, you know, there's stuff prior to that, and then it goes on and on and on. Where there's smoke smoke there's fire meanwhile gloria all red again you don't want to tangle with her involved in represent representing one of these

underage girls crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Faith is not the only alleged victim whom R. Kelly has attempted to intimidate into silence. In response to the allegations of his many alleged victims, as contained in the recent Lifetime documentary, Kelly's attorney has appeared to threaten a lawsuit against Lifetime. And according to news reports, someone associated with Kelly's team launched a Facebook page called, quote, surviving lies to allegedly discredit his accusers. Reports indicated that the page was, quote, swiftly taken down for violating Facebook's policy on bullying or sharing others' private contact information. News reports also claim that Mr. Kelly is threatening to sue everyone involved in the documentary. Mr. Kelly's attorney, Steven Greenberg, said the singer will, quote,

hopefully sue Lifetime in his first interview with ABC News since the release of Lifetime's Surviving R. Kelly. I say to Mr. Kelly and his attorney, be careful what you hope for. All of these attempts to intimidate and threaten our clients and others will not work. Mr. Kelly, your disgusting tactics will not prevent women who alleged they were victimized from telling their truth. That is attorney Gloria Allred, and I've got to tell you something. I've got a soft spot for her, and this is why. I had always heard of her, and I worked with her daughter, Lisa William at Court TV for many, many years. Fine, fine woman. And long story short, when I was out covering the Scott Peterson trial, and I was there in Redwood City for months and months and months,

I would get to the courthouse. Okay. I'd get there around six o'clock in the morning to start doing morning TV, stay for the whole day, do court TV and stay to do Larry King, which ended at that time at not at 10 o'clock at night. When I would finally leave the courthouse, I would notice that Gloria Allred was there when I got there at six. When I left at night, I remember her standing there in her fancy St. John suit, working two cell phones, standing at a stop sign. Working. Working. I'm telling you, she's got a work ethic like nobody else.

Gloria Allred. And when she gets a hold of your case, it's like a pit bull's got a hold of you. You've got to get pliers. You've got to get a utensil to get her jaw of your case. It's like a pit bull's got a hold of you. You've got to get pliers. You've got to get a utensil to get her jaw off your case. Joining me, Brad Micklin, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Vincent Hill, and Robin Walensky. So let me understand this, Robin Walensky. This guy, he's a music sensation. He's an icon.

Can't put together the bail money? Yes, quite incredible, isn't it? Here's a guy who wins three Grammys for his songs. He's writing songs for other famous artists. He's got all these videos. He's got all these homes. He's got all this fame. He has all this fortune. And oh, by the way, I can't come up with $100,000. It's actually a $250,000 bond for each of the four women. That's a million-dollar bond. So he's got to come up with $100,000 in cash. Kelly's lawyers asked for a lower bond amount, arguing that his finances are a mess

because he has just been dropped by a second by another record label but so far that hasn't happened the bond remains at one million dollars i want to outline exactly what the charges are to dr bethany marshall psychoanalyst out of beverly hills he is accused of basically operating compounds, homes, townhomes, condos, at least six of them, where he houses young girls. They start around age 16 or so or younger, and they live there for years. Everything they do, their food, what they wear is controlled. They are given cell phones. They can only dial R. Kelly or his henchpeople. They cannot come out of their rooms or go into the hall. They have to ask to go to

the restroom. And apparently there is a den mother of sorts that explains to these young girls how they are to accommodate R. Kelly's demands, what he wants them to do. And if that video was any indication of what he wants them to do, urinating in their mouth, I'm just very surprised it's taken so long, Dr. Bethany. How did it get this far, and what do you perceive of the acts that he is committing well okay Nancy you know that sex offenders on average offend for 17 years before they come to the attention of law enforcement or before they're incarcerated prosecuted so I'm not completely surprised by this look how long everything went on with Harvey Weinstein before he was prosecuted but Nancy we have to frame

our thinking appropriately about what R. Kelly is doing. This is not a school teacher in a classroom that has targeted a minor and is obsessed with that minor. This is a leader of a sex cult. That's what he fancies himself as being. This is a Warren Jeffs. This is a David Koresh. This is a John of God. This is somebody who has amassed wealth, properties, compounds, so he can bring as many women in as possible as a part of his harem. And then as with leaders of any cult, he systematically cuts them off from financial and social support. He prevents them from calling their families. He begins to deprive them of food, clothing, and autonomy, and slowly he brainwashes them over time.

So we're so fascinated by the sexual aspect of the sex cult that we forget that he is a run-of-the-mill cult leader, as any other cult leader would be again cutting off his victims from outside support he wants to be the sole supplier of everything in their lives and i think he believed that this would go on and on and on this idea of not being able to post bail i'm sure he has a lot of money and properties, but you have to pour a lot of money into an obsession like this, Nancy. He's supporting scores of women and paying off other women at the same time in their families. Brad Micklin, he's got another problem. With me, a veteran trial lawyer out of New Jersey jurisdiction, Brad Micklin. Brad, he owes nearly $200,000 of child support.

So his money problems don't stop with just his bail issue. Now, according to court documents, he owes almost $200,000 in unpaid child support. And catch this, the court ordered R. Kelly to make monthly payments of about $20,000 back in 2009. He didn't even show up at the hearing, according to the court documents. Now, to avoid being held in contempt, a judge ordered he pay the entire amount, $161,000, by March 6th. Of course, he didn't do it. And Greenberg, his defense lawyer, says he doesn't have to pay the child support before getting out of jail on this. I bet the court will disagree with that, Brad Micklin. I think the court's going to hold him until he pays the child support plus the bond. I agree, actually, with you, Nancy. I think

even if they haven't ruled that way now, I think the family court should be making some decisions about not only what happens when he gets released, but what happens when he does post the bail and comes to court. What happens to $100,000? Does it get returned to him? Or do we attach it and take it and pay it over to the child support, which I think is what ultimately will happen in this case. That's some good maneuvering right there. So he wouldn't have to pay both.

I don't know if the court will go for it, but it sure is a good theory. Joining me, Robin Walensky, Vincent Hill, Dr. Bethany Marshall, and Brad Micklin. Vincent, I noticed Atlanta jurisdiction has not prosecuted anything, and they allegedly know of about six compounds that R. Kelly has in metro Atlanta. So what does Cook County, Chicago have that Atlanta doesn't have? You know what, Nancy, that's an excellent question because I wondered the exact same thing and I want to expand on a little bit of these charges Nancy too. I read the indictment and I read where it said he choked women, he spat

on women. Listen, when I was a cop, I arrested people for that, for aggravated assault. So I don't know why there's not at least an aggravated assault charge thrown in here and maybe even out of Atlanta, out of Portland County or DeKalb County. Guys, we are talking about R. Kelly, the music superstar behind bars at this hour, trying desperately to make bond. Those parents are desperately pleading for their daughter to come home, claiming she's being held captive, but she says she's perfectly fine. and R. Kelly's attorney is swinging back. This morning, the family of a woman allegedly living with embattled singer R. Kelly speaking out, saying their daughter is being held against her will in Chicago. And he knows how to manipulate young girls and make them feel like that's all they have. 21-year-old Jocelyn Savage on several

occasions denying she's being held captive, even appearing without Kelly in this TMZ video from last summer. People are saying that, you know, I'm captive and a hostage. Well, obviously that's not true. I'm out here, you know, enjoying life and doing my own thing. I need to get to my daughter because I know she's been coerced. Kelly's attorney slamming the assertion Savage or any other woman is being forced to stay. Tweeting, relax America, today CPD visited R. Kelly at home and spoke to the two young ladies who live with him in private. Both told the police they are great, not hostages, not abused, not victims. Chicago PD confirming that welfare call, telling ABC News, the women

stated that they were not being held against their will and are both in good health and spirits. There was nothing out of the ordinary with the residents and the officers closed the call as unfounded. Kelly caught in a web of controversy. A number of women recently coming forward in the skating lifetime docuseries surviving R. Kelly. Can you describe the physical abuse? Kelly's defense team defiant in the face of allegations of controlling and abusive behavior. The man was not operating a harem or a sex cult or holding people hostage or anything like that. Now threatening legal action. For defamation because people shouldn't be able to do this to someone. But a different picture from Jocelyn Savage's parents desperate to reunite with their daughter. We just want to sit there and hold you

and make sure you're fine, make sure you're okay. A-list artists are now voicing their concern after that docuseries. Christina Aguilera throwing her support behind Lady Gaga's decision to pull her collaboration with R. Kelly from streaming services. Kelly's attorney, as you heard there, promising this legal battle is far from over. You're hearing our friend at ABC's GMA, that was correspondent Ariel Reshef, explaining in a nutshell what's going down right now. R. Kelly, the music superstar behind bars, trying to make Bond on serious felony counts of aggravated sex abuse. So far, he hasn't made Bond, but I predict that he will. You know, another issue, Robin Walensky, that Vincent Hill and I were discussing, the difference between Chicago and Atlanta prosecutions is something very, very critical, Robin. It is critical, Nancy, because see, in Chicago,

we're told that there are videos, there's DNA evidence, there's lots of stuff that they're going to produce at trial. Here in Atlanta, my understanding is that they don't have all of that. And my understanding is that the Savage parents, who you just heard there in the clip, they're very concerned about their daughter, Joycelyn, as they pronounced her name. And there's an interesting little nugget in that when that statement came out, where the daughter and the other women say, oh, yeah, we're fine, we're fine. There's a misspelling of Joycelyn's name in that document. So the parents do not even believe that the daughter was ever asked, did she ever write that she's fine. They don't even believe that it's her in her own words.

They believe it's the R. Kelly PR machine that's making statements on behalf of these women who are living in his home. But here in Atlanta, they do not have the mountain of evidence that they do have in Chicago. To Brad Micklin, New Jersey lawyer, trial veteran. Now, prosecutors say R. Kelly would spit on the victim, slap the victim, choke her, ejaculate on her. She actually saved a shirt from one of the incidents and turned it over to police who find a DNA match to R. Kelly. This is according to prosecutors, Brad. That's one of the issues when you look at this case. There's so many distractions from what the real facts and issues of this case are we had this cult enterprise he's being charged with aggravated criminal sexual

abuse which is a serious level felony but lesser included is criminal sexual abuse there's assault if any of these victims do have corroboration evidence or do testify credibly before jury, there are many other offenses that he can be convicted. We just keep looking to this aggravated criminal because the allegations are so egregious. But he's facing serious problems no matter what turns out to be the truth. We are talking about R. Kelly sitting behind bars right now. If he is convicted on all counts, R. Kelly could face up to 70 years behind bars. Arraignment has been scheduled for Feb. 28. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, California Psychoanalyst, how do you expect him to present in court? Oh, Nancy, he'll be calm, cool, and collected. You

know what I was reading this morning, if he was just staring at the floor, sociopaths are very charming and affable. They don't have a sense of wrongdoing. He doesn't think he hurt these victims. He thinks he owns them. And, you know, as far as Chicago Child Protective Services calling on one of the compounds and the girl said, hey, we're fine. Of course, they're going to say they're fine. They've been brainwashed by him. They're victims. He has made them believe that he is the sole provider of everything good in their life and that without him, they'd be nothing. He has engaged in paranoid discourse, turning them away from their families and away from the community. So a welfare check is never sufficient in a case like this. We're going to see a different R. Kelly in court than he shows

his victims. With his victims, he thinks he has power over them. In court, he's going to be nonchalant, arrogant, and act as if he did absolutely nothing wrong. A lot has been made about the entry of Michael Avenatti, attorney. Listen to what he has to say. What's different about the evidence that is now in the hand of the state's attorney versus back in the 90s? Well, the quality of the video evidence that we have provided and that we're also going to be providing, we're going to be providing some additional evidence here shortly, I think is far superior than what prosecutors had at their disposal back in 2008. We've provided the names and testimony of a number of witnesses. There's

documentary evidence. There's a mountain of evidence relating to these criminal acts by R. Kelly, and I don't think that he nor his enablers are going to be able to rig the system like they did in 2008. After 25 years, it's over. Does the statute of limitations come into play here? Because R. Kelly's attorney said a lot of this is based on a VHS tape. Are these old accusations? Well, no, they're not old accusations. And in fact, the Illinois legislature had the good foresight and thought back in 2017 to amend the statute

of limitations to basically make it unlimited. There was a prior amendment prior to that in 2010. I don't believe there's any statute of limitations problems. And I don't think there should be a statute of limitations as it relates to taking advantage of and sexually abusing and assaulting young girls. Do you have any information about whether or not Kelly's insular circle is starting to turn on him? There's no question that the people that have surrounded him for many years are starting to turn. And in fact, like I said, I represent two whistleblowers that had knowledge of R. Kelly, were close to him at one point in time. They've turned and I envision that a number of other individuals will turn in the coming weeks and days. You're hearing Michael Avenatti, attorney speaking to WGN there in Chicago. So to Brad

Micklin, you know, speaking of his entourage, his posse surrounding him, who basically, many people argue, enabled all of this, enabled like they did Harvey Weinstein and others, they better cooperate or they're looking at jail time as well, Brad Micklin. That can't be the case. I mean, if these allegations are true, whether one or all of them, certainly there are going to be people that acknowledge and facilitated this and cooperated. But when you listen to Adegnati, I mean, he's going so far beyond the scope of this case.

When he speaks of his clients, six clients. Only two of them are victims. Two of them are parents. The other two are whistleblowers. He's creating this circus, and it's distracting from the actual case. It has nothing to do with the 2008 trial, which he's now saying was rigged, and I'm sure he has no proof of that either. But he's just going on whatever he can to sensationalize these allegations and it's distracting from the simple case that we have four victims and we need to decide whether they are going to be prosecuting R. Kelly based on these allegations or not. Not going back to 2008,

not going back to his enterprise, his cult enterprise or these other people. We're not focusing on whether or not he's actually guilty of these offenses. We wait as justice unfolds. R. Kelly back in court, Feb 28. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.