Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Nancy explores the Texas church massacre & Was teen's death a 'bucket list' murder

Episode Date: November 6, 2017

A massacre at a Texas baptist church left 26 worshipers dead and it raises many questions for investigators. Nancy Grace looks at the tragedy with terrorism expert Bruce Alexander, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall and investigative reporter Art Harris. Also, a woman accused of murdering an autistic teen reportedly carried out the act because it was on her “bucket list.” Nancy explores the depravity with Morgan, psychologist Caryn Stark and co-host Alan Duke. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. described as a Sunday service massacre. He was dressed in all black. The suspect crossed the street to the church, exited his vehicle, and began firing at the church. It was rapid fire. 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelly opened fire inside Sutherland Springs First Baptist Church. A local resident grabbed his rifle and engaged that suspect. He was killed after fleeing the scene. I never thought it would happen here. I mean, this is something that takes place in a big city. It doesn't make any sense. A devastating blow in this close-knit community reeling from what's being called the country's deadliest shooting inside a house of worship. All of America is praying to God to help the wounded and the families of the victims. We will never, ever leave their side, ever. How could a 26-year-old man, a young man in the prime of his life, be so evil and so twisted that he guns down 26 people at least,

including eight members of one family? This is a former member of the U.S. Air Force, and to make matters worse, goes to a church at worship hour on a Sunday morning to wreak havoc. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us this morning. Why? That's the big question. At least 26 people shot dead by a gunman. At least 24 others being treated for horrible injuries. A married dad, a married dad walks into the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs, Texas, and opens fire, opens the fire.

Then he flees. Many people claiming he was mentally ill, but if he was mentally ill, why did he know to dress solid black, wearing tactical gear, carrying a military-style assault rifle? How did he plan it out so cohesively if he was insane? If he knew it was wrong, why did he run? Why was he pursued and he knew to run? It's very unclear. But what we know right now is that these people, these saints are dead. The church pastor and his beautiful adopted daughter, Annabelle, dead.

Brian, Carla Holcomb, their daughter-in-law, Crystal, dead. A mother of four, Joanne Ward and her two daughters, Brooks, just six, and Emily, just eight, dead. It goes on and on. Joining me, Art Harris, investigative reporter, five-time Emmy Award winner, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us from L.A., and Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, death investigator also with me, Bruce Alexander,

a terror expert with over 30 years in counterterrorism. He served on the executive protection details for several cabinet members and has trained many foreign presidents security details personally. To all of you, thank you for being with us even under these grim conditions. Art Harris, first to you, what happened? Nancy, authorities have identified 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelly as the shooter in the Texas massacre who went into this church in Sutherland Springs First Baptist Church and opens fire with an AR-15 style weapon and kills 26 people wounding scores of others before he runs. Well how did it happen I mean were they in the

middle of the church service what time was that I, were they all standing up singing a hymn so nobody saw him come in? Did he come in while they're... Remember the last church shooter, I believe, was in Charleston. He actually waited till everybody had their eyes closed and were praying to our Holy Father in heaven and started shooting. Do we know how it went down exactly, Art? Nancy, apparently in the middle of a church service, he began shooting from the outside and then goes inside. And neighbors report hearing about 100 rounds going off. And it is unclear exactly the sequence. However, he caught everybody by surprise.

But before it was over, a massacre of historic proportions in Texas. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, an eight-month pregnant mom and three of her children were murdered. I'm just beside myself. How are they going to process this scene? And Joe Scott, one of the reasons I keep pounding at, chipping away at how did it happen, because the MO, the modus operandi, the method of operation, is going to tell me anyway whether this guy knew what he was doing, because I think he did know. I think he knew very well.

I want to know why he targeted this church, why he did what he did. Specifically, was there a person he was after? Was he angry at this church was he angry at church in general why why this church why at that time i want to know his every move because it will help me determine was he mentally ill or is he just pure evil that's what i want to know joseph scott morgan and how can they figure that out from a crime scene. Yeah, sequencing is the key here, Nancy. The idea of where he approached from, how he went about, methodical. It also gives you an indication from a crime scene perspective if this individual was familiar with the interior of this church

and how it kind of laid out. And also the sequencing is important here because of the timing. Who was shot first? Was he targeting the speaker, the music minister, the pastor, whomever it was? And that could give you an initial indication of what his purpose was there. And this is an overwhelming crime scene, Nancy, when you have multiple dead at a scene. This is a very contained area. This is not a huge church. You've got people that are literally

laying on top of one another you can imagine these these parents uh that are trying to protect their young kids they're laying on top of them potentially uh you've got spent casings that are all over the place it's a hellish nightmare for crime scene investigator uh to walk in and process this thing uh step by step and there'll be a lot of questions, as you can imagine, going forward. So sequence is very, very important, and it's key to all of this. Well, as horrific details of this cowardly attack are emerging, police sources are saying there was probably, quote, no way for the worshipers to escape.

The Wilson County Sheriff Joe D. Tackett, Jr. says that Kelly walked down the center aisle, turned around, and started shooting on his way back out. So he walks down the aisle like you're going toward the altar, turns around to look at the congregation, and starts shooting on his way back out. He could see unfold in front of him, Dr. Bethany Marshall. He could see unfolding in front of him as he walked forward, children, women, men, a pregnant woman just falling, and he continued to shoot Dr. Bethany. It's so frightening and chilling, I mean, the way you're describing it and one of the things that comes to my mind we've talked about this so many times before Nancy is

that these shooters love a fish in a barrel type of quality to the crimes they always like the Vegas massacre you know on the 32nd floor Columb Columbine walking through classrooms, the Santa Barbara school massacre, locking classroom doors and then walking into a crowded classroom. These shooters seem to love the power differential. That always strikes me. It's not like they're, say, at a crowd at Disneyland or in a big coliseum where people can run and hide or people have some kind of advantage.

They're almost always in some kind of a closed space where people can't get away. And as a psychoanalyst, I tend to think beyond mental illness and to really the underlying unconscious motivations behind these crimes. And it seems to me that they always go where people are enjoying themselves, where people are innocent, where there are families gathering, where there are children and parents. It's as if they have some ax to grind or some basic envy towards people who are actually enjoying their lives. And we know from some case studies of the histories of these shooters that they describe their own histories,

whether or not this is true, this is their own anecdotal experience. They always describe having been bullied, having been mistreated, as if society has power over them. And now they're reversing all of that, and they're trying to have power over society in some kind of sick and twisted way. Dr. Bethany Marshall, what does it mean to you that he wanted to see their faces as he gunned them down? Glee. He was so full of glee as he was gunning them down. I mean, this is a guy who imagines in his own mind that he has been, for lack of a better word, dissed by society, that there's a power differential. I mean, this is somebody who I would imagine if you were to meet him in public and had a conversation with him, or if you were to come to my consulting room, would describe that people criticize him, put him down,

maybe that he's been, a woman has been broken up with him, he's been unfairly discharged from a job. The society is against him. So now he's going to reverse all of that, and he's going to be against society. You know, I want to go to Bruce Alexander, our terror expert. Bruce, I know of one link, at least he has with this, the First Baptist Church. He was married to Danielle Shields. I think they have a child together. She was previously a teacher at First Baptist Church. Bruce? Nancy, that suggests to me also that there was a personal connection there as perhaps a possible means or motive that would precipitate the attack. But I think to your earlier point about how horrific this is, this is a particularly insidious attack, and you started

off by saying the fact that, look at the venue in which this took place. It's a church venue, and that suggests to me that this was very deliberate and very calculated from a tactical perspective from two points. Number one, the church is a welcoming place, not to the exclusion of any other sort of religious institution, but it's a very welcoming place. I saw previous video footage that showed that they frequently opened up with a hymn, and then the pastor invited people to turn and greet others, perhaps someone they didn't know. Well, what's particularly insidious about this and suggests to me that this was very deliberate is that the shooter, if nothing else, exploited that vulnerability knowing full well that the mindset, if you will, the welcoming nature of that church was going to be such that the defense, the likelihood of anybody having any sort of suspicion or even perhaps anybody having any degree or preparedness to counter this type of thing wasn't going to be there.

So that suggests to me he was looking for the quintessential soft target. The second thing I would say this is a church, again, by itself, its welcoming and opening nature does not build into its structures physical security or protective measures. That also suggests to me that this is somebody who could exploit that, the lack of built-in protective measures, a hardened facility. Again, it's the quintessential soft target. And so to your earlier point that led us off to this discussion, in my mind, I certainly view it as calculated. I don't know the motive at this particular point in time, still to be determined,

but certainly calculated in terms of trying to afflict the maximum potential casualties. He certainly selected a target reflective of that and by all accounts achieved it what do you make of it bruce alexander what dr bethany marshall was analyzing about how so many of these terroristic shooters like that as she said fish fish in a barrel effect where their victims are helpless there's nowhere to go, nowhere to run. They can't get away. She's absolutely spot on. When you look at what defines these attackers, you know, the active shooter, leaving aside sort of trying to analyze them. But when you look at it from a tactical perspective,

their intent is to create and inflict maximum casualties here. And it's very much similar to what we saw in Las Vegas. It's what we saw similarly last week. And so the captive audience guarantees that the tactical outcome that this attacker is trying to obtain is going to happen. No place to run, no place to really sort of defend yourself using the element of surprise, which certainly cuts down the ability to react and to defend from these kinds of things, they typically seek out that,

again, soft target where they can maximize the tactical advantage to them and, quite frankly, minimize the likelihood of them being killed in the commission of that particular mass casualty event. So that analysis is spot on. And again, the church certainly lends itself to that when you have a group of congregants without any means defenseless. It certainly supports that notion that confined space is a desired target. You know, Art Harris, investigative reporter, you know where I'm coming from because you know me so well. But when I think about the Sunday school teacher, I grew up having actually, Art, I think you know this, the same first grade, second grade, and third grade teacher as my sister, brother, and mother.

And they all sat behind me. We would sit on the third row on the right, and they would sit on the fourth row on the right, right behind me. There's no way I could misbehave because that was when they would still hit you if you misbehaved because I would totally get beat at school if we did anything wrong. But I'm thinking back about also sitting there would be our Sunday school teachers. And do you know Art Harris? To this day, I remember Miss Esther, Miss Julia, Miss Pace. In fact, I love Miss Esther's class so much, Miss Esther Puckett,

that I think I was three that they let me just stay in there every Sunday for, I forgot how many years, because I didn't want to leave Ms. Esther. I didn't want to graduate to the next class. And apparently I threw such a fit that it was just easier to leave me in there with her than to try to make me advance with, you know, everybody my age. And because I loved her so much. And I'm just, you know, when I take the twins to church on Sunday morning, the first stop is getting the children into Sunday school, high drama, and they love it. As a matter of fact, this past weekend, you know, it's the twins' turn 10.

Can you believe it? I just, you know, I'm so blessed. They gave them little posters for their birthday. The teachers had made and had them all ready and decorated the room for them. And who's better than a Sunday school teacher? I mean, you hear about preachers having this scandal and that scandal. The Sunday school teachers are the volunteers that are showing up ahead of time

to be with children and do a good thing and teach them about love. And that's one of the victims. I'm so upset I can hardly stand it, Art. Nancy, ironically, the shooter had also taught some Sunday school, according to one account, but he was a Sunday school teacher with a past. Few people knew, perhaps, when he walked in that church, if they did know him, his mother-in-law, by chance, lived in that town and may have gone to the church, not confirmed yet, but he had received a bad conduct discharge for assaulting his wife and their child while in the airport.

He got a one-year confinement. He was busted to lowest grade rank in the Air Force and was kicked out in 2014. So this is someone with a chip in his shoulder. In fact, a week before the assault, Nancy reports that his Facebook page featured this AR-15 gun as his lead photo, almost like a pinup. And the comment he had underneath the photo was, she is a, quote, bad bitch. Now that is someone who idolized guns and had a chip on his shoulder that no one could fathom would turn into something like this if that is linked. Guys, I want to pause just for one moment because our investigation into the church shooting in Texas is possible because of our partners, our partners that make our program possible. It's LegalZoom.

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Only at LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom.com. Thank you for helping business owners across the country, and thank you LegalZoom.com for being our partner today. I want to go back to the Texas shooting. We're talking about the perp. We know he's the perp. There's no doubt he's the perp. What I want to talk about is whether he was mentally ill, because that's what's being floated right now. Now, Art, you're telling me something I didn't know. Are you telling me that this guy was a Sunday school teacher before he was a mass killer? There are some reports that he taught a Bible study in a church in Texas at one point, and that before that, though, Nancy, he was discharged from the airport, the Air Force for beating his wife and child, and in 2014 got his bad conduct

discharged, dishonorable discharge. People are not allowed to buy weapons like this, and you also are banned if you have been convicted of domestic abuse. So he was a two-time violator of the federal laws that would allow someone to buy a gun. The question is, did he get this gun before he was discharged and got banned? We don't know if he was turned down, if he applied for a gun after and got through, or if he bought this before. One thing we're learning is this guy was called a creepy outcast who, quote, preached his atheism online before killing 26 people. Now, one guy, Patrick Boyce, who attended high school with the killer, says that he had a kid, fairly normal but quiet, and lately seemed depressed. He was the first atheist I met. I was shocked to hear the news. Now, I'm trying to factor in what all this means, if anything. I'm trying to figure out

how you go from being a Sunday school teacher to becoming an atheist. He, quote, he was always talking about how people who believe in God are stupid and trying to preach his atheism. Well, you know, Dr. Bethany, a lot of Christians are used to that, being told they're stupid for believing in God or Christ or any higher power. And it's not just Christians. I mean, Art, you're a devout Jew. I mean, Jews have been persecuted since, you know, from the very beginning. They were being persecuted way back in the Old Testament, for Pete's sake.

People have always claimed that people of faith are stupid. All right? So I'm starting to get an idea here, Art Harris. Do you know any facts before I go to Bethany on this that he called people that believed in a higher power, whether you're a Jew or a Christian or Muslim, whatever you are, are all stupid. Other than his friend who was quoted, Nancy, it's unclear. However, this is someone who obviously had no reverence for life or had no faith in life or a higher power to do something like this. So it's by his very actions he speaks about a belief or disbelief in a higher power. You know, Bruce Alexander, our terror expert joining us today. Bruce, how long would it have taken to plan this thing out? Because he was spotted at a gas station just

before the shooting in full tactical gear, getting enough gas to try to make a getaway, Bruce. Nancy, the planning cycle in this particular case, given the target, would have been relatively short. Let me contrast that to answer your question by perhaps let's look at last week with the terrorist attack in New York. We do know that based on reports was that there was some element of pre-operational surveillance, which is a typical hallmark in terrorist attacks. And so because of the nature of the type of attacks that they did, my sense is in this one was that he had some sort of pre-operational surveillance, but in this case, that pre-operational surveillance

could have been nothing more than what he did at that gas station ahead of time, would have consisted of looking down the streets, ensure there was no local law enforcement there, ensuring that he had immediate access or quick access right to the front. His objective was to create maximum amount of casualties in a minimum amount of time. So he could have planned that almost nearly spontaneously. But I go back to the fact that... Wait a minute, he couldn't plan it spontaneously if he had to get dressed up in that get-up like a little kid dressing up for Halloween and then go to get gas to fill up his tank for the getaway? You're absolutely right.

He could have, as I was leading to. My sense is no. It was far more premeditated and deliberate. Part of the reasons why are the ones that you just suggested. The other thing that tells me is this. The guy came in with over 100 rounds fired. That Ruger AR typically at max capacity has a magazine of 30 rounds. That suggests to me that he changed magazines at least three, probably closer to four times. He was prepared for that. The other thing that tells me that there was some element of planning that went into this ahead of time was, how did he

know the extent of the magazines, the number of magazines that he had there? Those are the kinds of things that the law enforcement will be looking at. But in this particular case, it suggests to me that there was a planning cycle that took place there. And to the earlier point, knowing he was going to be able to inflict that many casualties in a confined area there, that also suggests to me that there was some thought given to this. Crazy, maybe crazy like a fox, I would say. You know, one little girl shot, one child shot multiple times. Another little girl, Dr. Bethany, had her glasses shot off her face, and she jumped below a pew and hid.

Nancy, it's hard for me to even absorb these details. It's so, as I said earlier, chilling. It's so tragic. I think, you know, my dad's a minister, so I grew up in the church. And one of the things I observed growing up, and really my belief in this has been solidified throughout my training to be a psychoanalyst, is that church and religious organizations are where happy people gather. People are enjoying each other. They're with their families. You know, children are going to Sunday school, as you described. And I think that shooters target people who are happy. I mean, basically, they go where people are enjoying each other and they wreak havoc.

And the fact that this guy was preaching atheism online, to me, that speaks to his grandiosity and maybe even being a sociopath. Why do atheists always act like everybody's stupid but them? It's so true, Nancy. I mean, this guy had a message. But also, Nancy... Wait a minute. What is it? Why are atheists always trying to convert everybody to atheism?

Why? I'm going to have to think about that. It's sort of as if they have intellectual superiority as a people who believe in god or stupid they just can't stand everybody being happy around them okay so let's think about sandy hook so as i remember that that mass shooting the shooter's mother was a teacher at the school remember that and in this case, are you saying his mother-in-law or his wife was a teacher? His wife had been a teacher at the church. That's the only report I have. So he had that connection. Before I forget this thought, it seems like a

total disregard for life. And it's just actually Jackie's thought here in the studio with me. By killing children, children he didn't even know, to gun down children. But what is that, Bethany? Help me out. I'm just a trial lawyer. Okay, so I always think about the role of envy in these crimes. One of the things I was taught during my training is that envy and jealousy are a motivator for almost every single crime. You can't be happy because I can't stand it.

You can't enjoy your family. You can't be happy because I can't stand it. You can't enjoy your family. You can't go to church. You can't worship in peace because I cannot tolerate that you are happy because I am so miserable. Basic envy is that I can't take it if you have something good because it makes me feel bad. And so that's why I think with these mass shootings, they always go where people are happy. And I do know from being a pastor's daughter that it seems that often miserable people would sometimes gravitate towards the church to stir up trouble because they couldn't take the fact that it was a peaceable organization. And obviously, this is envy on steroids. I mean, you know, if everybody was envious to, you know, had a gun,

I can't even imagine. But I think it's just the basic happiness, Nancy. I think it's that simple. I think you need to write a thesis on it, Dr. Bethany, because that is one line of psychoanalysis I haven't ever heard explored, that you punish other people because they're happy. And so you have to wreak vengeance on them. So in the N-Art, this guy, what happened? As he's unloading his weapon, apparently, a neighbor sees this and approaches him with his own gun. Apparently, a local hero who saved the day and may have fired at him, we're not sure, but he chased him in his truck. Was this in the church or outside the church? Outside the church.

He confronts him, has a weapon, and disarms, or the guy drops his gun, and he climbs in his truck and runs, and this guy gets into his truck and follows him, and the shooter crashes into a tree, and they find him dead of a gunshot wound. It's unclear if it was from the hero, local hero, or if he took his own life, but it came to an end because of a local hero who otherwise this would have been even more

horrific, Nancy. You know, thank God for the hero. And I'm glad it's over that he didn't drive on in his getaway car to kill more people. But I'm just trying to absorb now what those families are going through, you know, in the days and weeks that follow this horrible, horrible thing. All we can do is try to find the truth, try to make it never happen again, and pray for the victims and their families. That's what I learned in all those years of prosecuting. I put one bad guy in jail after the next, after the next, after the next, after the next.

I mean, I can't even say next enough times. Thousands of people, you were there with me. And I learned all you can do is try to find the truth, try to make sure it doesn't happen again, and pray for the victims and their families. And I hope you all join me in that pursuit. I want to thank again our sponsors, our partners that make today's program possible,

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thank you so much for keeping fat boy healthy and safe an autistic teen boy is dead and now we are learning of allegations that his killer was a woman, a woman who was, quote, euphoric because she could now take an item off her, quote, bucket list. That item, murder. Straight out to death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, what happened? This set of circumstances is absolutely positively horrific. You've got a young man named Aaron who is suffering. They characterized it as autism, but on the scale of autism, he actually had been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome.

A sweet young man, he's described by his family this way. He was invited over to the home of the lady in question and told, promised, that he could come over and download some computer games. And when he got there, he walked into just absolute pure hell. This woman literally in the basement of her house had a dungeon set up, Nancy, where she took him into the dungeon because she had a desire, a bloodlust, if you will. She wanted to kill somebody. As you'd mentioned, check it off of her bucket list by the time she was 25 years old.

Took him in there, restrained him, and then took a wire garrotte and tied it around his neck in order to choke him out. It didn't work. The wire garrotte broke, Nancy, broke. And this poor child, this poor disabled child is there in horror. Then she pulls out the knives and she stabs him multiple times, finally stabbing him in the neck and killing him right there in her basement. She then allegedly takes him and buries him in a shallow grave covered with cement and tiles. Now, from what we are told by one of her girlfriends, a platonic girlfriend,

that she was, quote, Lily, this woman, Gemma Lily, was so, quote, full of herself and euphoric afterwards, she bragged to a co-worker about the killing. Now, see, that's the problem right there. That's why I always say, Karen Stark, psychologist joining us from Manhattan, that it's very difficult for me to ever believe a conspiracy is real. For instance, in the O.J. Simpson case, so many people believe the police had a conspiracy to get Simpson. B.S. All those people cannot keep their trap shut this long had a conspiracy to get Simpson BS not all those people cannot keep their trap shut this long about a conspiracy they had pin a five

million dollar book and make a whole lot of money do the talk show rounds and then go go live in secret that's what would happen so I find it very difficult to believe conspiracies she's the example. She couldn't wait to get back to work and over the water cooler, talk about murdering somebody, Karen. What is that problem? Because she felt so euphoric, Nancy. Here's somebody who from the time she was a teenager was obsessed with the idea of killing and was driven. She wrote a book to release those instincts. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, okay.

A book. Tell me about the, she wrote a book about what? About a serial killer. Well, Joe Scott Morgan, hold on Karen Stark, hold that thought. Joe Scott, that's going to be state's number one exhibit. Let's just start with the book she wrote because I guarantee you there are passages in the book that directly mirror what she did to this teen autistic boy. I guarantee you. Yeah, I can guarantee you it's going to paint a deadly narrative moving forward, Nancy.

And this is another interesting thing. She's fascinated with the horror genre. And she's fascinated so much, Nancy, that she's actually got a Freddy Krueger tattoo of a signature by Freddy Krueger on her body. That's how much she loved horror fantasy. Oh, wait. Okay, now wait. Wait. Wait.

Alan. Alan Duke. She has a Freddy Krueger tattoo. Yes. And she's also got a David Berkowitz, son of Sam tattoo, the letters SOS tattooed on her. Her nickname for her husband who left this world in 2014 was Gacy, named after John Wayne Gacy. Can I just ask out of curiosity how he died? I don't think there's any suspicion

there, but she was fascinated with that. And in the book this is the other thing her stepmother says that well she had a troubled childhood listen to what her dad did after she wrote this book about son of this sos book about the serial killer her dad actually made her a mask that resembled the serial killer she apparently really identified with the main character and who was no hayley dean thank god so kieran stark we got i got us off track i went down the garden path identified with the main character and who was no Haley Dean. Thank God. So Karen Stark, I got us off track. I went down the garden path. But my question was, she's talking about the murder over the water cooler at work. What is that compulsion to brag about your crime?

Well, because that's part of the continued excitement. It's the same as if she had taken pieces of him or things that belonged to him and could keep looking at them. She's obsessed with what happened because it gave her this euphoric feeling. And she just had to blurt it out because she was filled with it, Nancy. It was a part of who she was. It was so exciting. She'd been waiting for this her whole life. She thanked her accomplice, and she signed it SOS, Son of Sam.

The accomplice being another woman that apparently helped lure the teen boy who has Asperger's into the home. Quote, I can't rest until a fresh screaming victim is gushing on the floor. What about a text message, Alan Duke? What do you know? She sent a text message to her co-defendant just hours after the murder saying, quote, I am seeing things I've never seen before and feeling things I've never felt before. It's incredibly empowering, these images. Thank you. Well, I've got news for her. She's going to feel something else she's never felt before behind bars. The so-called bucket list killer writes in her sick

horror novel, and she had a so-called kill kit. What was that, Alan Duke, her kill kit? Well, I know one of the things they did, they went to numerous trips to a hardware store and they collected 100 liters of hydrochloric acid. they plan to use to dispose of the victim's body. I guess Joseph Scott Morgan can tell you what hydrochloric acid does to a human human body, but they didn't use it in the end. Instead, they just did it the old fashioned way. They dug a hole, buried him, put concrete and then tiled over it. So they went old school. All right, Joe Scott, what's with the hydrochloric acid? Well, they're going to attempt to dissolve the body. And when you apply hydrochloric acid to human remains,

it begins to break the body down to the point where a lot of people think that it's going to be impossible to get the body identified. The problem is that most people that begin to do this sort of thing have no practice at it. So they're not very good at it, which begs the question, why did they buy it in the first place? Because as you stated, they dug a hole in the backyard of the home and then poured concrete over the top of him and then sealed it off with tiles.

And just so that we remember, this young man's name was Aaron. His name was Aaron, and he had Asperger's. And they just, they suckered this poor kid in. And, you know, I've been around a lot of children over my course as an educator. And sometimes these kids are just, they're so disaffected. A lot of people are put off by their behavior sometimes, but they're very, very sweet people. And this woman, this monster, just draws him into her web. And I'm just brokenhearted over this thing. It's horrible.

You know, I feel bad for any victim, Karen Stark, but for a child that can't understand what's happening, or for someone like this that has, know a lesser mental capacity and it just to think of what that teen boy suffered at the hands of her and her girl roommate it's just it's just pure evil now karen um i know you disagree with me but I swear when I read about people like this or have tried prosecuted people like this I am convinced the devil is alive and well now a lot of people argue with you there's no such thing but when I see people like this woman Gemma Lily I really don't have any doubt in my mind the things

she did how did she come up with these evil, horrible things she did to this boy? Nancy, she's been ruminating about them since she was a teenager. And she was obsessed because she was obsessed with serial killers. She read everything that she could. There's no doubt in my mind so that she could plan this out and get full satisfaction that feeling of accomplishment of murder and destruction that she was looking for and i want to add that aaron had asperger's which means that on the autistic spectrum he was high functioning he knew what was happening. There's no doubt in my mind that this little boy really suffered and understood what was going on. You know, Karen, that she had created a room, a secret locked room where they tortured and killed the boy victim. And I've looked at the

room. It's got a tile floor so it can easily be cleaned of blood or evidence there is a tarp hanging around all around you know four corners like you know in a hospital when they pull a curtain around you there is a cot like a gurney with rollers wheels on the bottom and then it looks like a tool cabinet like the type you get at Lowe's or Ace or Home Depot, you know, the big red metal cabinet. And you would pull out drawers, red metal drawers. They've always got tools and nails and screws and whatever all organized on there.

It looks like one of those red tool cabinets in there. It looks straight out of a scene of Dexter. Remember? I was just going to say that, Nancy. It sounds like Dexter, where he was prepared to take all of the tarp and wrap it around the victim and had that caught there. Exactly right. That's exactly what it sounds like. Except Dexter would only kill the bad guys, not an innocent teen boy with Asperger's. Okay. That's right. Now, I'm thinking more about this novel that she would work on every single day. And I'm thinking about this little boy's fam, this teen boy's family, and how they feel now. Do you think this kind of person, Karen Stark, could be, if she had been caught early on

in her life and turned in a different direction, could she have turned out to be a different kind of person instead of like a sadistic murderer? Or was this basically part of her genetic makeup and nothing could change it? There is no telling. Nobody is able to really separate, no matter how many times they've tried to study it, Nancy, what is actually inborn and what's due to the environment. And so we must determine that it's both. It's a combination of having that instinct and being raised in the setting that brings it out. That's the best that we know about it. Karen Stark, can this woman ever be rehabilitated? Because, you know, I don't think she can. Well, you're right, Nancy, absolutely not. That desire to kill, that euphoria that she wound up getting, that will just make her want to do it

again more and more. So it will never go away. You cannot rehabilitate this kind of person. Another thing, Joseph Scott Morgan, I'm looking at the secret surveillance video of her pushing a car. It looks like a store like Walmart. I don't think it is a Walmart. And it's totally full of hydrochloric acid. Why would people normally buy hydrochloric acid? Well, you use it to essentially clean with many times. You

can clean things. I'll give you an example. It's so effective and so caustic that you can, if you have, for instance, like oil stains on an area, say on a concrete surface, you can apply it to that to actually remove those stains from the surfaces. It's very, very caustic. It'll just strip away all those layers. So you can only imagine what it can do to soft, tender human flesh. It'll just eat it away, erode it. And this is a chilling thing to me, Nancy. What if she wasn't going to use it to dispose of it with?

What if she was going to use this as a methodology of torture, which is not beyond the pale because it's been done before. There's things that are referred to as acid drips, which people have used over years and years of extracting information and being mean. Another thing in hydrochloric acid, the old muriatic acid, which I've written about in a couple of my Healing Dean murder mysteries, muriatic means pertaining to brine or salt hence muriatic means hydrochloric and the name is sometimes used I've always called it muriatic acid but it's now called hydrochloric acid and there was a French chemist Joseph Louise Gay Lussac and I had to learn all about that to write one of my books.

So the thing about muriatic acid, and I believe I use the black swan muriatic acid in my book, if I recall, is that it, unlike detergent or bleach or a washing machine or a dishwasher, it can, in fact, destroy DNA. And that's hard to do, Joe Scott Morgan. Yeah, it is. To go down to the very root of our existence to get into, well, not just the soft, tender flesh, but also it can literally dissolve bone after a period of time, and it's not a very long time that it would take to do that.

Now, in her jurisdiction, Alan, I don't believe they've got the death penalty. No. So bottom line, she'll probably do get a life sentence, and she'll probably do 20 years of it, and some judge somewhere will let her go, and she'll be back out on the street. I'll tell you one thing. I'm not inviting her home to dinner. That's why I don't like parole because they get out, they get a new name, and they start all over again. It's not some twisted desire to hurt someone or seek revenge or the joy of knowing someone's behind bars.

It's to save an innocent person 15 years from now when they get out and are wandering around and come upon an innocent person just like this boy. I wish you could see a picture of him. This kid, just big blue eyes. He looks like he wouldn't hurt a flea. I don't know how she actually decided on him, but his body, yeah, this body ended up in a shallow grave covered with cement. This boy, the teen boy, family, still in mourning. Aaron Pagich. God rest his soul. And may these two rot in hell. Nancy Grace,

seeking justice, signing off. Goodbye, friend.