Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - NEW DETAILS: Gene Hackman, Wife, Dog Dead 9 Days Before Workers See Bodies Thru Window

Episode Date: March 23, 2025

Sheriff’s deputies responded to a home after workers saw bodies through a window when no one answered the door. Gene Hackman, 95, his wife, Betsy Arakawa, 65, and a dog were found dead. Officers found the front door of Hackman’s two-story green stucco home slightly ajar but saw no signs of forced entry. During a search, deputies found all other buildings and the garage of the $3.8 million home locked and secured. The home did not appear to have been rummaged through, and no items were reported missing. An officer noted that nothing seemed "out of place." According to a search warrant affidavit, officers entering the home saw a bathroom to the left of the front door. The bathroom door was open, and Betsy Arakawa was lying on her right side, deceased. Police said she was wearing dark gray sweatpants and a light-colored sweatshirt. A black space heater was near her head, but the report did not state whether it was on. Officers also saw an open orange prescription bottle with pills scattered on the countertop. A deputy reported obvious signs of death, including body decomposition, facial bloating, and mummification in her hands and feet. Deputies then saw feet and legs near the kitchen. They found Gene Hackman dead in the mudroom. He was wearing gray sweatpants, a blue long-sleeve T-shirt, and brown slippers. He had a walking cane and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman showed similar signs of death as his wife. An autopsy was performed, but initial findings noted no external trauma to either individual. In a press conference, authorities said Arakawa died February 11 from hantavirus. However, new documents show she made multiple phone calls and was seen on February 12. Joining Nancy Grace: Joshua Ritter - Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Prosecutor ND Host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube; X, Instagram & TikTok: @joshuaritteresq, YouTube: CRConfidential Dr. Bethany Marshall -  Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker;" Featured in Hit Show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X @DrBethanyLive Sheryl McCollum - Atlanta Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host : Zone 7, X @149Zone7  Dr. William Morrone - Medical Examiner, Toxicologist, Pathologist, Opioid Treatment Expert, and Author: “American Narcan: Naloxone & Heroin-Fentanyl Associated Mortality”  Jessica Finn - Senior Investigative Reporter at The U.S. Sun, the-sun.com, jessicafinnnyc (Twitter/ IG) @jessicafinn.bsky.social  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The beloved Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman and his devoted wife, Betsy Arakoa, found dead in Hackman's home. In the last days, a huge twist in the Gene Hackman mystery as police release his wife Betsy's cell phone data. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. New cell phone data calls into question when exactly Gene Hackman's wife, Betsy, died. The Santa Fe medical examiner claimed a postmortem showed she died of hantavirus. That's a rare rat-borne respiratory illness probably caused by exposure to wood mice.

Around Feb. 11, a full week before her Oscar-winning husband Gene Hackman died of heart failure combined with Alzheimer's. But now, in a bizarre twist, police confirm Betsy made multiple phone calls on Feb. 12, at least a full day after she was believed to have died. What does that mean to the investigation? Let's back it up and take it from the beginning. At this hour, according to law enforcement, the deaths of Gene Hackman, his wife and dog, suspicious. What happened to the Oscar winner? Let's go to that 911 call. Listen.

Hello, my name is. I think we just found two or one deceased person inside a house. What's your address here? There's no address. There's no address. I'm going to wait for you at the gate. I'm going to wait for you to send somebody real quick. Are you with the patient now?

Yeah, I'm over at their property. There's no address here. So I have to meet the ambulance or the police, whoever, down at the gatehouse. I'll bring them up here. Curious, he hesitantly to say two dead bodies, but that could be easily explained with an innocent explanation that the viewer could only see part of the second dead body. Let's listen to more. A female in the mail, probably. I don't know. I don't know. Sir, just send somebody up here real quick. Okay. Are they awake? I have no idea.

Are they breathing? I have no idea. I'm not inside the house. It's closed. It's locked. I go in, but I see that she's laying down on a floor from the window. Do they appear to be completely awake? Are they awake?

Do they appear to be awake or alert? No, no, no, no, no, no, it's not. Okay. Okay. Did you ever hear, did you hear them talk or cry? No, no. Okay. Okay.

Are they moving at all? No, dude, they're not moving. Just send somebody up here really quick. Do 911 dispatchers ever bother you? Because the caller's already said, they're two dead people. And the 911 dispatch says, do they appear to be completely awake? Do they appear to be awake or alert? Did you hear them talk or cry? Are they moving? No, they're dead. We are talking about an Oscar winner, Gene Hackman, his wife, and their dog. Now, how can that all be explained away innocently? At this hour, as we go to air, law enforcement stating the deaths are quote suspicious. Joining me, Jessica Finn, senior investigative reporter at the U.S. Sun.

Jessica, thank you for being with us. Let's just start at the beginning, how the body of Gene Hackman and his wife and his dog were found. Yeah, really wild scene in Santa Fe. You find the maintenance worker calling 911, and he is very frantic. And what's something people don't realize was that there were actually two different 911 calls. The first one, it's a dial to 911. The dispatcher picks up, and he says, hello, hello, 911, hello. And you hear the dogs barking in the background.

You hear a man's voice talking, and it just is this very chaotic scene. And then this guy hangs up the phone. And then the 911 dispatcher tries to call him back again and tries to get the guy back on the phone. And then there's a second phone call to 911. So it just paints this really, really hectic picture of what's going on. You hear, again, the two living dogs in the background, presumably the Hackman's dogs. And you hear this maintenance worker just very upset and very distressed. He's trying to tell the 911 dispatcher that there are two dead people in the house. And 911 is asking the series of questions about, are they breathing? Like you said, are they talking? And it's this really strange inquiry from the 911 dispatcher. And one of the other interesting things that the maintenance worker says is, as we know, the Hackmans were very private people. There were no security cameras at the house.

They were extremely, extremely private. And he says to the dispatcher, there's not an address for the house. And there's a reason for that, pointing to how private these two people were and how much they protected their celebrity status and really kind of wanted to make sure that people couldn't track them down and kind of were off the grid, so to speak. This is more of what we're learning from the scene where Oscar winner Jane Hackman, wife and dog, all found dead. Listen. Deputies arrived and gained access to the residence where they observed Mrs. Arakawa deceased. They continued the search of their home and located Mr. Hackman in a separate area of the residence, also deceased. A German shepherd was also found deceased and two other dogs who appeared healthy were located on the property.

Responding officers find the front door in the glass entryway of Hackman's two-story green-colored stucco home open, ajar just a bit. But there did not appear to be any signs of forced entry. The garage connected to the $3.8 million home appeared to be locked and nothing appeared to be out of place. The garage locked, the door ajar, nothing stolen, nothing ransacked, nothing rummaged through, no items taken. Everything appeared in place. What does it mean? I know at least one expert has focused on the dog for good reason.

Joining me, forensics expert, director and founder of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute and star of Zone 7 podcast, Cheryl McCollum. What about it? I would focus on the dog because you're going to see the pattern of what the Hackmans did. Did they put the dog in the crate in the morning or the evening? That would give you a timetable to start from. Those patterns, those habits are really important. The other thing for me is if you talk about a necropsy for the dog or testing for the animal, that's going to come back quicker

than it will for the hackmans. We may not know for sure for months what may or may not have happened to them, but with that animal, we would know much quicker. So my focus would be on the habit. Why do you say that, Cheryl? Because you're not going to have that many. You're going to have many more people that have to have an autopsy than an animal that is killed in a situation or died of natural causes or poison. So those tests are going to be able to tell us much, much quicker what might have occurred in that home. So you were saying the reason we would get the results back on the dog more quickly, the German Shepherd, is because there's no line. There's not a long line of gerbils and hamsters and guinea pigs and birds and cats and dogs waiting for an autopsy. Is that your reason for

saying that the dog autopsy will come back quicker? Correct. Got it. Got it. Joining me to follow up on that is renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, opioid treatment expert and author of American Narcan, Dr. William Maroney. Dr. Maroney, thank you for being with us and taking your time away from what you do every day for all of us. Dr. Maroney, with the door ajar, would that rule out carbon monoxide? In any normal case, the answer is yes, because carbon monoxide has to concentrate. Can't concentrate with the door open. Dr. Maroney, what would be found typically when bodies, when someone dies of carbon monoxide? And then I want to follow up with you with the fact that both Hackman and his wife were mummified to a degree. But first, the carbon monoxide.

Well, in carbon monoxide, the skin is bright red. Now, that may be complicated because they were mummified, but the appearance of the skin and the color of the deceased is the take-home point. And the fire department does not enter a building without running a carbon monoxide meter. So they would know that because when they enter, then they would have to use a self-contained breathing apparatus. So that's the carbon monoxide question. You're going so fast, Dr. Maroney, for regular lay people like myself. First of all, why would the victim's face, the victim's faces be red due to carbon monoxide poisoning? That's a surefire giveaway.

But why? Because the chemistry of carbon monoxide versus the chemistry of hemoglobin, it's how things work. Hemoglobin allows you to transfer oxygen back and forth. Carbon monoxide, it's just the color of blood with carbon monoxide in the skin. It doesn't change. And the carbon monoxide molecule permanently sits in the receptor site on the hemoglobin, whereas oxygen moves on and off easily. It's always a red color because that's the chemistry of carbon monoxide.

A new cell phone data trail throws a wrench into the investigation into the death of Gene Hackman and his beloved wife, Betsy. She, Betsy, called Cloudberry Health, a local concierge medical practice, seeking medical treatment three times on February 12th. Well after the medical examiner says she was dead, a fourth call was also made to Arakawa from the clinic. We're learning this from the BBC. The clinic told BBC she never received the care she was seeking and we know she died. We also now know Betsy communicated with a massage therapist on email, went to the grocery store, a

pharmacy, and a pet store. She made it back home around 5 15 that day and this is according to the family's garage clicker data. Yes, that has tracking data as well. We also have learned that a doctor, Dr. Josiah Child, claims that Betsy called and described congestion. She didn't describe any respiratory distress, shortness of breath or chest pain, all symptoms of the hantavirus. So we know now she did not die on Feb 11 because she called the clinic Feb 12. Interesting, she also called a couple of weeks before her death about getting an echo, an echocardiogram heart scan for her husband. What, if anything, does it mean to the investigation? We don't know now, but this is what we do know. Listen. Walking in the front door, officers see a bathroom to the left of the front door. Betsy is lying on her right side, dead.

She is wearing dark gray sweatpants and a light-colored sweatshirt. Next to the body is a black space heater near her head. But the report doesn't say if it was on. An open orange prescription bottle with pills scattered on the countertop. There are obvious signs of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification in both hands and feet. As deputies continue, they see feet and legs near the kitchen area. Jean Hackman is found dead in the mudroom wearing gray sweatpants, a blue long-sleeved t-shirt, brown slippers, has a walking cane, and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman also showed obvious

signs of death. To Jessica Finn joining us, investigative reporter with the U.S. Sun, were both bodies partially mummified and are we sure that door was ajar? Yeah, so both bodies were absolutely partially mummified. Really gruesome scene that police ended up coming upon at the house, at the residence. And, you know, from what we understand, the back door was ajar. It seems like it could have potentially, police theorize, been ajar to allow the dogs to come in and out of the residence freely. We don't know that for sure. There's different reports about the front door. The maintenance worker initially says in his 911 call that the front door is locked.

When the police get there, the police say that the front door was not locked. So we don't know exactly the situation with the front door, but we do know that the back door absolutely was not only unlocked, but it was open. And dogs seem to be coming in and out of the home freely. Very, very curious. And I'm going to follow up in a moment with Cheryl McCollum regarding that door ajar. We've seen that before when pets were involved. Okay. To Dr. William Maroney, a lot to break down right there. Dr. Maroney, first of all, mummification. What is it now? We believe, and I'll get into this too. There's just so much, so many scientific evidence is what it's called in the law regarding, for instance, the pacemaker.

How long had it not been working and what does that mean? There's a lot to do with this pacemaker. What I'm getting at Moroni is a timeline. Can you talk to me about what is mummification and how would that happen that quickly? I mean, I would expect if they had been dead nine days, as we are told, based on a lot of different circumstantial evidence, extrinsic evidence. I'm very surprised their bodies aren't in decomp as opposed to mummification. There's two words that lead us to understand mummification. New Mexico. This is totally different than a body dying in Iowa, Connecticut, or Wyoming. Bodies desiccate in these kind of environments much faster and what is that do i have to tell you again dr maroney desiccate i'll try to dumb it down i'll speak thank you yes and i will take that uh not in a bad way dummy down for me, it's look in any other environment, mummification is a general principle that follows.

Nobody goes to the bloating, the bloating around the face, the bloating around the center chest and the torso. Limbs mummify faster. Limbs don't usually bloat up with gas. I see it all the time on scenes. Mummification of somebody's been down a week, but New Mexico, those are the key words is why this went through mummification so fast. Air condition, outdoors, whatever the conditions are in New Mexico. Mummification drying is really a big part of this. So you're saying mummification would happen much more quickly in New Mexico, mummification drying is really a big part of this. So you're saying mummification would happen much more quickly in New Mexico as opposed to, let's just say, Manhattan.

Bingo. Yes. Because of the dry air and the temperature, correct? Correct. Okay. Dr. Maroney, how can there be bloating and mummification? Okay, because the bloating comes from gas. There's gas, there's bacteria in your body, in your bowels, in your stomach, in your lungs. There's a normal, healthy group

of bacteria that lives in you. And as soon as you stop dying, the life cycle of that bacteria is unopposed and it gives off gas. Ordinarily, you swallow them and they pass in your stool, you cough, you blow them out of your nose. Bacteria is a very important part of the body. And when the body no longer can cleanse itself or reestablish fresh new young bacteria, old bacteria and decay cause the body to bloat. These are very specific gases related to decomposition, but the process of bloating is very, very common. It's just that you bloat and you dry in different places at different times. And arms and legs are where you mummify first. Nobody said anything about maggots. That's very interesting because blowflies and maggots would allow you more time to actually stage when they died. Nobody's talking about maggots.

That's very interesting. That says to me that the house was sealed. And it wasn't as open because flies come in anywhere. And when they plant their eggs, they plant them in the eyes. They plant them in the nose. They plant them in the mouth. And they go to other body parts like the rectum. And they multiply as maggots.

Nobody's talking about maggots. That's really important here too. Dr. Maroney, I need to understand what you're saying. It is forensic etymology, the study of bugs, insects, as it relates to crime, specifically dead bodies. So let me understand, Dr. Maroney, for maggots to appear on a dead body, that body must be exposed in some way to the outdoors. So the fly has to come in to the residence to get to the body. Right. Right.

Okay. And even if there are no flies in the area, as soon as a body, as someone dies, they come. I don't know. I'm not an etymologist, but they show up in all sorts of weather conditions. So you're saying this is really interesting. Many people believe that with a dead body, maggots just originate from the body. That's not true. The fly has to, the insect, the adult insect has to appear and then lay eggs, hence maggots. And you're saying because there were none, that door must not have been ajar the entire time.

Dealed. Yes. And I think it's key that they don't talk about maggots. In any other case where anybody dies outdoors, you always bring in a forensic entomologist, and the maggots help you apply a timeline. Maggots are on the body the first hour it dies outdoors. So if you don't have any maggots at all, then there were never any openings for windows or doors the whole time this was going on. And the mummification comes from the air conditioning. Hackman's daughter, Leslie,

tells reporters that she hadn't seen her father or stepmother in a few months since she lives in California. As far as talking to her dad, she said it had also been a couple of months, but she adds they were close. She says everything seemed normal and good. Her father was in good shape doing Pilates and yoga multiple times a week. What do we know about the death of Gene Hackman, his wife and dog? At this hour, law enforcement still saying that the deaths are suspicious, not ruling it accident, not ruling it suicide. And now we're learning carbon monoxide. Very unlikely.

Of course, theories emerge. Actor Randy Quaid claims Gene Hackman and his wife were murdered. Quaid shared his theory calling on news agencies to stop talking about the films he is in. This is how they get away with murdering famous people. To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining me, a renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction, author of Deal Breaker. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. You can also see her on Peacock now. Dr. Bethany, now murder theories are abounding. And part of that reason is because we're not hearing it was suicide. For obvious reasons, we're not hearing it was accident, but yet there was no break-in, no forced entry apparent,

and we can't find anything missing from the home. So naturally, people start thinking murder. That's right, Nancy, but there's so many other things that could have taken place. And what I would be mostly concerned about, just from a behavioral perspective, is did this couple have any negative large events looming in their life, like a cancer diagnosis, not able to pay a mortgage? I know that sounds strange, but I would take that into account. Why was there a two-month break in talking to Jean Kackman's daughter? Because older couples are much more safe when they are in contact with their families. Were there bills that weren't paid? Was the door typically blocked open? Was there a caregiver or somebody who came in and out of the house? Was there an accountant who paid their bills?

How was their food prepared? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. At this hour, regarding the deaths of Gene Hackman and his devoted wife, Betsy, at this hour, we are learning that Hackman's family is also blocking autopsy results for both the star actor and his wife. Reportedly, Hackman's family seeking to block the autopsy reports, photos and investigation details regarding the actor and his wife. She was a classical pianist.

Betsy was. Now, the move is highly unusual to try and block autopsy reports, but it could be because of the interest in his case and they don't want the photos from the death, including photos of their dead bodies and more, to be released to the public. And do you blame them? I don't. We don't know where that is going to land,

but this is what we do know about their deaths. From this search warrant, there were two green and color cell phones, two bottles of medication, one bottle of over-the-counter Tylenol, my request medical records, and a 2025 monthly planner calendar. Mr. Hackman and Ms. Arakawa were transported to the office of the medical investigator. An autopsy was performed. Initial findings noted no external trauma to either individual. The manner and cause of death has not been determined. The official results of the autopsy and toxicology reports are pending. Is that correct, Jessica? No external trauma. That means no gunshot wound, no stabbing, no obvious signs of ligature or manual strangulation, no bludgeoning. Correct? Correct. I mean, it's definitely a suspicious case and there's no clear trauma to the body. What we do know is that investigators found several types of pills, thyroid medication, blood pressure medication,

and over-the-counter Tylenol. One of the things that's being reported right now from the New York Times is that the pills that were found in your Betsy's body are still unidentified. So we don't quite know why those pills that were scattered, what those pills that were scattered on the countertop necessarily were. And we know that these two were found in separate rooms. Gene appeared to have been found in what would be the home's mudroom with his cane nearby and his sunglasses nearby, looking as if he had just simply fallen, whereas she appeared to have possibly fallen and knocked over a space heater on her way down in the bathroom. But we

just don't have the answers yet. We don't understand why both of these people were found dead. And definitely, it appears that they were found, they had passed at least in the last couple of weeks because people had seen them three weeks ago in the neighborhood. Dr. William Maroney joining us right now, medical examiner, lightning round. This is a yes, no. Can you die of a thyroid overdose? Thyroid medicine? Not that fast. Yes, not that fast. Okay. What about blood pressure meds? Can you die of an OD on blood pressure meds? That blood pressure medicine specifically is known as a calcium channel blocker. One of the things it does is it slows the heart rate.

If you took too much, it would stop your heart. But wouldn't that show up in the autopsy? No. Well, see, the problem with the autopsy and things like that is they have a predetermined panel of illegal drugs they look at. They might have to send out a diltiazem toxicology to somebody else because for the same reason that the animal toxicology and autopsies are done faster i don't know that uh any medical examiner can give you a fast level of diltiazem levels uh diacetyldiltiazem would be the metabolite and you'd look at both of them to see if it was an acute like took a handful and then died or whether we're just taking too much you, and it slowed your heart rate.

It's a calcium channel blocker. That would require, but Joshua Ritter joining me, a high-profile criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, star of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube. Joshua, it's not working. Everything he just said, Moroni is correct, but you would have to assume that she, the wife, Betsy decided to OD on BP blood pressure pills. Then he OD'd on blood pressure pills in a different area, fully clothed, looking like he was about to walk out the door. Um, and the dog, they force fed the dog blood pressure medication.

I'm just, it doesn't fit this scenario, Josh Ritter. I understand why the murder theories are taking root. No, absolutely. None of it seems to add up because you have two people who seem to have collapsed where they stood. That's my biggest problem is it's not like they were, one of them was lying in bed or sitting on a chair. They literally seem to have been standing and then collapsed on the floor and were found where they stood. And it seems, I think it's safe to assume and surmise that it happened

close in time to each other because neither one of them called 911 for assistance on the other person. So you've got to assume you've got now got two people who collapsed where they stood close in time to each other, if not at the same time. To me, that's absolutely suspicious. You have to look into that. I think you have to do exactly what law enforcement is doing, getting search warrants, starting to gather information, not jumping to any kind of conclusions, because do these types of things happen where two people might collapse close in time to each other i i i'm sure that they may have happened before in the past but to assume that that's exactly what happened here and it was either like you said natural causes or or some sort of accident i think would be a mistake at this point in the investigation. Yeah, I'm over at their property. There's no address here. So I have to meet the ambulance or the police, whoever, down at the gatehouse.

I'll bring them up here. Oh, dude, no. I'm sorry. Are they moving at all? No, dude, they're not moving. Just send somebody up here really quick. And in less hours, we learn an obvious possible cause of death has been ruled out. Both individuals tested negative for carbon monoxide.

An initial interrogation was conducted of Mr. Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his last event was recorded on February 17th, 2025. Dr. William Roney, what does that mean, his last event? You mean, for instance, the last time the pacemaker was on? No, the last time the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His heart was monitored by the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His heart was monitored by the pacemaker. And what that says to me, once you die, the pacemaker continues to send spikes, but the heart no longer responds. There is no event that the heart is responding to. And they see when that is. So that would be like the traditional all-American heart attack happened on that day. And after that event, the heart no longer was beating.

That's the event he's talking about. Okay. Cheryl McCollum joining us, Cold Case Investigative Research Institute. Cheryl, my first thought was carbon monoxide. But then when I heard the door was a jar, in my mind, that ruled out carbon monoxide. And the fact that the dog is dead, too. To me, that rules out accident. Because you want me to think Gene Hackman had an accident and died, then his wife had an accident and died, and then the dog had an accident and died? No. Agreed. So what we would do in this situation is look at what is there and what's not there. Some of the things that aren't there, there's no blood, there's no weapon, there's no shell casings, there's no sign of a struggle. Nothing of value is missing. There's no note.

Most importantly, there was not a 911 call that came from inside that residence for help. So whatever transpired, it does seem happened very quickly. Again, it's going to go back to patterns. You have two animals that were not in a crate that survived. Why was the one in the crate? People that are close to them may be able to tell law enforcement the German Shepherd is put in the crate when, you know, Mr. Hackman goes for a walk. He had sunglasses and a cane and was dressed. Perhaps he was headed outside when either he fell or whatever occurred happened. But that's the kind of thing you're going to, you going to run into is two almost parallel investigations.

You're going to look at what happened to Mr. Hackman and what happened to his wife, and you would almost do two separate investigations there. You're absolutely correct. Two separate investigations. And we are learning, according to law enforcement, that they can't determine who died first, which could be critical into solving the mystery of Gene Hackman's death. Listen. That's a very hard thing to determine. Even with the assistance of OMI, we ask that question because that's a question that we want answered. That's a

very hard determination to make. And I don't think even OMI could make that determination based on the initial autopsy. What about it, Dr. Maroney, determining who died first? It's impossible. You know what time he died. You don't have a timeline for when she died and how it happened. Two separate investigations and you can't determine who was first unless there was security cameras and there's no security cameras. Wait a minute. Hold on.

Dr. Maroney, isn't it true if one of them died substantially, significantly before the other, the degree of decomposition would be different? It would have to be a good full half day or full day before. You can't really tell a couple hours, but if it was like a full half day before. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Also in the last days, we are learning that Gene Hackman made a huge mistake before his shock death as a major battle over his $80 million estate looms.

What was the mistake? He had a living trust at the time of his death at 95, but all the people he listed as successor trustees were already dead before he passed. Now, according to documents we have learned about, a representative of Hackman's estate filed a petition requesting a new temporary successor trustee be appointed. That means Gene Hackman's estate is in flux right now. We are also learning the fate of Hackman's and Betsy's surviving dogs. They love them and treated them like children. We know seven-year-old German Shepherd Bear and Nikita have lost each other's companionship.

They have been split up, but they are placed in loving, welcoming homes after enduring weeks of hell in the house where their beloved mom and dad, Jane and Betsy, passed away. Where were the other two dogs? Do we know? You know, from the 911 calls, we hear the dogs barking in the background. We're, of course, assuming that those were the Hackman's dogs. We don't know where they were found, but the way the 911 calls play out, it sounds like they're just kind of roaming around on the property. It doesn't seem like they're inside anywhere. It just seems like they're kind of like freewheeling outside from just from the way the 911 calls are, the way the echoing of the dogs barking in the background can be heard. Now we hear the Santa Fe County Sheriff Adam Mendoza stating he's trying to create a reverse timeline.

Again, that'll be part of our investigation. We will look and try to gain access to the cell phones. We'll be analyzing cell phone data, phone calls, text messages, events, photos in the cell phone to try to piece a timeline together. One of the things in an investigation is we try to piece a timeline together, usually before the event happens, and that gives us a lot of information. But in this case, it seems like we're doing a reverse timeline. We're doing a timeline from the time of death and the autopsy and the results, and we're going to start working our way backwards.

We're going to do both and then hopefully make a determination what may have happened to both the individuals. Okay. A reverse timeline based on digital. What does that mean? Looking at cell phone data, computer data, who were they speaking to? When, what were they looking up on Google? When's the last time they logged in or made a phone call? Not only that, when was the last time people called them and they didn't pick up? There's more to it, Cheryl McCollum. Think back, dare I bring his name up, conjure him, Alex Murdoch. The digital data in that case was overwhelming.

As a matter of fact, I believe that's how the state finally proved Murdoch guilty of double murder and the deaths of his wife, Maggie, and son, Paul. The cell phone data compared with the geopositioning and the nav system in his suburban really nailed his coffin. So what do you make of the fact that they're making a reverse timeline, Cheryl? And also they have seized, pursuant to Warren, of course, their daytime planners. What does that tell you they're looking at? So they're going to take that planner and they're going to cross-check it with what was looked at on the phone, dates, calls, appointments, any future event they had. The person that actually found them was somebody on the property doing work. That would be in their planner. So they're going to look at all that to make sure everything lines up and coincides with what they know the Hackmans were doing the weeks before and what they had planned the week after.

Well, you know, Josh Ritter, you and I have tried on different sides of the fence, of course, many, many homicide cases. And I look at planners to determine, did they have plans in the future? In other words, when people have plans in the future, they don't usually commit suicide if they're looking forward to something like my twin spring break. I'm looking forward to that. OK, That's just an example. But also for forensic reasons, for probative reasons, you look to see who's the last

person there the day that his pacemaker stopped working. What were they doing? Who was in the home? What was happening? That's why they're looking at the planner, Josh. Absolutely. They're trying to reconstruct the events leading up to it. And to your point, too, are there events, are there appointments in the future? And if so, does that show planning for the future, which you might be able to rule out suicide? But did they miss appointments that no one noticed? And should those people have noticed?

Do they have an appointment with someone and they didn't meet that appointment with that person and that person didn't alert anyone or didn't seem bothered by the fact that they missed this event? So I think the planner can be a treasure trove of information as far as not only their mundane day-to-day life, but also the events that they had planned before and after and what that might provide some insight into this investigation. So, you know, I respect Mr. Hackman's and Ms. Arakawa's regard for privacy. I think everybody here understands that they were very private individuals and a very private family. There is no surveillance, as we know of right now in the

interior of the residence or the exterior of the residence that is going to help us determine a timeline or events that happened. That was Santa Fe County Sheriff speaking, Aiden Mendoza. What does that mean to me? No surveillance. No surveillance. And let me clarify that. Cheryl McCollum, there's no home surveillance in the home of a multi-time Oscar winner. Correct. No surveillance. Hence, the theories of murder and or suicide are abounding. To Jessica Finn, carbon monoxide, and I've got a huge list of celebs and others that die of carbon monoxide, has been ruled out. The levels tested in the autopsy prove it wasn't CM. That was everyone's first thought.

That's been put to bed. No one sees suicide either. It just doesn't make sense that they would both commit suicide in different rooms with no suicide note, falling like that, appearing as if they had fallen. I mean, hold on, Dr. William Maroney, the method and assessment of suicide is not consistent with the way these bodies were found. No, suicide usually means there's some kind of preparation. It doesn't always mean a note, but it means somebody's taken time to send a message and organize clothes, pills. They look nice. There's text messages and other communications that would give you a clue that suicide is a possibility and that usually follows treatment, resistance, depression, that we don't have any sign that these people have major depressive disorders.

Not at all. As a matter of fact, Jessica Finn, the U.S. son, the daughter says that her dad was actually doing great, doing Pilates and yoga multiple times a week. They were going out to dinner with friends. Nothing suggests a suicide. Yeah. Gene and his wife really took care of their health. They were really active in the community. She made sure that he was in top top notch shape. He was doing Pilates, like you said, staying fit. The whole investigation gives us more questions than there are answers. I mean, for both of these people to have died and they look like they dropped where they were standing in two separate places in the home. You know, we can't figure out whether this was what kind of foul play that the police are investigating

at this moment. But yeah, it certainly is a conundrum. It doesn't it doesn't seem like these people were in distress together and they were very much in love from what we've heard. No, I don't think, you know, there was any indication that that again, there was no trauma indicated on the body. I'm assuming if they would have fell or, you know, injured themselves or a head injury or brain injury, that would have been discovered by the pathologist. So I'm going to say that they weren't. So to Dr. Bethany Marshall, there's no indication this was an accident. You just heard the Santa Fe sheriff say that. And plus, if one had an accident, what, the other has an accident

and the dog has an accident? That doesn't make sense. We're not getting that the dog starved. Nothing like that. So the sheriff is saying no accident. There's no carbon monoxide. Let's deal with suicide because I don't see suicide either. I don't see suicide either. And that's why I asked earlier, was there some catastrophic event looming in their lives, which would make them not want to live. You know, Nancy, there's an untold story here that I'm very curious about. And that is,

even though he was well and doing Pilates and taking walks, had she become his caregiver? I do treat couples in my practice where one partner is ill and the other one is the caregiver. And especially when it's a family member, they typically refuse respite care, meaning they don't want other people to come in and help. They want to provide the primary care because they love their family member. And the caregiver's health typically breaks down over time. In fact, statistically, we know that there's a greater likelihood of a caregiver dying prematurely when they are taking care of a family member. So had her health been breaking down? And in that case, doctor's records and also looking at that day planner and seeing how many appointments was she going to?

How many appointments was she taking him to? Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. Dr. Bethany, everything you're saying is correct. However, friends that just went out with them say that they were happy, healthy, doing really well, giving no sign that his wife, Betsy, was on the decline. As a matter of fact, she devoted herself to him. I'm just not seeing suicide. So Dr. William Maroney, there are only so many CODs, cause of death. You've got suicide ruled out.

There's no trauma. There's no OD. You've got carbon monoxide ruled out. You're the sheriff ruling out accident. All that's left is what? Murder, homicide, and unexplained. Yes. Number one, homicide. Number one, homicide.

Number two, accident. Number three, natural. Number four, suicide. And number five would be indeterminate. That's our five causes. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

This is an iHeart Podcast.