Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - New Kelsey Berreth clues: Will more arrests come in Colorado mom's murder?

Episode Date: December 26, 2018

Kelsey Berreth's fiance' is awaiting arraignment on a charge of murdering the Colorado mom, but did Patrick Frazee have help in covering up the killing for a month? The search for Berreth's remains continues with authorities in Twin Falls, Idaho, investigating why her phone pinged from that city days after she vanished. Nancy Grace explores the latest in the case with experts including juvenile judge & lawyer Ashley Willcott, pyschologist Caryn Stark, syndicated radio host David Mack, and CrimeOnline.com reporter Ellen Killoran. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We arrested Patrick Frazee on charges of first-degree murder of Kelsey Barrett, and he is currently being held in the Teller County Jail. As a reminder, Patrick Frazee is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Patrick Frazee was taken into custody this morning in Florissant, Colorado, just after seven o'clock this morning, Mountain Standard Time, by members of the Multi-Jurisdictional Task Force, including the Teller County Sheriff's Office and the FBI. Patrick was taken to the Teller County Jail, where he'll be held. Kelsey's daughter, Kaylee, is in protective custody and will be reunited with Kelsey's family. I cannot stress enough that this is a difficult time for Kelsey's family. They are not providing interviews, period.

Please respect the family's request. This has been a methodical and time-consuming multi-state operation with investigators working nearly around the clock to find Kelsey. While we have not found Kelsey at this time, information has been developed that is helping to narrow down our search. As you can tell from the arrest, sadly, we do not believe Kelsey is still alive. The search for missing Colorado mom Kelsey Barrett has come to an end and not the way we wanted in the last hours her fiance Patrick Frazee has appeared in court on charges on not only murder one but solicitation of murder which in the vernacular in that local

jurisdiction means that authorities believe he asked for help asked for help to kill the mother of his one-year-old tot Kelly I'm Nancy grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us Patrick Frazee in court he has had a reading of charges against him he is currently being held on no bond how did we get here straight out to syndicated talk show host Dave Mack? Let's just take it from the moment of his arrest. What has happened since then? And then we'll backtrack. Well, since his arrest, we know that the charge of murder and the solicitation, that there was somebody with him at his house when the police arrested him.

And it was female. She was not detained and has not been charged. So the only assumption, and we know what happens there, is that whoever he solicited to kill his fiancee is actually the person who rolled over on him that got us the information that drove the police back into her house and his house to look for evidence. Let's analyze again exactly what police say in their press or what can we learn. Listen. So your question of is if there is an additional, if there are additional arrests related to a solicitation charge, that's an absolute possibility, but I'm not going to guess on that at this point. Straight out to Ashley Wilcott joining us. Judge, lawyer, you can find her at AshleyWilcott.com on Facebook.

Ashley, thanks for being with us. I noticed when the police chief, Miles DeYoung, was asked, he said there absolutely, and he said it with such, let me just say, verve. And he also said there may be other arrests, plural. What does that tell you, Ashley? Because in that jurisdiction, I looked up exactly what they meant by solicitation. To break it down out of Latin, which lawyers love to talk in Latin, it means to ask someone for help. Help in what? Covering up. They said specifically solicitation for murder, not accessory after the fact,

such as hiding the body or cleaning up the home, which bring me back to that in a moment, Dave Mack, because I'm convinced the incident occurred at her townhome. But what do you make of it? Well, that's what I think, too. I think it occurred at the townhome. What it means is someone else was involved. Someone else was there, I think, complicit in the murder, whether they had her, you know, distracted her so that he could do it, whether they said, oh, I need you to come over because someone else is involved. My guess, my bet, is it's another woman. Big surprise.

Another woman or the woman who loves him the most in the world, his mother. Now, you know, and, of course, guys, we're just talking about potential women in his life. No girlfriend, no mother, no grandma, no auntie. Nobody has been named a suspect or a person of interest, all right? But who could you convince to help you? There have been reports it is a woman. A woman was with him at the time of his arrest. Does that make it a woman? No. As a matter of fact, isn't it true? To Alan Duke, my partner in crime, joining me out in LA, cops were watching him with binoculars,

watching the fiance, Patrick Frazee, through binoculars when he went to a dump. Who was with him? Not a woman, but two men in a white pickup with a trailer attached onto the back. So we are speculating that it's a woman because we've heard reports it's a woman, but it could still be a man. I've actually talked to sources close to the investigation, and they would not tell me if it's a man or a woman. They, in fact, sometimes would refer to the she and sometimes would not refer to the she as if the other possible person who might be arrested as to their gender. To Karen Stark, joining us from Manhattan today. Karen, here's my thought on that.

You know, I thought I knew it all. I tried, you know, I don't know how many, well over 100 cases, investigated thousands of cases, you know, thousands of appearances in court. I didn't know a thing until I had the twins. And I think you can agree with me on that because you know me pre and post twin. What I'm saying is there is no love like a mother's love. I don't care what man you meet, who you think you're so in love with. There's nothing like a mother's love. That is why the mother has been bandied about as a co-conspirator.

That's the only reason. That's it. She hasn't done anything. She hasn't said anything. You haven't seen police digging up her yard or ransacking her home. Nothing like that. It's just simply based on a bond of what we believe would be love. That's it. But I want you to weigh in on that. It's hard to believe. I understand what you're saying, Nancy, and I know that the twins are your life and i'm sure that this mother feels the same way about her son um but it's still hard to believe that she would be complicit at least for me and in a murder charge that she would help a son maybe cover up that i could i could understand but in in terms of actually helping him to kill her, I would be

really surprised. Okay, you know what, Karen Stark? I've got to agree with you. I could see a cover-up once my, if my son, God please help him not do anything wrong, had done something wrong and it was a fait accompli, a feat accomplished, it was over. I couldn't fix it. I couldn't change it. Yeah, I could see a cover-up. Absolutely being part of a cover-up to keep him out of jail. I absolutely could see me doing that out of blind, stupid love. But that's the way love is, right? It's stupid. So long story short, I don't see her raising a hand to Kelsey Barrett. I would see her trying to talk him out of it. Now here's the kicker. Out to you, Ashley Wilcott, judge and lawyer. Think back to Monica Lewinsky. Okay, everybody, hold your thought, because this is what I'm getting at. The world learned what lawyers had

to learn in law school. There is no privilege, no mother-child privilege in court, like attorney client or priest parishparishioner, you tell your mom or dad something, they can be forced to testify. They can be called to the stand, and there is no privilege to protect your communications. So if Patrick Frazee did tell his mother anything about this at all, even after the fact, that can come into evidence, Ashley Wilcott. Absolutely. It not only can come into evidence, I'm quite certain that it would come into evidence. And keep in mind, I can't help but remind all that what I said at the beginning of this was nobody hires a lawyer unless there's an issue. And he hired a lawyer from the get-go and didn't

want to talk and didn't do anything until he had a lawyer. The second part is solicitation could mean murder for hire. You know what? You're absolutely right about that. We are basing all of this legal line of reasoning and investigative reasoning based on what the police chief, Miles DeYoung, said at a press conference when asked, he said, there absolutely may be more arrests now if there is another party involved. And we know that there is, according to police anyway, because in the formal charges, as they exist now, first, you know, police charge you for an arrest. Then it goes to a grand jury or a preliminary hearing. Sometimes prosecutors will draw up charges on their own. And that becomes the indictment, the formal charges. It can change from what police have charged the person with.

They may drop the solicitation. They may add, you know, some type of obstruction, trying to throw cops off. What I'm saying is those charges can be reduced. They can be maximized. They can be added onto at the formal charge. Let's say grand jury or a preliminary hearing takes place. We're waiting to hear about that. What's going to happen? But right now we know another person is involved, according to police, because the fiance of Kelsey Barrett, the missing Colorado mom, whose body has yet to be found.

The fiance is charged not only with murder one, but solicitation. He asked for help, according to police. I still know somebody knows where she's at. Somebody has seen her. There's more information out there. Somebody just needs to realize realize to recognize and to say something has she ever disappeared before no no um i can't think of anywhere she's ever gone that she hasn't told me it's just not in her character to just take off and be gone as we were saying earlier there is no love like a mother's love you were just hearing the mother of Kelsey Barrett, the missing Colorado mom of a little girl, Kelly, just one year old, who will now be entering the new year, going through the holidays without mommy and without daddy. Joining me is an all-star panel. I mean, it would cost thousands and thousands of

dollars for an individual to hire these people to help them. Listen to who's talking to us today. Renowned psychologist Karen Stark joining us out of Manhattan. Syndicated talk show host Dave Mack. Forensics expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan. With me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter who's been breaking stories on this and every other crime news at CrimeOnline.com, Ellen Killoran, alias EK, and of course, my partner in crime in LA, Alan Duke here in the studio, Jackie Howard. Out to EK, Ellen Kaloran.

I want to talk about two things right now, and they are, as I always tell juries, one, two, three, and four. Let's start with one, okay? And then you go number one, A, B, C, D, E. Okay. So let's just break it down like that. Sorry, EK, law school does that to you. I want to talk about two things.

One, the fact that Kelsey Barrett's family, her mother at least, continued to say that Kelsey and Patrick Frazee, now charged in her murder, had a great relationship, very, very loving. In the last hours, we've heard about cracks in that veneer, that there may actually even be a love interest involved. That means a love triangle. I don't like it. And number two, there's the fact the family was standing by the fiancé. And number two, forensically, I have a lot of reason to believe that the murder occurred at her home, Kelsey Bear's home. So which one do you want to start with, E.K.? The mom or the home?

How about the home? Because the police addressed that specifically in the press conference on Friday. Let's do. Okay, first of all, to Dave Mack, let's talk about it. Dave Mack, we're going to follow up with EK, but at first, cops were all about Patrick Frazee's ranch, all right? 35-acre sprawling ranch. And as I said the other night on Nightline on ABC, they were not saying he was a POI, person of interest or suspect. But when you look out your kitchen window and you see the FBI with a backhoe, they got a bobcat out there.

You're in trouble, friend. You are in trouble. So it looked at first like they were focusing on his ranch. Came out with cadaver dogs, came up with nothing, at least no Kelsey. Maybe they found something else. But then a neighbor emerged, Dave Mack, a neighbor of Kelsey Barris who said at the time we believe she just got back from Safeway, you know she's on surveillance video with her daughter

Kelly. Her two vehicles, she's a flight instructor she's got two vehicles parked in her townhome they were parked as normal like facing the home nose in and then parked t-boned perpendicular to them like hemming them in was a second red pickup she had a red pickup he had a red pickup he was there why was he parked like that but I heard that I like that's not right why is uh-uh and so we see the cops then suddenly after the neighbor came forward zoning in on her townhome day Mac that's where they went in you know it's amazing you mentioned them

showing up at that with backhoes and everything else at his ranch and They did cart off about seven bags worth of stuff and everything else, but it was only when they got back to her place, that townhome, that they were able to find, apparently, and we're having to guess because we've done this a long time, but they haven't said exactly what they got. They got enough information, which you've got to assume is blood-related, to know that Kelsey is no longer with us because that's what they've said. Sadly, we do not believe Kelsey is still alive. And the only way they can know that is from their discussion with the fiance, his attorney, or the blood evidence that exists inside her town hall, her town home. Well, I agree with him too. Ellen Kaloran, AKA EK, Ellen joining us, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, EK, we learned a lot in that presser, we do not have a body. People still holding out hope she could be alive.

And I don't like being the one to say this, but she is no longer with us in this world. And it's based on something they found in that townhome. And this is interesting, very interesting, Ellen. When they first went into the townhome, everything appeared to be normal. I'm talking about her brother, Kelsey's brother. He came out with a head of steam. He said everything's fine, nothing's moved. There's cinnamon rolls that have cooled on the counter. Obviously, you know, she was, you know, making them for Kelly and everything

is perfectly in order. Her suitcases are here. She's not gone on a trip. Both of her vehicles are here. The only thing missing, her pocketbook and cell phone. But then when cops came in, which means what they saw was invisible to the naked eye of the brother, they make an arrest for murder one. Was there a pool of blood that was cleaned up and detected by luminol? Did they find blood spatter in a place it shouldn't be? I don't mean you shave your legs and cut your ankle and there's some blood in the tub. No, I mean blood spatter, so just from a gunshot or from a blowback or blood spatter up on the ceiling, which means a hammer or a bat or an object, a blunt object was used to hit her. They found something, and suddenly we got a murder one charge.

Wait in, Ellen Kaloran. That's right, Nancy. Whatever investigators found in Kelty Bear's townhouse in the last few days wasn't something that was immediately obvious to a non-investigator. So it was something that had to be detected. They were in the house a couple of times last week. There were follow-up visits. And we know that, well, we can speculate strongly that something was

found thursday night that was very strong evidence because it was the next day that patrick crazy was arrested just hours later but i would also argue that in addition to whatever physical evidence they found and as we said there is no body yet i. I would speculate that there's also something coming from whatever third or more parties are included in the solicitation charge, because we know that there is another person or people somehow involved in this crime. And Nancy, just in the last few hours, there's been some new information. Out in Idaho, Twin Falls police have released a statement saying that they have discovered possible evidence related to this case. They have not said what it is, but it's significant because we know that Kelsey Barris' cell phone pinged near Gooding,

Idaho on November 25th, three days after she went missing, and Twin Falls, Idaho is probably 40, 45 miles from that area. My thought exactly, EK, because I've been wondering from the get-go whether her body is wherever that cell phone ping nearly 800 miles away from home. Listen. Yes, her phone did end up in Idaho and we're still working to recover that phone. And that's about all I can comment. But that phone information was accurate. Her phone did end up in Idaho and we're working to try to recover that. Hi, Nancy Grace here. Have you ever Googled yourself, your neighbors, somebody at work, a crush?

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children consider using truth finder what you find may astound you go to truthfinder.com forward slash nancy right away to start searching. Truthfinder.com forward slash Nancy. Truthfinder.com forward slash Nancy. Find the truth. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She's fairly quiet. I mean, she's really reserved. Usually she was always, you know, the homebody. If she wasn't at school or work, she was, you know, hanging out at home. She used to

always tell me that she wanted to marry a godly man. She was pretty strong-willed in her beliefs, and sometimes I thought she couldn't find anybody that was stronger than her, and that's what she wanted. And she considers her mother her best friend Kelsey and her mom typically talk quite often I mean they were attached to the hips and she was little I'm Nancy Grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us in the last hours the fiance of missing mom Kelsey Barrett has been in court. That is SOP, Standard Operating Procedure. He is being held without bond.

The search for Kelsey has come to an end, and not in the way we wanted. Her fiancé, Patrick Frazee, charged with murder, but in the last hours, stunning developments unfolding there in Colorado. With me, Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer. You can find her at Ashley Wilcott on Facebook. Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert.

Ellen Kaloran, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. And Karen Stark, renowned psychologist, joining us out of New York. With me in L.A., Alan Duke here in the studio, Jackie Howard. I want to talk about love, love interest. I'll get back to the mother. But Karen Stark, how many times have I prosecuted a murder or some crazy crime, and the first place you look is the so-called love interest the husband

the wife the boyfriend the girlfriend the ex the what it could be any variation of that in this case do you suspect and I did not suspect this at first do you suspect he had a lover I mean look at Chris Watts, beautiful wife, two children, Bella and Celeste. He kills all of them and forces his daughter's body, ages three and four, into oil canisters. You know, just the oil canisters were eight inches wide at the opening. The children's shoulders were at least nine inches.

So imagine that scenario for a moment. You've got Scott Peterson, kill Lacey and his unborn child, Connor. I mean, it goes on and on. You think, why? Why didn't they just get a divorce? It's so elementary. Karen, help me. Well, I guess, Nancy, there would be no crimes if that were the case, if they could just be logical and say,

this relationship is over and I'm just going to get out of it. But instead, you're talking about people who are capable of committing murder, which means that they are psychopaths and they don't have the kind of emotions that would make them just say, I can't possibly think of killing someone. That's one of the first things that come to mind. Gee, I'm in this dilemma. I've got somebody else I love, so I think I'll just get rid of the person that I'm with. And honestly, it's that kind of thinking that happens in a criminal mind. That's what

you're talking about. And we've covered it over and over again. To Ellen Kaloran, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Ellen, is there a girlfriend? Because at the get-go, Alan Duke, Alan Duke, who I love to argue with, kept going, she didn't have a wedding dress. And I kept saying, Alan, I, Alan, we decided, David and I, on Tuesday to get married. We got married on Saturday. We were more interested in getting enough food and booze for those that drank at the wedding. It was very small. I brought up my pastor of my youth that helped me get through my fiance's murder, Bill William Oliver. He came to the wedding. We had a very small wedding.

I thought, oh, my stars, I don't have a dress. I ordered a dress. I would not call it a wedding dress. It is now in two sizes, okay, to make sure one of them would fit. And I marched myself over to, what's the shoe warehouse? Is it DSK? I can't remember now. What is it? What's the name of that warehouse, Ellen? Okay, I know. That's it. I was going to have to go to backup with Ashley Wilcox. I know she has a daughter that would know just exactly what it is. Got some shoes and bam, we were married. So I poo-pooed Alan's assertion that this was stinky.

He smelled a fish because she didn't have a wedding dress. They had been engaged for a while. They had a one-year-old daughter together. They did not live together. I thought that was a little odd that they didn't want to get married and live together. But not every girl grows up dreaming of Prince Charming, all right, rescuing her. Some of us grow up thinking about riding horses and traveling across the world in an RV and writing books. And how did

they invent the telephone? I don't get it. Things like that. All right. When a lot of girls were imagining Prince Charming, I was running through red dirt playing in a creek. Okay. So not everybody thinks along those lines. So that did not bother me at all. But now the specter of a girlfriend is raising its ugly head. Ellen, what do you know, if anything? Nothing is confirmed. But, Nancy, I can tell you that there are a lot of rumors and speculation that are flying around. And some of it is coming from sources that we think probably have some connection to the investigation. There is a lot of speculation.

None of it has been confirmed by law enforcement and none of it has been confirmed yet by any of the local news agencies that are out there covering this case. I can tell you, though, that they are looking at it. There is I would not be surprised if it comes out that there was another person in Patrick's life. Okay, so I was waiting for you to get to that moment because Alan Duke joined me in L.A. I couldn't figure out if she was trying to say Kelsey had a boyfriend on the side or Patrick Frazee had a girlfriend. And I'm certainly putting that euphemistically on the side. But she finally got to it right there in the last couple of words, a girlfriend on Frazee's part. What do you know if anything, Alan? Well, I'm getting the same kind of rumblings from people who know law enforcement

sources. I'm talking about former cops who are close to them. Tell me, watch, there will be another arrest that a person who was romantically involved with him has been interrogated and is cooperating with police. And so they say, just stand by. Not sure when it's going to happen, of course, because of the holiday week, but they say, watch for it. Okay. I want to ask Karen Starr of The Obvious, what is wrong with men? But you know what? I'm going to go for a lay opinion. And I very rarely refer to Ashley Wilcott as a lay person. She's a judge and she's a lawyer. But Ashley, really? He's not even married. Just break up for Pete's sake. Just break up. You don't even have to get a divorce. You don't even have to undo the I do. You just break up and work out custody. So why? Listen, granted, I'm a judge and I hear these kinds of cases all the time.

Nancy, I'm so tired of it. Why? Why is the question? If we could answer that, we could prevent this from happening. And that's never going to happen. I don't get it. I don't know. But I'm so tired of there's another woman.

I'm seeing this other woman and I'm going to kill my fiance or my girlfriend. I'm with you. Break up. You have a child together. Raise that child as fit parents instead of committing murder. So straight out to Karen Stark, I agree with Ashley. Could you help me, Karen? I keep saying that to you and you keep saying things that are sound really smart, but it's just not getting through. These two weren't even married. If there's a love interest on his part, why not just break up for Pete's sake? They don't even have to go see a lawyer. You know, I know it's so hard to believe. And I want to say this to you, Nancy, and to Ashley, because it comes up over and over again and people are saying it again now

that it just doesn't make sense. Why not go the easy route? But if you're somebody who has the kind of mind where you think that death means nothing, that it's just easier to get rid of a person than to have to fess up and say what's really happening in your life, you are not going to take that route of confronting the person. You're going to do something complicated to make sure you never have to deal with them again. Raise your child. And for some reason, they are able to envision the fact that they would get away with this, although they never, almost never get away with it, especially if you hire someone to assist you. Yet, it keeps going on.

You know, that's one of the favorite things I love to say to defense lawyers when they come up with zany defense theories. And that is, okay, let's follow your assertion. Let's just follow it through that you say, let's just pick the Stephen Avery making a murder case. That police framed Stephen Avery. That would mean that police had to murder Teresa Hall back themselves, burn her body, and plant her car. So in order to just follow through, police framed him. Follow it through.

What's going to happen? What does that mean that they committed the murder themselves? In this case, that's an example. In this case, let's follow through the assertion there is a lover. So what they thought they'd kill her and then what? Nobody would notice. Right now the search is on. No longer for Kelsey Barrett, but for Kelsey Barrett's body. Where do you think her body is at what stage? Part of what we're dealing with is how fluid this investigation is.

I tried to do a press conference last night, but things have been changing hourly. At this point, I don't want to speculate where her body is at this point. Patrick's mother, I'm sure. Have you already had that information? I don't want to speculate where her body is at this point. Investigators have recovered a number of items that make us suspicious that the crime did occur at Kelsey's residence, and that's why we have been coming back to her residence as we get additional information that leads us to various locations. Online, thousands are following a Facebook page dedicated to the search

that's regularly posting pictures and updates on her case. Her brother traveled to Colorado to help find her posting. After arriving at Kelsey's house and combing through her things, we know one thing is certain. Kelsey did not pack to go anywhere. All luggage is here. Her purse is all that seems to have gone. I always considered him to be a gentle soul, soft-spoken and just really down-to-earth and practical. Sonia Oliver says she has known Frazee, a rancher, for five years. Do you think he possibly had anything to do with his fiance's disappearance? I couldn't imagine him doing anything that would harm anyone.

You personally do not believe he had anything to do with it? I just can't imagine Patrick doing anything like that. She was a farm kid. She drove a swather for her dad. She worked the hay farm. She'd watch the crop dusters take off, and she says, I want to do that. Kelsey Barrett's uncle says his niece discovered both growing up in rural Washington state. I think she had a point in her life she didn't know if she wanted to be a farmer or a pilot. I mean, she wanted both.

The search is on for the body of missing mom, flight instructor Kelsey Barrett, but this is what we know. Her fiance, who has been referred to as a gentle giant, has been charged with not only murder, but solicitation, which means he asked someone to help him commit murder. But there's no body. You know, plainly speaking, you know, you can prove a murder without a body. I remember a case where a preschool teacher was followed as she jogged in Atlanta. She tried to pretend she was going up to somebody's house like it was her own, but the perps saw through that. Months went by before the case was solved.

She was killed. And then way on, her glass eyeball, nobody even knew she had one, was found, and that started the murder investigation. Her full body was never found. And that was a successful prosecution. But generally speaking, wouldn't you agree, Ashley Wilcott, that it's a lot tougher to make a murder case without a body? It is absolutely tougher. But I am going to say this. With today's technology and today's desire to prosecute and convict those who have committed crimes, we've seen it all. We've seen them try it without a body.

It's possible much harder. To E.K., Ellen Kaloran, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, I have been speculating that her body may be where her cell phone pinged almost 800 miles away from home. This is three days after she was last seen alive on Safeway grocery store surveillance video with her daughter. I'd like to know, did his cell phone ping in the same spot? Did his cell phone track along the route from Colorado to that spot? But right now, I'm wondering if her cell phone is with her body, EK. Well, Nancy, it sounds like your prediction may have been accurate. We don't know exactly what possible evidence has been found in Idaho,

but we know that it's something that authorities are taking very, very seriously. We're just learning this in the last few hours that Twin Falls police have joined the investigation, but we know that authorities in Colorado asked for their cooperation a week ago. So this is something that they've been looking at for a long time. We know that they don't have a body in Kelsey Barrett's home. We know that they don't have a body on Patrick Frazee's 35-acre property in Florissant. Is there a body in Idaho? Is her phone there? We don't know exactly what is there yet, but it sure sounds like something is. E.K., do you know whether or not he, Patrick Frazee, had life insurance on Kelsey Barrett?

Because one facet of the Chris Watts case that was little discussed was he had, as I recall, about $90,000 worth of insurance on her. So her death or disappearance would have benefited him financially. And we've been told that Patrick Frazee was having many problems. I have not seen or heard anything about a life insurance policy taken out on Kelsey Barron. Me either. Me either. Okay. To Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host.

Dave Mack, what are you learning from your sources regarding the location of Kelsey's body? I'm exactly what you are. I've actually talked to some friends out in Twin Falls, Idaho, to see what's happening out there. And I think you're dead on right. Wherever her phone is, that's where her body is. But again, you go back to the investigation into her townhome. The police, you mentioned blood spatter earlier. The only way they could determine that Kelsey was no longer with us is by blood evidence that they found inside the townhome. We all know

you can clean it up on top, but you drop luminol in there and all of a sudden it lights up. So no body, they only could have found body fluid of blood in her townhome to the degree that led them to believe she's no longer with us right now the investigation goes on our prayers to kelsey's family and especially for her little girl it now appears she will all alone without her mommy nancy gray's crime story signing off goodbye friend this is an iheart podcast