Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - NEW BOOK LEADS TO PASTOR’S ARREST IN MURDER OF GIRL, 8, WALKING TO BIBLE CAMP

Episode Date: September 15, 2023

Eight-year-old Gretchen Harrington leaves home, walking to vacation bible school at a church just a half mile from her home. Usually, Gretchen is accompanied by her two sisters, but this day, she walks alone. The older girls stay home.  It was just after  9 a.m. when Pastor Harold Harrington waved goodbye. Two hours passed before he found out Gretchen never made it to VBS. Hundreds of people took part in the search for the little girl. A police helicopter continuously flew overhead.  Teams of searchers combed the hillside of the community.  Friends and family hand out fliers with Gretchen’s picture on it. Some witnesses said they had seen Gretchen outside a car, talking to someone, but nothing came of the lead. Two months later, a jogger found the skeletonized human remains of a little girl. The Harringtons confirmed the clothing found with the body as Gretchen’s. It was only 20 minutes from her home.  Gretchen’s manner of death is ruled a homicide. The girl's skull has been fractured by multiple vicious blows. An autopsy does not reveal sex assault, but police believe that was the motive.  Now, years later, a new book leads to the capture of a murderer.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Joanna Falcone Sullivan - Co-author: ‘Marple’s Gretchen Harrington Tragedy: Kidnapping, Murder and Innocence Lost in Suburban Philadelphia’, Editor in chief, Baltimore Business Journal; Facebook: Gretchen Harrington: Innocence Lost in Suburban Philadelphia    Jarrett Ferentino - Homicide Prosecutor, Facebook & Instagram: Jarrett Ferentino   Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski - Forensic Psychologist, Author: “Darksides;" FB: forensicsandmediapsychologist/TikTok: Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski   Brandon M. Graeff - Chief of Police with Marple Township Police Department in Broomall, PA;@marplepolice on Facebook, X, and Instagram Dr. Karl E. Williams, MD, MPH - Chief Medical Examiner for Allegheny County, PA  Audrey Conklin- Crime Reporter for Fox News Digital, Twitter: @audpants  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Vacation Bible School. I certainly went to Vacation Bible School every single summer, as have my children, and we've loved it. But how does a simple walk to VBS turn into murder? Murder for an eight-year-old little girl? And how does a book written years later shed light on this child's disappearance and gruesome death? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online.

It's a summertime ritual for many, Vacation Bible School. And that's where eight-year-old Gretchen Harrington was headed. She left home, planning to walk the half-mile to Trinity Christian Reformed Church and then on to nearby Broomall Reformed Presbyterian Church. Gretchen's dad was a pastor there. Gretchen walked alone. Usually she was accompanied by her two sisters, but this day the older girls decided to stay home to see a newborn sister their

mom was bringing home. Two hours passed before Pastor Harrington found out Gretchen never made it to VBS. Trinity's pastor and his wife were working the Vacation Bible School program, and they knew Gretchen well. One of their daughters was Gretchen's best friend. After speaking with Gretchen's father, the pastor called police as Gretchen's father had asked. As the day got dark around 8 p.m., no sign of Gretchen. Wow, I cannot even imagine. So a short walk turns into a disappearance. Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, I want to go out to Audrey Conklin, crime reporter with Fox News Digital. Audrey, thank you so much for being with us. Tell me where this happened and how far this eight-year-old little girl had to walk. This happened in Marple Township, Pennsylvania, which is a suburb of Philadelphia, where, as I have learned, a lot of people, a lot of families moved to kind of escape urban crime.

And the walk wasn't far. Her father was actually a pastor at one of the churches that was part of this Bible camp. So he watched her leave home every morning and walk to camp. And on that morning, for some reason, he just turned around and didn't see her finish her walk up the road. Now, this is just so reminiscent of the disappearance of little Eitan Patz, who the first day he was to walk to school, and I believe it's only one or two blocks. And they had been practicing and practicing. The very first day that he used to walk to school, he is kidnapped and murdered. Again, with me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know

right now. But interesting to Jarrett Ferarentino joining me, high profile homicide prosecutor joining us out of the Pennsylvania jurisdiction. Jarrett, in a world where it should be safe to let your child walk one block or two blocks, it's not. It's really not safe at all, Jarrett. It can happen anywhere, any place at any time. And it looks like this little girl and she was targeted. She was alone that day. There was a lot going on at their home. It's just horrifying here in Pennsylvania and anywhere when this happens. What can you tell me about this particular area, Jarrett Fiorentino? Is it rural? Are there, uh, is there a dense population? Is it wooded? Is it farmland? What is

it? It's less rural today than it was then, but it certainly was, Nancy, an escape. A place where people and families such as this would go to to escape the rigors of the city and the dangers of the city, quite honestly. You know, a child should be safe in any community, particularly this one, to walk to Bible school. Even now, Broomall only has a population of 10,789. That was a couple of years ago that census was taken. But it's still a very, very small area. Joining me right now, Brandon M. Grafe,

special guest chief of police in the Marple Township PD there in Broomall. You can find him at MarplePolice.com. Chief, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. I believe that the case of this little girl, Gretchen Harrington, has hung like a pall, like a specter over the police department. When you first came in as chief, were you familiar with Gretchen's case? Oh, yes. Not only when I became chief in 2020, but when I got hired here in Marple, it was a, you know, one of three unsolved serious cases, homicides,

that were part of the lure of this police department. And of course, with an eight-year-old girl as the victim, it ranks right at the top of those that really stick in the crawl. You know, it's true that certain cases define certain areas, like Atlanta is always associated with the Wayne Williams serial killings, where dozens of children and teens go missing and are murdered by Wayne Williams. It goes on. For instance, people associate, let's just see, Ted Bundy with the Chi Omega killings, although he started out West. You associate Scott Peterson with Modesto. It's a horrible stigma to be attached to any particular town, but that was the impact of the disappearance

of this eight-year-old little girl on her way to Bible school of all places. Take a listen to our friend Dave Mack. Hundreds of people took part in the search for the little girl. A police helicopter continuously flew overhead. Teams of searchers combed the hillside of the community. Friends and family handed out flyers with Gretchen's picture on it. Some witnesses said they had seen Gretchen outside a car talking to someone, but nothing came of the lead. Just two days after she disappeared with little to go on, police called off the large scale search. You know, I don't know if we're more familiar with the ways of the world now, but when I see a kid outside a car, I always stop.

I just stop and I watch to see what happened, what will happen, because I'm just so indoctrinated in cars snatching children. But at the time Gretchen was snatched off the street, no one thought a thing about it. And then a gruesome discovery. Listen. Two months after Gretchen left for vacation Bible school, a jogger found skeletonized human remains of a little girl. The Harringtons confirmed the clothing found with the body as Gretchen's. It was only 20 minutes from her home. Dental records were used to positively identify the

remains. Gretchen's manner of death was ruled a homicide. The girl's skull had been fractured by multiple vicious blows. An autopsy did not reveal sex assault, but police believed that was the motive. Police received numerous tips, but none lead to a suspect. Joining me right now, renowned medical examiner, the chief medical examiner for Allegheny County, Dr. Carl Williams, and FYI, Allegheny County is in Pennsylvania, where Gretchen was kidnapped and murdered. Dr. Williams, thank you for being with us. Pleasure. Dr. Williams, a couple of questions

about the discovery of Gretchen's body. Now, we know that even though hundreds of people had taken part in the search for this little girl combing the hillside of the community, it was two months after she goes missing, a jogger finds her skeletonized remains. She was identified by her clothing and by dental records. Is it odd that she is totally skeletonized in just two months? No, depending on the season, that can happen in a matter of weeks very easily. But that's not surprising. That's not surprising at all. You know, we're so used to watching programs on TV and blockbuster movies where all sorts of high

tech is used. The truth is that's not truth. It's not like that. Very often IDs are made from clothing. IDs are made from dental records. And then if we can get DNA, we do. How is the identification of a body made through dental records, Dr. Williams? Well, you really don't even need dental records in this case because your dentition was so intact and so obvious from the photographs. But that with the combination of the distinctive clothing, the braids and the hair, it was a pretty easy identification. They say dental records. I'm not even sure if she had records, but you wouldn't even need it because of the distinctive nature of the incisors and things.

It was a pretty straightforward identification. What do you mean by the distinctive features of the incisors? She had two large incisors gaps on either side in the photographs. Okay. So just as a matter of the stage of dentition. So I didn't see any specific records. I didn't see any specific reference to dental records other than dental identification. So having the pictures, having the incisors found in the skull and things, that would have been sufficient. Again, very distinctive braids

in the hair, very distinctive clothes. I don't think there was any question whatsoever about the identification. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace It's very curious to me, Dr. Carl Williams, that you have mentioned the gap next to her incisors. I noticed the same thing. It looks like she still had her baby teeth in some of them. You're absolutely right. Just seeing the photograph and comparing that with what would have been seen in the skeletonized remains,

I would not have had any problem in making the identification. For those of you that cannot see what Dr. Williams and I are talking about, I'm looking at a picture of this, I mean, just a precious, precious little girl, the daughter of a Presbyterian minister and his wife who goes missing mid-August on her way to Bible school at Trinity Church Chapel. She's got a big smile. And when he's saying the gap beside her incisors, on either side of the nose, if you come straight down, there is a big noticeable gap to the side on her right side of her front teeth. A big gap between that and it's on the top and the bottom.

When she smiles, it kind of makes a diamond shape of a gap. It's very noticeable and you see her adult teeth her adult front two teeth have come in but from their back it looks like she this little child still has her baby teeth and there's a big gap between the front teeth and the beginning of the other teeth. Now, the incisor, isn't that basically your fangs? Yeah, exactly. Okay. Now I see what you're saying. It's a big gap between the front tooth and the incisor, your vampire fang. Got it. It's very noticeable. And I'm sure when her grown teeth would come in, that would have straightened up. But this little child never even got her adult teeth. This little baby girl still had her baby teeth. I'm curious.

Do we know Audrey Conklin or Dr. Carl Williams? Was she clothed? Well, she was clothed when she was found because she was partially identified based on her clothing. Is that right, Audrey Conklin? Yes, I believe part of her clothing was ripped damaged in some way. Did you say ripped? Yeah. There goes Dr. Williams. Go ahead, doctor. Well, I was going to say you can't tell again by the clothes because they'd be associated again with the decomposition. And it was August. And in August, a matter of weeks is more than enough to cause the skeletonization. The clothes typically would be at least a part of that.

So everything, everything fits in a way. And why she was not found, I can't say. Back to Dr. Jeff Kalaszewski, renowned psychologist joining us, author of Dark Sides. You can find him on TikTok at Dr. Jeff Kaliszewski. Doctor, I mean, I need to shrink. Because why would the perp fold up the child's clothes next to her naked body and put her underwear up in a tree? Well, it's I'll tell you when you look at. So this area in the research is

called sexual homicide. And we know a lot more about sexual homicide with adult victims than we actually do about child victims. One thing that we do know in the research is that typically with sexual homicide child victims, this tends to be more of a crime of opportunity and not as well planned out. So what we see in sexual homicide of child cases is a lot of times the perpetrator has not really figured it all out and hadn't really premeditated a plan. You know, in a situation where he folds the clothes and puts the underwear in the tree, it's obvious that he wanted to signal so that the child would be found, which just offers more questions rather than any answers about his motivation behind the crime. And Dr. Koleshevsky, another question.

The perp left her there uncl and closed out in the woods with her underwear hanging up in a branch like a flag but he made rudimentary steps in trying to cover up her body that's something I've always been curious about dr. Kaleshev ski a killer's attempt to hide particularly the face now I understand burying a body because you don't want it to be found. But he didn't do a very good job. He was more hiding part of her, hiding her with like leaves. What is the phenomenon of killers trying to cover the faces of their victims?

In situations, particularly when there's a sexual homicide, I mean, I've seen a lot of cases myself where killers do various things to people's faces. I had a case where a guy superglued the victim's eyes shut. And when I asked him about it, he talked about how it was unpleasant for him to see the victim's face, particularly when the victim was alive. So the motivation behind the idea of not covering the face or covering the face, you know, it really has to do with in that moment

what the murderer is sort of getting out of that experience and what they don't want to be exposed to. I understand. I'm thinking about this little 8-year-old girl and what she lived through before her murder. And then seemingly out of the blue, we hear from an author, an author, Joanna Falcone Sullivan. Take a listen to our friends at KYW-TV. Joanna was nine years old and living in Broomall, Delaware County when eight-year-old Gretchen

Harrington was kidnapped while walking to a vacation Bible school less than a quarter mile from her home. Gretchen's body was found by a jogger in a state park nearly two months later. The case has always haunted this journalist, so she wrote the book detailing the ongoing investigation. I had wanted to write this story for decades. And more. Listen. I grew up in Broomall. My co-author, Mike Mathis, grew up in Broomall as well. He grew up in Lawrence Park where this happened. It affected both of us as kids and it affected a lot of kids our age. We started interviewing people. We went to Marple Police Department and went through the file repeatedly. And joining me right now, that author, Joanna Falcone Sullivan, co-author of Marple's

Gretchen Harrington Tragedy, Kidnapping, Murder and Innocence Lost in Suburban Philadelphia. Wow. That title really says it all. Joanne, I've got so many questions for you. But first of all, thank you for being with us. And tell me how Gretchen's disappearance, her kidnap, her assault and murder affected you as a child growing up in the same area? It's one of those things that never left my mind. I remember that day very vividly, and so does Mike, my co-author. We talked about it over the years. We ran into each other at a high school reunion, and we talked about writing the book together. And, you know, it was something that I remember so clearly. I remember following the story over the years and it always was so sad

to me because things really seemed to change after that for a lot of, you know, families. How did things change um i think you know people we had the feeling that we were so safe we were invincible in this you know at this time and after this i remember you know thinking when people would say oh it was so great to be able to ride your bikes till midnight and don't come in until the dinner bell sound. And, you know, I hear people of my generation saying that. And all I could think of was Gretchen Harrington. You know, it was not true. It was not, you know, you were not so safe all the time.

You know, it's interesting what you're saying, Joanna. Guys with me, Joanna Falcone Sullivan, the co-author of a definitive book on Gretchen's, eight-year-old Gretchen's disappearance and murder. Joanna, I would walk home from Bible school and home from school. We'd catch a bus or a ride to get there in the mornings, but would walk home. It was over a mile, but both my parents would be gone to work by then. And nobody thought a thing about it. And yes, we could ride our bikes until literally we heard the chimes in the church steeple. And that would mean it was about six o'clock and we needed to go home. Or we'd hear my mom or dad toot the car horn in the distance. And we would know that was our horn and we had to come home because we'd be so far away. And it was absolutely fine. But the reality is, in many places, it's not.

I mean, it would be through hell and high water that I would let my children go out at age eight and walk anywhere by themselves, period. End of story. But I guess that's because of the business I'm in. Most people are very trusting, as were Gretchen's parents. I mean, she had such a short distance to go from where her dad was pastor to the next church over for Bible school. Who would have thought in that short space?

Now, Joanna Falcone Sullivan, author of Marple's Gretchen Harrington Tragedy. Joanna, you said you remember the day so clearly when you learned about Gretchen's disappearance. What is your recollection? My recollection is we were at our swim club called the Lawrence Park Swim Club, not far from where

Gretchen was abducted. And we started seeing a helicopter flying over the woods behind the swim club. So of course, everyone was curious, you know, what's going on. You know, we didn't know until we got home that day that a little girl was missing. And that stuck with me. We ended up, the first chapter starts with that helicopter. And we discovered over the years that it was the same memory that so many people had. Mike and I talked to so many people and they remember that day with the helicopter. The next day, Mike remembers his dad took part in the search. There were hundreds of community members, volunteer firefighters, police from other jurisdictions participating in the search. And they combed the area. They combed the creek area, the woods behind.

There were a lot more woods back then. But, you know, so that those days were very vivid. I also remember her being found because there was always that hope that maybe she would be found alive. And that October day when she was found, I remember and seeing it in the papers. I was a newshound then as well and read the Philadelphia papers and the local Delaware County papers. And I remember that very clearly. You know, Joanna, just the way you describe that just runs chills down me that you remember seeing the helicopters overhead and then finding out a couple of months later, the hope that

she was alive somewhere and then finding out that her remains had been found. I've got a question for you, Joanna, and maybe Chief Grafe can answer. Chief of Police there in Marple Township, did searchers search that area of woods where her body was ultimately found? Do either of you know? No. Where she was found was, I think it was the crow flies, probably about five miles away. Okay.

I'll tell you what I was worried about, Chief. I was worried that she was held captive. If they had searched that area and didn't find her, and then two months later, a jogger finds her in that same area, that is even worse because that would have meant he kept her alive, raping her and sodomizing her for a period of time, and then went and put her body out there, hanging her underwear up in a tree so she would be found. That is an even worse scenario. So I'm glad to hear that. Guys, with us, an all-star panel, including the woman who takes the case on based on memories. She had Gretchen going missing on her walk to Bible school and then really digging in to find the truth.

But then out of nowhere, a break. Take a listen, our friends at Crime Online. Years pass before a case-busting phone call comes into the Marple Township headquarters. A woman says she thinks she knows who killed Gretchen. The officer contacts state police. An interview is set up. The woman spoke of her diaries kept as a little girl and about an incident that happened at Pastor David Zanstra's home.

The woman was friends with the pastor's daughters. During a sleepover, she said she woke up to Pastor Zanstra touching her private area. She moved and says he immediately rushed from the room. But the next night, it happened again. She mentioned what happened to her friend, and they said basically he does that sometimes. The girl told her parents it was the last time she stayed at the Zanstra's home. Police came to believe that incident happened one week before Gretchen disappeared. Okay, Audrey Conklin joining us, investigative reporter with Fox News Digital.

What? All the parents did was say, okay, well, you can't stay over there anymore. Nobody brought a case against this guy? And am I getting it right, he's a pastor? Yes, he was a pastor and I believe a pretty well-known member of the community. I don't know exactly how parents handled these accusations from his daughter's friend. But I guess, I guess according to, you know, her account, it was kind of pushed under the rug joining me is the chief of police there

in Marple Township Chief Brandon M Grafe tell me about what happened tell me about what this little girl said well we got a phone call from from her in January of this year and she spoke with or a sergeant of detectives Nick Clawson and him about the diary, told him about her suspicions. And his answer, his name had been peppered throughout the file, although nothing that would draw anyone's attention, you know, five, 10, 40 years later during the investigations or the relooks and looking back into it. So we took the information and frankly, because of Joanna and Mike's work on the book, I had reached out to the state police barracks, the cold case unit who was handling the murder investigation.

So even before this woman called us, you know, the balls was rolling, you know, a little faster, I'll say, you know, the interest was peaked again between us and the state police. So, you know, it was kind of like a perfect storm because they had, you know, continued to look into it or, you know, their investigators, you know, I would say probably put it more at the top of the list of their cold cases. And then this woman calls fortuitously and we get them the information. And, you know, off it went. I'm with you, Chief Grafe. I do not believe there are coincidences in criminal law. So Joanna Falcone Sullivan and her co-author publish Marple's Gretchen Harrington tragedy,

kidnapping, murder and innocence lost in suburban Philadelphia. That is published. I think it was in October. And then in January, this woman calls in to recount what happened to her. Do I have the timeline correct, Chief? Yes, ma'am. Yes, you do. OK, so no coincidence. Take a listen to our friends at KYW-TV. Today, police invited us along as they looked for a report filed by a mom who told officers back then a stranger attempted to kidnap her son near Westchester Pike and New Ardmore Avenue. Chief Brandon Grafe.

A man pulled up in a car, opened the trunk, got out, and actually grabbed her brother. And they just knew he was going to, with the intention of kidnapping him. Police are still looking for that incident report that goes back to the 1970s concerning that attempted kidnapping. An eyewitness to the crime first contacted us here at CBS News Philadelphia concerned about the information she knew from way back when about that attempted kidnapping. So you've got Gretchen, eight-year-old Gretchen, kidnapped, sex assaulted, and murdered. You've got another little girl who was molested at the hands of a pastor at a sleepover. And now you've got a little boy who was the victim of an attempted kidnapping in a vehicle. How many other victims are out there?

And then finally, take a listen to our Cut 13 KYW TV. Prosecutors say Zanstra, a one-time reverend, moved around a lot. The results of a DNA test are pending and will be entered into a national database to determine possible connections to other investigations. My mind goes to the places that he's lived at, you know, for the past 48 years, Texas, California, Georgia. You know, this generally is not somebody who doesn't do this one time. Truer words were never spoken.

And now listen to Fox 5, our cut one. He's accused of murdering 8-year-old Gretchen Harrington. And Zantra, at the time, had been working as a pastor at a Pennsylvania church in August of 1975. Police tell us that Gretchen left her home to go to Bible camp that was hosted by that very same church. And that's when investigators say Zanstra, who was also a family friend of the Harrington's, abducted her, took her to the woods, and beat her to death when she refused to take off her clothes.

It took them about two months to find her body. Back to our friend joining us from Fox News Digital, Audrey Conklin. Audrey, what is the understanding now of what happened to Gretchen? We understand now that Gretchen was sought out by Zantra and attacked and left for dead, unfortunately. And he went on to live the rest of his life. He had a family. He was 83 years old at the time of his arrest. So he flew under the radar for decades. But police paint a very different picture of him as opposed to the image of a

loving and benevolent local pastor. Take a listen to our cut for Joe Holden. Police painted a picture of an evil man who they say lured Gretchen to his car, attempted to molest her, and then beat her to death when she refused to give in to his demands. Her remains were located months later at Ridley Creek State Park. He killed this poor eight-year-old girl he knew and who trusted him, and then he acted as if he was a family friend, not only during her burial and the period after that, but for years. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Carl E. Williams joining us, Chief Medical Examiner, Allegheny County, there in Pennsylvania.

Dr. Williams, I know that you have literally performed thousands and thousands of autopsies. How is it different for you to perform an autopsy on a little girl? Yeah, children are always difficult for emotional reasons. I mean, the technology, what you have to do, what you have to document is all pretty much the same. It's hard to separate it from the emotional content of dealing with a child. So that's about all I can say. You know, you can do thousands of autopsies and still have kind of an emotional response to certain types of cases. So it's difficult. Isn't it true, Chief Grafe, that it was the defendant himself that called 911?

Yes, it was. As sick as it makes you feel. Yeah, he was. And just like District Attorney Stolzheimer said in his news conference, you know, really is the epitome of evil. You know, he played himself as the good family friend that he was and that the Harringtons believed him to be. But he was the one that called. Take a listen now. We're cut F. Zanstra told troopers he offered Gretchen a ride that day, which she accepted, but Zanstra didn't drive toward the church. Realizing it, Gretchen asked to go home. Zanstra described how he took her to a wooded area

where she refused his demands for her to take off her clothes. That's when Zanstra attacked, beating the girl in the head with his fist, killing her. He covered her half-naked body with sticks in the woods before resuming his life. Jarrett Fiorentino joining me, a renowned homicide prosecutor. Jarrett, so often the molester or the killer of children is a trusted family friend, a relative, a member of the neighborhood that no one would ever suspect. We know, Nancy, those predators, they operate in many instances on trust. And it looks like

Danstra built that trust both with this family and this little girl before and after. That's part of their weapon, that trust both in the community and oftentimes with their victims. And this case is no different. Now, she's been asked many times if she believes her book brought about this arrest. Take a listen to our friends at KYW on our cut eight. When asked if she believes her book may have helped police get the break they needed to make an arrest in this case nearly 50 years later. We've been told that by Marple Police and we're encouraged that we somehow contributed to this. We got people talking again. Well, this was Joanna's first book, but she says she does plan to revise and edit this true crime story here to now reflect the arrest and any updated information

about this case. Joanna Falcone Sullivan joining us along with Chief Brandon M. Grafe. Joanna, you're too modest. I agree with the chief that it's no coincidence. Your book comes out and then the other little girl, now grown woman, comes forward. It's amazing. In retrospect, how do you feel about the journey you've been through investigating this case? We never imagined this kind of outcome. You know, we had hoped that maybe it would shed some light on the case. We had named a prime suspect who died in jail. We were hoping, you know, eventually DNA evidence would come, you know, help solve this. So we never imagined this. We had hoped for this. And, you know, in many ways, I'm relieved. I mean, the family will never, you know, they'll never get over it. You know, but hopefully they've found some peace.

I imagine it's really hard, the fact that it was someone, it could be somebody they knew and trusted. Again, you are too humble and too modest. You and your co-author have done an amazing, amazing thing. Of course, it could not have been done without the Marple Police. Correct. Chief Grafe, when you reflect on this, yes, justice was slow in coming, but it came. It finally came. And, you know, the wheels of justice, we all know they grind.

They grind slowly. But honestly, they don't stop, especially in cases like this. They don't stop. When you're advocating for an eight-year-old girl who can no longer speak for herself, it's our job then to take that baton and speak for her and her family and do everything we can to see that she can rest truly in peace. You know, Chief Grafe, I remember going to so many crime scenes and visiting with so many crime victims' families.

And I would go to their home and they'd sit me down somewhere, usually in the living room, and I could tell it was the best chair. And they would look at me, expecting me to pull some kind of magic trick and make everything OK. And I would always leave feeling like crap because I couldn't make everything OK again. People look to law enforcement as if we're going to have all the answers and we're going to find the person in a timely manner and justice will proceed. And at the end of the day, they're going to feel better. But we're not magicians. We can't work miracles, Chief. I'm just amazed at what your force has done, of course, with the help of Joanna Falcone-Solomon. It's amazing to me this case was

ever solved. Yeah, thank you. And it is a team effort. It always has been and was. You know, as law enforcement, we grapple with, you know, the responsibility of everyone expects prevention, right? We want to prevent crime from happening. We know that's not possible. So the best we can do is once a crime happens, you know, now our responsibility is to do everything we can to get justice for victims. We don't know what we don't know as far as prevention. You know, we don't know what we prevent, but, you know, cases like this, and I honestly can speak for all law enforcement here, cases like this don't ever get dusty. They really don't. You know, to Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski joining us, renowned forensic psychologist and author of Dark Sides.

Dr. Jeff, you know, I was listening to Joanna Falcone-Solomon just a few moments ago talking about trying to help the family. And it does help the family. It does. If she ever wonders, if you ever wonder, Joanna, you have no idea how much justice and resolution means. But Dr. Keleshefsky, I want to be clear about one thing as a victim of violent crime myself. It changes you forever. You never, quote, get over it.

It changes you. It just changes your DNA, kind of. I've had people come up to me and say, you know, you're nothing like you used to be before Keith was murdered, my fiance. I don't even remember that girl, Dr. Keleshefsky. I don't even remember what they described to me as how I was then and now. It affects everything for the rest of your life. It absolutely does. And I think you really hit the nail on the head. You don't get over something like this. When I would work doing treatment with folks who've been victims of crime, you have to try to help them get past it as well as they can. But you're absolutely right. You're fundamentally changed as a person after something like this.

But step number one, and at least moving forward with your life in some fashion, not the way you were before, but in some fashion, is a resolution to what happened to the person you loved. And you, Joanna Falcone Sullivan, and you, Chief Brandon M. Grafe in your department, have given that to this child's family. And there are no words to thank you. Okay, one down, 10 million to go. Goodbye, friend.