Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mystery Murder of Steamy Romance Novelist’s Hubby-Chef

Episode Date: May 6, 2020

Chef Dan Brophy is gunned down in the culinary school where he teaches. His romance novelist wife says she's lost her best friend, but now she's charged with his murder. Nancy Compton Brophy, now 70, is asking a judge to release her due to COVID-19 risks. Why was Dan Brophy killed?With Nancy Grace today: Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills; follow on Instagram at DrBethanyMarshall Steven Lampley - Former Detective - Author “Outside Your Door” Dr. Kris Sperry - Retired Chief Medical Examiner State of Georgia Ray Caputo Lead News Anchor for Orlando's Morning News, 96.5 WDBO Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. At a time when we are all pulling together to fight coronavirus, COVID-19, I have something for you. An all-free e-chapter on coronavirus crimes and how to fight them. Don't be a coronavirus crime victim. From door-to-door sales of fake cures and tests, vaccines. That's not real. To robocalls that are trying to scam you. To fake ads.

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Goodbye, friend. Keep the faith. How does a renowned and beloved chef end up murdered? How does that happen? Who was his enemy? Another chef? A displeased employee? Who? I'm Nancy Grace.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Who would murder an Oregon chef? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Take a listen now to our friends. This is the Oregon Culinary Institute. I would say in the last 35 years, I've had about 150 vegetable gardens. Death by pineapple chutney, peach chutney, rhubarb ketchup. I feel if people work with more ingredients, they have a fuller understanding of what to do with them. That's our secret, that's a very secret process. One cuisine for the rest of my life, I would opt for Thai cuisine, I think.

I would put some more, the flavor was great on that, it needed something beside the rice and the lettuce compete and the peer pressure that comes along from being in a kitchen. I think we have done a kind of a fun job of translating into the classroom. This is going to look more professional if you've got that diameter of chicken breast. His big loves were food, cooking, his wife, the romance novelist. So how does he end up dead? With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again. Joining me, Daryl Cohen, former felony prosecutor, now defense attorney. Joining me out of inner city Atlanta, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst to the stars.

Joining us from Beverly Hills. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Stephen Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door at stephenlampley.com. The former medical examiner for the state of Georgia, Dr. Chris Sperry. But right now, to Ray Caputo, lead news anchor, Orlando's Morning News, WDBO. Let's start at the beginning. Explain to me how a beloved chef, in fact, I'm looking at him right now, and he is posing with a rooster.

I think, yes, that's a rooster. He's got on a hat that says chef, and he's holding the rooster. I think it's a prize rooster. I think it's a prize rooster as if it's a baby looking right at the camera. I mean, this guy didn't have an enemy in the world. So how does Dan Brophy, Ray Caputo, end up shot dead? Well, Nancy, Dan Brophy, by all accounts, is a good guy. He was the head instructor at the Oregon Culinary Institute for over a decade. You know, he had a lot of young people. He was a member of the community,

helped people, helped fed the homeless. So he goes... Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Hold on. You got me drinking out of the fire, too much, too fast. Did you say the head instructor at the Culinary Institute? Did you say that? He was the head instructor. Okay, right. So that's a yes. Second question. Did you say he was involved in feeding the homeless? With his father, yeah. And that was among the many things that he did. Pause, Ray. I'm going to circle back to Ray Cabuto, the lead news anchor, Morning News, WDBO. Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, inner city Atlanta, now defense attorney.

Daryl, out of all the cases you prosecuted and defended, did you ever notice or wonder why do the good people have to be murdered? No good deed goes unpunished. I've never understood it, but I think good people make a better target than bad people. Uh-oh. Now, you do have your JD, right? Not your PhD in psychiatry. Let me just clarify that, Daryl Cohen. Attorney and counselor at law. Oh, you take the counselor part as in like Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst.

Okay. Didn't know that about you, Daryl Cohen. Okay, just pulling your leg, but I've noticed it's not a statistic. This is anecdotal. But I remember in court thinking, why do all the good people get murdered and the bad people, the evil people run free, unfettered, Daryl? Nancy, because the good people don't expect something bad to happen to them. The bad people are always looking straight up, down, and around to see what is going to happen to them and who is going to happen to them. The good people do the right thing, and when the wrong thing happens, it's totally unexpected, so they're not there to

defend themselves mentally or physically. That's a conundrum to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining me, psychoanalyst out of LA. And I wrestled with it for so long as a felony prosecutor. And I would look over at the defendant and think, why? Not that it was my burden to prove motive, of course, but I would wonder why. Bethany, I don't know what this means, but after about five years prosecuting nothing but hardcore felonies, for the rest of the decade plus that I prosecuted, I didn't wonder why, as an inner question, because I couldn't figure it out. But I do have that lingering issue. Here's Dan Brophy, loving husband, his family, his wife,

who is a very famous romance novelist, food, cooking, his students. That was his world. I mean, he's posing with a rooster, Bethany. I know. I know. You know, according to my forensic idol, Reed Malloy, I'll quote him, that all crimes boil down, the motivation for all crimes boil down to envy and jealousy. Envy, you have a better life. You have something I want. You're great. You know what's interesting? I just tried to fit in very quickly two or three cases that I prosecuted into your equation, and I immediately thought of a carjack. Yes, the perp wanted the car. It was just as simple as that.

So he murdered a young man to get it. Then a debt over $10. One of the $10. I'm just thinking back over all the cases I prosecuted, the murders. It maybe isn't that simple. Okay, Ray Caputo, I just let us down a rabbit hole. Sorry about that. Back to you.

Ray Caputo, WDBO. let us down a rabbit hole sorry about that back to you ray caputo wdbo what more can you tell me about dan brophy other than um he loved food he loved cuisine he loved his students uh-oh another thought another thought to stephen lampley uh former detective author outside your door remember tara grinstead the high school, I think, history teacher, beauty queen, getting her master's degree? Turns out her killer went unsolved for years, was one of her previous students. That opens up a gamut of potential suspects.

Steve? Nancy, it does, but as all murder murder investigations go we're not going to begin there yeah we're going to look at everybody we're going to every when the murder happens steve that oh yes nancy certainly a whole pool of potential suspects but yes of course you always start with those closest to the victim ray cap Caputo, back to this guy. Fed the homeless, beloved chef. What more can you tell me about Dan Brophy? Married, happily married to a romance novelist. What more do we know about him?

Well, I mean, yeah, he was married for 27 years. His neighbors said he just seemed like a really good guy. He had a home garden. He liked to forage for mushrooms. He was really good with marine biology and nature and stuff. And he just seemed like a really good with marine biology and nature and stuff. And, you know, he did seem like a really content guy. I know one of his students who had said that she had saw him just before he passed away. He was delivering mushrooms or some food to a restaurant she was in. And she said he just looked content, Nancy. He looked like he was just a happy

guy going about his life. And that really struck me because it seemed like it wasn't his time to go. Take a listen to our friends at KOIN. This is how most people remember Daniel Brophy, a teacher, a chef, someone who cared about treating animals humanely. Dominique Boza says she wouldn't have graduated the Oregon Culinary Institute without his help. He was really tough. He was really hard. He would call out some of the flaws that you had, so you can correct them. There was a big flood that came down here and it buried a bunch of things. She shared with us this video of Brophy in his element. Knowledge, knowledge beyond belief. You think you come into culinary school like wide-eyed with like this dream of being a chef. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Daniel Brophy, a murder victim, a beloved chef, husband. His whole world was the Culinary Institute and his students. Take a listen to the murder victim in his own words. So I'm always looking to learn new ingredients, new techniques, new cuisines, and that keeps it interesting for me. You can see how it needs a little something. Yeah. I mean, you walk by, you see that on a plate, it's like, oh, man.

It's like crap. I didn't even know they had ferrets in the house. I just love the culture that's been created here, having the autonomy to write a class without having to have approval. Give it a focal point, put some color, put some shape on there. It's utilization, it's opportunity, but if it looks like crap, nobody's going to hold it back. And even if it tastes good, people eat with their eyes. You know, so they see one go by, it's like, okay, lucky we didn't order that.

You are hearing him speak in his own words about his love for food. It was an art to him. So back to you, Ray Caputo, describe for me the injuries, how he was found dead. Well, he went, Dan Brophy went to work on a Saturday morning. He taught weekend classes as well. And his students noticed that he's not around. They go looking for him and they find him shot. He shot twice, not once in the back and I believe once in the chest.

And, you know, it's just a terrible thing. You know, one of the students called 911. They had the 911 call and it was just a really terrible sight, something that nobody expects to walk into on a Saturday morning when you're about to be learning in a learning environment. You know, that's very, very curious because statistically on an early Saturday morning to Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, early Saturday morning is typically not when you get a murder. That's statistically off right there. It's not random. This tells me it is not random. Every time someone is murdered, almost every time when it's random, it's late at night, they've been drinking, they were emboldened, they're brazen.

But this on a Saturday morning, I think we're going to find is someone that was after him and wanted to see him dead. You know, I heard one of those students say that he would point out your flaws if you did something wrong. And that's just part of the teaching process. I mean, Daryl, in law school, we have the Socratic method where you stand up in front of 200 people and you brief a case, identify the issue, give the court's reasoning and application. And if you're wrong, you'll be questioned without stop by the professor and made to look like a complete idiot. I mean, I totally never raised my hand in law school. What? Nancy, Dean Quarles, same law school you and I went to separate times called on the criminal procedure. And it was about sneaking up on someone. And I told him exactly what I should do.

And he looked at me and said, you're not a very good criminal. It's obvious to me you have never snuck up on someone. You'd totally be humiliated in law school by the professors. I remember I made one bad grade, and it was in my first year, 1L. And they posted the grades by number and by several of our grades the professor wrote good luck in your law school career so they just let me say I was so spurred you know by that humiliation I fought my way up to law review because I was convinced I was going to flunk out after that note that that kind of empathetic note from my professor. I guess same thing here. Did you hear that, Bethany Marshall?

One of the students said, oh yeah, he'd point out if you had a flaw or you did something wrong. Yeah, I heard it, Nancy, but that is the role of a professor is to teach, to criticize, to point out flaws. I think unfortunately in this current litigious climate, students feel entitled to a good grade, and they feel that they can buy their education. And I have several friends who are professors. One is the head of social work at USC, and she says that if she gives a student a bad grade, they will get an attorney to write her a letter. That's how entitled some of the students are. Wait, where does she teach? Head of the School of Social Work at USC. Okay, guys, let me get out of USC Social Work School and back into this murder case. Rick Caputo, WDBO, question to you.

So he's found in an early morning, I assume, at work at the Culinary Institute by one of the students. And where was he? Was he slumped over a table? Was he in the kitchen? Did somebody break in? Was there a forced entry? I mean, I got a lot of questions for you. Tell me some more circumstances surrounding the discovery of his body. Yeah, well, we know that he disarmed the security system. So this murder happened just before that, but he was found in the back. Wait, wait, just before what? He disarmed the alarm system and the murder occurred when? After that.

Just after that, yes. Yeah, so he was found in the back. It wasn't immediately evident that he had been shot because I believe another instructor had come in just after him and didn't hear any shots. But it was students, you know, maybe 15, 20 minutes after them that ended up finding his body. Now, police looked around. And here's the weird part, Nancy. It didn't seem like a robbery because his wallet was still on him, his cell phone, his keys. There was no struggle and there was no forced entry.

So, and needless to say that after this happened, you know, this is a learning environment. These students are on edge now because their professor, instructors just found dead, and nobody knows who did it. My initial thought would be who, what student found him? Do you know? I don't know particularly but it was it was ones who were having classes ones who had should have been there so it wasn't anything out of the ordinary in terms of who found interesting you know i want to analyze what we just heard uh to steve lampley detective author of outside your door so he cuts off the alarm system and between the time he cuts off the alarm system that morning at the culinary institute in his area and the time the first student comes in there he has been murdered that's pretty good

timing in and out just like in a movie lampley when i see somebody that obviously knew his routine at least that's my opinion they knew when he was going to be there they knew his his basic routine so it's and i agree with the other gentleman this was not a random killing i agree you and daryl cohen both agree on that and speaking of his love for culinary institute and food and cooking and being innovative take a listen now to U. And news of the grieving wife. Dan was one of the few people I've ever known exactly what he wanted in life and loved to live. Yeah, this is just the life. Students, colleagues and loved ones gathered at the Oregon Culinary Institute tonight to remember beloved chef Dan Brophy. He was shot and killed over the weekend. Police still don't know who

killed him. Chef Dan Brophy ran Southwest Portland's Oregon Culinary Institute. Students arriving for class the morning of June 2nd found Brophy dead inside the school. His killer nowhere to be found. Later that day, Nancy Crampton Brophy appeared at a vigil. He was a person who did what he loved. He loved teaching. He loved mushrooms. He loved his family. He loved next in tides. Nancy Crampton Brophy posted on her Facebook page the next day a message announcing the sad news of her husband's murder and added, I'm struggling to make sense of everything right now. You are hearing sound from a vigil for the beloved chef, instructor, husband, Dan Brophy. Between the time he opens up the Culinary Institute, turns off the alarm system,

and before the first student can come in, he has been shot dead. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, the murder of Daniel Brophy sends shockwaves through a small Oregon community. The case remains a mystery. Very curious to Dr. Chris Sperry, former chief medical examiner for the entire state of Georgia. We've tried many a case together. Dr. Sperry when you come on to a scene like that what's the first thing you or your medical examiner investigators and staff would do to secure the scene and what would you look for? Well we would securing the scene is exactly it blocking off and closing access to the place, the place of the building where the body was found. And then we start working our way into the body,

into where the body is located, looking for evidence, evidence of a struggle, overturned chairs, you know, that showing to try to see if there'd been any real fight between the perpetrator and the victim, and at the same time looking for things like bullet cartridge casings. Chris, your satellite is going down just a little bit. Jack, see if you can reconnect him. But I did hear what he said, part of it. Ray Caputo, lead anchor, WDBO Morning News. Was there a scene?

Let's follow up on what Dr. Chris Berry said. Was there any evidence of a struggle? You said there was no forced entry, nothing turned over, nothing at all? No, and that was the curious part. There wasn't a sign of a struggle. It was just two gunshots and the body slumped over, but nothing broken. Again, personal items, personal effects still there. The police combed through this crime scene.

They couldn't find a motive just yet. That's very interesting because to you, Daryl Cohen, you would look to see if anything has been stolen, if anything has been moved around at the scene. With a female victim, you typically look to see if there have been a sex attack or a theft. With a male, you typically look to see if there has been any theft. Would you agree with that? 1000%. Not 100, not 200, but 1000. I'm glad to hear that. So Daryl and I agree on this. So where does that leave me, Dr. Bethany Marshall? Well, I think where it leads us is that this was not a crime of opportunity. This is somebody, as the panel pointed out, the perpetrator knew his schedule, was intimately acquainted with his schedule.

Not only just that he was a chef and that he worked at the Culinary Institute, but that he had a class. This is not somebody who wanted to rob him. This is not somebody who, you know, came and confronted him on something and then a scuffle ensued. This is somebody who had the class schedule. Who would have had this class schedule? Family members? Students? Was there another disgruntled employee there?

Or a lover? Bethany, I can't believe you haven't brought up sadomasochism yet what what are you okay bethany because uh i'm worried it's usually the first thing you say it's clearly sadomasochistic so i can't believe you haven't brought up the idea that he had a lover at the culinary institute maybe a Maybe a younger woman, but actually, don't waste your time or your breath because he didn't. I mean, you see him cuddled up right here with a rooster, and apparently the rooster had something to do with eggs.

But where does that lead me? I don't have a sex attack. He doesn't have a lover, no girlfriend. Police combed through all of his texts, his emails, the works, nothing. And typically, when you have a spouse do a killing, you find it at home or in the case of Jennifer Dulos, you never find the body or it's hidden away in some remote area because they want to get it away from the home. But speaking of the wife, pretty famous romance novelist, take a listen to our friends at KGW8. Nancy has written several novels and in 2011 also

wrote an essay called How to Murder Your Husband. In it, she writes, I find it is easier to wish people dead than to actually kill them. I don't want to worry about blood and brains splattered on my walls. And really, I'm not good at remembering lies. But the thing I know about murder is that every one of us has it in him or her when pushed far enough. Huh. Well, I mean, I guess we can all agree with that. Nobody wants blood and brains spattered on their walls. But I've never really thought to say it's easier to wish people dead rather than actually do it. And I know that if pushed far enough, anyone can murder. Is that true, Dr. Bethany? Do you believe that's true? If anyone is pushed far enough,

they could commit murder. And murder is not self-defense. So let's not confuse if you are under attack or your child or a third party is about to be murdered and you kill someone to save someone else. That's not murder. Self-defense is a complete defense under the law and it's not accident. So do you believe that, Bethany? Because I find it really hard to believe that I would commit a murder. I never even think about killing anybody. I don't think about killing anybody. I don't even believe in crime of passion, to be honest with you. That's a legal term. I think all murders are contemplated either consciously or unconsciously for a great amount of time. Very few things happen by random or by chance. They are fantasized about. They're

glorified. This woman is talking about brains and guts being splattered against her wall. It sounds like somebody who is beginning to fantasize about murder. If you're writing a murder mystery, of course you're going to write about that. I thought she was a romance novel novelist for the most part, but she did write this essay. I mean, Bethany, excuse me, does this mean you have not read the Haley Dean murder mysteries? Because I totally offed somebody by pushing them into the water at Gator World. However. So does that mean, you know, although my husband, Jackie, didn't want to put a toe at Gatorland or Gator World, whichever it was, when he took the children to Disney, he said, hey, I read your book.

I'm not getting near that boardwalk. Forget about it. But long story short, that said, hey, I read your book. I'm not getting near that boardwalk. Forget about it. But long story short, that doesn't mean I would actually do it. Nancy, one of my supervisors was a protege of a protege of Freud's. She was from Austria, died at age 103 about five years ago. And she used to always say, hey, there's a difference between impulse and action. We can think whatever we want. That's not a problem. It's when you act out on it and you do it.

You asked me the question, do all of us have in us the capacity for murder? No, absolutely not, because it takes an enormous amount of strength, planning, willfulness, foresight, hatred. So much goes in to killing a person. It is not an easy thing to do. It doesn't just happen randomly or by chance. Now, I have patients come to my office all the time and say, oh, I want to tell you something, but I hope you won't report me and is this confidential and blah, blah, blah.

I always know where they're going, especially if they're talking about their spouse. And I'll say, I know you had the thought the other day that you wish your spouse was dead how did you know because everybody thinks that at some point I never think that I never think I wish David was dead I kid around about it but I reach the top shelf in the kitchen I mean let's just start with that but okay here's the reality you've got this romance novelist. She's writing murder essays as well. She ventures into writing murder mysteries. And, of course, she's the wife. Take a listen to our friends at KOIN-TV. I think it's a surprise to everybody in the neighborhood.

As an author, she's been writing steamy romance novels filled with murderer troubles in the marriage. They never knew it. Fairly quiet, ordinary people from what I could observe, cookies at Christmas. novels filled with murderer troubles in the marriage they never knew it fairly quiet ordinary people from what i could observe cookies at christmas while she may have been tight-lipped with neighbors nancy expressed her feelings on facebook shortly after daniel's death calling him her best friend in the months since her husband beloved chef daniel brophy was killed mcdonald says nancy who's now in custody, kept busy preparing to move.

I never put that together. I mean, even after she said I'm a suspect, I just thought, oh yeah, well, they always suspect the opposite, the spouse. I would hope that she's innocent and that she's just handling it well. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about the untimely death, the murder of a beloved chef. I want you to take a listen now to our friends at KGW8.

Students found Chef Daniel Brophy clinging to life inside the Oregon Culinary Institute. Brophy had been shot. Paramedics tried to save him, but he didn't make it. I remember hearing about this back in June and, you know, feeling, you know, how could this happen to somebody who's just one of the best people. Former students like Scott Van Schoten are reeling after learning his wife, Nancy Crampton Brophy, is now charged with his murder. The wife, after all of her steamy romance novels, after going on Facebook talking about he's her best friend, well, it turns out that in this case, those thoughts turned into actions. Now, police have a theory. Listen to KATU2, Joe Douglas. Investigators say Nancy Brophy

lied about where she was the morning her husband's body was found here at the Oregon Culinary Institute. They also say she lied about life insurance. This is the article Portland police say Nancy Brophy wrote and posted in 2011 entitled How to Murder Your Husband. In newly unsealed court documents, detectives say they discovered Daniel and Nancy shared a joint iTunes account and that someone on it had recently bookmarked an article titled 10 Ways to Cover Up a Murder.

Okay, Ray Caputo, you didn't tell me the essay she wrote was titled, How to Murder Your Husband. So now the author of all these steamy romance novels and the essay, How to Murder Your Husband, is charged with murdering her husband. What is the evidence? And what, wait, what was the MO? How did she get in? What do we know, Ray Caputo? Her motivation was apparently over a million dollars in insurance money. Now she was paying the premiums on this insurance policy, we learned. Well, her family home with her husband, Dan, like they weren't paying their mortgage. So they were kind of month to month.

And she apparently had fantasies about a better life, just going out and being able to write her romance novels and travel the world. I mean, she was really nice. She could already write her romance novels. She was writing her romance novels. I mean, I don't understand that, Dr. Bethany Marshall. So just to get the money so she could travel? You know, such a common motivation for murder is somebody wanting to have this idealized life, when in fact, they already have a great life in front of them.

Think of Tot Mom. You know, she wanted an idealized life with lovers, so she got rid of her child, but she already had the best life ever. Nancy, I see this in my practice all the time. It doesn't necessarily lead to homicide. Obviously, these are neurotic, not homicidal patients, but they always think or often think that there's a better life somewhere else with another person, with more money, with riches, with fame. But often they're married to these really wonderful people like this chef, but what they have right in front of them gets devalued. It gets trumped on. It gets wasted. It gets destroyed. These people are toxic, destructive people. So think of how wonderful

her life could have been with him, but no, she had to take out all of these insurance policies. And my understanding is she became her own agent, wrote the policies as well as took them out. Talk about being obvious in terms of her planning for this murder, but she destroyed something good, her life and his. Insurance payments were being made, but not house payments, according to WDBO Ray Caputo to Dr. Chris Sperry, former chief medical examiner for the entire state of Georgia. I thought it was very interesting that he was shot twice, and I'm betting it was at close range. What does that tell you about the killer, Dr. Sperry? Well, it tells me that the killer was probably someone that was known to him and that the killer was allowed, that is, the victim allowed the killer to get relatively close and wasn't really worried about anything at all.

And he was taken by surprise because the killer, unbeknownst to the victim, had a gun and probably had it inside of a purse or something like that. Until she got close enough to him that she could easily kill him. And he just did not have an inkling of worry at all. You know, it takes such a psyche to sneak him on somebody that you either loved or love with a hidden weapon, go up to them at close range, take out the gun, and shoot them not once but twice. And I believe that second bullet really gave her away because she killed him twice over and then leave the scene. Now, take a listen to KATU News reporter Joe Douglas. Investigators say Nancy told them she'd bought a 9mm pistol at a gun show in February 2018.

They say the two bullets that hit Daniel Brophy did not match that gun. But investigators say they later discovered Nancy had bought a kit online from ghostguns.com to make a similar untraceable version of the pistol. They also say she bought gun parts like a slide barrel online and that the gun and accessories matched the bullets that hit Daniel. Police also say Nancy lied about her location the morning Daniel was found. They say she told them she was at her Beaverton home when surveillance videos showed her driving her minivan on Jefferson outside the Culinary Institute

before Daniel's body was found. Investigators also say Nancy told them she'd taken out a $40,000 life insurance policy on Daniel. They say they later discovered she was a beneficiary of several policies valued at more than $350,000. Nancy Brophy has pleaded not guilty to murder. As it turns out, it was over $1 million of life insurance proceeds she had coming to her at the time of the death of her husband. I mean, minivan? Could you get any more? Cliche, I'm a guilty minivan driver. Let me just put that out there.

So I wonder, does she want to get caught? Because to you, Stephen Lampley, detective author, Outside Your Door, that takes a lot of effort and a lot of planning to go to ghostgun.com, order what you need to make a ghost gun. What is a ghost gun? Nancy, in this case, what she did was she had previously bought a gun, I think at a gun show, and she went online to eBay, as I understand, and bought replacement parts for that gun. And what she did was that she took the original parts out of the gun as it was purchased. I believe it was a Glock. And then she replaced it with the parts that she bought from eBay. And the whole purpose of that was to use the gun to commit the murder, come back, take the barrel, which of course would, you know, indicate the

riflings and lands and grooves on the bullet itself, replaced the barrel and the parts that would give away that gun with the original in hopes that the police would never catch that. Well, at this moment, she is being held behind bars. The former romance novelist is seeking any way to get out of jail. But hey, chin up. You have a lot of time alone to work on your next novel.

We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Hi, this is an iHeart Podcast.