Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - New "FANS' for Kohberger?

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger is gaining sympathy online.  There are a handfull of social media groups which support the accused killer, saying he is not guilty. Nancy Grace and attorney Dale Carson look at the participation. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Ever since Brian Koberger was arrested in the quadruple slay of four incredible, beautiful University of Idaho students, he's been causing one drama after the next. Right now, we are learning, believe it or not, that the Idaho murder suspect, Brian Koberger, has developed admirers who are in love with him, who lavish praise upon him, and who question his guilt. Also, a group has emerged called Justice for Brian. Justice for Brian Koberger. These Koberger sympathizers praise his looks. They think he's handsome and they create pictures of him for online and they edit on hearts onto him in his jail jumpsuit. Sidney, I better not find out that you're one of them.

With me, high-profile lawyer out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction and also a former FBI agent, Dale Carson is joining us from DaleCarsonLaw.com. What about this? Idaho murder suspect Brian Koberger has a very active following amongst sympathetic social media enthusiasts that actually put hearts and at hearts onto his jumpsuit. Help me, Dale Carson. I really find that rather appalling, but I look back to the Charles Manson behavior where he had a cult of women

that followed him around before the killings and then afterwards received love letters just constantly for all these years. And if I'm not mistaken, he got married before he passed away. So then you have Ted Bundy. And Bundy was certainly that. He used that rather male attractiveness to target young women. Well, he used his male attractiveness. I didn't think Bundy was

attractive. He looks like Satan. He looks exactly like Satan straight from hell. Of course, you and I would not necessarily be attracted by that. But of course, many young women attempted to help him when he faked a cast injury and those sorts of things which led to their ultimate deaths. Yes, it did. It led to their murders. A fake cast. You know what's interesting? Well, there's so much interesting about it. I'm going to circle back to these largely women that are editing photos of Koberger and placing them online with hearts attached to his prison jumpsuit. And that should really be a red bell of alarm in your brain when you find yourself attaching editing hearts onto someone's prison jumpsuit. Ding, ding, ding I got the wrong guy and I know you're not a shrink Dale but I know this

you've defended a lot of cases and how many times has a young woman or a woman been that it's old enough to know better been led down the garden path by a guy who's just absolutely no good. You know what? And this is another lesson for you, Sidney. I don't know why women go after the bad choices. You know what? I think they get so addicted to the drama of the bad choice

that when they find a good, decent guy, he's boring to them. Let me tell you, good and decent is not boring in addition to all of these lovelorn women that are editing hearts onto his prison jumpsuit there is there are about 3 000 members of justice for brian coberger on facebook it was was created not too many days after his arrest. There is a Brian Nation, Brian Nation, B-R-Y-A-N-A-T-I-O-N on Reddit with a thread titled, What was it about Brian that got your liking? Answer, nothing, but apparently some people have a different answer. And there is r slash Brian Koberger. That's another thread.

It has another thread title, Why Brian Koberger is Not Guilty. And they are getting hundreds and hundreds of comments. People are actually reading this, Dale Carson. Well, what a way to get what a way to get commentary on your own existence, right? You demonstrate that you're unusual and that you have a propensity to love people who shouldn't be loved. And of course, you're creating an environment for yourself where people will pay attention to people who otherwise wouldn't have any attention placed on them at all. So I think it's a mechanism of attention gathering.

There is a Facebook user who says, quote, she's a single mom from Kentucky. She's written dozens and dozens of love letters. And she describes Brian Koberger as her, quote, divine masculine, end quote. I don't understand the attraction um of course at the same time he is charged by the state of quadruple murder there are tales from women that have met him face to face you've i've talked about that dale carson number one the women at bars that he goes up to and goes, hey, what's your address? I would run for the hills if someone said that. And then, of course, those poor students that worked under him when he was their TA and he has been accused of misogyny, hatred of women, of treating the female students differently,

being much more harsh, greater upon them on them and their work. So I'm very intrigued by these women that have a huge crush on Brian Koberger. And they're not just saying, hey, I've got a crush. They're saying, hey, he's not guilty. I certainly hope someone like that doesn't end up on his jury. Well, and of course, that's the whole point of Vodire, is to challenge jurors to make sure they don't have an unfair bias when the state prosecutes the case. But the evidence against Koeberger is significant and substantial. The only thing we don't have from him is a confession. You know, one of these groups, Justice for Brian Koeberger, has created a lot of outrage on social media.

And there is a quote on there from Ronald Jones, who was the guy who was wrongly convicted of murder and was given a death sentence. And he says, it's about whether or not you can prove you're innocent he says now it's guilty until proven innocent that is absolutely not true i mean look at robert blake who walked look at michael jackson who walked look at oj simpson who walked look at top mom casey anthony who walked clearly all of them were guilty. No question. And they all were acquitted. So it is not guilty until proven innocent. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Well, I agree with you. I think that the whole point of the defense bar is to challenge the government to make certain that when it does convict an individual, that they truly should be convicted. And I think

that plays out in this country. I agree with people who say that it's innocent until proven guilty. But it's hard to push that narrative in the face of social media because they want it to be something different. They want to tear down our existing structures. They want to sort of recalibrate everything we hold as tradition and value. And that has an effect on the criminal justice system. And it certainly presents itself in awkward ways on social media because these people are basically anonymous. They can say whatever they want and they're thrusting their finger into the eye of tradition. And they seem to like do that. And a certain number of people, percentage of people do that as routine behavior. And those people are dangerous to all

of us. Also, although he will most likely exercise his Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, he has indicated through others that he is, quote, eager to be exonerated. That reminds me of when O.J. Simpson stood up and when the judge asked him to enter his plea, he said 100 percent not guilty. I mean, he was very convincing to those that had not examined the facts, that he was eager to be exonerated. As Koberger is saying, he was 100 percent not guilty. He had a lot of bravado to his response. What do you make of Koberger putting it out there, eager to be exonerated? Your quote is accurate. That is promoted by people who don't know the facts because they don't want to hear the facts.

They want to be contrarians. And, of course, that fortunately is not what prevails in the criminal justice system in the United States generally. Now, any system makes mistakes, but you can't always be judged by your mistakes. This is the strongest criminal justice system where the defendant does have opportunity to challenge the government's interest in a public trial where their potential crime can be examined by a group of peers who will determine whether or not the state meets its burden. Where else in the world do we have that sort of exacting criminal justice system? I'm not, maybe England, maybe a few other countries, but overall, very, very few. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me throw another theory at you.

The myth of the psychopath. You know, there is a mental disorder, it doesn't rise to insanity, called psychopathy, being a psychopath. Because we hear people refer to Brian Koberger as, well. He's a psychopath. As if that somehow excuses everything he has done. For instance, you always read about these Hollywood stars that are cheating on their wives. They go, oh, you know, I'm a sex addict. I'm going to go to rehab. BS, that that is not an excuse. I don't believe that. I think that there may be a problem within you that you seek out meaningless sex or sex without any emotional attachment. But that is not an excuse for what you're doing. It's not a defense for what you're doing. It's not a defense for what you're doing.

Like voluntary consumption of alcohol or drugs is typically not a defense under the law. Or else everybody in the Fulton County jail would walk free right now. They go, oh, I was drunk. Not guilty. So just claiming as if it's some type of an explanation, Koberger's a psychopath. I'm not buying into that, Dale Carson. these psychiatrists use to determine whether or not someone has an illness which causes them to do these things really is not something that should be used to validate whether they know the difference from right and wrong, which is the standard. And so it's beyond belief that Koberger didn't know when he was allegedly stabbing these young women, entering a house in the middle of the night and taking their lives, that he didn't know that that's not something that a human being is supposed to do to another human being. So from my perspective, whatever they consider him,

the psychiatrist consider him, doesn't eliminate the need for us to understand that that individual knew the difference between right and wrong and knows the difference between right and wrong. And he should be held responsible for his own conduct, as we all should be. You know why I believe people come up with theories about why someone committed a crime? I think it's because we want very much to understand. We want to apply logic to an illogical situation. About five years in, I was sitting in court one day. The jury wasn't there, Dale. I looked over at the defendant. I thought, why did he do this? I thought, wait a minute. Why am I wondering why? It's a complete waste of time because I'll never know why he committed a murder. That's what we're trying to do with Koberger. We're saying, oh, he's a psychopath.

That's why he did it. Well, don't you think we want to know that so that we can look at people and say that person's dangerous, that person's not dangerous, even though we know we can't do that? Okay, say that one more time. I think that we want to be able to look at people and identify them as dangerous, because that's important to our survival. But I don't think we can really do that. And I do know that women have a better mechanism for detecting bull and danger than men do. Typically, you all have a sense for it, which protects you in interesting ways that men simply don't have. I mean, our aggression comes out directly in physical activity or shouting

and things of that nature, whereas women are much better at determining if someone's dangerous and avoiding that danger instead of engaging it with the male pride that they fortunately don't have. I think people try to make sense of what they say. Like, I remember watching Scott Peterson come in the courtroom all jacked up, you know, like a football player, or as we like to say, bowed up. And I looked at him, Dale, and he, not to me, but some people thought he was physically attractive. He could be charming. Some people, not me, thought he had a great smile. I thought it was a devilish smile. He had a college degree. He was a great golfer. He had a beautiful wife, first child on the way, lovely home.

I remember looking through the window into their home on Covina and Lacey Peterson had it just decorated. It looked like a dollhouse. So beautifully done on the inside. He had it all right. His family worshipped him, loved him. He could do no wrong. So why would he do this thing? I think that's part of the reason that so many people believed Peterson was not guilty because it

just didn't make sense. It was like the eye was checking the mind. And here I think people are trying to basically medicalize hate and evil and mens rea and malice and premeditation because it's hard for people to accept coberger could do this to these three beautiful girls in this wonderful handsome young man ethan shape and it's very hard with no real motive to take in why he would do that so we try to rationalize it we try to medicalize it oh We try to medicalize it. Oh, he's a psychopath. You know, that's what you know, my view, my view, though, Nancy, is that he did have a

relationship with those women. And it was not a relationship that was based in reality. It was a vicarious relationship that was garnered through looking into the windows late at night and watching these people enjoy life in a manner that he could not. And that's what precipitated his anger. I mean, I'm convinced that when he got fired, that that was the trigger point that led him to just blow out because he's angry. And the only way to satisfy that anger is what I mentioned earlier is aggression. And he has a deep well of that aggression in him that causes him to act out in that way. But that doesn't mean he should be designated as a psychopath and somehow forgiven.

It doesn't mean that at all. What it means is we need to learn from this horror and somehow metabolize it in a way that we can prevent the people we love from being injured by this sort of behavior and this animalistic nature. Can I tell you something, Dale Carson? Brian Kuyberger makes my head hurt. I think it's because there is no reason why.

And I can try to fit it together and put the puzzle pieces together and analyze his phone data. And there's this and there's that. The bottom line is, based on what we know right now, he did it. And I don't know if he's a psychopath. I don't know if he is criminally insane. I don't think so. And that's what's giving me a headache. To think that a seemingly normal person could do this, this horrible thing.

Wayne Williams was the same. I mean, we never did figure... Wayne Williams was a grade A a-hole that had been spoiled rotten by his parents from day one, and they facilitated what he did. He was nowhere near normal. And of course, he wasn't somebody that you'd pick out of the lineup and say, that's a bad guy and we need to put him in custody. That's the problem.

You're right. He looked kind of harmless, didn't he? He did. When I talked to him, which I was the only agent in the federal side that ever spoke with Wayne, I looked into his eyes. Don't call him by his first name like he's your buddy. You're not having lunch tomorrow. That's right. Williams, one could not see the evil in him, I'll just tell you, which always kind of stunned me because we knew he was responsible for many, many deaths. And the violence that was committed against them was not anything that was sexual in nature, which was another bizarre aspect of that particular case. I just hope that no one on Koberger's jury is tricked into believing he has some sort of mental excuse for what he did,

because it's very hard for many people to accept some people are just evil, or let me rephrase, some people do evil things for really no reason. It's really hard to take that in, but we wait as justice unfolds. Dale Carson, high profile lawyer, Jacksonville, dalecarsonlaw.com. Thank you, buddy. This is an iHeart Podcast.