Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - New police chief re-opens '3 Billboards' murder case

Episode Date: July 19, 2018

After Kathy Page was raped and murdered in 1991, her father erected billboards along Interstate 10 near the Texas town of Vidor that accused the local police of corruption and botching the death probe. What James Fulton did in search for justice for his 34-year-old daughter inspired the Oscar-winning movie "Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri." There is renewed effort to find Page's killer with a new police chief re-opening the cold case and increasing the reward. Nancy Grace explores the case with forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, lawyer Troy Slaten, psychologist and lawyer Dr. Brian Russell, and Crime Stories contributing reporter Cheryl White. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Did you know a recent law can leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If you've turned on the news lately, you know the internet has created a dangerous new world. It's time you take back the power by using a new website called Truthfinder. Have you been issued a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Did you forget about an embarrassing social media profile? That info may already be online. Truthfinder can help you find it. Truthfinder searches millions of public records, assembling

the data together in one report. Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up those close to you and make sure they're not hiding something. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. When I saw the award-winning movie Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, I was just floored. I was floored not only by the acting of Frances McDormand, but just the fact that I knew it was based on a true story. The movie was about this mother that fought the local law enforcement, that fought the community, that fought her neighbors

in her effort to find who had brutally set her daughter on fire, killing her daughter during a rape. It is so difficult. And in my mind as I was watching it, I was thinking about a young woman whose father I felt that I got to know after his daughter had been set on fire and killed. The whole time I was watching the movie, I knew it was based on a true story. And right now, we hear the true story. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

The true and as of yet unsolved murder of a beautiful woman, Kathy Page. The inspiration to the Academy Award winning movie, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Joining me right now, Dr. Brian Russell, Troy Slayton, Joseph Scott Morgan, and Cheryl White. Cheryl, tell me about the real-life story of Kathy Page and her murder. Well, Kathy Page was 34 years old. She had two young children under the age of 10. And she was found beaten, raped and strangled in her car, which had been staged to look like an accident, but it was not. We are focusing on the murder of Kathy Page, the real-life inspiration behind the blockbuster movie Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri.

Back to you, Cheryl White. So you're saying you have no doubt in your mind Kathy's murder was staged. Why do you say that? Well, the police on the scene said that the car and the body were put together later, that she did not die in that car. They also go as far as to say that she was clothed after her death. Wow. This mother of two, absolutely beautiful woman, Kathy Page, had been beaten,

raped, and strangled when her body was found in her car near her home. Now, police say somebody had parked her car in a ditch to make it look like a crash. And that's pretty easy to determine that much. Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, forensics expert and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott Morgan, I mean, it should be pretty easy to tell if a car crashed into a ditch or if it was driven in there gently. Yeah, yeah, it would be. Nancy, if you had if there was a direct impact into the ditch, there would be significant damage. There'd be dirt buried onto the bumper and onto the sidewalls, the tires, everything, as opposed to somebody just kind of easing it down into a depressed area.

And this is what we refer to as staging. Kathy's death in Vider became famous and infamous after her father started putting up billboards on his property along the highway accusing local police of failing to investigate her murder. Another thing that we know, in the car there were soft drinks in the front seat that hadn't spilled. That's a tip-off to me, Troy Slayton. You're the veteran defense attorney joining me out of L.A. I mean, the car's eased into a ditch, and the soft drinks hadn't even spilled. All of that information is fertile grounds for a defense when they actually find a suspect. But right now, there's no one

even charged with the crime. Well, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. To me, all those circumstances will direct me to who the killer is. I'm taking a look at all of the signs this grieving father, Kathy's father, placed along the side of the road. It says, Viter Police botched the case, waiting for a confession. This could happen to you. And these are handmade signs the father posted. I just can't even imagine the grief this father was going through. His daughter, the mother of two, raped, beaten dead, left in a ditch in a car. It does sound fake to me, Dr. Brian Russell. Dr. Brian Russell, psychologist and lawyer and host of Investigation Discovery's Fatal Vow series. Dr.

Russell, before you answer that, take a listen to this. Fulton's surviving daughter, Sherry, is speaking exclusively to Daily Mail TV. I'm just glad that Dad had the inspiration to put the signs up, and I'm ready to put up some more, if that's what it takes. To Dr.

Brian Russell, psychologist and lawyer, host of Investigation Discoveries, blockbuster hit Fatal Vows. Dr. Brian, what the father is going through when he sees his daughter has been raped, murdered, his granddaughters are being raised without a mom. And he feels he can't get any answers. And he's got to, he's reduced to putting up these handmade signs on the side of the road. Can you imagine his pain, Dr. Bryan? Absolutely. We talk about, well, I say absolutely. I don't know that any of us can really know what it's like to be him, but I can imagine he is like many of the victims' family members that we discuss on this show in that he has had to endure just the horrific loss of one of the closest people in the world to him, his daughter.

On top of that, how he's different from many of the victims' family members that we discuss on this show is that in most of their cases, it seems like the society in the form of law enforcement, the prosecutor in the area, at least does its best to come through for the person. And in this case, not only does he feel the loss of the daughter in the most horrifying of ways, but on top of that, he feels that the society has sort of abandoned him, that the society is not really seeming to care that much about getting justice for her. And so on top of all of the grief that he is feeling, he feels like he has to sort of personally crusade for justice for her. The billboards that the father handmade and placed along the road there in Vider graduated. They graduated to big industrial-sized signs, professionally done.

One says, this is Orange County, city of Vider. Here, you get by with brutally murdering a woman, and it's in red and yellow. There is another sign. Oh, the signs all graduated and they become bigger and bigger and bigger. Now, we're all familiar with three billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri that won the Academy Award. This is the case on which that was based. As a matter of fact, take a listen to this. What's wrong with what you can and cannot say on a billboard? I assume you can't say nothing defamatory, and you can't say f***, piss, or c***.

Is that right? Or anus? I think I'll be all right then. I guess you're Angela Hayes' mother. That's right. I'm Angela Hayes' mother. So, Mildred Hayes, why did you put up these billboards? My daughter Angela was murdered seven months ago.

It seems to me the police department is too busy torturing black folks to solve actual crime. What the hell is this? Dixon, I'm in the middle of my... ...dinner. Sorry, kids. What the hell is this? Dixon, I'm in the middle of my ****** Easter dinner. Sorry, kids. I know, Chief, but I think we got kind of a problem. I'd do anything to catch your daughter's killer. I don't think those billboards is very fair.

The time it took you to get out here whining like a ***, Willoughby. Some other poor girl's probably out there being butchered right now. We've had two official complaints about those billboards from who the lady with a funny eye a lady with a funny eye and a fat dentist there's a lot of good friends of willoughby in this town this hate you didn't happen to drill a little hole in the dentist today did you of course not huh i said of course not i'm sorry about angie but the town is dead set against these billboards and through that can what can how about you sweetheart uh no i didn't really go good hey what don't say what dixon when she comes in calling you a f***head. The more you keep a case in the public eye, the better your chances are of getting it solved.

You know, if you hadn't stopped coming to church, you'd have a little bit more understanding of people's feelings. That was sound from the Academy Award winning movie, Three Billboards Outside Edding, Missouri. And that the movie was incredible and awful and wonderful at the same time and based on a true story. And that is a true story we are investigating today. So Cheryl White, the other facts surrounding her murder, you mentioned that it appeared she had been clothed after her murder. Why is that? Why do you say that, Cheryl? There were images or blood stains on the inside of the clothing that made it appear that the clothing had been put on after she had been killed. To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, that reminds me of a case I prosecuted where a woman was found shot in the head, suicide, naked in bed. Okay, so you and I both know that statistically

women never shoot themselves in the head or face when committing suicide in fact some of them dress up to commit suicide um they never commit suicide naked that alerted me at the get-go but then I found blood spatter spatter under the pillow on which she was laying okay you see what's wrong with that right the blood could not possibly have spattered from the gunshot wound under the pillow on which she was laying that's impossible right so that blood spatter meant something. Explain to me why what Cheryl White said about Kathy Page's bloodstains is so significant. Well, it is, Nancy, and this goes to how effectively the police are actually paying attention in the fine details in this particular case. This is something that we refer to as redressing of a body

when you're staging a crime. And certain things have their place in the timeline. And if you have blood that has wound up beneath a surface, for instance, like you were stating with a pillow, or in this case, oriented in the clothing, it doesn't match up with the physical evidence that you're finding at the scene. It doesn't marry up. So that's one of the things that's going to cause the police to look at this and scratch their head and say, you know what, this is just not right. It was early dawn on May 14. Police in Vidor, Texas, found a car wreck on the side of the road.

The woman behind the wheel was dead, but when they touched her, her skin was cool. That is significant. Her skin was cool. That tells the police, in a way, generally speaking, how long she had been there based on the temperature around her. Now, it looked like a crash, but then all of a sudden, it got very, very confusing. She had no obvious wounds. How could she die of a car crash and there's no obvious wound? The soft drinks of the front seat were not even spilled.

Her feet were pushed back against the seat. Rather than stretched out toward the brake and the gas. She was not wearing a seat belt. But the crash seemingly did not force her forward or make her hit her head on the steering wheel. Any good police officer could see that. There was no damage on the inside of the vehicle, damage to the exterior, the deepness of the ditch. It was very clear to them it had all been staged, leading to a lot of questions. It was 34-year-old Kathy Page, the mother of two, and she only lived about 100 yards from the crash site. Police immediately go to her home.

Her husband Steve answers the door. He answers the door and as soon as Detective Sergeant Mosley begins speaking to him. He answers that his wife wasn't home. And he looked straight down the street toward where the car was. He seemed to be upset. And he started crying. He threw himself on the couch crying, but then he would jump up while we were talking and there would be no tears. Troy Slayton, LA veteran defense lawyer. Something stinks. There's a brand new website causing a lot of trouble for people with something to hide. Have you ever had a bad feeling about somebody? Maybe suspected your partner's

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Everybody you know has something to hide. Now you can root out the most dangerous people before you become the next victim. It's not just used to bust bad people. Truthfinder helps Americans reunite with friends, family, even people who served with them in the military. It's never been so easy to find the truth. Go to truthfinder.com slash Nancy and enter any name to get started. still no rest how come i wonder because there ain't no god and the whole world's empty and it doesn't matter what we do to each other i hope not i don't know what the police are doing i hadn't heard a word from them in seven months i'll tell you this i've heard an awful lot from them since i put them billboards up that was from from the movie Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, an incredible movie about a young girl, a daughter,

that was brutally sex assaulted and murdered by fire at the time of the sex assault. Her mother insisted local police did not do enough to catch the killer and took billboards out along the side of the road, very visible billboards. I remember at the end of that movie, I could hardly speak, imagining what the mother went through. It's based on a true story, the story of the murder of Kathy Page, as of today, unsolved. Why?

Troy Slayton, L.A. defense attorney. The guy was fake crying, the husband? There is no specific way that somebody acts when they find out that something horribly tragic has happened, like the death of their wife. So maybe he just didn't grieve the way that you would expect someone to grieve. He was crying. He threw himself on the couch. That may have been legitimate. It may not have been. We just don't know. Yeah, we don't know, but I can tell you this much. If I saw my husband's car wrecked, I would not throw myself on the sofa and cry in my house

robe. I'd get my rear end out the front porch and run to that car to see if I could save him, to find out where he was find out what happened I would not be laying on the sofa fake crying now that's according to the police that's what you would do Nancy but that's not what somebody else may have done okay and he also says he was not fake crying but this is what he does say. Listen to Kathy's husband, Steve Page. Mainly, she was uncomfortable with who she was, or at least that was what she explained to me, that she didn't know who she was. She wanted to try to find out who Kathy was. Because of that, we talked about separating for a short period of time and allowing her to hopefully find herself.

She said she was going to meet one of her girlfriends after work. And so I went over there. She left at approximately 11.15 to 11.30 to head to Beaumont to meet her friend, Charlotte, was the friend's name she was getting ready she just got out of the shower I approached her about sex and we had sex before she left before she got dressed even the reason it comes down on me is because I'm the husband I'm the estranged husband to make it even worse and because of her actions I am being blamed for her actions.

She was out seeing another guy. So therefore, it could only have been me. I must have found out somehow how, according to the police, and became enraged and committed murder. I received threats on the phone that the same thing that happened to my wife could happen to me. There was a name of a certain person here in Beaumont that was bandied about as the person who may have been involved. It's a very prominent family, an Italian family even, to let you know that they're considered part of the Beaumont Mafia.

Uh-oh, uh-oh. You know what's interesting? To Dr. Brian Russell, psychologist and lawyer and host of I.D.'s Fatal Vow series, Dr. Brian, why is it always the dead victim's fault? It's always her fault. Have you noticed that? She was the one leaving, going somewhere that night. She was the one, he says, night she was the one he says finding herself

he even says why are they blaming me it's her fault yeah it's interesting because in a way he sort of uh he sort of lays out the case for why uh he would be the prime suspect and he does it pretty accurately and as he does it uh i almost found myself thinking, well, OK, if I'm him and I'm actually innocent when I notice that in amongst the things he's saying, well, I'm, you know, I'm the husband. And so they're going to look at me and we're estranged and they're going to look at me even more and all this. And she was seeing another guy and they're going to think that I found out and I got enraged. Okay. But then as he tells all that, he throws in these little bits of, OK, but here's the name of the friend that she was supposed to go meet. OK, well, it's almost like, why are you why do we need that detail? It's almost like, you know, I'm going to show you that this is really true.

She told me she's going to meet a friend because I'm even going to give you the name. And then I'm going to give you another possibility of a suspect. And not only that, but then I'm going to tell you that he's not just another guy. He's a mafia guy that the cops don't want to maybe go after. It's just like there's a little too much detail, and it's all directed at diverting attention and suspicion from him. It's a bit too much for me. Well, I can tell you right now that this was not a random killing because the scene was staged.

Back to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert. We know this. She was not killed in her vehicle. She was killed in another location, cleaned up, redressed, put killed in her vehicle she was killed in another location cleaned out redressed put back in the vehicle and after the vehicle was rolled down into the ditch to look like a crash we find out that her body reveals she was not wearing makeup or jewelry which is not like her the autopsy showed she was strangled and her nose had been broken. Important, there were bloodstains on her underwear and her skin,

but no blood on her outer clothing. No way was this random because random killers strike and leave as fast as they can. They don't take time to bring the car 100 yards from where her husband is and ease it down into a ditch, I would not think. Now, Joe Scott Morgan, before you answer that, take a listen to what her sister, Kathy's sister, says. Kathy was definitely moving on in her life at that point because the decision was made for the divorce and that in itself having a decision like that finally be resolved in itself was a real relief off her back and she was making plans for that i personally don't believe that that happened she wouldn't have

been with steve before being with another man she hadn't been with steve in a long time. He was already sleeping on the couch. Him coming over to take care of the kids was more of a kindness gesture for him to be around his kids, not for him to be around Kathy. I was talking to a sister-in-law of Steve's, and she said that she knew for a fact that Steve made two phone calls. Steve called this one number and the girl answered and he hung up. And then the second phone number was called and they said the name of the hotel and he hung up. And so he already knew where she might be or was. Wow. That's completely opposite what he says, that she was just trying to find herself and they were going to separate

briefly and get back together you know joseph scott morgan you know you guys you really let your penis get you into a lot of trouble and i'll tell you why kathy did have sex the night that she died but the autopsy report includes a very very critical clue the man she was with the night that she died had had a vasectomy okay yes listeners they can tell that the boyfriend she was dating had not had a vasectomy that means the person she was with that night, the night she died, was with somebody else. Let me just put it out there. The husband, Steve Page, had a vasectomy several months earlier. Now, that's when, when police confront him with this,

that's when he comes up with the sex story. Why, Joe Scott Morgan, would she agree to consensual sex when she's going that night to meet her boyfriend? They're already planning the divorce. This is not just a separation. He only comes over to babysit. And, important, there was blood in her underwear. Sounds like a forcible rape. Yeah, it does, Nancy. Going back to what Brian said, this guy is kind of, you know, all along this continuum, he's talking about these things. He's raising these

possibilities. And wasn't it interesting in that statement that he said that she agreed to have sex with him prior to this. Now, I don't know what world he lives in, but most people that are estranged, you know, they're not going to agree to consensual sex, particularly if they're already involved in an intimate relationship. And let's talk about the nature of these injuries she had. Nancy, she was strangled, all right? That's what the autopsy is saying. This is something that we see in cases involving intimates. Strangling is not something obviously, stating the obvious here, that happens at a distance. This is up close and personal. Many times, many times, this is associated with sexual attacks.

You've got close proximity to the individual's neck. You can wrap your hands around it. It's an issue of trying to control these people and dominate them. Sex just comes in as kind of an afterthought at this point, but he's left physical evidence behind. Another thing is, I don't know if folks at home know this, we hear about things like blunt force trauma, right, in cases involving homicide. You know what the number one thing in the United States that creates blunt force trauma is? Motor vehicle accidents. If she, in fact, had been involved in a high-speed impact case, There would be blood everywhere. We talked about blood underneath the clothing. This gives us an idea that she was redressed. She'd have

blood. There'd be gashes on her forehead. She'd have obvious bruising all over her. That's what kind of gives you pause and makes you scratch your head. There's a myriad of physical evidence here, Nancy, that goes to kind of, uh, uh, you know, for what he's trying, the narrative that he's trying to put forward. You know what? He's right. Uh, to Cheryl White, Crime Stories investigative reporter, Cheryl, what, what more do we know about the investigation? Because her father, her father, who was James Fulton, says that police did not investigate the case thoroughly and that there is a murderer there and they refused to make an arrest. The father does do that and he is adamant that he will continue to demand that justice for his daughter be carried out.

The DNA problem raises its head. So they found that she'd had sex, no sperm, so that was a vasectomy, as you said. So is there anything there that police can use to track it down? There was a mention that he didn't want the husband, did not want the police to examine the home. Now, one reason for that, he said that she had cut her leg shaving and that they might find the blood on the floor and the carpet and therefore believe that he had something to do with her death. Uh-oh. In the words of Shakespeare, Troy Slayton, methinks thou doth protest too much. Troy Slayton, joining me, high-profile lawyer out of LA. Here's

the guy saying he doesn't want them to search the home, but if they did, they might find her blood on the carpet from shaving. Man, that must have been some razor cut. That didn't come from a bit, Troy. Oh my goodness, Nancy. You mean somebody wouldn't want government agents, police searching all over your home? I mean, that's nothing to be shocked about. And if the police thought that they even had a reasonable suspicion or probable cause some of the lowest burden known to the law, they could easily go to a judge and swear out a search warrant. Yeah, but in that time, isn't it true, Joe Scott Morgan? All we need is for the perp, whoever that may be,

to pour a little muriatic acid on there and get rid of it. I mean, plain old cleanser or bleach isn't going to kill DNA, but muriatic acid certainly would like you know black swan maybe long story short joe scott morgan uh-uh no if he wanted to help police catch the killer why not i mean i always compare it to mark class when his daughter polly went missing he's like sure here run through my place take whatever you, hey, while you're here, take my fingerprints. Take my blood. Take my saliva. Give me a polygraph so you can move on quickly to finding who took and murdered my daughter, Polly. Okay?

That's what I expect from the family of crime victims, Joe Scott. Yeah. Yeah, I do too, Nancy. And also, this guy is a father. Keep that in mind. If he wants, you know, if he, if he wants closure, if he wants his kids to be okay, if he wants to demonstrate to his children that the future is going to be okay, we're going to find out who did this to our mama, then why not give this stuff up? Why not give these physical samples up? And so it gives you pause to scratch your head. And yeah, Troy will

argue that he's going to, you know, he could be violated by the government. It could be utilized against him and all this sort of thing. But conversely, it could be used to exonerate him as well. So, you know, it's two sides. It's a two-sided coin here. So it's a dangerous path that he's gone down guys we're talking about the real life inspiration that uh ultimately ended up as being an academy award-winning movie three billboards outside ebbing missouri that movie talked about the brutal rape and burning death of a young teen girl and her mother fighting local law enforcement including witty harrelson who was also awesome uh fighting him looking for answers at the end of the movie

you still didn't have the killer sorry about the spoiler alert but the investigation went on it's about the struggle of a mother trying to find her daughter's killer. And she's not just looking for the killer. She's doing battle with local police as well. And that's just what's happening here in the real-life story of Kathy Page. Her father is still trying to get justice over Kathy's murder. Now, it means a lot to me what a murder victim's family thinks. I want you to listen to Kathy's father. Her dad, James Fulton, listened. I feel like she came in that night and come in the back door after she'd unparked the car and he was asleep sitting in the chair in

the front room. And when she went on in the bathroom and changed clothes, took her makeup off, took her jewelry and all off, and he heard it probably in the bathroom. And he got up and demanded sex with her or whatever, got in a fight. Then Steve, realizing what had happened, he wants to redress her. If you look at the violent crime profile, it fits into a T, you know, the remorse, you want to redress, you don't want them to be found naked or bloody. So there was an attempt to clean her up and redress her. But things were forgotten. For instance, her jewelry and her socks.

You are hearing sound from unsolved mystery Kathy Page. You know what? That detail I didn't know. Cheryl White, Crime Stories investigative reporter. So she's missing not only makeup and jewelry, but she says she's going out. But her socks as well. This is in February. She didn't have on any socks, Cheryl.

And I'll tell you what else. They found a blade of grass on the back of her jeans, further cementing the theory that her body was not in the car at the time of death. It was dragged. That's a huge clue. This case, the real life inspiration to the Academy Award winning movie, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Listen to this. Kathy Page was not killed in her vehicle. She was killed at another location, cleaned up, redressed and placed back in her vehicle. And after the vehicle had been rolled into the ditch. I'd do anything to catch the guy who did it, Mrs. Hayes, but when the DNA don't match no one who's

ever been arrested and when the DNA don't match any other crime nationwide and when there wasn't a single eyewitness from the time she left your house to the time we found her, well, right now there ain't too much more we can do. Could pull blood from every man and boy in this town over the age of eight. Their civil rights laws prevents that, Mrs. Hayes. And what if he was just passing through town? Pull blood from every man in the country, then.

Then what if he was just passing through the country? If it was me, I'd start up a database. Every male baby that's born, stick them on it. And as soon as he's done something wrong, cross-reference it, make 100% certain it was a correct match, then kill him. Yeah, well, there's... Definitely civil rights laws prevents that.

I'm doing everything I can to track him down. I don't think those billboards is very fair. The time it took you to get out here whining like a bitch, Willoughby, some other poor girls probably out there being butchered right now, but I'm glad you got your priorities straight. I'll say that for you. Guys, you just heard a clip from Francis McDormand in the movie three billboards outside Ebbing Missouri where at one point they thought they had found her daughter's killer and they ran his DNA it wasn't him and the disappointment that the mom suffered it was like a mortal blow. That's how I feel James Fulton, Kathy Page's father, must feel right now. Still no arrest in the murder of his daughter, Kathy. That's something I don't understand to, for instance, expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

If they have semen, well, you know what? Never mind, I answered in my own mind. They've got semen from Kathy Page, but the husband says it was consensual sex. We know she met her boyfriend that night. I highly doubt that. I mean, in my mind, especially in light of blood in her underwear, that's enough forensic evidence to go forward with a criminal case, Joe Scott. I would think so, Nancy, but let's keep in mind that this fellow also had a vasectomy,

as you mentioned earlier. To do the extraction for DNA, you have to have sperm, and at this point, this guy doesn't have any sperm, so it has to be extracted literally from the head of the sperm. So when there is ejaculate, it is non-cellular. It's a non-cellular suspension, so you're not going to have DNA in there. And the blood, and we don't know who the blood is from, do we, at this point in time? And you have to be able to match these things up.

If he's bathed her, for instance, he could have disrupted any kind of physical evidence that was there. So, you know, you kind of leave your head scratching here. You know, he's in physical contact with her. He's in her presence. So even if there's contact DNA in this environment, it can easily be explained by the defense. Well, the blood we know came from her. I don't think she would have been bathed because there was still blood, some blood on her body under her clothes and in her underwear. So I don't think she would have been bathed. I think that one of the things that we have to consider, I'd be very interested to see the

results on the rape kit that they conducted and also the examination. And I'm going to get a little bit graphic here, but the vaginal examination that they would have done on her at autopsy and what you would be looking for is in the vaginal opening, you'd be looking for trauma, external trauma, and also dilation of the vaginal opening that indicates that maybe this was in fact forced sex. Now, that's not necessarily going to be a tieback, but it does demonstrate that she was involved in potentially violent sex. And if she's involved with a boyfriend, you wouldn't suspect that, okay? But it would go, it would kind of put the investigators on the track of somebody else that would have had to have forced her to have had sex. Wait a minute. What about this? I know that, i'm going back to your assertion that if you've had a

vasectomy you don't leave behind dna now true you know if you look at that on its face you cannot get dna from the semen of a vasectomized male that's true agree with you. Not from the semen, but what about this? What about, uh, epithelial cells, epithelial cells, which is like a wet skin cell. Um, let me think how to say this. Your body makes cells to line and protect parts of your body, like the mouth, the vagina, the lining, the urethral lining of the penis. Yes. Those cells come from a layer like shingles on a roof. Yep.

Right? Yes, ma'am. Okay. So they don't have a nuclei like sperm would or the root of a hair, but you've got the other, the wet skin cells. I'm wondering, Joe Scott Morgan, if we used a more advanced type of DNA testing on those wet epithelial cells. Right. That we would get not a nucleus but another type of wait wait this is irrelevant he's already said he had sex with her doesn't matter we know that that is from him so

all of our dna discussion is moot he's already said so we just don't know was it rape or was it consensual what about the fact uh to troy Slayton that the wreck is 100 yards from the home? Sure, that doesn't look good. But even if he had sex with her, even if it was rough sex, that doesn't mean that he was the one that killed her. And, you know, just just stop, Troy. You know what? Dressed the body and placed her and you know just just stop troy you know what dressed the body and placed her in the ditch dr brian russell no offense and i'm not a man hater dr brian russell contrary to what many people think brian russell hosted fatal vows on investigation discovery why is it it's always men who talk about how women want rough sex i've never heard a single

woman talk about how she wants rough sex and they've never heard a single woman talk about how she wants rough sex. And they only talk about it when the woman ends up dead. Like in The Preppy Killer, it's always, oh, she wanted rough sex. Whoopsie, she's dead. Why is that, Dr. Brian Russell? Every woman that's listening to this right now is just shaking her head no. know. Well, I think it's in a way it's it's the only way to explain how you could get some of the same, you know, physical indicators of rape without there having been a rape with, you know, from some kind of consensual activity. It's sort of the only way to try to explain it away.

Long story short, there is still a single sign remaining calling for justice, claiming that local police took some sort of a bribe not to solve the case. Now, to me, at first glance, that sounds outlandish. But why is it? Why is it this case has never been solved? I mean, to me, it sounds like there's the makings of a circumstantial case. So what's happening now in the case, Cheryl White? And what is going on right now is that they continue to look at the evidence. They have reopened this cold case. They've doubled the reward money to $6,000.

So they have reopened this case, and they are now searching for evidence that will lead them to the killer. The murder of Kathy Page, as of now, remains unsolved. There is no official suspect in the case. Her husband, her ex-husband, still declares his innocence. Take a listen to the local police chief. Read through the entire case file because of the billboard. I'll be honest with you, that pushed it forward in my mind coming into this community. I believe that Kathy Page, you know, she deserves justice. I think the Page family deserves justice.

I think somebody here in Southeast Texas knows the answers. I think that they just, they need to get right and have a conscience and come forward. Right now, we remember Corporal Mujahid Ramziddin, a 14-year vet, Prince George County Police Department, Maryland, also awarded the Medal of Valor 2006. Retired Marine, previously assigned to PGPD's Special Ops Division Harbor Unit. Graduating Central Texas College with a degree in criminal justice and political science, leaves behind a grieving widow, four children. He was his mother's only son. Corporal Mujahid Ramziddin, American hero. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. There's a brand new website causing a lot of trouble for people with something to hide.

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