Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - New details about Tad Cummins' kidnapping Elizabeth Thomas

Episode Date: April 25, 2017

Elizabeth Thomas is a “tiny little thing” taken away by a teacher who wanted to make her his child bride. She’s back home with her family undergoing therapy after a 39-day journey across 9 states which ended in a small California cabin. Tad Cummins is also headed back to Tennessee to face kidnapping charges. Thomas family lawyer Jason Whatley talks with Nancy Grace about new details emerging. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an Stories with Nancy Grace. The 15-year-old and her former teacher were found more than 2,000 miles away in a remote cabin in Northern California with no electricity or running water. They said they're from Colorado and he said he had a house fire. He pulled me aside at one point and made a statement that he was glad that this was all over. His sister says he doesn't believe he kidnapped Elizabeth. I asked him why. Why would he do this? And the answer he gave me is that she wanted to run away and she wanted to leave.

And he didn't want her to go alone, so he went with her so he could know that she was safe. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and as all you legal eagles already know, the Purvey High School teacher, Tad Cummings, has been apprehended. He has somehow managed to get his student, Elizabeth Thomas, almost 3,000 miles from her home in Columbia, Tennessee, going under the radar, somehow outfoxing the police, the FBI, and scores of eagle eyes like you and myself trying to spot them. He ends up in Bear Claw Commune. Now, for some reason, all the TV stations kept saying it's not a commune, it's not a commune. It is a commune. And if you look at a documentary about the commune, it's clothing optional. Now catch this. He gets all the way to the commune with this little girl that he's kidnapped. And according to reports, he gets kicked out of the

commune because this 50 year old high school health science teacher spends all of his time upstairs having sex with the minor as opposed to doing his communal chores. After about a week of that, he was out and had to go live in a one-bedroom cabin near the commune. Joining me right now is special guest, the lawyer, very well respected in his jurisdiction, Jason Watley, who has been representing Elizabeth's family during this ordeal. And along with him, his colleague, Jason, please introduce Francie, your colleague. Francie Abbott, she's the brains of the law firm. She's right here making sure I don't mess up. Well, I knew there was a woman, a woman that was running things there. Now

I meet her. Hello, Francie Abbott. Thank you for being with us. Hi, dear. Jason, how is the family holding up and what was the reunion like when they were finally joined with Elizabeth? You know, Nancy, the family is doing exceptionally well under the circumstances. I mean, this has been hard. I mean, I'm not going to sugarcoat this. This man did a work on her, and they're going to be dealing with it for quite some time. Luckily, the care providers we have are confident that they're going to get her back to a right state of mind. Now, I don't want to give it some impression that she's, you know, not herself at times.

She is, and she's just the sweetest thing when you meet her. And she's a child. I just want to be very, very clear. This is something that has bothered me when people talk about this as some romance or whatever they say and this crazy stuff. And I know she's 15, but let's just, when I met her, I will tell you, Nancy, the very first thought in my head and the first thought of my paralegal, she was there too, was this is a little child. She looks 12. She acts 12. You know, I don't know if and I don't mean this in any offensive way.

If she had her growth was a little bit stunted or if that's just the way she's developed or whatever. But she's a tiny little thing. And and she anybody who sees her would immediately think child, not woman. And so this the mugshot that we had of her is just wrong. But the family has been they're doing great. I mean, the fact that she's home and safe and being cared for is a sense of relief that can't even be described. At the same time, there's lots of struggles, and it just is what it is. But they're going to get through it. They've got lots of help. And, you know, they're cutting off media as of last night,

and they're just going to focus on the child. And, you know, that part of it's good. You know, I want to ask this question of Francie, because I think she'll be able to answer a little bit better than you, Jason, no offense. But when you say that she was not really looks like a child, Francie, when I looked at her in her picture, she always had on baggy clothes, but she didn't even look like she had developed as a woman at all. Like, I don't think she would even need a bra or anything. She just looked like a skinny child.

She looked like a little girl. She's definitely a child. A 15-year-old is not fully developed, especially this one. She's not at all. She's not even close to womanhood. I think that's a good description, Nancy. I think she's, you know, she clearly, she's post-pubescent. Jason, Jason, Jason, let me just keep you from sticking your foot in your mouth.

Because a man can't say it, but I can say it. I mean, this little girl didn't even need a bra, okay, from the looks of it. And there she is with this 50-year-old man when he's having sex with her. What that is, it's not sex. It's called statutory rape. That's what that is. But I bet the father was so overjoyed beyond words. I can only imagine his relief that she was alive.

Let me just tell you, he is a very stoic guy, typically. Even at times, I wish he had, you know, there were times if I could choreograph him, I would have said, okay, show some emotion here, this or that. This broke him. Just seeing her when he finally saw her he was just broken i mean i've never i in my in my professional career i don't know that i've ever had a client uh weep the way in which he did i mean it was he just in a gut-wrenching fashion an uncontrollable fashion it was just very very very weepy uh and it just sort of hit him when finally she was home, you know, what the child had been through. And it was a very emotional time for everybody there.

Very emotional. Well, I can only imagine you're actually bringing me to tears because it's reminding me of my father and he would well up and cry if he thought I had a hard time, even when I was a grown lady, much less as a child. Yeah, he, you know, he's a very emotional person. In fact, that's one of the things, I don't mind saying this, that his, his tendency to be emotional in her presence is something we've had to, uh, rein in a little bit because that's something that is difficult for her to take right now. She's, uh, she's struggling in many different ways. And, and

again, she's got great family and friend support around her. Uh, but, but, you know, she's struggling in many different ways. And, again, she's got great family and friend support around her. But, you know, she can't take a lot of pressing in on her. She can't take big crowds at all or even modest-sized crowds. You know, and people being emotional around her, we've steered away from that. We try to keep the conversation light. You know, it's been, it's been at times sort of clinical as you're in her presence. Now there have been lots of moments, extended moments. I spent several hours with her on Sunday morning,

just watching the kids play and laugh and run around and wrestle each other. And I mean, it was like normalcy. I mean, it was just it was an amazing thing to watch. And so, you know, that that was clearly just a snippet and it wasn't the whole picture, but it was a beautiful picture to see that she can get to that point. Let me stop and thank our partner, our sponsor, making this podcast possible. It's Simply Safe. I just heard a story out of Racine, Wisconsin, and I want to share it with you. A house caught on fire. No one was home, and it took a while for neighbors to notice

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SimpliSafe, thank you for what you are doing, making home security and fire protection affordable for everyone. Thank you, SimpliSafe, for being our partner. When you say that her father has to be reined in, do you mean because he cries out of joy or because he's angry at what Tad Cummins did? Or what is it? And I get it.

I don't think my father could have been reined in on something like this but what do you mean by that with respect to her presence obviously it's just tears of joy I mean he he talked about this particular flavor of Gatorade some sort of weird cucumber something Gatorade that he he I remember he told this touching story and it choked me up that he he wanted to get this for her when she returned. And he and explaining why he wanted to get her that particular flavor. He said that he knew it was her favorite and that he searched all over the gas station for it one day. And and he just wanted to see this this flavor. It reminded him of her and he could

not find it and he looked everywhere and he could not find this and it was almost like it was a metaphor for the fact that she was gone and he just broke down and he just he just wept over the fact he couldn't find this particular flavor of Gatorade which was his daughter's uh he perceived to be her favorite we later found out that she was humoring him a little bit, that she liked it, but not quite as much as he thought she did. But he thought in his mind that that was it. And so it's just been very touching. But now I will tell you, and you may be referencing this, you know,

I'm sure a lot of his tears, the mixture of emotion also has to do with anger because he is angry. He's very, very angry and wants justice. I don't mean that anger is driving him. He's a loving, caring person. But, you know, how should any father feel when their daughter was taken that way and something, you know, a portion of her life was taken that can never be returned? And, you know, what is the response of a father supposed to be? I know that I would never be able to be the same.

And frankly, I'd have to be restrained if it were me. Let me ask you this. I've said this a couple of times. I want to make sure I'm right. I was under the understanding that Elizabeth had been homeschooled. Is that right? Yes. Before her mother's ordeal where she was abused and all the children were abused.

And this happened over an extended period of time that before mother. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. We are not putting perfume on the pig. It's not an ordeal. Her mother went through. Her mother was accused of abusing her children, including Elizabeth.

Okay. Let's get that. I agree with you. I agree. Thanks for the correction. But she, when that happened, when she exited, Elizabeth went into public school. That was the middle of her eighth grade year. And so then she.

There you go again, Watley. There you go. She did not exit. She lost her parental rights because she had been, according to a juvenile judge, abusing the children. The standard of proof was met and she could no longer be with him. She didn't like go for a physical therapy somewhere. It was a forced exit. That's the way I look at it.

But I mean, it was listen, she's a horrible person and we can't stand her. And the family, literally, just on that note, she has had such a negative impact on these children that just the sight of her on media has been extremely hurtful to even the adult children. I mean, they just can't stand it. People don't understand really how delicate the human mind is. Like when you were talking about that Gatorade drink, my father, every night after dinner would want a decaf and I would make it for him every night that he was with me. And I

remember when he was in that hospital bed, I begged him to come back to, and I'd make him a decaf. Isn't that a funny thing out of all the things I could have said. And I'm just thinking about her father trying to find her, you know, favorite drink for her. It just hurts my heart. I agree, Nancy. It's all so gut-wrenching, really. And I just hope and pray that justice can be done here. The fact that Tad Cummins yesterday made the statement, allegedly,

I wasn't there, but in federal court, that he made the statement that he was looking forward to defending these charges. What? What? He said, no, he did not. He said he's looking forward to defending these charges. Oh, you know what? You just made

me the happiest woman in the world. Because I tell you what, when he starts up with a jury about, I noticed that he said, oh, kind of like blaming Elizabeth. It was her idea. She's the one that said she wanted to run away. You know what?

BS. That child did not want to run away until he took her away. She had never run away in her life. No, she had not. And let me tell you this. Let's assume even for one second that she went willingly. Now, I agree that she couldn't, but let's just assume in the sense of how lay people look at it, she went. When I heard this, keep in mind, and I'm just going to tell you this little tidbit. And this came out before she was found. This was out in the media. And so I'm just reminding you

of something that was already out there. She told at least, I think, two people that I know of that she was so upset at the ridicule that she was getting at school about the kissing that she was going to get out of there. In other words, she was talking about the idea of leaving to a few people, or at least two that I know of, before she left because of that. Now, think of the irony. If that's true, the reason that she felt that ridicule was because of Tad Cummins. He is the genesis of it. He created it, and then he became her rescuer in his eyes. I mean, the man is demented.

So this 50-year-old, gray-whiskered, married man, grandfather, French kisses this little girl right in the mouth, in the school, in the background, just in case you hear her. That's my mother, Elizabeth. French kisses her in the mouth at school, gets caught. Then she gets ridiculed. She wants to run away from everybody at school making fun of her. And according to reports, even the teachers saying it was her fault.

They should all be reprimanded for that, everyone that said that. So she wants to run away. And so he says, oh, I took her because she wanted to run away. I mean, the irony is you just pointed out, but I'll tell you another observation. This child had been homeschooled and kept in the home. She looks like a 12 year old girl at best, the way she's built. Well, thin thing. And I would put money on it. Not that this is going to make a difference in a court of law. But you know this child had never been with a man before. And then she goes out with this 50-year-old lout.

And they start having sex in a commune. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. I can't wait for him to so-called defend himself. And all of this come out. And I guarantee you, they're going to bring on those people at that commune. Because if Elizabeth has been brainwashed, as I think she may have been, A, she may come out of it by that time. But B, they will need to corroborate everything that she says if she cannot testify at trial. They'll bring on those clothing optional commune members,

and they will describe what they heard upstairs where that dirty mattress is on that upstairs floor. And when the jury hears that, they won't be able to convict fast enough. They won't even have a soda break in deliberations. They'll go straight to the vote. Yeah, I think that he's a legend in his own mind. I think that these statements speak to just the level of narcissism that exists in Tad Cummins. He believes his own fantasy at this point. And the fact that, if you just think about it for a second, Nancy, I mean, just step back for a second and think, okay, I left, this is his story. I left

because she wanted to run away and I wanted to protect her. That's the story that's coming up that I've been reading that about the people that were there in court and, and, and the story that came from his sister too. I don't know if you saw that interview, his sister got interviewed. She had talked to him and he allegedly claims that he wanted to protect her. So to protect her, he takes her. He cuts her hair. He dyes her hair. He takes her 3000 miles away. She eats wildflowers.

She's basically famished for food. She lives in God forsaken environment with naked men walking around, at least according to reports. And I'm not going to comment on what I know. Okay. But all of these things, and then God forbid the things that we think were happening and that's rescuing her. I mean,

this man, I don't want to say he's insane because he's not clinically insane to the point that he can't stand trial. But, but he's an evil man. I'll say that. And I'll stick with that. Is Francie Abbott still there?

Yes. Francie, do you have children? No, I do not. Let me tell you something. The last thing I want is for my daughter to be in a situation where she sees a bunch of naked men walking around. Oh, my God. Well, that's not the absolute last thing I want, but it is way, way, way up there on the list. So I'm just trying to think back.

Think with me, Francie, at the time you had just turned 15. I mean, I didn't know anything about the world. I had a very, very happy childhood. And I mean, I knew nothing at all. And I think that that is the way Elizabeth was. What can you tell me, Jason, about what we are learning from the U.S. attorney's office, that he had actually planned to get a watercraft, a boat of some sort, and leave and get to Mexico with her? Well, he did get a watercraft.

That's my understanding. He did get one, and there was some sort of test run. I don't know if he rented it or bought it. I thought he purchased some sort of watercraft. And he went into Mexican waters. That's my understanding with her. You know, again, this was all part of this fantasy idea of his. I mean, what's he going to do, hit the shores of Mexico and then what? What's he going to walk along the beach, say Juan Taneo, like on Shawshank Redemption, and he's going to fix up a boat?

I mean, it's just crazy. I mean, the man is, you know, he starts to believe his own sort of comic book fantasy reality. And I'm going to tell you right now, I absolutely believe that Elizabeth Thomas is going to get to a point, and I think sooner rather than later, where she understands this. She's got the best of the best working with her. And these people are consummate professionals, and they know exactly what they're doing to deal with her trauma. And so I'm very confident that she's going to be an effective witness against Ted Cummins. So he had already procured a watercraft. How did he manage to do that with the amount of money that he had?

Well, I don't know what kind of watercraft it was. And I know this. They were nearing the end in terms of the money. So the well had dried up, and they were going to have to figure out a way. He was going to have to figure out a way to live. And he was already speaking for her i mean one of the things in the reports i saw that was so uh it just telling is that even these these folks in this commune would say that he would speak for her you know she couldn't speak he would he would answer the questions he would shush her or whatever to keep her from talking. He had control of this situation.

I mean, think about it, Jason. What does it say about you when you're out in the middle of nowhere where it's a 20 mile ish rugged road to find beer, Glog commune, people that clearly are antisocial walking around half naked or totally naked, living off the land, eating wildflowers, whatever, to each her own. And they kick you out. Even they don't want you. They thought there was something wrong with Tad Cummings. Now, I mean, come on. That ain't right.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I thought of that. I'm not trying to discourage or disparage those folks out there. But, you know, they said, one of their intros, they said they accept Wiccans, wizards. And they listed a litany of people. It was a colorful list. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them. What I'm saying is that people who don't follow traditional rules, even they knew something was very wrong with this, just innately, just naturally.

You touched on something. I'm a strong believer in natural law. I believe that inside the conscience of every human being, regardless of their worldview, unless they're just a complete sociopath, there is something telling them fundamentally what's right and wrong. Now, they can debate different points and finer points, but at the end of the day, and C.S. Lewis went through this in detail in books like Mere Christianity, but the fact of it is, deep down in them, they knew this was wrong. They knew something was wrong. And you know, in prison, it's the same way. You can have a cold-hearted killer who finds a person in prison who abused a child

and look out for the person who abused the child. People know that you don't mess with kids and you don't mess with little girls and you don't do this kind of thing. So let me ask you this. Are you telling me that he actually took this child out on the open waters to get into Mexican waters? That's my understanding. Now, I don't, I got to tell you, I'm trying to gather the facts like everybody else. So check me on my facts. But see, we don't have any of that direct. We're getting all of this fed to us via the U.S.

Attorney's Office or the FBI. We're just trying to get the full picture. But that's my understanding. Jason and Nancy, I have the court filing from the U.S. attorney right in front of me. And according to the court filing, Cummins admitted to planning to attempt to escape across the U.S. border to Mexico. He then planned to seek passage to countries further south of Mexico. In furtherance of this plan, the defendant procured a small watercraft and conducted a test run to cross into Mexico across the waters from San Diego. The defendant also considered the feasibility of a land crossing into Mexico. That is in the sworn statement that was filed yesterday. There you go. When you say she's working with the best of the best, what do you mean by that? Like,

is she working with child psychologists? Is somebody going to at some point interview her about what happened before the memory starts to fade? But you don't want to rush it. It's a very delicate thing, Jason. That's a great question. And I'm going to tell you, we've been working with that exact question in detail. And here's the bottom line. We know that law enforcement has a job to do. We know that they're going to have to question her further. We know they didn't finish their questioning of her, their forensic interview of her when she was first rescued. And so we know that's coming, and we're working with them. They're great people at the FBI that are very sensitive to her needs. But at the same time, I'm going to tell you that her needs also require understanding reality and understanding these things as part of the therapeutic process.

So I would tell you that these folks that are working with her, which is a team of extremely qualified people, will be at least working hand-in-hand with the FBI in conducting an interview at the appropriate time, which serves dual purposes. So it serves their purpose and a therapeutic purpose. And so that is going to happen. And it's very much on the radar screen of everyone involved. Well, I want to tell you something, Jason, Alan and I, all along, we just wanted to keep covering this, even when there wasn't real news even when nothing new had happened because I felt that every day he would get X number of miles further away every night would be another round of statutory rape on this child and as the days passed and the weeks passed she would get brain washed to the point where there was a point of no return. That they would get to Mexico.

They would get out of the country and beyond the reach of her father and the U.S. government. And just look how close they were. He had already done a test run on a boat to get to Mexico, had run out of money and was just trying to make some money and then leave this country. And, you know, I just thank God he was caught in time. I'm amazed when I look at the process of how he was caught, because the process, as per the training of these law enforcement guys, worked perfectly in the end, at least. I'm not saying whether somebody could argue there were missteps along the way, and I'm not saying there were, but I think the process worked to a T at the end because here's what happened. The media did its job. Your show, other media outlets, they kept the story alive. This person, what's his name, Francie? Griffin.

Griffin Berry. communicated with him. And then he saw this and recognized them. And then even after that point, when he calls law enforcement, they didn't tell me at that point. Now, we were frustrated at times because we wanted more information. But law enforcement didn't give us that information right away because, frankly, what if I had run to the media? Because the media had been very helpful up until that exact moment. And then at that exact moment, they had to have complete secrecy because they had to get in there and get him before he heard about it. Obviously, they didn't have cable television where they were, but maybe they had some other means to know. And so what happened at that point was the sheriff got involved over there.

And frankly, and I credit our TBI because my understanding is the sheriff was going to move in and check it out with a couple of patrolmen. And our TBI said, no, you don't want to do that. This guy's armed and told about the situation. So they went in with their SWAT team and took care of business. And it was two hours away from their sheriff's department through snow. I mean, they just did a phenomenal job and surrounded the place so that once the gig was up, there was no place for Cummins to go. And so they had him wrapped up. And I'm just so proud of that process. And I'll tell you, the family is so immensely thankful to the public for remaining vigilant and interested in this story. Because without it, I'm going to tell you right now, she wouldn't be home.

That's it. Without the interest generated through the media, she would still be out there, God forbid. But that's the way we believe it would have been. But instead, we had all this coverage. And as a result, somebody finally saw them and did the right thing. And now she's home. It's just amazing that it worked. because we were afraid, just like you, we were afraid that we'd never see her again.

And for her to finally show up, I've got to tell you, when I met her for the first time, I mean, it was hard for me to keep my composure because it was just, I felt like I already knew her. I'd never even met her. And there she was. I wasn't expecting to ever see her, and I got to meet her. And it's just been surreal. Jason, I understand this week you're going to actually meet this Griffinberry. He's coming to town.

And he's going to be with my good friend Chandler Anderson and Blake Height, his partner. And they're going to give him a nice check, which he earned. And I'm looking forward to meeting this young man. And guess what? He's from Middle Tennessee. Went to Brentwood Academy and decided he'd go out west and live at that commune. But he's a local boy, of all things. A local Middle Tennessee native was the one who finally saw him.

Wow. You know what? That is really just incredible. It's such a twist of fate that a local guy helps bring her home. And I want to just address something you said about missteps. You know what? Every time you do anything, there's a misstep. You know, think about all those Olympians. They don't do it perfectly the first time. They practice, practice, practice. They fall off the beam. They trip. They fall. They get hurt. They get up. They try again.

And that's what law enforcement does. Everybody's always so darn hard on law enforcement. Oh, you did this wrong. You did that wrong. You know, in hindsight, hindsight is always 2020, what you should have, could have, would have done. But when you're in it and you're trying your best, yes, you're going to have mistakes. You're going to do some things wrong in your effort to do something right and i mean i would leave court a million times and just kick myself why didn't i do this why didn't i do that well when you're in the middle of it and you're in the arena and you're dirty and you're bleeding and you're sweating and you're hurting and you're trying to keep going you know what, yeah, you're going to screw up. But in the end, they won. They saved her life.

So I'm very sensitive about people, you know, trashing the police about what they could have done and should have done because they're trying for Pete's sake. Nobody else is out there doing it. It's the police doing it, the FBI, the TBI. They're the ones. So they're the ones putting their life on the line. You referenced TR's in the arena quote, which is one of my favorites. And that's so true. I mean, they're in the arena.

And anybody involved in the legal system is. And frankly, in any human endeavor, you do your best and you spend yourself in a worthy cause, as he said. And you do fail again and again, but you get up, you know. And I love the last part of that says, so that your place will not be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. And so you're in the arena. And these guys clearly were and are in the arena. And I got to tell you personally, I have nothing but praise for the efforts of law enforcement in this case, from the local level, all the way to the federal level. I was immensely impressed with their dedication, their absolute insatiable desire to find her and rescue her. And they did it. And it's just one of those stories where it's going to have a happy ending. I mean, we're already there,

but there's a long ways to go. But this thing's going to end as it should. It should have never happened. But now that it happened, it's going to end the way it ought to happen. And that means Cummins behind bars and Elizabeth living a happy and free life. You know, I know this is also tortuous to his wife to see your husband do this and leave you after all these years. And I mean, after I gave birth to the twins and Lucy and I almost died during all that. I mean, if my husband left me after all that, honey, you'd have to get the shotgun out of my hand. Okay? Take it away from me. Jason, I'll definitely hire you, you know, to defend me if I ever have to shoot my husband. Okay?

So, anyway, I only wish I could shove him in the jail cell myself and turn the key and throw it away. But I guess I will leave that to the jury and the warden at whatever correctional institute he may end up at. Jason Wiley, and especially you, Francie Abbott, I wish you had said more. But once again, Wiley hogged it all. Jason, thank you for being with us. You're awesome. And I feel that over all these weeks, you know, I've met a colleague and a friend, Jason, and you've really been awesome. Again, I want to thank everyone, including our sponsor, SimpliSafe, making home security and fire protection available to everybody now.

SimpliSafe.com slash Nancy. Nancy Grace, signing off once again from Crime Stories. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.