Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - New dad working second job GUNNED DOWN BY HEARTLESS TEEN GIRL OVER PIZZA $

Episode Date: January 4, 2021

Two people are dead after an attempted robbery goes wrong. 37-year-old Joshua Ungersma makes a delivery to what is found to be an abandoned house where he meets 17-year-old Jaelynn Billups and her 19-year-old boyfriend Alberto Vanmeter.Vanmeter is shot by Ungerma, who has a concealed carry permit, defending himself. The delivery driver reportedly crossed the street and asked witnesses to call the police. At that point, Billups allegedly shot him at point-blank range.Joining Nancy Grace today: Ashley Willcott - Judge and trial attorney, Anchor on Court TV, www.ashleywillcott.com  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, ww.drbethanymarshall.com Sheryl McCollum - Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author of"Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network Alexis Terezchuck - Crime Online Investigative Reporter   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A young father takes a second job to support his family, literally working day and night. The night job as a pizza delivery person. There he became the unwitting victim of a murder plot. Delivering pizzas was a second job for Josh. His primary job was working as a meat cutter for Payless Supermarkets. He worked at this store for over a decade.

His co-workers were devastated for the husband and father of an infant son. How could that happen? How, you know, all he ever wanted to do was take care of his family. That's the only reason he had that second job was so he could provide and his wife could take care of the baby and his stepson and that's all he cared about. Josh was killed less than a mile from the stores he worked at in his own neighborhood and his manager's neighborhood. There is no more well not in my neighborhood. Nobody can say that anymore. It's sad, but it's true. So we just, we take it and we learn from it and see what we need

to do to improve so that situation doesn't happen again. You are hearing our friend Rich Nye at WTHR 13 News. People in the neighborhood stating they'll take from it and learn what they can. But what about his wife? What about his children, his very young children to be raised without a father, without a dad and without those two incomes? How are they going to be supported? All because of one screwed up murder plot hatched to get money from a pizza delivery guy. And now a whole family is left devastated. What are they supposed to take from that and move on?

Again, thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Let me introduce to you an all-star panel to help us understand what has happened. With me, Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, anchor at Court TV. You can find her at ashleywilcott.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us from LA, a renowned psychoanalyst. You can find her at AshleyWilcott.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us from LA, a renowned psychoanalyst. You can find her at DrBethanyMarshall.com. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, now Emmy winner. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, now the star of Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network. But first, to my longtime friend and colleague, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Alexis Tereszczuk.

Alexis, take a listen to WTHR 13. Lafayette police were called to this address just after 11 p.m. last night. When they arrived, they found two men shot and killed in the street. One of them was a Domino's pizza delivery driver. The Domino's store less than a mile away confirms 37-year-old Josh Ungersma was making deliveries last night. Josh was a delivery driver for us for over a year. He was a great guy and a great employee who was working a second job to provide for his family. 19-year-old Alberto Van Meter was apparently shot and killed first at the scene. Neighbor Patrick Gibson heard the shots from inside his house next door. After I came out, after I heard the first four shots, the kid was already dead. So I don't know who shot the first four shots or whatever.

Then Gibson says he witnessed a teenage girl shoot the driver. I would never have thought once in my life I would see something like this happen, like right there in my eye, somebody getting shot and killed, or like somebody dead like right there in my face. Investigator reporter Alexis Tereszczuk with me. Hold on, Alexis. I just had a thought. Dr. Bethany Marshall, you know, I just heard for the first time a fact that the pizza delivery address, the shooting, the murder was just one mile from the pizza parlor itself. Dr. Bethany, when you think of pizza delivery guy in danger, you think they're speeding to a delivery. Now think of this,

just a regular night working a second job to support his wife and children, worked all days in meat cutter, pizza delivery at night, one mile away, he never came home. Nancy, you would also think there's a sense of familiarity in that neighborhood. So he must have known something about the neighborhood in which he was working. But back to your point about the calm, the peacefulness, the familiarity we feel in our own surroundings, think about the statistic that most children who are murdered or kidnapped are found within three-quarters of miles of the family home. Think about the number of domestic homicide victims who are secreted inside the home in which they lived. We think of home as a safe place, but perpetrators also lurk close to our

homes and to their own homes, and they seek familiar places as well. So crimes are not always out on the freeway or, you know, at a rest stop late at night. Often they're within your own familiar surroundings, which is what happened here. To Alexis Tereshchuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, the familiarity that Dr. Bethany Marshall is describing really strikes me. Here's a guy out working a second job, everything going, SOP, standard operating procedure. All of a sudden, bam, he's never coming home to his family again. Who is this teen girl? What happened?

So her name is Jalene Billups. She is 17 years old. She and her boyfriend, Alberto Benmeter, who was 19 years old, came up with a plan to rob a Domino's delivery guy. They went to her house, not even her own house. Wait, wait, wait, right there, right there. Correct me if I'm wrong, Cheryl McCollum, Director of Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl, don't the pizza delivery people have a sign, I never carry over, what, $50, something like that? Absolutely. And Nancy, with COVID, most people don't even take cash anymore.

Everything is your debit card or a credit card. So here's a guy with practically no cash, even before COVID. They would very often, if not always, have a sign in the window. Joe Scott, I seem to see that all the time. We don't carry over, what, $50 cash. It's very clear. Why would you target a pizza guy with nothing? They're vulnerable, Nancy. I've worked cases involving pizza drivers and taxicab drivers over the course of my career. And they all turned out like this. They were like, they essentially, because you've got the element of surprise.

This guy's rolling up to what the authorities have deemed as an abandoned house, and they know what they're dragging this guy into. They're going to ambush him. Hey, his hands are full. He's got, you know, if you've ever had a pizza delivered to your house, he's got a pizza in his hand. He's got a couple of drinks. They've ordered that. That's actually found on the ground there. And this guy's going into a dangerous situation. And it's the most vulnerable position you can be in as a citizen. You're just going about your daily job. You're

not expecting to be murdered. crime stories with nancy grace the names of the two people found dead in this lafayette street are 37 year old joshua and 19 year old alberto van meter Both of them are from Lafayette. Now, it happened near the streets Heart and 16th Street, excuse me, last night in Lafayette. Lafayette Police Lieutenant Matt Gard says the call came in at about 11.14 last night. When officers got here, they found the two men dead from gunshot wounds. LPD is still investigating the homicides, but a teenage girl has been arrested in connection to what happened here. They found the two men dead from gunshot wounds. LPD is still investigating the homicides, but a teenage girl has been arrested in connection to what happened here. Now,

the deputy coroner also mentioned that Ungersma was a pizza delivery driver in Lafayette. Lieutenant Guard could not say if that had anything to do with the investigation. Yeah, it had plenty to do with the investigation. These predators targeted the pizza delivery guy. They didn't care that he's working two jobs to support his family and his children. They didn't care about that. This call came in around 1115 at night. They used the cover of darkness, lured him there for what little money a pizza delivery guy carries. You were just listening to our friend Samantha Tiki at WLFI 18 News. Back to you, Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State. You mentioned that you had worked a lot of cases where pizza delivery guys and

similarly positioned victims are targeted and lured. Did you notice they waited until it was dark to get the pizza? I mean, this was very well thought out, Joe Scott. Yeah, it was. And think about this as well. There are two individuals that are perpetrating this, this attempted robbery, if you will. And so you have one person that's drawing the attention of the driver, all right? While the other person is essentially, probably

has a weapon being held on him. He doesn't know where to go at this point. I'm sure he's panicked at this point. He is, like I said, Nancy, he is vulnerable. This is what is referred to as asymmetry in victimology. That means one person has the upper hand at all times and things went really sideways very quickly. You know, Cheryl McCollum, you're the director of the Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert. Joe Scott's laying a lot of fancy words on you. Did you hear that? Symmetry in victimology. Okay. What is he saying? All right. I would never say that to a jury. There's a lot of symmetry in victimology. Okay, what is he saying? All right, I would never say that to a jury.

There's a lot of symmetry in victimology. What? Just break it down, McCollum. He is so brilliant. The issue is jury. You sure said that out of the side of your mouth. Go ahead. You know he's brilliant.

I know. And I love his voice. But basically, this person is a false target. I'll be happy to report that to your husband, but just keep going right now. Enough about Joe Scott Morgan, the so-called silver fox. Go ahead. But this is a soft target. So we see it with delivery people, whether it's flowers or pizza.

We see it with real estate agents. They can be lured somewhere. So this house is abandoned, so there's no phone. There's no proper lighting. There's not going to be easy help for the victim. So again, they're laying in wait. But again, my former prosecutor, Nancy Grace, I know what you would do with this. The level of premeditation is beyond evil. So you're talking about they stalk out this address that's bogus. They lay in wait. They make this phone call. They order this pizza. And here's what's really disgusting. They didn't care who it was. It was just whoever in rotation got this assignment. Whoever showed up was fixing to have a gun shoved in their face.

What they weren't counting on is the victim having his own weapon. Yeah, they weren't. And he carried that for reasons because I guess he had felt threatened in the past, but he just kept working. I want to go to Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, Anchor Court TV, AshleyWilcott.com. You know what my twins keep saying? Mom, I'm going to get a job. I'm like, you are not going to get a job. If you want a job, here, here's a toothbrush and a can of Ajax. Get in there and clean the grout between the tiles in your, in your bathroom tub. That worked for

about a month. They keep saying this. Get a job? What, delivering pizza after I read a story like this? You heard Joe Scott Morgan. You heard Cheryl McCollum. A soft target. I'll never forget covering the real estate victim. She went to a home. A guy was waiting on her and murdered her. Just beautiful lady trying

to, she had just called home and told her family, hey, I put something in the oven for you. Just turn it on. I'll be there later, but your dinner's ready. I've got one more showing I've got to go to. He killed her, raped her and killed her. I mean, soft target. It just is just so wrong. It's not like some drug shootout. It's not like a wife plotting to murder her husband. The pizza delivery guy, Ashley. Yeah, it's so random, Nancy. It's really sad. We live in a world where you always have to be aware. You always have to be cautious because there are these random crimes and criminals will be criminals and they don't care who they hurt. If they're going to try to rob someone like Joe Scott said they had a gun, they didn't care what they did with it. And it's really a world when we always have to watch our

back, but that doesn't excuse, condone, or defend the fact that these criminals took the life of someone who was working hard to support his family, he never, ever, ever should have been a target, right? There's no reason, there's no excuse, there's no justification. And thankfully, he had a gun on him. I'm going to say that, right, to Carrie, because if he didn't have a gun on him, the results may have been the same, but it could have been even worse. It just, there's no good outcome, but he had to be prepared for something just in case. And it happened. Alexis, I just remember the woman's name was Beverly Carter, the real estate agent, just she looked like a model, beautiful lady, beautiful family, and goes to this real estate showing and ends up getting murdered.

The defense at trial by the killer was that this woman had met the killer for the first time and died accidentally during a consensual sex act. The dinner's in the oven. Just put it on 400. I'll be home in an hour. Are you kidding me? What a lie. And I think we covered that together, Alexis, when Ms. Carter was murdered.

We did. And here we have another soft target as we hear Cheryl McCollum describe it. What can you tell me about the victim? He is 37 years old. He is married. He has a brand new baby, not even a year old baby's six months old he's a stepdad a loving stepdad to a six-year-old son and has he's been a butcher for 13 years he's had a steady solid job about a year ago he decided that you know he had a new baby on

the way they needed more money so he got a job as a Domino's delivery driver to earn more money. Everybody loves this guy. I mean, he worked so hard. And the thing is, you were right about Domino's, but it's not $50 the driver's carry. It's $20. That's nothing to rob somebody for under $20. So he's dead over $20? And you know, I guess, Dr. Bethany, I'm just learning a lot more about the victim. You know, there are some men, I'm sure you've seen it out there on Rodeo Drive, but here's a guy that marries a young lady who is bringing with her a stepson. A lot of men wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole, no matter how great the lady is. They just don't want the responsibility.

But he marries this woman with a stepchild, then they have their own baby. Now this, that tells me a lot about him right there, holding down this kind of job for 13 years, same position, 10 years all day with a night job too. I mean, it just reminds me so much of my dad, Dr. Bethany. Nancy, a couple of things come to mind about that. Who wants to be away from their house late at night? This was after 11 o'clock at night. When you have a newborn at home, that in and of itself is a sacrifice, not just the hard work of being a pizza delivery man, but the loss of attachment with your own child, your own family, of course he would much rather have been at home than out working probably for minimum wage.

The second thing is you mentioned the realtor who was killed in the course of her work. The guy laid in wait so that he could rape and murder her. We are assuming that these perpetrators were intending to steal money. These were two teenagers. What if that was not the M.O. for the crime? I don't know criminology, but I do know human nature. And I have a hard time believing that they needed to use that much force for $20. Well, of course they did. And You're trying to apply logic to an illogical situation. Of course they didn't need to. But they wanted this guy's $25. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A guy working two jobs to support his stepson and his newborn baby and wife.

I just hate it. It just makes me sick, sick about this guy, Joshua Ungersman. We're learning a lot about what happened and about the characters involved and about the victim himself. Take a listen to Rich and IWTHR 13. Two witnesses say they saw 17-year-old Jalen Billups shoot a Domino's pizza delivery driver just after 11 p.m. Court records say that Billups ordered pizza with a false name to an unoccupied address on 16th Street in Lafayette. When Josh Ungersma arrived with the delivery, Billups and her boyfriend allegedly tried to rob him. Investigators believe Ungersma shot and killed 19-year-old Alberto Van Meter with a revolver.

Then Billups shot and killed Ungersma with a 9mm handgun. The teen faces multiple felony charges, including three counts of murder and armed robbery. The charges hold Billups responsible for Ungersma killing her boyfriend. Billups made her initial court appearance by video and told the magistrate her family plans to hire an attorney. Yeah, she's going to need a lawyer. Joshua Ungersma, however, dead. The shooter, Jalen Billups, 17, charged with killing Joshua Ungersma. And she may end up being charged with the death of her boyfriend, who was shot during the armed robbery. 19-year-old Alberto Van Meter, also dead in the middle of all this. What do we know about her, Alexis Tereshik? I'm

looking at her mugshot right now. 17. Yep. We know she is 17 years old. She has, I guess her boyfriend that she was there with. But here's what happened during the crime, what the police have said is, so she and her boyfriend ambushed on this month. There are a bunch of shots fired. The boyfriend is on the ground dead. The neighbors come out. They talk to Ungersma. Joshua, he says, please call the police.

And she actually dialed 911 from her phone, the same phone that she called to order the pizza from, is what the police have said. So she is starting the crime. She's calling up Domino's, sets him up. He comes. Then after her boyfriend is shot, she takes the gun and walks up to Joshua and shoots him point blank and kills him. You know, that's overwhelming to me.

Could you just go through that very slowly one more time? Sure. So Jalen is the one that actually makes the phone call from her cell phone. She calls Domino's Pizza. She orders the pizza. Joshua shows up. He is ambushed by this couple. There are shots fired. Her boyfriend, I'm saying boyfriend, the boy with her, the teenager, the 19-year-old man, is shot. He is on the ground, clearly, I believe, dead. Everybody, people, the neighbors are coming out from the house. They see it. Ungersma, the delivery driver, says to the neighbor, hey, call the police.

I was hoping against hope that he didn't feel anything. So he lays there knowing he's dying and ask people to call police. No, no, no. He hasn't been shot yet. He has not been shot yet. He is, he's defended himself. He's defended himself from the robbery and he is doing the right thing. Okay. I understand away from the scene. So then, so he's there, he's doing the right thing. The responsible thing, call the police. She actually called 911 from her cell phone. Then she picks up a gun and walks over to him and shoots him point blank and kills him. Dr. Bethany Marshall, did you hear that?

I heard the entire thing. And Nancy, one of the things I wondered was Jalen she's there with a gun she sees her boyfriend shot and killed a 17 year old girl then goes and shoots Josh the pizza delivery man who is this 17 year old girl like she's a homicidal 17-year-old. It's almost like she went to that abandoned house with homicide on her mind, not with pizza or the pizza drinks or stealing the $20 or the $50 or whatever she thought she could find. This is a young woman whose primary MO was homicide, that she was trigger happy. She was ready to do it before the pizza delivery man ever even arrived at the house. You know, in my mind,

that changes so much. First of all, it was going to be felony murder anyway, which carries a life sentence if she's treated as an adult, because it was during the commission of a robbery. That's a felony, and someone died, Josh Ungersma, the dad to two. But now, Alexis Tereshak, from what I understand, you're telling me, after Ungersma tells neighbors, call police, she comes over and shoots him dead? Yes. He actually, the neighbor said, are you okay? And Joshua says, according to the police,

Joshua says, I'm okay, but call the police. He tells the neighbor to call the police. The police are saying, you know, in court in the affidavit, they say, she actually called 911 from her cell phone. So she used his cell phone to call Domino's and she called 911. Then the neighbor says he witnessed this. He said she picks up a gun and walks right up to Ungersma and shoots him,

walks right up to the delivery driver. So he had been okay. Now police are saying, or the prosecutors say he had several gunshot wounds. They have not revealed how many times he was shot or if perhaps her boyfriend had fired at him. But he said he was OK. So you've been shot. You wouldn't say you were OK. Way in to you, Cheryl McCollum. Nancy, the point of all this that really sticks out for me, too, is the victim. The delivery driver had already put his gun back in his pocket.

So he thought the threat was over and he was certainly not looking at her as anybody that was involved with this robbery in the beginning. So again, it goes to premeditation. Both of these suspects have a gun laying in wait on this man. When this happens and she sees her boyfriend shot, it's critical to me that she didn't run away in a panic. She didn't freak out and leave the area to even save herself. She walked, not ran, walked up to that victim and shot him dead point blank and stayed there and police captured her on scene. This is not your average 17-year-old. To judge and trial lawyer, Court TV anchor Ashley Wilcott, that is absolutely premeditated. Because first of all, you have the premeditation of them luring him, the victim, Joshua Ungersma, to an abandoned home.

It was not for a pizza. The boyfriend, Van Meter, comes out with a gun. He gets shot dead. Agersma calls, asks people to call police. She comes straight out and guns him down. There's no way around it. This is first degree murder. Oh, I absolutely agree. And I'm actually really impressed that they've charged her with two counts of murder. Why? Because the phone connected her to the initial call to the pizza delivery, which was premeditated to get somebody there, right? She did that. And as a result of that, her boyfriend was killed in self-defense. So I think it's genius on behalf of the prosecutors to charge them with both crimes. I just have to say, Nancy, this reminds me, do you remember probably five years ago, the Uber driver in Atlanta that was murdered, gunned to the back of the head?

Again, they never found any connection between the person that shot him and killed him and the fact he was an Uber driver in the middle of the night. I know that family. The reason he was doing it was to help support the family and earn money. Exact same type of case. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I can't tell you how upsetting this case is. You've got a decent guy, no connection whatsoever to these two defendants. Second job.

I pulled up this picture while we were talking. Brand new baby. Second job to support his family. You know, take a listen to Rich Nye, WTHR 13. Gibson posted video on Facebook from the scene after both shootings. The 17-year-old girl was arrested for robbery and murder. She could be charged as an adult. Ungersma also worked in the meat department at Payless Grocery for over a decade. The store manager says he was married with a newborn baby. We want to be able to do everything we can for the family and we are going to. For right now, we ask that you give us some time for the healing process. The Domino's store is closed today out of respect to the Ungersma family.

Autopsies are scheduled for both men tomorrow. It'll be up to the prosecutor whether to file any criminal charges against that 17-year-old. She will be treated as an adult throughout the proceedings as she should. To forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Shaxsville State University. Joe Scott, how can we use forensics to prove the scenario that Alexis reported, how it went down? Well, you know, let's go back to what Max said just a few moments ago when this young man, this pizza driver, had actually taken his weapon and placed it into his pocket. Now, from what I'm understanding, it was probably a revolver, a.38 caliber revolver, which is kind of compact.

There were four rounds that had been fired. So you have those casings that are contained therein. Those rounds, those bullets are going to look different than what this 17-year-old, I'll call her an executioner, allegedly, was carrying. She was carrying a nine millimeter. And those two rounds are going to look completely different. All right. And then we have to think about range of fire. You know, with her, one of the things that keeps coming up is this is an execution style shooting. Shot him at point blank range. When people say things like point blank, they throw it around. Point blank is a real thing. That means that you're within very close distance of this individual. I'm going to be very curious to find out what the range of fire is. Did she walk up to this guy and just shoot him in the side of the head? Did she shoot him in the

chest? And how many times did she fire? And all of that's going to be revealed after the autopsy. Well, we do understand from the autopsy, from the coroner, that the victim, the dad of two, Joshua Ungersma, was shot multiple times. He leaves behind wife Jenny, stepson Logan, and his six-month-old baby boy, Sebastian. He had worked as a butcher at Payless supermarket for 13 years, then joined Domino's two years ago to make extra cash to support his young family. I want to focus for a moment on Beelzebub, Jalen Billups, 17 years old. Could you give me any reason, Ashton Wilcott, she should not be treated as an adult? In many jurisdictions, it's called the seven deadlies. If a juvenile commits one of the seven deadly sins, they will be bound over from juvenile court to adult court. Those seven deadlies being, I think I can remember them all off the top of my head, murder, rape, child molestation, sodomy, kidnap, arson, and armed robbery. There you go.

This definitely is one of the seven deadlies. Give me one good reason a trial judge should kick this back to juvenile, Ashley. I don't think that a trial judge would, but I will tell you the reason why it's possible under the law. Yes, you're correct. Seven deadly get charged as an adult. The reason that a judge will kick it to juvenile court is because remember the purpose of the juvenile court system is to rehabilitate juveniles. The purpose of the adult system is to punish. And so they do it to try to provide services and rehabilitation. I disagree right there off the bat.

If the only purpose of adult court is to punish, why do we have halfway houses? Why do we have probation? Why not just send everybody to jail? Adults get rehabilitated too. But the purpose of the system originally was not to rehabilitate. I would argue it was to punish. Now, there is rehabilitation. Don't misunderstand me.

But there is no, there is, for juvenile court, for juveniles, there is no intent. There is no punishment intended, but rather rehabilitation. So when there's a heinous crime like a murder like this, they are, in my opinion, going to be okay trying them as an adult because of the heinousness of the crime. It doesn't mean they can't be rehabilitated when they're in adult prison, but it does mean that that is not the focus, the intent when the juvenile court system was set up. This is what else I know. I've been trying to speak to people there in the jurisdiction. I understand that the boyfriend, Van Meter, was found nearby with a Domino's box, two drinks, and cash lying on the ground beside him. We also know that the victim's weapon was the.38 Smith & Wesson, and it was in his pocket, as has already been reported by Alexis Tereschuk.

So what does that tell you? Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, boyfriend is found with two drinks, a pizza, and money beside him. Well, it tells me he already started the armed robbery. He had a 9mm, Nancy. I bet you that 9mm also comes back stolen, perhaps an internet auto or a burglary that he also may be tied to. The 17-year-old female, she most likely has a juvenile record.

She's had some issues with her school, I bet you. I bet there's other victims that'll come forward about behavior that she's displayed. And I bet when it comes to trial, she has zero character witnesses. This ain't her first rodeo. Look at her mugshot. She ain't scared. She ain't crying. She's looking at that camera like, whatever. You know what? You're right. And to you, Jessica Morgan, it has definitely been confirmed that Ungersma was shot multiple times. This guy lies there and dies outside an abandoned house. His family left without him at the hands of this she devil at age 17.

She's evil already at age 17. Yeah. Hey, you know what, Nancy? This is the thing about it. Let me tell you how far this evil extends. The neighbors were already aware that this had happened. Remember what we heard. He had engaged in conversation with these people. So not only did they gun this young father down out in the middle of the street, she did.

But she did it in front of witnesses. That's how cold and callous this is. This is something that is going to weigh in this neighborhood for years and years and years. I think back to a lot of the crime prone areas. I used to work cases in Nancy and I would go back to those streets and I would look and I would say, you know what? I worked a homicide here three years ago, four years ago, five. The old guys that were there before me.

Yeah, you got to avoid that place. I've had multiple. And so this is kind of like this generational thing that goes on. That area is going to be cursed and haunted because. Well, you know what? You're right. It will be. But I'm not so I'm not as worried about the area as I am about this baby Sebastian, the wife, the stepson. Their lives are forever changed. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.