Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mysterious unsolved of the disappearance of Maura Murray

Episode Date: September 22, 2017

Where nursing student Maura Murray went and what happened to the 21-year-old has been a mystery since a minor car crash on a winding road in New Hampshire’s White Mountains in February 2004. Maura's story has been the subject of a popular podcast, but now it gets the full investigative treatment with an Oxygen docuseries. Nancy Grace discusses the case with investigative journalist Maggie Freleng and former U.S. Marshall Art Roderick, the primary investigators in "The Disappearance of Maura Murray." Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. February 2004, Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. Join the search as an investigative reporter uncovers new evidence, interrogates new witnesses, and traces down new leads in this riveting new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray. Tomorrow, 8.15, 7.15 Central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. Sunday will mark 10 years since anyone has seen or heard anything from a woman named Maura Murray. Now the college student crashed her car on Route 112 in North Haverhill,

140 miles north of the UMass Amherst campus. Maura had vanished when police arrived. There was what appeared to be indications that she may have been running away, but her father and investigators think there is much more to her disappearance. My initial thought is still my what I think and that's somebody locally grabbed. On a mission to find his missing daughter Maura, Fred Murray went to Concord to see Governor Lynch. Frustrated with the state police investigation into her disappearance, Mr. Murray is asking the governor to release all her case files and he'd like the FBI

to get involved in the investigation. She had her world in front of her, a 21-year-old gorgeous nursing student from Hanson, Massachusetts. She goes out in her car. She has a fender bender. She gets out of the car, and she vanishes. Maura Murray has never been seen alive again. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. Joining me right now to break it down and put it back together again and try to get answers about Maura Murray. The search is ongoing. Former U.S. Marshal Art Roderick and investigative journalist Maggie Freeling. Guys, thank you so much for being with us. First of all, I want you to hear what the dad says. What do you think happened to Maura? I think somebody grabbed her. Maybe somebody hearing it in a scanner or something like that.

I think it's a Monday night. There's nothing really going on. It's not a tourist type of deal. I think a local dirtbag grabbed her. And I know she would have called me that Monday night if she were able. Then the accident happens, and that changes everything. Whatever plan she had is out the window. Whatever she was trying to do is now she's got a whole new set of circumstances.

It's got to be frustrating that the same possibilities that you were dealing with the Wednesday afterwards are still all in play. Exactly the same thing. 100% the same thing. There's no question about whether I'm going to look for her. This is my kid. My kid wants me to look for her. I'm going to look for my kid. I don't know what happened to her. I don't have Mara. I don't have a body. I have to think in these terms, but the case certainly isn't over. To Maggie Freeling, again, thank you and Art for being with us. Take me back to the evening, the day that Maura Murray disappeared. What happened?

So from what we know happened, because we do have receipts from a liquor store and ATM footage with timestamps, Maura dropped off some clothing at a nursing friend's dorm, headed to the ATM, withdrew all of the money from her bank account, which was around $200. And then she headed to the liquor store, picked up liquor, hopped in her car and drove up towards New Hampshire. We don't know where she was going, but the fender bender happened in Haverhill. And that is the last time anybody saw her.

Bus driver Butch Atwood was coming home from work at around 7.27 p.m. and says he had a conversation with a young woman who appeared shaken up right near his house in a car accident. He asked her if she wanted him to call the police, and he says she said no, she called AAA. However, he knew that was not true because even today you do not get any sort of cell phone reception in that area. So Butch, the bus driver, went home and he called 911. To Art Roderick, former U.S. Marshal, Art, isn't it true that something got hinky with the 911 call? Was it diverted? What happened? Yeah, when Butch Atwood got back to his house, which was only about 100 yards from the accident location, he called 911. And according to him, the call was either busy and it got diverted to a different county dispatcher,

and they forwarded the call back to the Graffin County, which was in the area where the original 911 call should have gone. That 911 dispatcher from Graffin County actually ended up calling back Butch Atwood. And that's kind of like how this whole call came together. This girl, Maura Murray, who disappears on Feb. 9 after a car crash on Route 112, Haverhill, New Hampshire. I say out in the middle of nowhere, but I grew up in an area just like that, very, very rural. Now, Maura Murray was a nursing student at University of Massachusetts Amherst. That afternoon, she left campus. But before she left, she emailed her professors and her supervisor, writing she was going to take a week off due to a death in her

family. Now, this is the weird part. Nobody in her family has ever been able to confirm that any death occurred. Not even recently. There was no death in her family. Okay, we know that now. Here's the problem. This so often happens. Police initially treated her case as a missing persons case, thinking she wanted to disappear. And that speculation was all because she had made preparations to travel. And there seemed to be no evidence of foul play, but many people, including myself, are convinced that Maura Murray was kidnapped that day, and I believe she's dead. It's very hard for me to believe that Maura Murray somehow created a whole new life, Maggie Freeling, investigative journalist, somewhere else and has never contacted her family again.

That's hard for me to believe, Maggie. Yeah, and you know, I think that's also kind of the perspective that I was able to put into this. I mean, I was a 21 year old girl who did go to UMass and I found so many similarities between Maura and myself. And while this, you know, this whole theory came from James runner, you know, while this tandem driver, she escaped, started a new life, seems really sexy and he can make it compelling um you know having been in her situation i think it is also very unlikely that that is something that she did wait a minute who were you saying made it sexy james renner the author his whole book uh came out, True Crime Addict, and his whole theory in the book is that she, you know, was driving up there with a tandem driver, a friend or somebody who helped her escape and start a new life. When you're saying she started a whole new life based on this book by James Renner, True Crime Addict by James Renner.

True Crime Addict, How I Lost Myself in the Mysterious Disappearance of Maura Murray. Maggie, you disagree with Renner's portrayal of what happened to Maura Murray. What exactly is he claiming happened? So, you know, I wouldn't say i necessarily disagree i just don't see it being the most likely possibility in this day and age this wasn't like the 80s where there was no you know internet trades no cell phones i mean i so james renner is claiming that mara when she left UMass, had a plan to drive away with a tandem driver, a friend, a family member, somebody that was going to help her escape and start a new life. Escape from what?

Yes, she had once used a stolen credit card to buy some food. She had a fender bender with her dad's car. There's nothing to escape this girl had gone to west point she was about to start a nursing career she had a high school sweetheart billy roush uh stationed at fort seal in oklahoma that she was going to marry she's gorgeous she's young she's healthy escape what so i'm not sure what where Renner is headed with this but the fact that she stopped and made some purchases and was planning to take a week off which she told everybody that I mean I don't think the crash was part of the plan and if she wanted to disappear

she could have done that and and back to his theory, Maggie Freeling, who was this, quote, in tandem driver? In other words, somebody that's driving along with her or was going to meet her somewhere. It's not anybody in her family. Right. And I think there are many things to what you just said. I mean, she did have a fender bender. Yes. You know, before this one, she also crashed her dad's car right before she disappeared. Yes. She stole from Fort Knox. Renner also claims that her relationship with her boyfriend, Bill Rausch, was not great.

Well, neither was my relationship with my high school boyfriend. That's why, thank you, Lord, I didn't marry him. As wonderful as he seemed when I was 16. So the fact that that wasn't working out, you know, you can make a childish, immature decision, Art Roderick, but you really think she would have kept up the farce of a disappearance for all this time and cut herself off from her parents and family? Yeah. I mean, Nancy, you've been in the law enforcement judicial area for criminal justice process for a lot of years. It's almost impossible, I think, in this day and age for a 21-year-old girl to just drop off the face of the earth intentionally. And I think Renner's theory is based on a lot of false premises because what actually occurred was he never really got to speak to a

lot of people. The family refused to talk to him. You know, a lot of her friends didn't talk to him. So I think he's based theory on a lot of false premises and rumor and innuendo. I like you and Maggie and I also agree that there's probably she she was grabbed in this, some foul play involved in her disappearance. I have no doubt in my mind, and I'm not trashing Renner, because his book brought a lot of attention to the Mara Murray case, and I'm grateful for that. And a lot of his research has really helped me. Nancy, I have a clip I'd like to play of Maggie interviewing Tim and Lance.

We've interviewed them before. They're the podcasters, the missing Mara Murray podcasters. And this is a clip about the timeline of what happened that night. And it is a clip from the disappearance of Mara Murray. How did you guys get interested in the case? Just being interested in true crime overall, and Maura's case always comes up. Once you start reading about it, it just starts like unlayering and unfolding, and just before you know it, you're like down the rabbit hole.

The mystery within the mystery is why was she heading up there in the first place? Do you guys have an opinion on why you think she was heading up there? I can't really say I do. We tried really hard to not have theories. Tell me a little bit about the crash. Well, based on the police transcripts and the call log, a neighbor calls at 727. Butch, a bus driver, pulls up, who's also a neighbor, and talks to her.

She said she already called AAA, which is a lie because there's no cell phone service up there, so she could not have gotten a call. And he knew that immediately. Yeah. And I think that is like the most fascinating thing, at least for me, is that this accident happens. There were eyes on the accident. It is in the White Mountains in New Hampshire, but there's a house there, there's a house here. Someone pulls up and talks to her. There's phone calls made to 911, and right at this moment where apparently everybody turned around

or wasn't looking, she's gone. And that window of opportunity is mind-blowing to me. It's baffling. How long and that window of opportunity is like mind-blowing to me it's baffling how long is that window you can probably narrow it down to about seven minutes figuring out why Maura vanished sometime during those seven minutes when the neighbors turned away and didn't see anything is crucial although Maura disappeared in a remote part of New Hampshire, the road she crashed on was well-traveled. Which brings me to the theory of foul play.

Let's take a look at the players we know of. It's the last week of National Make-A-Wheel Month at LegalZoom. There's still time to take control of your family's assets and their future. Sure, there's a lot to think about, but that's why LegalZoom created an estate planning kit to help you get going. You get an estate plan checklist, an e-book, and other information to help you decide what to do. And you can always get advice from LegalZoom's nationwide network of independent lawyers without being billed by the hour. Since LegalZoom is not a law firm, hurry to LegalZoom.com now for your free estate planning kit. No obligation, just great resources to help you protect what you care about, your family. For

special savings, be sure to enter code Nancy, N-A-N-C-Y at checkout. LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom.com. All right, where I left off, let me think. Oh, yes. Foul play. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine that, Alan Duke? That's what I'm focusing on,

foul play. And I can tell you something, this girl didn't just disappear. She didn't go off on her own for soul searching or to find herself or to start a new life. N-O, she's dead. Okay, I can tell you that right now. From my studio and my Sirius XM 132 show, she's dead. Okay, I can tell you that right now from my studio and my Sirius XM 132 show. She's dead. Okay, so now that I've established that in my mind, can we get to work and try to figure out what happened? Let's start with the crash. Okay, Art Roderick, former U.S. Marshal, Maggie Freeling, investigative journalist, and, of course, the Duke, Alan Duke, joining me along with my friend here in the studio, Jackie. Art Roderick, tell me about this crash.

Because Art, I don't care who wrote what in their book, she did not plan for a crash that day, all right? That threw the monkey wrench in the works. So tell me about the crash. I mean, when you look at the crash scene, you had mentioned it's a rural area. It is kind of a rural area, but there are about 20 houses within a half mile radius of where this accident occurred. The accident occurred on Route 112. It's like at the beginning of the Kankamangus Highway in New Hampshire. It's a two-lane highway, and there was a sharp, almost 90-degree turn

that she couldn't negotiate, and she kind of clipped the inside elbow of that turn. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Art, Art, Art. Yes. I love you, man, but I'm drinking from a fire hydrant here. Too much at once. Too much at once. Hold on.

I know. There is a lot. Let me just break it down for a minute because it's actually for Alan Duke because he just can't process that quickly. So, yeah. Okay. So, let's just hold on. Poor guy. He endures so much.

So, we've got Mara Murray. She's going along the Cacamangus Highway there in New Hampshire. First of all, is it rural? Yes. Is it heavily wooded? Heavily wooded, yes. Is there a body of water nearby, by chance? There's a pond sort of a mile from, it's called French Pond.

It's about a mile from where the accident occurred. Are you saying French or fresh? French. French. As in the country. As in the country, France. All right. Okay.

So she's driving along. What are the weather conditions? Just curious. Do we know? It's cold. It's February. There was about two and a half feet of snow on the ground, but the roads were clear. Two and a half? Did you say two and a half feet? like feet of snow on the ground, but the roads were clear and dry.

Did you say two and a half feet? Well, about two feet of snow on the sides of the roads. The roads were pretty clear. I mean, New Hampshire. Okay, this is very significant to me because, in my mind, this greatly reduces the likelihood that somebody stopped and engaged in a conversation with her and fought her. I'm not putting one toe outside the car. It also, to me, minimizes also, it changes her actions and reactions

because it's freezing cold outside. But again, she did not have cell service. So let's factor that in. No cell service. Hold on. Hold on. in no cell service hold on hold on um along the stretch where she had her collision were there any red lights any businesses any anything or is it out in the middle of forest no there there there were there was a business right at the corner of that sharp turn

there was several houses in the area about what What was the business? In a half-mile radius, there were several houses in the area. Oh, okay. That is important to me. Several houses within a half a mile. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There's actually one caller.

The closest neighbor was only about 40 feet, 50 feet from the accident scene. Is that Butch Atwood? No, that would have been the Westmans. Butch Atwood lived about 100 yards from the accident scene. Straight down the road, you could actually see Butch Atwood's residence from the accident scene. But there was a home 40 feet away from the crash? Nancy, this is what's really incredible. When you go up there, Art and I both expected it to be super rural. Nobody was around. But when you get to the crash site,

it is a neighborhood. There are houses there. And yes, the Westman's house was basically on top of the crash site. And just maybe 100 yards down the road are three other houses. So there were many, many eyes on this scene. Guys, just hold on. Let me process this. I was,

you know, joking around with Alan Duke for a minute, but this is completely different than what I imagined. This changes everything. It absolutely changes everything because if she had, when I say crash, it was basically a fender bender, I think. Yes, yes, the car could have driven out of there. That was my next question. Hold on, hold on. I'm taking notes as fast as I can. So her car could have driven out of there. Is that what you said? Yes said yes yes was it off the road is there some reason

she wouldn't just keep going and well what we found is we actually uh as part of the show we actually went out and purchased the 1996 saturn the same model that she had at this particular time we took it to a garage mechanic, did several tests on it, and we found that when that model of that Saturn stalls out, which more than likely happened, it stalled out when it kind of had that fender bender, you have to take the key out of the ignition before you can put it back in to restart the vehicle. I don't think she knew that, because when they downloaded the black box inside the vehicle to do some tests on it,

they found that after the airbags deployed, there was seven clicks of ignition, and the vehicle wouldn't start. So we think that she didn't realize that she had to take the key out and put it back in to restart the vehicle. Wow. Hold on. So that was revealed with the black box? That was revealed with the black box inside the car, but also revealed by a car mechanic.

He took this particular model of vehicle to. He said, you have to remove the key out of the ignition to actually start the vehicle back up again. Well, wasn't it her car? Wouldn't she have known that if it was her car? Well, you would think that, but I was kind of shocked because I didn't realize that was the issue with the vehicle. I mean, how many times did the car stall out?

It was an automatic transmission in that particular Saturn, and she probably never had it stalled out before. Now, the car did have some mechanical issues to it. Her father was getting ready to buy her a newer used vehicle so that she could get back and forth to her school, but the car was not in good running condition. But she probably just didn't know that you just take the key out, put it back in. Well, I got to tell you something.

I've had my Toyota, I had my, for I guess 12 years, what I got when I was 16. I had so many problems with it. And it was not the Toyota's fault, you know. Okay. I didn't know you had to put oil in it. Nobody told me that. I just knew about gas. So, needless to say, the fact that I had the car for 13 years does say that Toyota's a pretty good car.

No matter what I did to it. But when it wouldn't crank, the first thing i would just instinctively do is take the key out pray and curse and carry on and then try to crank it back up again i mean to me that would just be natural instinct to take the key out and try it again and try it again but it's really interesting does the black box can it tell you the key was never taken out of the ignition? It can tell you the amount of times that it was attempted to be turned over. And when you look at the black box, the black box indicated that there was a slight jar in the vehicle, and then 0.2 seconds later, the airbags deployed. It shows that in the black box. Now, after the airbags deployed, there was an attempt to turn the vehicle over.

There were seven clicks after the airbags deployed on the ignition itself. You know, Maggie Freeling, investigative journalist, I'm just at this moment feeling like I'm right there in that car that Saturn with her and it's two feet of snow outside. The airbags have deployed over a simple fender bender and she's trying seven times to restart the vehicle and she realizes I'm stuck. Right? is I'm stuck, right? You know, another thing you're telling me, Maggie, I had imagined something completely different, and that is why I never went to a jury with a case or took a major plea unless I went to the scene

because that changes everything. I can't tell you how many cases I won because the other side didn't get off their lazy rear ends and go out on the weekend or whenever and look at the crime scene. Take it in. Go to the witnesses' homes. Find them. Talk to them.

Question them. Put it all together. But seeing the scene makes all the difference. See, I thought she was out on a curvy, windy road in the snow with nobody around and some freaky dudes coming up asking if she needed help. That's what I imagined in my head. That's not what it is at all. It's a neighborhood. Okay, I understand the car thing. Let me just ask you one last thing about the car, Maggie. What did she hit? We believe she hit a snowbank. And the car sort of bounced off of the snowbank. And there actually has been a lot of question and we still

can't really get to the bottom of whether the car was in the snowbank or not in the snowbank, but it seemed like the car hit the snowbank. Well, certainly there are photos of where her car was, right? Yeah, there is a series of photographs that were taken by the officer at the scene that responded, but we have not seen those. There's a lot of issues going on in this particular case where the Attorney General's office in New Hampshire has a lot of information to us,

but is also withholding a lot of information in case they can actually come up with a suspect. Well, you know, my gut, my knee-jerk reaction is, they should release the information. Why are they doing that? But, you know, my gut, my knee-jerk reaction is, they should release the information. Why are they doing that? But, you know, that's not always correct. Because a lot of times, false confessions have been ruled out because the liar didn't know the facts of the murder or the case.

And confessions or corroboration can be ruled in because these people know things that have not been released to the media so i get it okay so we're in a neighborhood she has a fender bender probably into the snow bank and but it can't be that much of a snow bank because you know you're in the middle of a neighborhood and she tries to recrank the car she may or may not know you've got to remove the key from the ignition to make it work. We've learned that from the black box. And then she vanishes. She completely vanishes. Listen to this. This coming Sunday will mark 10 years since anyone has seen or heard anything from a THIS COMING SUNDAY WILL MARK 10 YEARS SINCE ANYONE HAS SEEN OR HEARD ANYTHING FROM A WOMAN NAMED MORA MURRAY. THE COLLEGE STUDENT CRASHED HER CAR ON ROUTE 112 IN NORTH HABOR, 140 MILES NORTH OF THE UMASS AMHERST CAMPUS THAT SHE HAD LEFT JUST A FEW HOURS EARLIER.

MORA HAD VANISHED WHEN POLICE ARRIVED. THERE WAS WHAT APPEARED TO BE INDICATIONS THAT SHE MAY HAVE BEEN RUNNING AWAY. BUT HER FATHER AND INVESTIGATORS THINK THERE IS MUCH MORE TO HER DISAPPEARANCE. what appeared to be indications that she may have been running away but her father and investigators think there is much more to her disappearance my initial thought is still my what I think and that's somebody locally grabbed her twelve years ago today more vanished from this very spot on a cold dark night she has not been seen or heard from since. Is it safe to call us armchair detectives with a camera and a microphone? It's something that starts as a hobby and gradually grows into something more obsessive.

He said, do you think that's blood? And people said, uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that it's dangerous to do something like what we're doing right now, but there are some questionable characters involved who may be listening at some point. Hopefully. What's going on right now? Well, we're in Lincoln, New Hampshire. We're at the Roadway Inn. Someone knew we were going to be in Lincoln. There is no way that someone that knows that their daughter is missing,

knows why they're missing, or had anything to do with it, would spend 12 years looking for their daughter, would put this whole thing on for 12 years, taking over their lives. I know it took over mine. On a mission to find his missing daughter Maura, Fred Murray went to Concord to see Governor Lynch. Frustrated with the state police investigation into her disappearance, Mr. Murray is asking the governor to release all her case files, and he'd like the FBI to get involved in the investigation. She was our buddy, and we want her back.

There's no way in the hot place that I can stop looking for my daughter, so I am never going to stop. In seven minutes, seemingly, Maura Murray disappears. Question to you. Maggie Freeling, investigative journalist with me. Art Roderick, former U.S. Marshal with me, who have researched and investigated this case exhaustively. Maggie, what about the people that lived right around their little fender bender?

Didn't they see anything? It's really bizarre. I mean, there must have been, unless somebody saw something that they don't want to say, there must have been a moment where everybody who was looking at the scene turned around. And when they were all investigated, or when all of the neighbors were spoken to,

they did say, you know, Butch Atwood, he got out of his bus and went into the house to call 911. I mean, he turned around for that moment. I mean, there must have been a moment where everybody turned around and didn't see what happened. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. That everybody at one moment. You know what? What's funny?

Alan Duke. I've investigated so many cases where there are a ton of people. But for instance, let's just say it's a shooting. But the moment I would say, well, okay, he's got the gun in his hand it's pointed then what happened I don't know Miss Grace I looked out the window right then I don't know what happened I just heard a pop and nobody happens to be looking at that precise moment which i find really not only hard to believe but statistically highly improbable on the other hand what time of the day did this go down aren't roderick yeah the the first 911 call came at 7 27 p.m in february so it's dark obviously i mean that area is very

dark so people are in their homes they're not outside right outside sitting on the front porch So it's dark, obviously. I mean, that area is very dark. So people are in their homes. They're not outside sitting on the front porch. They're inside probably having supper, getting their children ready for school, watching TV. They don't even know what's going down outside, you know, 100 feet from their home. So that means to me not many people saw it. How many 911 calls were there, Art? There was two 911 calls. The first one came in at 727. Then you have Butch Atwood's 911 call

probably coming in around the same time. Now the dispatch log shows that the Sergeant Smith from the Haverhill PD called out at 746. Now, we talked to him. When he arrived at the scene, according to the dispatch log at 746, there was nobody at the scene. So she was already gone at 746. Okay, so Atwood's call. Wait a minute. Atwood's call is at what time?

722? We're not exactly 100% sure because we haven't been able to confirm that. What we have is the Grafton County line. You just gave me a time. Okay, what time was that one? The first time we have is 727, and that's from the Westmans calling Grafton County 911. And the cop gets there at what time? At 746 is when he calls out. But when we interviewed the police officer, he said when he got there, he immediately got out of the vehicle

to make sure nobody was hurt. And he called out, he 911 at 727 had eyes on Maura or somebody that was driving that vehicle at that particular time. What time was that? At 727. Okay, now hold on, wait. This name keeps popping up, Butch Atwood. Maggie Freeling, who is Butch Atwood, and what, Maggie, does he have to do with this scenario? Butch Atwood is the bus driver that drove by, and he is, according to what we've found, the only person to have seen Maura that night, or spoken to Maura that night.

I'm sorry. Butch Atwood is the only person to have spoken to Maura that night. I'm sorry. Butch Atwood is the only person to have spoken to Maura. Butch was then the last person to have seen Maura. Huh. And he was a county school bus driver. So he had a yellow school bus coming back from dropping a bunch of kids off from a ski trip at that particular time, and he's headed home. He sees the accident. There's sort of a little bit of a discrepancy in some of the statements that he's given. Unfortunately, he passed away in 2009. So, you know, we're unable to talk to him, but he was a known individual to law enforcement in that he worked for the county. He was a friend of the particular police officer that showed up at the scene, and he was asked by that police officer to help him search the area.

Huh. What do we know about him? Not too much. Interesting individual. Yeah. His family originally came from Massachusetts. They were sort of part-time police officers down there. Sort of a strange guy, a bit of a hoarder from what we understand.

Moved away from this area. a bit of a hoarder from what we understand. Moved away from this area. Did you say a hoarder? From New Hampshire to Virginia. Okay, wait a minute, because that's a horse lycopathy right there. Right, right. How old is he? How old is he? He was older, middle-aged, 60s maybe.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, 60, hoarder. what were you about to say maggie yeah from some records we have read by private investigators that interviewed right at you know in 2006 um they had interviewed some friends of the atwoods and apparently friends never went into the house because it was just so, you couldn't get into the house. It was just so passive. Was he married? Yes. So he had his common law wife? Yeah.

She lived there with him at the time Maura went missing? Yes. Children? I don't think so. No never had children right so did she actually the the wife lived there with him are we sure they were cohabitating at the time yes but was he a hoarder at that time yeah they she when when 9-1- 911 dispatcher called back Butch Atwood's house, they actually spoke to the wife first. Is she still alive?

She's still alive, yes. So the hoarding was in that home, so there would have been an opportunity, if you wanted to hide something in a hoarder's home, who would ever find it? Yeah, I mean, obviously, from a law enforcement perspective, you always look at the last person that had contact with somebody that goes missing. My understanding is, talking to the New Hampshire State Police, the major crimes unit that has the case right now, they have, for all intents and purposes, couldn't find anything to connect him with her disappearance.

Did they search his home? They haven't told me that they have searched his home, but I don't know the answer to that. There's some stuff they've been pretty open to us about and given us a lot of information. Other things they haven't. They have looked at everybody that has had any type of contact with Maura whatsoever, either on a friendly basis, a quick meeting. The law enforcement has done a lot.

They have basically treated this case probably within a three to four time frame after she went missing, three to four day time frame. The behavioral PD more or less just turned this over to the state police. So they quasi-investch i would say more than at that time yeah okay why do you say yeah i mean i'm not saying he's guilty i'm just saying he's the last one to see her and you're right that's where it starts right there was a couple polygraphs given there was a there was a couple grand juries that were initiated by the New Hampshire State Police to bring everybody in to get testimony on record. And they have told me, and they've told me and Maggie both, that they do not have any person of interest in this particular case. to me that this is one of these instances where everybody that has had contact with

Maura in the past or around that time frame that she went missing has been investigated and cleared to a certain degree. Wow. What do we know about the witness, Karen McNamara. Now, she's apparently the key witness to the biggest conspiracy theory that John Smith has been pushing for many,

many years. And that's with the blessing, apparently, of the father, Fred Murray. What do we know about that? I kind of think it's far-fetched. They're trying to blame the Haverhill police. Yeah. I mean, this is,

so we look into every single one of these theories thoroughly, and, you know, we don't want to give too much away, but we look into it, and we find Karen to be a very credible witness. And Art personally, you know, as law enforcement, doesn't love eyewitness testimony, but both of us, when we sat down and spoke to her, I mean, you know, she truly believes, and we don't think she's making up what she saw.

Wow. What exactly is she saying she saw? What Karen says she saw, yeah, you can say it. Yeah, I mean, what she says, we actually mapped out the timing. Maggie and I actually drove the same route she drove. We drove with her and had her tell us exactly what she was doing that particular evening and the route she took to go home from Woodsville to Lincoln, New Hampshire, which would have taken her along that stretch of highway when Maura had her accident.

When she saw a cruiser come by her twice with the lights going, lights and siren, responding to the accident scene, she took a more direct route, and, you know, some of those roads up there were pretty bad, potholed, and it was very difficult to do any type of high-speed driving on those roads. So she actually saw the cruiser come by her once, take a different route, come up and come by her again as it responded. The whole question is she's saying that the vehicle was an SUV. When she got to the scene, the SUV was pointing nose to nose with Maura's vehicle, and she pulled over up near Butch Atwood's house, which is, you know, about 100 yards away,

but she did not see anybody at the scene at all. She didn't see the driver of the vehicle that was in the accident, nor did she see a police officer at the scene. That is basically her testimony in a nutshell. She stayed for a couple minutes and then went home, drove home. And as soon as she could get cell phone service, she actually called her house to let them know she was coming home. We have that specific time. And we did all the distances, the time measurement of where she could have been

and at what time she might have passed the accident scene. And she saw what she saw. Wow. It's kind of hard to take the whole thing in. So are you telling me that you believe her? Yes. You find her to be very credible. Yeah.

Okay, let's take that to its next step. What do you make of allegations? Haverhill police were responsible for Maura Murray's death, and they've been covering it up for 12 years. Now, isn't it true that Karen McNamara, who you seem to believe, could have seen the police SUV, but that police are not part of a cover-up. I mean, it's just hard for me to, first of all, I don't think many people are smart enough to create a conspiracy, much less keep it quiet for 12 years. What about that, Art?

I'm with you 100%. I mean, anybody that's been in the law enforcement, criminal justice field knows that's almost impossible to do, number one. Number two, we do believe Karen McNamara. We go through this whole issue on the show. And I mean, even when you sit down with Fred, he doesn't believe the police were involved in Maura's disappearance, I think when you look at it and you listen to the explanation from law enforcement, I mean, really what they were responding to was an abandoned vehicle

in a minor motor vehicle accident. And this happens every day in this country. This is not an unusual call. You know, I worked as a local police officer on Cape Cod for three or four years. And I can tell you, I came across incidences like this, where you report of a 911 call, an accident, you arrive at the scene, it's minor, there's no personal injury, there's very minor property damage to the car, and no driver around. So you take the information down and just move on to your next call. And that's basically what happened here.

The search for Maura Murray and for the truth goes on. With me is Maggie Freeling, investigative journalist, and Art Roderick, former U.S. Marshal. Join the CrimeCon Cold Case Club. Work alongside experts and fellow crime sleuths. Help uncover new leads and theories in cold cases that they adopt. The very first case is focusing on the mysterious disappearance of this gorgeous young nursing student, Maura Murray. You're free to join thanks to Oxygen. You can sign up now and find out more at club.crimecon.com.

Club, C-L-U-B, dot crimecon, C-R-I-M-E-C-O-N, dot com. Club.crimecon.com. Our search for the truth is not ending here. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Do you find yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a group of people just like you to talk motives and alibis with? If so, join the CrimeCon Cold Case Club and work alongside experts and fellow crime sleuths to help uncover new leads and theories in the cold cases they adopt. Their first cold case focuses on the mysterious disappearance of nursing student Mara Murray in 2004, and it's free to join thanks to Oxygen.

Sign up now or find more info at club.crimecon.com. That's club.crimecon.com. This is an iHeart Podcast.