Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Nancy Grace Killer Reads: The Hunting Wives

Episode Date: June 10, 2021

From the high life in Chicago to small town life in Texas, Sophie O'Neil and her family are reinventing their lives, but just because you don't live in the big city doesn't mean trouble can't find you. In May Cobb's new book, THE HUNTING WIVES, trouble finds O’Neill and her clique of new friends. It will be up to her to discover whether they are experiencing trouble or causing it. Joining Nancy Grace and author May Cobb for their discussion of THE HUNTING WIVES. NANCY GRACE: Killer Reads. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Killer Reads, the Nancy Grace Book Club. Today, The Hunting Wives, Mae Cobb. And I got a lot of questions for her, and many of them are going to be personal, Mae, so buckle up. Also with me, and boy, do we need a shrink, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angela Arnold, MD, at AngelaArnoldMD.com and renowned forensics expert, Karen Smith, lecturer, University of Florida, star of Shattered Souls podcast. And you can find her at BareBoneForensics.com.

And you'll find out why we need a forensics expert and why we need a shrink. But first of all, May, I i don't i guess this is a compliment there were many times when reading your book i felt hot all over and just i would close it and put it down i can't do this and of course would then open it up again and keep reading uh my producer here in the studio Jackie same thing we'd read it and I can't do this anymore and of course run back to it and open it up and read some more guys this is the story of Sophie O'Neill. And she has this glamorous job in Chicago where she does, I don't know, I guess lifestyle articles. Yeah.

And so she's surrounded by beautiful people. And I'm saying that with quotas. And beautiful homes and and i'm saying that with quoteys and beautiful homes and and beautiful stories and then she wants to get away from it all and it hits her as it did me once when i was in a park in new york city and it was a an asphalt, painted green. The asphalt was painted green, kind of like a tennis court. And there was chain link around it. And I had the twins with me. They could barely walk. And that's when they still wouldn't wear shoes. They were wearing socks and all bundled up. And to swing on a swing set, for each swing, it was 10 people deep. And then, here's the clincher, once you got on the swing, you could only have 10 pushes.

I'm like, you know what? This is just wrong. So anyway, Sophie leaves Chicago with her awesome husband, Graham, and their little boy, Jack, and they move to Mapleton. I don't know if that's a real place or not. Texas. It's a fictionalized version of where I'm from. A fictionalized version of where you're from. Now, May Cobb earned her M.A. in literature from San Francisco State University.

Her essays have appeared everywhere, including the Washington Post, the Rumpus, Edible Austin, Austin Monthly. Now, when I hear Rumpus and Edible Austin and Austin Monthly, that makes me think of beautiful people and beautiful food articles. Is this true, Meg? It is true. It's very true.

And thanks for having me on, Nancy. I'm so excited. I think I know who Sophie is oh no and now your debut novel was Big Woods and it won a lot of awards um okay May let's just get right down to it I hate these women I hate every single one of them. Not the ladies on the panel, but the ladies in this book. They're all filthy rich. They have these wonderful lives. And your heroine, I guess I could call her a heroine.

Let's just say she's not afraid of a cocktail. Let's just start with that. With her little boy, and all she thinks about is getting in with this rich clique of snobby women. Where does she come from? Guilty as charged, yes. She is, she's getting in with the wrong crowd, making bad decisions, and these women are wicked and devious, and they're just up to no good. And she's going to get in over her head.

I mean, it starts like at the very, very beginning. Dr. Angie Arnold, I mean, did you see? You're a shrink. You're a psychiatrist. I mean that in a loving, caring way. I mean, right at the beginning, I just want to snap her little hand and say, stay away from these women. Especially, she kind of has a girl crush on the lead rich witch, Margo. I mean, she moved to a small town, and it sounds like these are the most interesting people in the town.

You know what? I take issue with that, Dr. Angela Arnold. Where did you grow up? Let's just start with that. Memphis, Tennessee. So, you know, having grown up in the middle of nowhere, there are a lot of interesting people in the middle of nowhere, Dr. Angela. She went for the top, though. Maybe they were interesting because they were bad. What's your inspiration, Mae?

Well, gosh, I'm going to take the fifth. No, I'm just kidding. So growing up in Longview, it was such an interesting place because it is, it's a smaller city, but it was big enough to have like a mall. And it's kind of, it is in the middle of nowhere. It's two hours east of Dallas, an hour from Shreveport. So it also has like, in addition to being rural, it has a lot of oil money. So there was this high society component there. And it was a little bit like the television show Dallas, kind of on steroids, where there was a lot of people with a lot of money and not enough to do and so it's sort of a recipe for hijinks and disaster and murder not that the murder happened well my real life or anything but um

well you may call it hijinks but i call it murder and attempted murder and aggravated assault i mean there's just so many crimes here. I didn't know which way to turn. But one thing, back to you, Dr. Angela Arnold, before we bring in our forensics expert. What is it about human nature? And Mae Cobb, guys, we're talking about an incredible new book. It's like a train wreck, except you can't look away from it at all. You just have to read to the next page.

And I'm not going to give it away, but when I saw why the cop kept coming back and back and back to speak to Sophie, I just, I felt sick, sick. What is it, Dr. Angela Arnold, that makes us hang out with people we know are bad for us? Nancy, I think, because first of all, Nancy, while I was reading this, let's be honest,

we all do this. I think that's one of the things that pulls us into this book also. We all participate in this activity. And I think that we look for different parts of ourselves through these other people. Maybe they do things that we could never, ever in our lives do. But by gosh, we want to watch them and feel the way those things could make us feel if we actually could do them. I'm trying to soak in what you're saying. You know, I felt so bad for the husband, Graham, who's just this great guy married to Sophie.

And the first night she comes home late. Okay. The second night and then the third night, and it's not like she's out running around with another man. She's out with her friend girls, the so-called hunting wives. Hold on, ma'am, getting a question. Kay in Denver, how long does it take once you start writing a book to complete your character story? Gosh, so for The Hunting Wives, this one, it actually came out pretty quickly. I wrote it sort of in a fever, maybe because it is like a train wreck and I couldn't look away as the author either. So I wrote the whole thing in about seven months. Wow. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. So there's your answer. Kay in Denver, seven months, she wrote the whole

thing. May Cobb is with us, the author of a brand new book, her second stab at it, pardon the pun. Her first was Big Woods and now it's The Hunting Wives. And I will reveal this much. I also was a little obsessed with Margot, Miss Perfect. Yay! Because every time you describe her, whether she's got on some elegant evening gown at some charity event and you write down to the jewelry you describe her skin as tan and um everybody these ladies their skin looks perfect and soft like they just rubbed in suntan lotion or something or had one of those expensive spa treatments i don't even know what you would call them. But the way you describe them is so luring. And then you've got her in the bikini and it's perfect on her. And, you know, I don't even,

I guess I was in the seventh grade when I looked perfect in a bikini. I haven't been wanting to look again since then. But there are these women out there that look perfect and then we find they're anything but perfect makeup how did you get these descriptions so perfectly and they are evil i think everyone in that little clique is evil everyone they are they're all just they're devilish and horrible and um well first of all thank you so much. I'm so glad you found Margo alluring, too, but there are women like this in East Texas. And so a lot of the descriptions just came from, you know, honestly growing up there and the glamour and the glitz and all of that. And when we're saying in the middle of nowhere, I kind of, I use the phrase, but I also take offense to it because I grew up in rural middle Georgia and we were in unincorporated Bibb County, but there was a lot going on. It was definitely

not nowhere in my mind, but geographically it's kind of out in the middle of very wooded area. And speaking of wooded area, you have several red herrings in there that I like a lot. So I'm just curious about how you came up with these women. I think you patterned them after someone, but you're not saying that. All right, there is a murder. There is a murder. I'm not going to give it away. Yes, there is. But let me just ask Karen Smith, forensics expert and host of

Shadow Souls podcast. There is a big difference when you're trying to process a scene, a murder scene inside a structure like a home, a kitchen, a bedroom, a garage, like in Jennifer Dulos. We know that's where she was killed because there's so much blood in her garage. That's the Connecticut Missing Mama 5. Or outdoors. Let's tackle outdoors first. Karen Smith, to process a scene forensically, a murder outdoors, is very difficult. Yeah.

You pull out all the stops. I mean, this is where the major case truck comes in when you have something out in the woods. You're talking metal detectors and shovels and rakes and all kinds of different forensic tools that we have to use inside of a home or inside of a building. It's a lot easier. We can turn the lights off. You know, if we had to use luminol or an alternate light source outside, we have to wait for the sun to go down. That could be a 12, 15 hour day. You're tired.

Completely different stuff. And I have to say, this is so compelling. She has flipped the script, making the women the evil ones. You know, we read and see movies all the time where the men are the evil men. And this is so fascinating to hear that the women are this devious and this horrible. And I have to say, from that description of the characters, looks can be deceiving.

I live in Los Angeles. The women here are gorgeous. But underneath, who knows? I got a horrible complex living out in L.A. during Dancing with the Stars. Everybody is tall and skinny and gigantic and perfectly natural, fake blonde hair. I mean, they're all perfect teeth, perfect everything. And then there was me. So, you know, I'm wondering how Sophie fit into that dynamic, May.

I too had a complex living in LA and had to come home to Texas because I did not fit in. So there might be, there might be a little bit of me and Sophie. And I think Sophie, you know, does have, you know, some natural beauty and things, but she definitely is outmatched with this group of women. And I do think that's part of the pull for her is that, you know, she's been in Chicago and she's been around, you know, from her work in magazine, like glitzy, glamorous stuff. this is a different animal altogether these sassy southern very well-heeled women with with not a lot that they have a lot to lose but they don't they kind of don't care if they're going to lose it and they're above the law in a lot of ways um and i don't know if i got off track with your question but um yeah i don't know i'm totally into what you're saying, because, again, I'm putting myself in that spot. And the thought that I could do something that would make me lose my twins and my husband, forget about our house or our beat up minivan or any possession we may have. But the thought of being away from my twins,

me doing something that ends in that, I mean, every time she gets with these women, they're the hunting wives. That's what they call themselves because they skeet shoot at night. Okay. Every time she gets with them, something bad happens. Yet she keeps going back. Now you tell us, May, about what in her history makes her take these chances and about her life with her mother and her absent father, how she gets bored in this beautiful town with this beautiful home this great husband and this perfect little boy. Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head a lot of it has to do with Sophie's childhood so her mother raised her in this very rootless way she was a traveling ER nurse and the father abandoned them when Sophie was little and so the mother would move her from town to town

and she was, you know, pretty flighty and just not stable at all. She always had a different man because, and I'm not a man hater, contrary to what many people believe. I don't hate men. I just hate men that commit felonies. Now you've got this madeup town of Mapleton,

but one of your scenes really stuck in my mind, how Sophie, as a little girl, I guess 11, I have that in my head, was in her room reading or doing something in her room, and the only time her mom would interact with her is when she'd stick her head out of her room and the only time her mom would interact with her is when she'd stick her head out of her room and tell sophie to run in the kitchen and bring her a peach schnapps yeah yeah and that was her mother's interaction with her because she had some guy back there and you would hear all the laughter and the canoodling and then there is sophie just in her room yes yes so that that I love that that stuck out for you because that really was that's a formative thing for Sophie is just that kind of role model

and so she grows up and she wants stability but then there's this other part of her that's always craved like the bad boy and in this case it happens to be the bad girl. So she's, all she's known is sort of that kind of, you know, unstable, you know, family life. So as much as she really wants to cling to her beautiful husband and wonderful toddler, there's this other side to her that's very much wanting something bad, unsavory, that's not good for her. It's almost like she can't believe she can have stability because, you know, that's not what she was used to as a kid. And then part of it's just runaway physical attraction for Margo. So some of it is the childhood. I'm not really buying that, Mae. I mean, I know you wrote the book. I don't think it's her runaway physical attraction to Margo.

Yeah. Margo's very sexy, very pretty, but she's in love with her husband. Or so we think. I think it is something else. I think it's that dangerous allure. Yes, exactly. That's it, Nancy. And I'm going to borrow that and give you credit

because that's what it is. She's seeking danger like so many people do. Can I tell you something? I had a best friend that was a defense attorney with the greatest personality, beauty queen, smart, the works. And, um, but she represents dopers. So you can only hang out with her so much before somebody lights up. Okay. And to me, that is my cue to get out of there, or at least at the time, because I had so much to lose as a district attorney. That's the last thing I needed to be around was somebody having a joint at a get together. No, I mean, and now with children and a husband, what is it, May, that was so alluring about this femme fatale? It's the only way I could put it, Margo, who really, according to one question, we've got Margo is like the queen bee in high school. Everyone wants to be in her clique. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, why didn't she hear the signals like, for instance, we'll just have one more drink or swear you won't tell or standing by when you see things that are wrong and i'm not gonna fool your plot you see things that are wrong happening around you but you keep going back i do i think it's that broken piece of sophie that is definitely has a hole in her heart from when her dad left and i think it's it's it is that and part of it is that boredom thing where she was used to having more and then she gets you know she gets the grass that's supposed to be green and it's it's too green and there's the crickets are louder than they should be and the walls are closing in so there's just not enough to do and these women are so much fun and part of her really i think wants to see how far they'll go so even with the warning signs when she finally does

sort of wake up and realize i'm done she she's past the point of no return so well wait a minute you mean when a cop knocks on her door at that point? Because she had so many times that she could say, I'm out of this. And another thing, being a mom, how do you get bored? I don't get it because there's always something I need to be doing. You know how far behind I am on scrapbooking? I mean, much less, you know, just too much. It's like drinking out of the fire hydrant. I guess it's kind of what you want, but you know, another thing I really liked about what you did

was the way you described her obsession with this woman. You say it's sex, but that's just you may cop. Cause I'm not buying that. I think it's that she wants some other life. And I think a lot of people have that. Did you see that Dr. Angela Arnold? You're the shrink. Okay. You're the MD. I'm just a JD, but she would obsessively look at Margo's Facebook and all of the glamorous photos on there. And she would drink in like she was thirsting to death every detail about what Margo was wearing and her hair was so sleek and she had a necklace like that just sat right in the middle of her cleavage and she just sucked up every detail on Facebook don't people know that's all fake well it's fake but you know what else,

Nancy? Facebook does all of that on purpose, and it's built to pull us in. And so if there's any little part of you that wants to be pulled in and has the time and inclination to be pulled in like that, that's exactly what Facebook is for. I have to wonder if she was fulfilling something because she was so ignored by her mother growing up. Hmm. What about that, May? I actually think that's very on point. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I didn't consciously think of that while I was writing it, but I think that's very true.

She's seeking that attention. And you're so right about Facebook. Like, all of our lives are so curated for social media that, you know, Margo is on display, and Sophie's just, she's unfortunately the perfect, she sees it at the right time and the wrong time and she gets sucked into. I think you're right, Nancy, there's part of her that does want Margo's lifestyle. I don't know that she so much wants to be with Margo sexually as she wants to be Margo. I'm not quite sure about that but another the way you describe her logging on and looking but she wouldn't outright like like the photo because she didn't want to be too forward and she was overwhelmed when she saw margo had like what almost 4 000 quote friends was that the right 3 700 something

friends and i like the way that you describe how she waits before she will respond to a text or a Facebook message or a posting because she doesn't want to look too forward or too excited. But yet she's staring at her phone, waiting for it to ping. Yeah, I think that's so like we all think that we're out of high school, but we're really not when it comes to relationships. Sometimes we can really fall back into that, you know, schoolgirl mode. Or maybe it's just me, but I think other people do, too. You know, when I really did a reality check on this, Sophie seems, you know, kind of normal. And she had this great job in Chicago. She moves with her husband and

son to Mapleton, Texas and to get away from it all. But when she, she's been poring over Facebook, she's been staring at this woman. But when she follows, I think it was a maid into a gated community into the area where Margo lives. She sneaks into the neighborhood to spy on this woman she really doesn't know to find out what day the maid comes. That's freaky, Mae.

Please tell me you haven't done that. No, of course not but but that is it is a little stalkery i'll say but no may does not behave like that sophie is i might be a tiny shade of sophie but she's a 10 and i might be a one i'm very yeah i advise you to say nothing more at this point. Okay. As your lawyer, but you know, a lot of people are writing in and they want to know that. Did you start from the beginning at the outset to make these characters so nasty and each one of them, each one of these women, let's see, I read a little note. Sophie, Margo, Callie, Jill, I think I'm leaving out one of them.

Yes, Erin, her real friend, Erin. Did you just start the book and then the characters, you start developing their personality, then you just let the personality go to its natural conclusion? Or did you know at the beginning what was going to happen at the end? I had no idea. I write very much without an outline and I try to write as organically as possible. It's just my process. I didn't even know who the girl was. When you say you write organically, you mean just let it rip?

I let it rip, yeah. Like, I had the original setup, but I did not know who the women were. And I, you know, like, I didn't know who the killer was until halfway through. I just knew that there was a secret clique of these hunting wives and that they were rich and probably pretty wicked. But I really met the characters as I was writing them. Like there's an early scene where they're at that lavish garden party. And Sophie. Wow.

The one at Margo's house. Yes. And, and she's. That was some party. I know. Right. And she, she kind of meets them for the first time. And it was, it was really the first

time i met them too so i just was letting them kind of show up see how catty they could be what they were going to say and that's sort of that is how my process is i have to let the characters lead me i wish i could do more up front but that's just the way i work i have to really go well if you didn't then the characters wouldn't be true to themselves if you didn't let them, quote, do what comes natural. You know, another thing is booze. There is a lot of drinking in this. I think there may be a roofie or two. But did you notice?

I always think this is interesting to Dr. Angela Arnold. She'd take a drink of, let's just say, I think a couple of times of bourbon that was always given to her at one of these get togethers. And you know, it tastes wicked when you first get it into your mouth. And, but yet she'd just keep drinking it. And it's often she'd describe it as then it tasted like velvet going down. It does. It does does it only tastes wicked the first little sip you take let's be honest nancy you know to me if something smells like paint remover i just naturally don't want to drink it but that's just me i guess you ladies have a

different set of taste buds and i'll just leave it at that. So, Karen Smith, I want to go back to analyzing a crime scene, outdoors versus indoors. But you said something that you thought was pretty interesting, that the bad players in The Hunting Wives are the women. Yeah, and you know, I have to go back. I was chomping at the bit to jump in earlier. What really captured my attention was this lust versus love with Margo. Yeah, Sophie can be in love with her husband, but she may be in lust with Margo. there because it it fits so well with this when you have a so-called perfect life and you get bored sometimes it's really easy to take a left turn at that primrose path and if you go back to the motivations that you know nancy and i we work how many murders and how many scenes sex power and money they're the trifecta of motivation you can take any motivation on the planet you can just fill it down into one of those three things or a combination of them and that's why people do

what they do and that's what makes this so compelling is this group of women who are so evil to do these things not only to other people but but to each other. It's fascinating. They're like a coven. You know, May, you're making me really suspicious about who these characters are modeled after. But, you know, even Mayberry and Andy of Mayberry had high society. Okay. So you're going to have a high society no matter where you go. So what was it about Sophie's background that made her want to be part of that so much? Whenever I have ever been at, let me just say, Fancy Shindig's, all I can think about is getting out of the dress and out of the makeup and getting home to my twins. She has a completely different take on things. Why does she want it so badly, Mae?

I think, I do think that there is the part of her that because of her childhood and stuff that she probably never had like a stable set of circle of friends so she had Aaron but other than that she didn't have her group because she was moved around too much so I think now she's she's going to be a part of this group and this group is exciting and it's really the most sort of as as a new mom like elise she's felt in a long time and then there is you know that that left at the primrose path um lust component where she it's just a compulsion she can't even stop herself like she she is just so drawn to margo and um she just wants to be part of that whole world. And there is nothing else like that going on in Mapleton. And it might be fun to have a beer with her friend Erin,

but it's also just kind of boring to her. So she really does, she's just totally swept up in their world of debauchery. You know, that's really interesting, May. And I've thought about it a lot. I guess all the years that I prosecuted and was really living off adrenaline for years and years and years, to me, nothing is more wonderful than being at home with my family. So I guess it's what you've been through that leads you to where you are right now. And I'm thinking about these women, specifically Margo and the other women in her group, how they seemingly think that all that wealth and all that glamour, the beautiful

clothes, the beautiful home, as you said, garden parties, the way you describe it, these rolling grounds with magnolia trees and perfectly manicured lawns. And the guy out back parked with a car shucking oysters, I think it was, so everybody could have fresh oysters, the booze flowing and the food everywhere. That was some party. I get the sense that they think, these women, that they're untouchable. Are they arrogant or do they think their wealth protects them? Yes, I do think that that's, I think that's exactly it. They really do feel like they're untouchable above the law. They're insulated by their wealth.

They've always been able to do whatever in the world they want to do and it's just a very uh it is that sort of sex murder money you know power intoxicating thing that they've got going on man and when you say sex well i'm not going to spoil the plot but i would call it something entirely different you call it sex all you want to but um okay if i say anymore i'm gonna ruin the plot so i'm just gonna stop myself listen to this okay hunting the hunting wives is just like texas big bold and hot This spicy novel is filled with unpredictable twists and unforgettable characters, impossible to put down.

That is from Samantha Downing, speaking to USA Today. Sultry, salacious, unpredictable. Well, that's right. It is unpredictable. It's very unpredictable. The Hunting Wives is the kind of book your mother warned you about you will devour it that's by riley sager sager a new york times bestseller of home before dark

so i've got a question i'm not going to ask specifics maycob but is there any way that we're going to see a sequel arising from any one of these characters? You know, I... I want you to write a sequel! Okay, I will then. That sounds great. No, I've actually been kicking the idea around some. My next thriller is another standalone, but it too is set in a small town in East Texas. And it's about three women that are lifelong friends. But I have thought, you know, gosh, it might be interesting to do some flashbacks to like Margo and Callie's boarding school days or what happens next. And

man, what a dream it would be to have like a TV series where they really did explore and keep this going. So, yeah, maybe a sequel. Do you ever wake up at night thinking about Margot? Because I've thought about her a lot, and she's a fictional character. That's so nice to hear. I don't anymore, but definitely during the writing of it, absolutely, and for a while after. But I wrote this three summers ago, so it's been a while. So now that I'm in the middle of the other book, those characters are in my brain.

To me, I know Sophie's the main character, but Margot, she's gorgeous, beautiful, sensual, sexy, and pure evil. Pure evil. It's like the devil. He doesn't always look like a demon. Sometimes he shows up in a tuxedo looking like a movie star. But, you know, Nancy, you have asked how can someone be pulled into this and look how you've been pulled into this character.

I have been. I got to tell you guys, we are talking to this incredible writer, Mae Cobb. And she really pulls out the stops in The Hunting Wives. May, I wish you the very best, and I can't wait to read the sequel. Now there, I didn't give it away, did I? No, no, you didn't at all. Nancy, thank you so much for having me on. This was such a blast. I'm telling you and we can all get this on amazon right that's where i get

everything right can't we oh yes yes it's on amazon absolutely wow makeup the hunting wives also with me dr angela arnold and karen smith ladies till we meet again thank you this is an iheart podcast Ladies, till we meet again. Thank you. This is an iHeart Podcast.