Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mustached serial killer trades STEAK dinners for true confessions to brutal murders of unsuspecting women!

Episode Date: December 30, 2019

When Henry Lee Lucas tells law enforcement he has killed more than 600 people, his confession is readily accepted by some. But not everyone is convinced. Did Lucas create fake stories in exchange for favors from law enforcement and to bask in his own limelight?Joining Nancy Grace to discuss: Wendy Patrick: California Prosecutor, Author of "Red Flags"   Dr. Daniel Bober: Forensic Psychiatrist Steve David Lampley: Former Detective, Author “Outside Your Door”  Dr. Michelle Dupre: South Carolina Medical Examiner & Author of “Homicide Investigation Field Guide" Anne Emerson: WCIV ABC 4 Charleston reporter   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Henry Lee Lucas makes Charles Manson and Ted Bundy look like Tom Sawyer. I can't tell you how many times in court I would be prosecuting a homicide case and I would look over at the defendant. Of course, I never did that in front of a jury. In front of the jury, I would be prosecuting a homicide case, and I would look over at the defendant. Of course, I never did that in front of a jury. In front of the jury, I would never look over at the defendant or his fleet of lawyers, but when they weren't looking, I would look over at the defendant or defendants, and in many homicide cases, they would have a look in their eyes like I would be looking at a frog or a lizard, just something cold-blooded with no expression.

Henry Lee Lucas, because either he's the biggest hoaxster that ever lived, or he may be responsible for as many as 600 murders in 26 states. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Henry Lee Lucas says he has killed 100 women. Lucas claims to have killed over 150 women. Henry Lee Lucas killed at least 360 people during an eight-year spree that only ended when Texas authorities caught him last year.

One policeman said he makes Charles Manson sound like Tom Sawyer. Henry Lee Lucas murdered my sister, Lara Jean Doniz. Henry Lee Lucas murdered my mother, Joan Gilmore. Henry Lee Lucas killed my sister, Rita Salazar. The last person he killed meant no more to him than the last cigarette that he smoked. This is a bad guy. Everyone's perfect serial killer.

And yet, things just didn't add up. You can't kill 200 people and never leave a single shred of evidence. Nothing. Zero. I just grabbed her right on the neck and started choking her. You talk about being conned. He was playing them like a violin. Either they found the world's worst serial killer or it was the biggest hoax in American criminal justice history. Believe me, it is not a hoax.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. His victims meant no more to him than his last cigarette. Boy, that was well put. And when that guy just said his last murder victim meant less to him than his last cigarette that he flicked off to the sidewalk. I get it. I wish I had, I didn't know that, but I do. From looking into the eyes of so many killers. Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. You were just hearing part of an incredible series, Netflix series, The Confession Killer.

I want you to take a listen to this. Kate Rich. Kate was 82 years old, lived by herself. The family member told the sheriff that there was a suspect in her mind of Henry Lee Lucas, and he was living with Kate for a while. We did a lot of searching for the body. We found Kate's purse thrown over a bridge. So, you know, that pretty well told me that the body was probably still in the vicinity.

After about a month of working this case, I realized that we also got a 15-year-old girl missing. She went by Becky, but her name was Frida Lorraine Powell. She was Henry's girlfriend. Becky's missing. Kate's missing. Henry's the common denominator. He was a pretty good suspect.

Well, I've said many, many times there is no coincidence in criminal law. With me, an all-star panel to break it down, put it back together, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags. You can find her at wendypatrickphd.com. Dr. Daniel Bober, renowned forensic psychiatrist. He's on Instagram at Dr. Daniel Bober. Steve Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door. If that doesn't give you a chill down your spine, I don't know what does. Your website is awesome, stephenlampley.com. Dr. Michelle Dupree joining me, medical examiner out of South Carolina and author of a fantastic book that I appreciate, Homicide Investigation Field Guide. But right now, to WCIV ABC4 Charleston

reporter Ann Emerson. Ann, I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around Henry Lee Lucas, because either he's the biggest hoaxster that ever lived, or he may be responsible for as many as 600 murders in 26 states. I mean, this guy even murdered his own mother. Ann Emerson, WCIV, what can you tell me? You know, this is one of those cases that just is so chilling. And he really set the stage when he first announced this sort of killing spree that he was on. And that's what probably just caught my attention right off the bat. He waited until he was in a court. He waited until all the cameras were on. And then he says to the judges, he's about to face these crimes that we already knew about with, from his mom to Becky to Kate Ridge, he says, well, what are you going to do about the other hundred women I killed?

And I think that must have just, I mean, been such a shock to everybody in the community, everybody and anybody that was able to watch that. I just, I think that was the turning point where it was like, wait a minute, there's more to this. And here's the thing that really gets me that I really wanted to think about here was there's always something in the middle. There is truth somewhere in this middle. And that's probably what's making the families just unnerved now of what was true and what wasn't. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Imagine all these families that don't know what happened to their child or their sister, their aunt, their girlfriend. friend. Now, I noticed something, Ann Emerson, WCIV, that we've said his mother, his elderly renter, his landlord, his 15-year-old girlfriend, they're all women. Is that correct, Ann Emerson? That's right. And, you know, it sounds like he had a very abusive relationship with his mother. They talk about how she beat him severely to the point, and this is so interesting, they really kind of examine whether or not he was beaten so badly that he had severe brain damage in certain parts of his brain. Anne, Anne, Anne, Anne, please don't do that to me. Do not start blaming his mother. For all I know, she was a she-devil from hell. But he's the one that apparently has killed 600 people.

You can only blame the mother for so long, Ann Emerson. You're right. And you know what? That's what I think that's one of the most disturbing parts of this is everybody's had at some point a problem with a relationship. It's how you manage it. And you certainly don't go on a killing spree after all this. But there is something he literally says, and you can hear him talk about this, that he hated women. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We learned that Henry went to prison in 1960 for killing his mother, did some time in the pen and the psychiatric ward.

For a period of time, my theory was that he killed Becky and then Kate figured it out. And that's why he killed Kate. He'd come up to the sheriff's office with us, friendly enough, act like he was sincere, but there was nothing we could hold him on. He was pretty impressed that we'd already gathered a lot of information on him. He said, I guess since you found all that out about me, you know about that warrant

on me. I said, praise the Lord, in the back of my mind. I said, yeah, that's out of Florida. And I started shuffling and looking for it in my papers. He said, no, Michigan. I said, that's right, that's right. And I said, what was that for? He said, well, it's originally for stealing a car, but the warrant's for probation violation.

So I got the warrant number, and then when he come back, we put him in jail. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and you're hearing our friends over at Netflix and the Confession Killer. We are talking about, conceivably, the most prolific serial killer in the country, Henry Lee Lucas. You know, you hear of Bundy, you hear of Gacy, you hear of the Night Stalker, but this guy has them all beaten, claiming up to 600 murders, and right now, I believe him. Now, let's talk about what is a probation violation to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. Author Red Flags, Wendy, in a nutshell, explain it. Well, you're put on probation as opposed to going to prison. And probation means you have to abide

by terms and conditions set by the court. So it's interesting in many cases where maybe somebody doesn't commit a new crime. If you violate one of those terms and conditions, you can be jailed. You can be brought back to jail. You can be fined. Your probation can be extended. And in many cases, if it's bad enough, your probation can actually be revoked and you can go to prison, which is a much more serious penalty. So for somebody to have a warrant out for a probation revocation, not a new crime, but it potentially could be a new crime depending on what the person did.

Okay, Wendy Patrick, you sounded like you were reading straight out of the OCGA, the official criminal code of Georgia annotated. Let me just say it in regular people talks, it's not all of us went to law school. Bottom line, you get convicted on one thing and you can't even make it through probation. You get a sweet deal. You don't go to jail. You get probation and you can't even

behave long enough to get through your probation period. Say you get your shoplift, you get three years probation. What do you do? Run out and steal a car. That is a probation violation if you do it within those three years. That's what I'm talking about. Although, of course, Wendy, you're perfectly correct. And this guy is telling them, which blows your theory to smithereens, my dear Ann Emerson, WCIV ABC4, that, oh, maybe he had some type of a mental illness. Did you hear this sheriff?

He walked up. He was, quote, friendly, sincere, said, I guess he found out about my warrant. Oh, excuse me, H-E-double-L. I quit cursing when the twins were born. Oh, H-E-double-L. Yes. He knew exactly what he's doing. Coming up, talking about a probation warrant. Oh yeah. He was playing them like a fiddle. And what that means is he was arrested on one thing then he steals a car and he's got a probation violation warrant out on him and that's how it all starts to break down you know what's crazy steve lampley detective author outside your door criminals can be very charming this is a sheriff saying he was very friendly and sincere he's a freaking serial killer what do you mean friendly and sincere nancy that's correct so many criminals

are do have that personality and you have to be able to ignore that you have to be able to look past that facade to the real person, the real underlying person, the real underlying criminal, potential criminal, rather, that you're talking to. They are very charming, Ted Bundy. All of them are very charming. They can be very charming, but you have to look beyond that. You know, I'm so glad you said Ted Bundy, Steve Lampley, because we all know Ted Bundy, prolific serial killer.

But one thing a lot of people don't know about Ted Bundy is that he was a necrophiliac, which means he had a fascination with dead bodies and many of his victims. I hope everybody's sitting down. You may need to lay down for this. Bundy would get his female victims take them back to his home bathe their dead bodies apply makeup apply uh makeup and fix their hair and then have sex with their dead body or their body parts uh there are reports he had sex with one of his victims' severed head and kept it in the fireplace until his girlfriend was coming home.

Then he burned it so she wouldn't see it. That's certainly something to think about. But you're saying he's so charming. I'll let you stew on that, Steve Lampley. In the meantime, speaking of necrophilia, listen. He said, I'll have to show you where Becky is, but it's not a pretty sight. He said, if you'll dig right there, you'll find a pillowcase with part of her. The legs are out that-a-way, her head's this-a-way.

And then I brought him back to Denton PD to be interrogated. We kept arguing and cussing each other, and that was it when I hit her with a knife. Okay, and after that part happened uh do you recall what you did next yes i took her panties and her bra off and uh i had sexual intercourse it's one of those things that uh i guess it got to be a part of my life having an I had her in the court because she was dead. After she's dead and after you've had sex with her, what happened next? Well, after that, I cut her up in Little King of Peaches. You know, he told me I killed the only girl I've ever loved. At least it bothered him a little bit that he killed Becky. Well, apparently it didn't

because he continued a killing spree. He's up to possibly 600 women, parents, families, husbands, boyfriends, sisters, grieving what happened to their loved one. They still don't know. Was she a victim of Henry Lee Lucas? And just by the way, did you hear him, Ann Emerson, WCIV? He might as well have been saying, you know, I'll have a cheeseburger, lettuce and tomato. You know what? Hold me, oh. The way he was describing having sex with his girlfriend's dead body before dismembering her. And you know, the thing is, is I don't think there was any calculation. I mean, this was a reaction. It was an impulse. I think it was an example of someone who just went for it whenever he felt like it.

There was no filter. And this guy killed randomly and as much as he wanted to. And there was obviously a very sexual deviant part of it that that was where he waited until they were dead before he did what he did to the bodies. And then he just chopped them up. Ann, Ann, you can say it. You're on Crime Stories. butcher a 15-year-old girl and then have sex with her dead body and talks about it as calmly as if he's, you know, returning an overdue book to the library. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, renowned and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Dr. Dupree, question to

you. When, and I know you've seen it all, literally conducting thousands of autopsies. How do you identify a body when you have something like a severed leg? I mean, you don't have a fingerprint. You don't have teeth to do dental x-rays. What do you do, Dr. Dupree, especially a severed leg that's found out in a field and it's been there for years? Well, Nancy, hopefully we're able to get some DNA. We may not be able to get the normal DNA that we think of, the nuclear DNA, but there is something called mitochondrial DNA. So if we have an idea who the person might be, then we may be able to match it up with a female relative through the

mitochondrial DNA. There may also be some scene markers or something that may have been buried with that body part that may help us identify that person. Clothing, even a tattoo or a birthmark that may be on the leg, if that is still visible, that we may be able to help track back to who that person is. You know, Dr. Dupree, I'm a JD, not an MD, but having grilled so many medical examiners, usually in their office, because they're typically a state's witness, trying to figure out what the hey they're saying. When you're referring to nuclear versus mitochondrial DNA, nuclear, the, let me just say genes, for lack of a better word, of the mother and the father,

both, which gives you your individual DNA. Nobody else has your DNA. It's like a fingerprint. But mitochondrial is DNA that has origins strictly from your mom. And you can get that, for instance, from a hair without a root. A root is a nucleus. So question, when a severed leg, let's just say for the heck of it, Dr. Dupree has been out in the field for let's just say 20 years, where do you get the DNA? Nancy, we may be able to

get that from the bone marrow. There will be no tissue, of course, left, but there may be enough in the bone marrow to still get that mitochondrial DNA. That's the one thing about mitochondrial DNA is that lasts forever. Well, not truly forever, but for a very long time. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The judge asked him, do you understand that you're being charged with murder? I'm sitting there in open court,

you know, casually listening, and all of a sudden, Lucas just blurts out, well, judge, what are we going to do about these other 100 women I killed? From that point, it went to hell in the handbasket quick. Mr. Lucas, in a hearing, you said you killed over 100 women. Is that true? Wow. What a way to announce it in open court on another matter, and then you say, with a courtroom full of lawyers and reporters, the judge, the other inmates, what are you going to do about those other 100 women I killed? Henry Lee Lucas, most likely the most prolific serial killer in America, and Emerson WCIV ABC4.

So that's exactly what you were saying. And by by the way you were hearing from our friends over at netflix on the confession killer and he had a flare did he not i mean the timing the timing of making that announcement what does it say it says that he he knew how to make an entrance for sure i mean he opened up this this world i mean if i could not have written a lead-in better than that. There's no way. And to have that kind of hook on a whole community that is trying to grapple with all of these missing women, and it could be your loved one, you're hearing for the first time, well, what about the other hundred women? Immediately people think, oh my God, do you remember that case back when, you know, three years ago, two years ago, that string of murders down this highway, you know, you immediately start thinking, oh my gosh, he is going to give us everything. And so you, from a, I would think from a law enforcement

perspective, then that opens up all of this, this new work. But then you also just have this guy who wants to talk, and he really wants to talk. Explain to me, Dr. Daniel Bober, the forensic psychiatrist guy is joining me out of the Florida jurisdiction. You can find him on Instagram, Dr. Daniel Bober. Dr. Bober, explain to me this mindset of a serial killer. Let me just give an example. You know what? Oprah, explain to me this mindset of a serial killer. Let me just give an example. You know what? When I walk through Central Park and I see a little rabbit cross my path,

my impulse is not to go chase it down and tear its neck out with my teeth. My impulse is to say, look, John David and Lucy, look at the bunny. Okay? So there's a difference in the thinking of a predator like Henry Lee Lucas and a normal person as we use the word normal. Nancy, this is a guy who's intoxicated by attention. He's doing all this to basically hold the victim's families as an emotional hostage. He wants as much fame, as much glory. He's a narcissist. He's a psychopath. And yes, there are differences in the way that psychopaths process the world. I know you don't want to hear this, but a lot of times they have abuse. They have neglect. Of course, that doesn't excuse their behavior or they have absent mother figures.

I mean, there are some. Why is it always the mother with you, Bober? Why do you never say anything about the father? It's always the mother. It's always the mother. It's always the mother with you. The relationship between a mother and a child is something that's very sacred and there's nothing like it, as I'm sure you very well know. You know it, Bobber. But, you know, even Ted Bundy at the end of his life was confessing to murderers that he had no connection to just for more attention, for more fame, for more, you know, it got him off to know that all these people were sort of at the edge of their seat, waiting for him to tell people the authorities where the bodies were. So this is very similar. You know what, I hate Ted Bundy. And we don't say the H word in our home. I hate him so much, because he ruined so many lives. And I've spoken with some of his victims that managed to live. And the way they describe him,

it was charming sometimes, but the look in his eyes, one victim told me it was like the devil, the actual devil was behind his eyes. I want to follow up on something Dr. Daniel Bober, renowned forensic psychiatrist, just said. Listen. Elvis Presley was supposed to be the biggest shot, but I think I even beat Elvis Presley.

And I think I even beat, what's his name, Adolf Hitler. Seemed like I was going to beat him. Because it seemed like every time they would bring a murder case in, I would accept it, no matter what it was. The Henry Lee Lucas Roadshow was in full swing. And Lucas, who had lived all his life as a bum, was basking in his... I had everything I wanted, everything possible that a man could want. I had. I had money I didn't have before. I had a colored television I didn't have before. I had cable TV, and I didn't have that before. I had a colored television I didn't have before. I had cable TV and I didn't have that

before. I had all kinds of food, even stacks of cigarettes and cartons in my house. That's coming from nothing. Wow. He certainly has bragging rights to nearly 600 murders. That's from a 93 TV program, Henry Lee Lucas Confessions of a Serial Killer, and John Woodvine. You know what? This guy is an enigma to so many people. He sounds so dashing. He sounds so charming and debonair. But the reality is that's not what killers are.

They're all the same. And I'm sure Ann Emerson, WCIV, and Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, are going to disagree with me. But I see it in black and white. Serial killers are the devil. Think about it. A 15-year-old girl, his quote girlfriend, he's a grown man with a 15-year-old girlfriend that he murders, that he rapes after she's dead. Then he dismembers her body. That's what a serial killer is. He's comparing himself to Elvis for Pete's sake. But let's talk about the reality. To you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, in TV, on the air, in the media, killers, criminals are very often glorified.

I don't understand that. Maybe it's because I know the reality of criminals, of killers. I mean, Wendy, you've been on a murder scene, right? Oh, absolutely, Nancy. And, you know, you mentioned looking into the eyes of a murderer in court. Well, I do the same thing when the jury is not there. And when you look into the eyes of the psychopath, particularly after they've recounted their crime in detail, they don't just look sort of matter of fact. Sometimes they look excited, proud, almost basking in the glory and the attention that they're receiving, as I think several other guests now have mentioned. So then you go to the crime scene, as you're saying, and you can't believe it's the same guy that's dressed up in court just wowing the jury with the articulation sometimes, because you don't have—some very intelligent people commit some of these crimes.

And we all remember just the kind of celebrity status that Richard Ramirez, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson—remember all the women that were writing and wanting to marry these men. These are some of the reasons people want to talk about the crimes they've committed, especially a guy like this, that went from bum to celebrity. How? By killing and then boasting about killing and then at least arguably boasting about even killing people that maybe he didn't. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, a renowned South Carolina medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Dr. Dupree, let's get real about murder and a murder scene. They are horrible.

You go to a murder scene, it smells. It smells of decay. It smells of blood. I can't really describe that smell of human blood that coagulates and gets sticky and it's all over everything and there's hair stuck in it. It's something you'll never forget once you smell it, once you see it, once you're in that room or in that open field, once you see that first homicide victim, it's not glamorous. It's awful. And it has stuck with me for the rest of my life, Dr. Michelle Dupree. Nancy, you're right. You will never forget that. There's nothing like the smell of blood.

It's that, whether it's a rust or whatever kind of smell it is, you don't forget it. There's just nothing like it. One thing, though, most murder scenes have many similarities, but yet they're all very, very different. And so when we walk through a crime scene, we're looking for a couple of things. We're kind of looking to see if it's organized or disorganized. A murder scene, it's a murder. But when we try to determine if it's organized or disorganized, that will scene, it's a murder. But when we try to determine if it's organized or disorganized, that will tell us something about the killer. And that's one clue that

we actually can have that'll do something for us. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. First impression was Lucas was just a dirt ball. I was horrified by the smell. He was one-eyed and his other eye dripped. He had three, maybe four teeth. He was a pitiful looking gentleman, really. Smelled bad, a dirt ball, missing teeth.

How the heck did this guy charm anybody? I mean, when you look back at some serial killers, some people, not me of course, think they're attractive like Bundy. They function in our society normally, seemingly like BTK, buy and torture, kill. Dennis Rader was a dog catcher, which told me a lot about him right there. Had a wife and children, was a deacon at his church. This guy, how did he get access to women, much less hundreds of them? He smelled. He had a roving eye, literally. Three or four teeth. What, did they feel sorry for him,

and then he attacked them? You're hearing from our friends over at Netflix saying the confession killer about potentially the most prolific serial killer in U.S. history. And here's the big question. If he didn't kill all the victims, then who did? Victims' families now demanding new investigations into 600 murders. Lucas admitted to straight out to Ann Emerson, WCIV ABC4, cops coaxing him into confession in exchange for milkshakes and national coverage. I mean, he's talking about everything he has. Does he not understand that authorities are playing him like a fiddle, Ann Emerson, to get more information from him?

Well, absolutely. I mean, I think there's a couple of things going on. And back to that point of who would let somebody like this in. He talked about how he looks so pathetic. He'd come to a door, and he would open the door, and he would say, can I get a glass of water? And he'd go, he looks so pathetic. He'd come to a door and he would open the door and and they would say he would say, can I get a glass of water? And he goes, that was their mistake. They would let me in the front door. That sort of pathetic nature that he he played on that as well. He knew that he looked pathetic and he that's why people trusted him. These women trusted him, he said. Now, as far as what happened with the law

enforcement, you know, this was innovative back then. They had an investigative task force brought in from all over the country, 26 states where they wanted to find answers for families. They were desperate to find answers. And this guy was willing to not only give them answers, draw pictures of these women. He had a whole notebook full of pictures. They would send these pictures all over the country. I mean, this was an orchestrated event, and it was getting fed by this need to find answers for people who had been missing loved ones for years. Now, but the problem here is, is that at the same time, we've got this feeding frenzy on serial killer fascination happening at the same time, we've got this feeding frenzy on serial killer fascination

happening at the same time. The idea of a serial killer is a new phenomenon, supposedly. This is like all of a sudden people are learning what a serial killer is, and there is this morbid fascination that we're also feeding. So it's like the perfect storm. It's the perfect storm for someone like this to basically get away with murder or confess to a bunch of ones that he never did. Well, here's the kicker. And this is not about politics. You know how I hate talking about politics. I don't like Republicans and I don't like Democrats. I don't like Greens. I don't like any of them because I think they're all lying. But I can tell you this, George W. Bush commuted his death sentence. Shocker. Yes. Oh, yes, he did. Bush commuted his sentence, his death sentence when he was a Texas governor, because he did not believe he

had committed a murder that he had admitted to. Right now, families all over the country are begging for cases to be reopened with the thought that this guy, Henry Lee Lucas, is the killer. How many people did he kill? I know Marla Sharp, 26, was killed in her Provo apartment while her roommates were out. She's absolutely beautiful. A Utah college student murdered. And there are so many more. Their family's begging. Did you hear what Ann just said, Dr. Bober? How he would approach people at their door, maybe this girl, this Utah college student, and say, may I have a glass of water? I mean, it's hard to turn down somebody who just wants a glass of water, Bober. Yeah, Nancy, it's very similar to what Bundy did when he was walking around on college campuses with a splint and holding books in his hands.

Can you just help me with these books and just open the other door of the car for me. I mean, it's part of the psychopathic mentality, which is exploiting people's vulnerabilities because people by nature are good and they want to help. And, you know, you use that against them to get what you want. Guys, we are talking about a serial killer, Henry Lee Lucas. And it's amazing to me that while he is behind bars, he walks around freely, practically lives off strawberry milkshakes, and is treated more like an assistant, a trustee, than a serial killer. What is his exact murder count? We don't know. Evidence that he points to including a bag of bones.

Okay, Dr. Bober, I need to shrink again really quickly. He had a bag of bones. Okay, Dr. Boeber, I need to shrink again really quickly. He had a bag of bones. Well, again, you know, many killers will keep trophies of their victims. But with this guy, it's really hard to know which are the actual murders and which is just sort of braggadocio. I want to go back to Ann Emerson, WCIV. Ann, what is a realistic tally of how many murders Henry Lee Lucas is responsible for? And what is the resistance of reopening cases? I don't understand it. I mean, how hard is it to

reopen a case and try to get a DNA match with all the revolutionary new DNA technology, Anne? You know, and they're going to push so hard for this. I think that there are some communities that and law enforcement communities that are going to be more open to it because it's just so obvious that there was a mistake here. It could be up to 100. He never he was this. This guy would never even give an a real a real number of women he killed in certain areas. He was vague. And so we're looking at, you know, he threw out that hundred women number at the very top. I would, I think that they're looking somewhere around that range because yes, he did, you know, as soon as you discounted this guy for not being a killer, he would point you to a deer stand where there were bones, where there was credibility there. We just don't know how far he took this. What we know right now is that certain cases are being reopened, but very few listen.

It all started when Marla's cousin met Kara Porter with the Utah Cold Case Coalition. I gave her what information I had and just asked her if she could take a second look at it, that I would appreciate it, that I hadOULD APPRECIATE IT, THAT I HAD NEVER THOUGHT THAT HENRY LUCAS COMMITTED THE MURDER. THREE MONTHS LATER, VALERIE COLEGAN'S PHONE RANG. SHE SAID, WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT HE DID IT EITHER. HEARER SAYS THEY FOUND NEW EVIDENCE THAT PROVES LUCAS DIDN'T DO IT. THIS WEEK, THE PROVO POLICE DEPARTMENT SAYS THEY HAVE REOPENED MARLA'S CASE. THIS MONSTER IS OUT THERE DOING WHO KNOWS WHAT. EACH DAY, LEAH SAYS SHE THINKS ABOUT HER SIS THEY HAVE REOPENED MARLA'S CASE. This monster is out there doing who knows what.

Each day, Leah says she thinks about her sister and what happened on that tragic day. Now, she says she hopes to find the truth, one she already thought she had. 41 years later, it's going to be really, really difficult.

Kara Porter with the Utah Cold Case Coalition tells me that she believes Henry Lee Lucas could have wrongly confessed to more than 90 murders. That's why the coalition believes the murder was actually a murder.

The case is being investigated and the police say they are investigating the murder. The police say they are investigating the murder. The police say they are investigating the murder. The police say they are difficult. Kara Porter with the Utah Cold Case Coalition tells me that she believes Henry Lee Lucas could have wrongly confessed to more than 90 murders. That's why the coalition has decided to start a Facebook page and a website to help other families find out who actually killed their loved ones. You're hearing our friends at Fox 13 News. That's Utah reporter Sydney Glenn. Can you imagine losing your loved one to murder and never

having an answer? The hell that would be. We wait as justice unfolds, and to Henry Lee Lucas, rot in hell. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.