Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Natalee Holloway's dad finds bones in Aruba! Is it her?

Episode Date: August 18, 2017

The father of Natalee Holloway, missing since a 2006 Aruba vacation, revealed human remains found after a tip from a suspect's friend are being tested to determine if the bones are from his daughter. Investigative reporter Art Harris and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan join Nancy Grace to discuss the case in this episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. 2017 marks the 40th anniversary of the Summer of Sam. To mark the occasion, Pocketbooks is proud to release a special anniversary edition e-book of Son of Sam by Lawrence D. Klausner. This is an incredible story of how a single man, David Berkowitz, dubbed Son of Sam, the demon-haunted.44 caliber killer, killed six, wounded several others, and terrorized millions of New Yorkers over eight known attacks from July 1976 through August 1977. It's also the story of the greatest manhunt in the history of the New York Police Department, the intimate narrative of the men assigned to tracking down a lone killer. The police task force investigated more than 3,000 suspects, some of them cops, before finally making an

arrest. In the meantime, politicians watched a city writhe in panic, newspapers played upon the fears of their readers, and the criminal justice system showed itself incapable of coping with the man who committed such horrendous crimes. Download Summer of Sam by Lawrence D. Klausner today. Royalties earned from the sale of this book will be shared between the victims or their families and the author. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. 2005, on the small island of Aruba, Natalie Holloway was with friends at a local bar where she was last seen getting a ride with Euron Vandersloat. Natalie's disappearance remains a mystery.

Her dad says that he and a private eye found human remains in Aruba. We took those remains and had those remains tested, and they just returned last week that they're human remains. Will there be able to be some kind of test, Dave, that will answer once and for all whether this is Natalie's? We're in the process of doing a DNA test. Dave Holloway says that a friend of the man who was once suspected in her disappearance tipped him off.

I know that there's a possibility that this could be someone else, and I'm just trying to wait and see. An American beauty scrubbed in sunshine. The all-American girl. An honor student. A cheerleader in the dance corps at school, a loving daughter, her world in front of her. This Alabama beauty queen goes missing on her senior trip. She's never seen again.

I have spoken to her mom and dad and stepdad so many times as they recount their desperate flight to Aruba. And then they land. They have no idea where to start or what to do, but they try. They try and try without success. The prime suspect then goes on to murder yet another girl, Stephanie Tassiana Flores. But still, no sign

of Natalie Holloway. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. In the last hours, her father, Natalie Holloway's father, reveals that he and an investigator have announced that following a renewed, nearly two-year investigation, the remains that they have discovered will be DNA tested to determine if they are those of Natalie Holloway. With me, investigative reporter and award-winning investigative reporter,

I might add, Art Harris is with me, along with death scene investigator and forensics professor at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. Guys, thank you for being with me. You know, Art Harris, it seems to me like it was yesterday that you and I were on, you were in Aruba, and I was in a studio at CNN talking nearly every night about finding Natalie Holloway. In fact, I remember, believe it or not, it was my first work of fiction, as I recall, that came out, or maybe it was my very first book, Objection, and I was so afraid to leave, seeing in studios, we nearly canceled the book release that night. I think it was 30 minutes before it was time to start the book release, this big deal in my world

anyway. I was, I think, on the phone with you and Aruba saying, I think we need to call this thing off. She could be found any minute. I don't want to be, you know, trying to talk about a book when Natalie's going to be found. It was a breakthrough every five minutes, it seemed, allegedly, and then they evaporated. There were so many dead-end leads, Nancy, so many people lying about what happened that night, and still no conclusion. And that's my fear right now. Let's start bass-ackwards for once. I never would do this normally. But let's start with the breaking news.

Let's talk about the fact that, and this is not just some, you know, reporter announcing that they think they found something. This is her father. What do we know, Art? What is his belief? People have come out of the woodwork to approach them over the years, including, remember, Joran van der Sloot. Joran apparently came forward with news that he would tell where the remains were to the mother. And, of course, that turned out to be a ruse, $250,000 demand.

Apparently, he paid $25,000. Now, why are you starting with that when I said the breaking news? You know what, I have to report myself. Do I have to Q&A with myself? Don't lead me up to it. The breaking news is, have we found Natalie's body? That's what's happening right now. A tipster tells the father and TJ, someone TJ found, that he knows that there are remains, he believes, in a house or near a house in Aruba. That's all they have announced. And they go there and they dig and they find what they say now are confirmed human remains. Don't know if it's Natalie.

Their hopes are up. They've been up before and dashed. They have now taken the bones and whatever they have to be analyzed by a, quote, prestigious DNA lab. We won't know for several weeks, says the father. And so everyone is on pins and needles again. Hopes are high that maybe they can get closure if this is confirmed to be Natalie's remains. Art, do you remember the video of Natalie Holloway? I showed it a million times of her in her, I want to say baton.

I think it was her out on a football field with a group of other girls, and they're cheerleading her dance outfits. And I played it so many times, it actually hurt me to even look at it. And then there was another clip I played a lot of her in the backseat of a car. I think her mom was driving and I'm pretty sure she was wishing her mom a happy birthday and just talking and art, you know, both of you guys have children. I got to where I couldn't stand to even look at it, to think what she went through and that desperate search, her parents landing in essentially an island belonging to the Neville and Antilles and having no idea what to do to find their girl. So now, just like you said, there have been so many tips that fell through.

I've been with you, Art. Remember when there was the tar pit and there was the beach and then there were all the searches in the ocean and then they thought a human skull had been found at the bottom of the ocean near Aruba. That's just a few of the many, many false tips. But the fact that the father himself is saying that this could be Natalie, to me, that carries a lot of weight. This is not just some kook that's snorkeling, you know, on a vacation day on the tip of Aruba and thinks he finds Natalie Holloway. This is the father. This is someone who has not given up on his daughter. I mean, the whole family has been obsessed with finding a killer, which is pretty much presumed to be who we know,

but no charge is ever brought for this murder, and they will not give up. He has been dedicated to finding out what happened to his daughter 12 years. Imagine that, Nancy. And here you have him still on the hunt with a respected private investigator, and they have received mixed greetings in Aruba. As you know, it is a place rife with corruption and double dealings. A father of Joran van der Sloot is a judge. There have been so many connections and reasons to cover this up from their point of view that he's up against an almost impossible task. So they're not revealing the source who led them to this tip. A lot of people are afraid what would happen to them should they be identified as the tipster

who keeps Aruba in the public eye with a black eye? This is a place that— Well, I have no—you said presumed to be the killer, Jorn Vandersloot. His father, Paulus Vandersloot, was a judge in Aruba. And when we tried to ask him questions, all you saw were elbows and tail hole because he just took off running. The video is of Paulus Vandersloot, Judge Paulus Vandersloot, running away from the camera rather than answering any questions about Natalie Holloway. Long story short, I can't be too hard on Paulus Vandersloot, although I think he was part of a cover-up in this whole thing to protect his son

because he's dead. His son gave him a heart attack on a tennis court. So he's dead. We'll never learn anything from him. I want to go through all the many, many tips that have been proven false. This one is different because it's Natalie Holloway's own father coming forward, claiming that according to a friend very close to Jorn Vander Sloot, judge's son, there on the island of Aruba, who was last seen with Natalie Holloway. According to that friend, Jorn Vandersloot gave her GHB, Georgia Homeboy, gamma hydroxybutyrate, the date rape drug, that she threw up, choked, and died. Do I believe that's

what happened? No, not at all. Why? Because in one statement, Jorn Vandersloot described, I think it was the flowered underwear Natalie Holloway had on when he left her at the beach, when she told him she wanted sex and he didn't. Right. Tell a high school boy you want to have sex and he says no and the girl says yes. Yeah, that's not happening. So that whole story is false, but this is a friend of Jorn VanderSloot's that has led the dad to the body or to the remains. Joseph Scott Morgan is with me, death scene investigator and forensics professor at Jacksonville State University.

If, if these are human remains, how can you tell that, and what do we do now? Joe Scott. It's a great question, Nancy. One of my major problems with this whole thing is Aruba in and of itself. They're claiming that they've come across human remains down there. It would be an insult to the Keystone Cops to refer to the constabulary in Aruba as the Keystone Cops. It's a train wreck down there. I don't understand how in the world the scene was processed. I don't know how to verify that they've actually collected these remains. I'd

like to know what esteemed forensic anthropologist in that huge place of Aruba has declared that these are in in fact, human remains. And here's another big question. They claim, it is being claimed, that these remains are being examined by a renowned DNA scientist. Okay, well, that's all fine and good. Let me ask you this question. How'd you get the human remains out of Aruba and get them to this person to have them examined? When did all of this take place? Who processed the scene?

Who touched these remains? They're talking about DNA. One of the things we have to keep in mind, Nancy, is that DNA is very, very fragile. And you're already talking about a very hostile environment in which Aruba is not like any of the other Caribbean islands. It's almost desert-like. It's got cactus growing there. You're not going to see palm trees and all this stuff. It's completely different. People like to go there because they know the sun is always going to be shining. It doesn't rain very much there. So imagine the remains rotting out of the desert in the southwest in America. It's very hostile. So who's touched these remains? I've got a lot

of questions about this, how this whole thing was processed, who's going to be handling these remains. And now I think the biggest part for me is that we have a phrase in forensic science that talks about in situ investigation or observation. That means if you have these remains, in order to get the full picture of what has happened to this young lady, you have to observe the remains in their original position. Now, how are you going to do that now? Who processed this scene?

And also, how are you going to determine cause of death? If there is some type of trauma to this body or what remains of this alleged body, how are you going to vet that? I'm very curious as to how this thing is coming down. I don't necessarily like the connection that's going on with the media here relative to. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Hold on. hold on, hold on. What do you mean? Are you familiar with what Joseph Scott Morgan is saying about a media connection? I know that apparently a crew from Oxygen followed TJ and the father on their hunt for these clues and were there.

So, you know, you could go back to Geraldo and the Al Capone tomb when it was revealed, you know, what was behind there, big buildup and then nothing. So, you know, Joe has a good point. Well, hold on. I find it very, very difficult to believe, very difficult to believe that Natalie's father would do a stunt about his daughter. I don't think it's deliberate in any way. I think he's full of hope and goodwill and prayers for a conclusion here. But if, in fact, putting aside Joe's skepticism, which I agree with, there are so many questions as to the bona fides of how this is

being examined, but, you know, if this outfit was helping them to proceed and their, you know, TV camera is probably better than a bodyguard. People are not going to mess with you if they think the world is watching, you know, that's the best insurance for them. So they were there under that guise and, you, and whether they're holding on to the results, we don't know, but that's a good question. Well, hold on just a moment, guys, before we throw the baby out with the bathwater on this, but just because a media crew is helping or funding it, that doesn't mean it ain't so, number one. Number two, very often media shine a light on something that otherwise would be unknown. For instance, who is this guy? Who is

this friend of Jorn Vandersloot's? How were they found? You know, I don't know that. But I guarantee you, many times in the past, if it weren't for media intervention in a case, it would go unnoticed, or media intervention on information, it would go unnoticed. Nobody would ever know about it. So, you know, I'm glad. I'm glad because it's keeping the case alive. Come hell or high water. You kept it alive for a long time. That's true. I have.

But come hell or high water, it's keeping the case alive. I just hope there's not a heartbreak at the end of this road for Natalie's family. Take a listen to what Natalie Holloway's father said about his search for his daughter on NBC's Today. Listen. What's your level of confidence, Dave? You know, throughout all this process, over the last 12 years, Matt,

we've had a number of disappointments, and I've put up a wall trying to find something that's not going disappoint me and when we determined that these remains were human I was shocked and I know that there's a possibility this could be someone else and I'm just trying to wait and see. What would it mean to you to have that, to, to have that answer? Uh, it would be, you know, finally the end. We're going to say in a second that you guys are taking part in a new show on oxygen. And I, the reason I bring this up is I think there may be some people who are going to

hear what you're talking about now and say, wait a second, they have a new show premiering and now they have these remains and we're not sure. And is this some sort of promotion for this new show? And they're going to feel that this may be a little unsettling, maybe unsavory. How would you respond to that? TJ and I started into this 18 months ago, and we decided that at that point in time, whether we have cameras or no cameras, oxygen came on with us, and we decided that, look, you guys just watch us we want to document this and in this series you'll see in several incidences where if the camera was not

on us and then we would never be where we're at now ever there you hear natalie holloway's father still searching all these years for answers. That was him on NBC's Today Show. The reality is we know Jorn Vandersloot is the killer, the judge's son from Aruba. Just imagine sending your child on a senior trip, okay? I mean, for Pete's sake, we're having a lock-in at the church this weekend. And I can't say that I brainwashed them, but the children are not going. So, I mean, really, I think ofashed them but the children are not going okay so I mean really I think of them running up and down the steps what could happen now you send your kid away on what a four or five day trip on a boat you think nothing's gonna go wrong there

tons of chaperones and you never see her alive again. It's almost unfathomable for me to even think that, but that is what happened to Natalie Holloway's parents. Listen to Natalie's mom, Beth, also on the Today Show NBC. Listen. It's been a roller coaster in a sense, hasn't it, Beth, in that, you know, you'd get leads and I'm sure your hope soared. We're going to find out. Have you given up hope that you will find Natalie ever? Or do you think, have you given up hope on finding out

what happened to her? Two different things. Well, actually, I do think it's very possible that we could find more information. And, of course, it's up to Yaron, who obviously has the information, and he's not talking right now. But I do think that it's still possible that we could find where her remains are. Of course, I no longer believe that Natalie is alive. But I do feel that it is possible. I remember at the time that she went missing and it became evident to me that nobody

was going to do a thing about apprehending Jorn VanderSloot. That he was protected by his father and others in Aruba and that they didn't give a flying fig about an American girl. They didn't. And they did nothing to help. Nothing to help her parents. I said, I remember it, Art. This is before I knew you, Joseph Scott Morgan, that this guy would act again. And he did. He murdered and is convicted of murdering Stephanie Tassiana Flores. She met him at a casino. She's a young girl too about 21 years old beautiful girl long black hair they strike up a conversation she's found dead as a matter of fact evidence suggests that while he was sitting there in the room with her dead body he kicks back with a donut and coffee a couple of feet from her dead body from what the

evidence shows she ran a search on him while they were sitting there in the room together and pulled up the natalie holloway case and said are you this your is you? And he goes berserk and murders her, murders her in a brutal death. That's two dead girls on Jorn Vandersloot. And still, he has not been brought to justice in the death of Natalie Holloway. So question to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator and forensics professor. How long will it take to match up DNA? I mean, there's field DNA tests that's been used by the U.S. for decades at wartime. And that's immediate, immediate DNA result.

What about that? I'm thinking, Nancy, that the father, as well as this investigator, are going to want to take their time in having these samples analyzed. One of the big problems that they're going to run into is the viability of the DNA that they have, this base level dna can't you get bone marrow well you can however however considering the environment and what we refer to as taphonomy which means the distribution of the remains in their particular area and what they are exposed to that's going to create a problem as well as who comes in contact with these remains. That's not going to change the DNA, Joe Scott. I mean, I'm just a trial lawyer,

but people touching the remains is not going to change the DNA. Yes, it will. It can compromise. It can compromise the ability. It will not compromise bone marrow found inside of a bone. Well, let's say the bone marrow is no longer viable. Hold on, guys. Let's go to the lines. Let's go out to Jason in Canada. Hi, Jason. How are you, man? I'm good.

How are you doing? I'm great. I am great. Hey, what part of Canada? From what part of Canada are you calling? Finally, nice chatting with you again. Yeah. From what part of Canada are you calling?

Nova Scotia. Okay. Now, so, Jason, what do you think about this whole thing? I've got a quick question. Why wasn't Jordan charged in the connection of Halloweese as a parent? Oh, Jason in Canada. Let me tell you something. Why he wasn't charged.

Well, number one, his father, Paulus Vandersloot, was a judge, a longtime judge, an influential, longtime influential character in Aruba. Aruba isn't as big as what? It's probably about the size of maybe Ohio. Is that right, Art? The whole island? Or not even that big? Yeah, not even that big.

But, you know, he was totally influential. And you might remember, I didn't, Joran spent a night or two in the local jail, but was quickly let go. The father's house was processed. And the little house out back where Joran stayed, and my sources say where he took many young women. So this was a place that, you know, where a cover-up, you know, was grown in Petri dishes. I mean, there were so many connections. This was also a jumping off

point, Nancy, for big drug smugglers bringing things back to the states. And my DEA sources say they were, you know, they are really limited, the feds are limited in what they can do. But they were biting their tongue. What do you mean the feds

are limited in what they can do? I have friends at the children's school that are convinced the feds are listening in on their Alexa. I'm like, okay. But make a note, I need to put that in my next book. The feds limited in what they can do? Why are you even saying that, Art? No, this was a, you know, they have to have permission to come on this island and work with the police. They did provide helicopter searches for the body in the ocean area that Vander Sloot and some of his pals said, Nancy, that Natalie was either dumped or drowned in and never found anything.

But to get down on the ground and supervise these searches, you know, they don't want anybody looking under their shoulders in Aruba because there's too much to hide. Man, that's a good point. Let me ask you this about what Jason in Canada is asking. Why do you believe, other than the dad covering up for him and the mom sticking her head in the sand and her butt in the air like an ostrich, why was he never prosecuted on Natalie's disappearance? I mean, come on, Art, don't you remember when he was set up to talk that time in the SUV and he was talking and there were hidden microphones in there and he described the moment that Natalie died, that she started shaking and went into convulsions and died? I mean, how would he know that if he's not the killer?

Well, very convincing, Nancy, but has he ever told the truth about anything? And so you balance that high drama, which he later retracted. This was a great ruse by an excellent Dutch investigative reporter to get him alone, win his confidence. But he's an actor. He's a bad actor. And we don't know the veracity of that. Did T.J. Ward ever do a voice? Oh, please stop it. Stop it. You're making my ears bleed just hearing what you're saying. Because Joe Scott Morgan, come on. Every time somebody gave a confession, if they could think, oh, yeah, you know what? I was lying. I was acting. Of course. They'd be walking out of the jailhouse right now. If you could get out because you said i was lying please

stop it all right i'm a little shocked at you well wait help me out joe scott throw me a lie preserver well you know every uh they say the prisons are filled filled with innocent people so there you go uh yeah i mean every time this happens uh and uh it sounds like uh der Sloot himself is a professional con artist. And I don't know. He's got a lot of sociopathic tendencies here. He can manipulate people. And I think that in this tiny little island, he was capable of doing that. But now this international spotlight was thrown on him.

And as you earlier mentioned, you talked about his dad running off into the dark instead of facing the cameras it's uh you can quote me i said elbows oh well you know you were much more eloquent eloquent in that than i but i'm just saying that you know in that context uh they're used to you know kind of this their little kingdom their little domain there and when this this international lie that's thrown upon them, you know, the litmus test changes a little bit. Jason, did you know that it was five years to the day after Natalie's disappearance that Jorn Vandersloot killed, murdered business student Stephanie Tassiano-Flores? Five years to the day. That's one time I wish that I hadn't been right. And that was, of course, I wasn't the only one that said it, that he would strike again, because he was so young at the time he murdered Natalie and lied so well. You could tell he was

a psychopath then. I'm certainly no doctor, but even I could tell that, Jason. Yeah, he's a very scary guy. You know, Natalie's dad is saying a friend, actually an informant who lived with a friend of Jorn Vandersloot gave the tip, which has led to the remains. And I'm quoting Natalie's father. He, the informant, had information that took us to a spot where remains were found.

And we took those remains and we are having those remains tested. We chased a lot of leads and this one by far is the most credible lead I have seen in 12 years. Now, can't you look at bones and tell if it's a man or a woman? Isn't that true, Joe Scott? I mean, forensic anthropology tells us that much. Yes, they do. You know, just kind of a brief, very, very brief overview. The male bones are going to tend to be more robust than female bones, for instance.

We'll look at the pelvis. We'll look at, you know, the fine nature of the female structure as opposed to more the robust nature of the male structure. So yeah, yeah, yeah, those things can be determined just by visualizing the bones. To Art Harris, where do we go now? What do you think is happening now? Because they're not even telling this is whether these are female bones. Well, you know, first Nancy, let's go back to who was he with that night? Haven't heard mention of the Calpo brothers who claimed that he and Natalie were making out in the backseat of the car before they dropped her off. Now, let's look at some of these people who could be closest to your end and

could be finally coming forward for some reason that they didn't way back then. But, you know, you've got to wonder, who are these folks and, you know, where else, you know, what other clues might they be leading to and what are their motives? But here, who are these, you know, is there any credibility with these people? And it's like other people on the island who are close to your end, you know, when is he lying? Whenever he opens his mouth. I hate to be negative, but these were the Surinamese brothers, Deepak Kalpo and Satish, do you remember?

I remember them very well. I wish I didn't. I know, but wouldn't they be interesting to talk to if they have new memories? If they have new memories? If they have new memories? That's about right. You know, the reason that he said he went nuts that night and killed this other girl, it was the anniversary of Natalie Holloway's disappearance, and he was very stressed. That was one of the excuses.

He was so stressed, he kicked back and had a coffee in a Danish with his legs crossed on the coffee table about two feet from your dead body. I'm just reporting that the Peruvian defense lawyers comment. And that's on video. Well, we all have different grieving processes, don't we, Nancy? So I guess that was good. You know what? I've told my

children, I'm going to use the S word on you. I'm using the S word on you that we are not allowed to use in our home. Shut up. Okay. There's the S H word, which is shut up. And the S word, which is stupid, both disallowed. Listen to Natalie's dad as he reveals the latest in the search for Natalie Holloway, Alabama beauty. This investigation has yielded something significant. What is it Dave? Over a period of 18 months, TJ and I have been working together with an informant who has given us some information through a friend of Jorn Vandersloot's. And we followed that for 18 months, and I'll let TJ finish the rest. We did an 18-month undercover investigation with an informant who was friends with an individual

that had personal knowledge of Yaron Vanaslut and gathered information which took us to a spot where remains were found. We took those remains and had those remains tested and they just returned last week that they're human remains. When this informant talked to you about the place where Natalie may have been buried, did you find the remains immediately? Was it trial and error? Did you have to look for days, weeks?

You say you had 18 months here. We've been back there several times, back and forth, and he's taken us to different places, but they went there and went to a place behind a house that we had under investigation and went behind the house and dug some remains up, and those remains were turned over to us, and we had those remains tested, and they have just come back to be human remains. So we know that they're human remains.

Will there be able to be some kind of test, Dave, that will answer once and for all whether this is Natalie's? We're in the process of doing a DNA test, and that test will take several weeks to a month, and hopefully we'll know at that point in time. That is Natalie Holloway's dad revealing a blockbuster in the search for an Alabama teen, Natalie Holloway. He goes missing on her senior trip to Aruba. The trip was very heavily chaperoned. All the students were out that night at a casino. Natalie had one drink. She was not

drunk. Nothing. She had one drink. She was there with her girlfriends. And the next thing you know, after that one drink, she was in the backseat of a car with Jorn Vandersloot, the Aruban judge's son, with the Kalpoe brothers driving the car. She was never seen alive again. Right now we are taking your calls in the renewed search for Natalie Holloway, her own father. This is just not some freelance shoestring reporter out there saying they've got a big break. This is her father, Natalie's father, saying that based on a tip close to your vander sloot human remains have been found and are being processed now out to the lines brandy in oklahoma hello brandy thank you for calling in what's your comment or question well i'm i'm excited that um the the family may

have closure now um this is just a sad case. I've been following it since the beginning, and my fears are with the family, and I hope this is what they've been waiting for. Brandy, I could not agree with you more. Now you say closure. I agree and disagree in the sense that, I mean, you can't even really start grieving until you have put your loved one at rest. I mean, Brandy, you're right. There are all those reports that Natalie Holloway was kidnapped, that she was sold into human trafficking at the time. I poo-pooed it. But now that I know the statistics on human trafficking

in another part of the world especially, I may have been wrong to poo-poo it the way that I did. But in light of the fact that she was last seen with a convicted murderer, I don't think human trafficking was what happened. I think he killed her, that he raped her and killed her. That's what I think happened. So, Brandi, what do you make of Natalie's father on the Today Show announcing that they have found human remains? I'm in shock. I just can't believe it.

Like I said, I pray that, you know, that it's her. I mean, you know, like you said, you know, the family does need closure to move on. And I'm that, you know, that it's her. I mean, you know, like you said, you know, the family does need closure to move on. And I'm praying for them. It's funny, you know, Brandi in Oklahoma that you used the word, you used the words, I was shocked. Let me tell you something. The father, Natalie's dad, Dave Holloway, those were his exact words. And I'm quoting, when we determined these remains were human, I was shocked.

That's what he told Matt Lauer and my old Court TV friend, Savannah Guthrie, on the Today Show. Quote, I know there's a possibility this could be someone else, and I'm just trying to wait and see. Brandy, I couldn't help but notice a baby in the background when you were speaking is that your baby yes yes oh you lucky girl i ask the twins all the time can't you just get back at mommy's tummy and we start over and do it all again oh my stars i know you're probably exhausted right now taking care of a baby but i'm telling you these are the best years of my life. And can you imagine pouring all your love into that baby, all your hopes for them, all your dreams for them, and then some a-hole like Jorn Vandersloot enters the picture

and everything goes dark. Can you even imagine that? Horrible. I don't even want to imagine that. I mean, I just, so sad. You know, Brandy in Oklahoma, in all my spare time, I actually stay up nights and try to finish it.

I do photo albums of the twins, and I go through and I, you know, write what this was and what that was so they'll have it when they grow up and they can look back on it when they're much older and when I think of looking in that shelf and what Natalie's parents go through it ends at age 18 that was it 18 summers 18 Christmases that's And it's over. And I know that they probably tortured themselves. Like, why did I let her go on the trip? That was wrong. What was I thinking? Brandy, thank you for calling in. We're all on pins and needles and many prayers have gone up

regarding Natalie Holloway. I want to go back to Art Harris. What's going to happen now? Where do you think this thing is going? I don't think this is a stunt. I really don't because I feel that I know Natalie's parents after reporting on this and speaking to them over all this time trying to help find Natalie. I don't think they would do a stunt. I really don't. And, you know, the mom, Natalie's mom, Beth, a lot of people called it a stunt, but I don't think it was a stunt.

When, I can't remember who it was, but a camera crew made it possible for her to get access to Jorn Vandersloot in jail after he murdered Stephanie Tassiano-Flores. And she confronted him on camera about, I think it was a hidden camera, but about what happened to Natalie, hoping that, at least for some kind of closure, like Brandy just mentioned, that he would tell her at least where was Natalie. It didn't work, and I don't think that was a stunt. I think that they, the camera crew, enabled it to happen, got access, got tickets, got her there,

you know, was with her during the process. I don't think this is a stunt. I really don't, Art. No, that was a brilliant try, Nancy. Anything to pry things loose. And I, you know, I would love to see her or the father go and try to find the guys he was with that night to see if they might have had a change of heart for all. We know they could be the secret sources, but there was a discrepancy, you might remember, in where supposedly Natalie was dropped off. Remember, the Kalpa brothers initially told police it was at the Holiday Inn where they were staying. Well, a guard at the Holiday Inn later, who was in jail for a while, talked to the brothers and said that, oh no, they dropped her off 10 blocks north near the Marriott.

And one report said that that's perhaps where she was buried. So I don't know what dumping ground this is supposed to be, but there are so many conflicting stories. Why not go back to the only witnesses or the only friends that claim Vander Sloot was a running buddy and talk to them again. I think that would be something. So, Joe Scott Morgan, they still aren't revealing if it's even a female bone. Do you remember that earlier on in this case, bones were found and it turned out to be an animal bone? Do you remember that?

Yes, yes, I do, Nancy. I certainly do. So how do I know what this is? Well, yes, I do, Nancy. I certainly do. So how do I know what this is? Well, that's the rub, as they say. The idea is that hopefully, hopefully, they have gotten these remains into the hands of someone who knows what they're doing. That's going to be a well-respected forensic anthropologist, those individuals that observe the bones and make that determination. And then on top of that, get these bones into the hands of a reputable DNA scientist that can extract the DNA appropriately. If I could just go back a second,

talking about kind of blending in with what ark was talking about from an investigative standpoint this is if this does in fact turn out to be natalie's remains nancy and they are at this location this is a huge piece of information or or or evidence that can be used as leverage from an investigative standpoint because now you have a specific geographic location where you can tie specific people to that location, such as the owner of the property, the people that frequent that location. So it's like a gigantic sweater is kind of what I teach my students at Jacksonville State. If you pull on that string, which your mom always tells you not to, the whole thing begins to come unraveled. And you know this as a prosecutor.

All it takes is to find that one string. And the fact that they're found at a specific location ties it back to a bigger picture that hopefully will be revealed if, in fact, they have handled these remains appropriately. Right now, we apparently are still on standby to determine the truth about this, this discovery in the Natalie Holloway case. But Art, when you think about it, again, this is her own father saying this, not some reporter trying to make a buck. It is there on the island of Aruba. And the father says, Dave Holloway says, it is human remains.

It is human remains. It is human remains. Well, Joe, I'd be fascinated to know how you can tell the difference between human remains or human bones and animal bones. But somebody has determined that per the father. And this has been an 18-month investigation, he has said. So it's not just a drive-by, let's get some dirt and see what's down there. They have apparently analyzed this to be able to find out what they have found. I agree. You know, that number kept coming up 18 months, 18 months. That's a long time, man. And if they've had these remains, I don't know how long they've had these remains and who has taken a look at them, who has handled them. That's a big question in my mind.

It's not that I'm skeptical as much as I am. I'm a pragmatist here. Well, here's the other thing. I hate the disappointment for the family if it turns out not to be Natalie because there have been so many false leads. In fact, just recently, a RUBA prosecutor said that another tip about her location turned out to be false. They had just received a tip from a man who claimed to be a witness to her disappearance. And that man had been identified as Urien de Jong.

He insisted Holloway was buried under a staircase at Marriott Hotel in Aruba. That turned out to be false. Of course, the whole team flew there. And the hotel's spyglass tower and staircase was built neither the tower nor the staircase was was there when Holloway went missing and after all the drama surrounding that the times didn't work out where the witness said she was buried. That didn't even exist at the time she went missing. It's just been one thing after the next for Natalie Holloway's family. And I just pray, pray that their nightmare is over.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast. Goodbye, friend.