Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - NEW REPORT, KOHBERGER WHINING BEHIND BARS, PLOTTING APPEAL?

Episode Date: August 6, 2025

Secret documents, including never-before-seen photos of Kohberger's victims, may be made public in the near future. The process for unsealing the records is a lengthy process and Kohberger's lawyers and the prosecutors will have two weeks to argue whether the items should be released or kept sealed. There are 43 items in the first batch including photos of each of the deceased victims and a photograph of the six victims together. It is not clear if the pictures were taken before the attacks or after their deaths.   The release of documents will not be random as the judge says he is reviewing items for unsealing by taking the newest ones first and working backwards. Many documents on the first list are motions about what evidence jurors could be shown at trial including what witnesses should testify and whether Kohberger could put forth his alternate suspect defense. Other records pertain to whether items should be kept confidential or are rulings on what would be sealed.  The process is expected to take months as each batch must be reviewed before release One of the remaining mysteries is why didn't Kaylee's dog sound an alarm. According to reports,  Murphy started acting strangely in the months leading up to Kaylee's murder. Surviving roommate Bethany Funke and Kaylee's ex-boyfriend told similar stories to police about  Kaylee seeing a shadowy figure behind the house when she walked Murphy. Murphy started running away from home and would run to the bushes behind the house and  not return when called. Some speculate that Kohberger was secretly befriending Murphy so he would not bark when he entered the home.  Joining Nancy Grace today Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker,”  featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive  Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective,  Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough  Sheryl McCollum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Host: Zone 7, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips  Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), NEW Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue" launching soon, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University) Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi", IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. New reports. Brian Coburger whining behind bars already. As he plots his appeal, yes, plotting his appeal. Now, remember, the whole reason the death penalty was taken off the table is so he wouldn't appeal. He's appealing.

This, as Coburger's mommy issues and obsessive hand washing, comes to light, according to fellow inmates. Antonite, does evidence indicate Coburger had actually been skulking inside the student's home before the night of the murders? How did he get in there? And we're learning, did he actually befriend the pet dog? Does this explain why the dog didn't bark and raise an alarm that night? I'm Missy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

Some of these might be familiar. So sit up straight when I talk to you. How was your life right before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were thinking and feeling at this time. Why did you choose my sisters? Before leaving their home, is there anything else you did? how does it feel to know the only thing you failed more miserably at than being a murderer

is trying to be a rapper? Tonight, all H.E. double L breaking loose as we learn Brian Koeberger is plotting an appeal and lying in weight. Lying in weight is an aggravating circumstance to seek the death penalty. Number one, the death penalty was taken off the table in exchange for Coburger, not appealing. You can't waive that right. He can appeal a guilty plea on any number of grounds. So that was a lie.

But lying in wait, did he actually get into the student's home before the night of the murders? What does this mean? Why do I care? Because that shows it was premeditated. that he had planned us for a long time, actually skulking around in their home, getting the lay of the bedrooms. Listen, I think that's a legitimate point. The layout of the house is unique. It's a little bit confusing. Based on self records, Coburger had been around the home more than 20 times at night and in the early morning hours when there was no legitimate reason. During these trips, Coburger is stalking, surveilling his prey, maybe even went inside the residence before the night of the murders.

The layout of the house is unique and a little confusing. Important to note, Coburger was able to get in and out of the house in the dark without any problems. We certainly believe that those trips were involved, Mr. Coburger, looking and surveilling or stalking, whatever the case may be. Why is he the prosecutor telling us this now? That's from our friends at 48 hours. He should have told that to a jury while he was seeking the death penalty. With me, an All-Star panel makes sense of what we know right now. But first, I want to go straight out to Chris McDonough.

Chris McDonough, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective, has worked over 300 homicides. You can find him online on the interview room on YouTube. That's where I found him. Chris, you and I have scoured the crime scene as much as we possibly could. I want to break down what the prosecutor that dumped out of the death penalty is now. saying it would have been great in an opening statement, right? But that didn't happen. He's saying that there is evidence that Brian Koeberger went inside the murder scene,

the home before the night of the murders to get the lay of the home. Explain to our viewers and listeners how the house kind of looks like, I'm going to get Cheryl McCollum to join in in just a moment. The house looks like there may have been. add-ons like there's a front door can we see a picture of the king road address please there's a front door which kind of looks like an add-on but then if you turn it around to what we show to start with you see another add-on right there a lot of the students came in and out of that sliding glass door and it's it's jigsawed in a way it's like a pig path it's not you walk in the front door and you have an

entrance area and a living room into the right is the kitchen and to the left as the bedrooms. No, no, no. Explain why they now believe Chris McDonough that Coburger had gone in the home prior to the night of the murders. So the prosecutor in this case, Nancy Thompson, is saying that there was a belief at the time during the investigation that this house had to have some type of surveillance and or familiarity to Coburger. They're referencing, you know, the 23 times that they had the phone pings. But the layout of this house, as you have just explained, it's a three-tier level type of environment.

And if you were to hang out in the back of that house, as you and I have stood and look directly into that house, it is a direct shot into Maddie's room. and if you go down a small embankment, it's a direct shot into Dillon's room. So you had to have at some point get into that environment to know directly where to go, i.e. the third floor up into Maddie's room. Hey, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us. Hold on, Cheryl. I'm getting right to you.

But Dr. Bethany, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction author of Dealbreaker. you can see her now on Peacock and you can find her at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, sometimes at night when you get up like you hear something or you go to the bathroom or you'll let the dog out, something like that, you know your way around in the dark. You don't have to see because you know the layout. Explain how does that work? Is it muscle memory? Because that's what investigators now they're telling us, again, should have told it to a jury

when they were seeking the death penalty, that there was. so much premeditation. They believe Koeberger actually went into the King Road address and looked around, sculpted around and got the lay of the land. Nancy, it's more than muscle memory. Have you ever gotten up in the middle of the night and the night light went out and you bump into the wall by mistake? You know, all of us make mistakes, even if we lived in our house for decades. This guy was preoccupied. He probably practiced with his eyes closed. Nancy, this was a sexually motivated crime. So let's think about all of that skulking around as. foreplay. He had a rich fantasy life. He was thinking about what he was going to do. He was a he was a

crime student. He already knew that dogs are territorial and that the dog would bark. This guy practiced. That's what I'm hearing. It's more than muscle memory. It's so, so creepy and disturbing to know that they were sleeping with that man in their house. You just proved the axiom, never asked the question. You don't know the answer to. You don't know what. let the witness is going to say, you just said that him skulking around the home and stalking it up to 23 times, I believe more, was foreplay to him? I'm going to go out on a limb again and do it again. Why are you saying that's Coburger's foreplay? Well, because the MO of a serial killer is to inflict maximum damage and cruelty, shed as much blood as possible, see,

the fear in the victim's eyes because they find it sexually arousing. So what he's doing is skulking around, thinking about how he's going to kill, I think in his mind, six people, and there were only four that he was able to do before he got out of the house. But so he's already planning what to him will be a very sexually exciting event. That's why I call it foreplay. Okay, Cheryl McCollum, I'm not going to ask you about casing the scene equals foreplay. I'm going to leave that to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Cheryl McCollum is joining us. She's the founder, director of the Cold Case Research Institute.

She is a forensics expert, and she's a star of a hit podcast, Zone 7. Cheryl McCollum, can you explain why the theory, the working theory is, Koeberger was in that home before. And again, why do I care? I'm going to get Dubay tuned up on this, because it shows lying in weight, which is one of the aggravating circumstances to seek the death penalty, such as mask murder, which is more than one body. That's mass murder. Very often felony murder, such as you commit a crime in the commission of a rape. You're committing a felony, and you commit a murder, a murder

in the middle of a felony. Shooting a police officer, an elected official, killing somebody behind bars. All of those are aggravating circumstances under which you see. seek the death penalty, killing for a pecuniary or money interest, aggravating circumstance under which you can seek the death penalty. Lying in wait is a prime candidate as an ag circumstance for the DP. Okay? If he went in that home, Cheryl, that is lying in weight. Planning. Why do you believe, Cheryl, as I now do, he was in that home before the murders? There's three things that stuck out to me that weren't a deterrent for him. Number one, the dog.

He wasn't worried about that dog barking or attacking him or anything else. He wasn't worried that there was another man in that house, not a deterrent. And the third thing, a brand new car. There was a car that was brand new that wasn't there in the past. He was not deterred that there was somebody in that house he didn't know. when he entered he went straight to his target which was the third floor yeah wait a minute wait a minute Cheryl McCollum that's a really good point and I guess we all knew that but when you enunciated it it makes so much more sense you walk into this home which does not have a clear

path like I was describing earlier like in modern modern layouts why would you know to walk in and go straight up to the third floor and how to get there because from what I can tell And there's a new 3D rendition of this since they tore the house down. They had to get a 3D rendition. And it kind of takes you in and through and this would have been used at trial if the DA had the backbone to try the case.

See that? It's very circuitous. How would you know to go in and how to get straight up to the third floor unless you had been there before? And speaking of the dog, listen. Kaylee's dog, Murphy, started acting strange in the months leading up to

Kaylee's murder. Surviving roommate Bethany Funk and Kaylee's ex-boyfriend told similar stories to police about Kaylee seeing a shadowy figure behind the house when she walked Murphy. Murphy started running away from home and acting strange. Murphy ran up to the bushes behind the house and would not return when called. Some speculate, Coburger was secretly befriending Murphy so he would not bark when he entered the home to kill. Okay, Cheryl McCollum, if that doesn't run a chill, down your spine? I don't know what will. Because the girls have stated the survivors that there were

several occasions when they would go outside and Murphy the dog would go up to the tree line. Hey, can we see that photo again in New York control room? That the dog would go up to the tree line, to the edge of the tree line, and bark furiously. So Cheryl McCollum it's even been speculated that he was there stalking them, staring into the home with those freaky eyes that we saw

at sentencing, looking at the girls, looking at the layout of the home, and Murphy hit on him. Some people even think giving the dog treats to befriend the dog. Can you imagine the girls? They're in the light, as we're saying right there. That's a perfect picture for it. They're in the light. They can't see in the dark. And Coburger standing out there on one of those at least 23 trips to the murder scene. The girls come out. They can't see in the tree line, but the dog can smell Coburger.

She saw him. She told her boyfriend. She told her roommates. She told her parents. This was not a one-time event. And I believe not only did he drive around in stalk, I think he parked where you told you could see into the house so well, all he had to do was wait for her to walk the dog, go inside, what bedroom light does she turn on?

He knew exactly what room to go to, even without entering the home. He was well prepared. He had planned. He had stalled. He had researched. He was ready. Susan Hendricks, Cheryl McCollum is absolutely right. On some occasions, we learned that they couldn't see any.

in the tree line. They didn't understand why the dog was barking at the trees on those specific occasions when he didn't do it on other occasions. But Cheryl's right. There was an occasion. Guys, Susan Hendricks, um, investigative journalist, reporter, author of Down the Hill, My Descent to the Double Murder in Delphi, who was at the Coburger sentencing. Susan, one of the girls, at least one of them, did see a shadowy figure in the tree line. They saw a guy, standing in the tree line. Come on, please. Does two and two still equal four? I'm asking you that, Susan, not debate. Because who else would it be? They saw a guy stalking them from the tree line and they told people about it. Absolutely. Kaylee told Bethany and in the beginning of the

investigation, we heard whispers about Kaylee having a stalker. And I believe that this was so planned co-worker that he may even had dog treats to give the dog, I'm thinking. So I believe he stalked at home. And as you said, knew exactly where to walk, but 20 plus times and you're right, I think even more. But think about it, going there maybe with dog treats. And he looked at that, I think, as an obstacle. Okay, how do I get in here? I have to befriend the dog. And I think he did just that. And Kelly was afraid. One night she was on the phone with her roommates and said, can you come home? I saw some guy staring at me. I believe it was

Coburger. And I know on location of your emergency? Hi. Something is happening. Something happens in our house. We don't know what. What is the address of the emergency? One one. What is the rest of the address? Oh, King's Road.

Okay. And is that a house or an apartment? It's a house. Can you repeat the address to make sure that I have it right? I'll talk to you guys. We're, um, we live at the lights over next to them. I need someone to repeat the address for verification. The address, 1122 King Road. Why was there a deal?

How did Brian Koeberger escape the death penalty? As late as last night, victims' family texting me, stating, We're hearing he doesn't even believe in the death penalty. Could that be true? Do the constituents know that? And also, one of the keystones of the deal, a deal for Coburger, wasn't a deal for the victims, was that he wouldn't appeal. Listen. It was our conclusion that straight up guilty pleas as charged, waiver of appeal for closure.

So we have accountability and closure with fixed life sentences was the best course. The best course. You mean the easiest course for you? That was the district attorney that did not take this case to trial to find out the truth. We're getting the truth in little drips and dribbles like the fact that Koeberger may have been in the home stalking it before the murders inside the girls' homes. How many times do you think you went in there? Did he go through their underwear drawer? Did he smell their perfume?

Did he sit on their bed and have fantasies? You were just hearing the prosecutor on our friends show 48 hours. But all that is a bill of goods. He can appeal. Listen. When Brian Coburger took the plea deal that saved his life, he also agreed to not appeal the decision in the future, waiving his right to appeal. However, defendants still have the right to post-conviction release. even if they waive their right to appeal.

Issues like ineffective assistance of counsel, a discovery violation, prosecutorial misconduct, or that he was pressured into taking the deal. Let's unleash the lawyer. Joining me tonight, Philip DeBay, high-profile lawyer, joining us out of L.A. has tried a lot of felony cases. Philip DeBay to suggest that Brian Coburger will not appeal. That's not true.

He absolutely can appeal. Look at Scott Peterson. How many times is this guy appealed? It's over and over and over and over and he keeps finding a habeas, then a post-conviction relief. It just goes on and on and on. There's nothing stopping Coburger from appealing debate. Yeah, and that's what the U.S. Supreme Court said, which is why I don't understand why people throw in that condition of the plea.

Why would you condition a plea upon waiving all your appellate rights when the U.S. Supreme Court shined in back in 2019 in Garza versus Idaho, ironically, that a plea agreement is basically a contract and that you cannot contemplate at the time of the plea of all constitutional issues, particularly unique to a specific defendant, to rise to the level of a knowing, intelligent, involuntary waiver of those rights. But my response to all that is let him. I disagree. And I'll tell you why. Because certain. evidentiary issues only arise after the conviction or the plea. For instance, just off the top of my head, let's go with Alex Murdoch, that sack of crap,

a technical legal term. Alex Murdoch absolutely murdered his wife, Maggie, and his son, Paul, his own son. Why? Over all of his millions and millions of dollars of embezzlement from his clients, one of them a quadriplegic. And it was all going to come out in Maggie's divorce. Okay. So alternative murder, double murder.

Only after the conviction did the clerk of the courts publish a book. And it was then a juror said, oh, she tried to get me to plead guilty. Is that true? Don't know. But those are the claims. So there's no way under our. jurisprudence, that you can sign off to issues that you'll never appeal that you don't even know about. Impossible. There's no way that Coburger is not plotting an appeal. No way.

P.C.R. Post-conviction relief. Lady Justice doesn't always care if you had a jury trial or you pled guilty. If there is a perceived misdoing, there will be a remedy under the law. Come on. Debate. Everybody appeals, much less somebody that just got moved to solitary, right? Of course. Well, the distinction between Garza and Coburger is in Garza, what happened was he kept telling his lawyer, I want to appeal, I want to appeal. And counsel let the deadline to file just sort of lapse. And what the high court said is, no, you are presumptively ineffective under the Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution if you fail to timely appeal as asked by your

client. So let's just pretend hypothetically that he would have timely appealed. Then what the court would do is go back, look at the waiver form, look at the transcript of the plea to determine if his plea was given knowingly, intelligently, and voluntarily. So again, my response is let him, because by all accounts, when you look at the plain language of that transcript, he answered every question, he didn't hesitate, he didn't stumble, he didn't stammer, he answered coherently, pithy, terse, and cogently. Straight out to Susan Hendricks, joining us, investigative journalist there at the

sentencing. part of the deal that the DA sold everybody is that there would be no appeal, that somehow this would be the end of it all. That's not true. Nancy, and that is where the frustration was. And I even saw it during the victim impact statements and sentencing hearing. I looked over Steve Gengalva's, Kelly's father, when the prosecutor got up and said, almost making excuses as to why the plea deal happened. And I even wrote in my notes, not the place or time. But I looked over and I see Steve shaking his head.

That family is still upset that there was a plea deal. Knowing deep down what he had done to their daughter stabbed 34 times, Kaylee, they wanted justice. They wanted the death penalty. And that was cut off from them. To Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us, a renowned medical examiner out of Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth, Texas.

He is a star of a brand new podcast. Mayhem in the morgue. He is esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Dr. Kendall Crowns, explain the facial wounds that Kelly Gonzalez suffered. Certainly. So she has what is described as facial mutilation to the eyes and nose. And what can be seen is when someone is stabbing an individual with a heavy knife is what was supposed to be used.

They can plunge the knife into the facial bones and into the eyes and into the kind of thinner bones of the face and crush those bones while they're stabbing into the face. It takes a large amount of force. But from the descriptions, it sounds like there's a fair bit of cast off all over the place that he's probably really pounding on our head with the knife in place, causing the sharp force injuries. And then there's also a description of blood force injuries,

which could be caused by a blunt object that they haven't found yet. It could be caused from the handle of the knife as well. Another object at the scene that hasn't been found that could have been used to crush her face and pound in her face and break her skull. And Maddie Mogan's attack was brutal. I think she sustained even more stab wounds than Kili did, although Kielies were in the face.

What about Maddie's? attack Dr. Crowns. So Maddie has multiple incised and stab wounds plus penetrating injuries of the lungs and liver. So she would have had to have had multiple stab wounds that go into her chest cavity, into her abdominal cavity, probably as she's laying in her bed and being stabbed brutally in the chest and abdomen. And then she has what are called incised wounds, which are longer wounds than they are deep, which can be from the knife being drawn across her body, causing these large gaping wounds as well.

Cheryl McCollum joining us who investigated this case herself. And after you hear those injuries and about Ethan being slashed across his jugular with arterial bleeding, shooting up to the ceiling and all over the room, we took a deal. Because he wouldn't appeal, and now he can appeal, Cheryl McCollum? A deal for who? If you were ever going to use a death penalty, it's in this case. You have four young people, completely innocent, had harmed no one, was not involved in anything illegal.

They were in their home, in their beds. And Nancy, when you describe. the injuries. This was not some real quick from a distance. This was a very violent, long scene. This was not quick. He took time with every single victim to ensure that he had killed him. She's not so what's wrong. She's not waking up. Yeah.

Okay, one moment, I'm getting help started that way. Okay, thank you. What's up? If the world had known, the horrific injuries, Keli Gonzávezovice's face stabbed so many times. She is disfigured and beyond identification. Maddie Mogan wounds. Zanerkernotal more than 50 stab wounds. 50. It's unbelievable. He brutalized each and every one of them. And tonight, Wild Coburger is gnashing his teeth and twisting his tail, plotting his appeal that he swore he wouldn't launch. We're also learning about his obsessive

hand washing behind bars and that Coburger has a mommy issue. Let's start with the hand washing obsession. Listen. Brian Coburger's hygiene habits reportedly irked other inmates at the Latow County jail. They say Coburger washed his hands dozens of times every day and the only thing longer than his showers were his phone calls to his mother. While Coburger was seen wearing gloves in public and to throw away his trash in the weeks after the murders, it's unclear if the convicted quadruple killer is still concerned about leaving

DNA or is a certified germaphobe. With that in mind, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, that's quite the dichotomy, is it not? Because this crime scene was so horrific. The students were slaughtered. They were slaughtered. It was horrible. It's unlike anything you see on TV or movies. It's Smells. It's grimy. It's horrible. The victims are lying there. They have been dead for hours bleeding out. But yet the killer obsessively washes his hands. Explain the dichotomy. How can that be that the obsessive hand washer left such a horrific crime scene? When you see the thumbs up photo where he's in front of the shower curtain, it's like he was in a hurry to clean everything off as well as his hands. You know, Nancy, he could have OCD. which is obsessive compulsive disorder. And in that case, the person has an intrusive thought that they can only neutralize by an act.

So the thought could be, I'm in prison, I'm in a cage full of feces, it's very dirty here. That's the intrusive thought. The action is, I'm going to take long, long showers and wash my hands as much as possible to get off all these germs. So think about the type of punishment this is for him. I'm not as upset by the death sentence

or the lack of the death sentence. immediately because I think it's sort of justice served to put somebody with OCD in a very filthy prison with feces all around where their brain is just going to fire and fire and fire and tell them that there are germs all over him. It seems to me like justice served. Okay. Well, you know what? Cheryl McCollum, could you please respond to Dr. Bethany that it's worse to be behind bars without Purell than it is to get the death penalty, how wrong that is, hit it.

If we are going to go by an eye for an eye, he does not deserve to take another breath, period. He took something from these families and their friends that cannot be replaced. And I'll tell you something, it can't even be an eye for an eye. It's not equal here. These children were loved, they were smart,

They were beautiful. They were just about to take off and be whoever they were destined to be. And he stole that. He stole graduations. He stole jobs. He stole future marriages. He stole future children. He deserves the ultimate punishment.

Chris McDonough, I didn't know where she was going on this as well. The skulking in the home equals sexual foreplay. I got that bomb dropped on me. Now, Dr. Bethany is saying, that for Coburger being behind bars without Purell is worse than the death penalty, could you please respond to her? So let's put ourselves into that room just for a moment. The very first thing you will recognize immediately is the silence in that room.

The second thing you will recognize is the cast off and the amount of rage and horror that took place. The third thing you will recognize is imagining this person who's cosplaying Ted Bundy in the backyard and then he's in your room almost immediately as the helper to brutally kill you. This is what these victims saw, specifically Kaylee and Maddie. they experienced it first. It's horrific. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, I'm thinking through all of his amenities at his new digs. There's really nothing stopping him since he's got use of a tablet. He has cable. He has money to. fund his iPad, I don't think anything is precluding him from ordering Netflix or Prime or Showtime or anything else when he's tired of reliving the murders. He can just hop on to one of the pay channels. I mean, this is wrong. No wonder that Gonsolva's family was so angry about this deal.

And do you know what else he's going to have access to, Nancy? Psychotropic medication. And then what that means is that not only will he get tired of his fantasies, but then he'll have pay television, the iPad, whatever else he wants, Nancy, is that there will be expert psychiatric care because OCD is very biologically motivated. So all those scary thoughts, anxious thoughts, they're going to calm down. And he's going to be in better shape that he's been in a long, long time. And let's say he's watching Netflix or pay-per-view television, even just looking at a little bit of. woman is going to get him excited. He can make mountains out of a molehill, Nancy. So this is all kinds of material that somebody who is a sexual sadist should not have access to. We are also learning about Brian Coburger's mommy issues. Listen. Coberger lost his temper at another inmate who he

believed was insulting his mother. According to a police report detailing in many accounts, Coburger was on a video call with his mother when a fellow inmate yelled, you suck at a television screen while watching sports. Coburger, assuming the insult was directed at him or his mother, aggressively approached the inmate and questioned if the comments were aimed at them. The situation was resolved quickly after the two inmates discussed the misunderstanding. So, Coburger has a physical altercation with another inmate on the misperception. The inmate commented about his mother.

Okay. Hey, mommy issues out the yin-yang, Bethany. You know, I think what's interesting about murders is that they often see their mothers as pristine, as a source of comfort. You know, when inmates escape from jail, as you once said, where do you find them hiding in mommy's house? That's always where they go. And I think it's because that early, early attachment makes them believe that that person will never, ever turn away from them, that there will always be comfort. care. But you know what? It's not always true, Nancy. Sometimes these mothers, just like Casey Anthony's mom, they're on to their child after a while, and that comfort and care is withdrawn, and that may

just happen to Brian Coburger. He was on a FaceTime or Zoom with his mother. If he can do that, what's next? Only fans? If he has access to his mother, Nancy, he can gain access to whatever he wants. And we know that men who think like this need very little material to spark their sexual fantasies. That's what I am worried about. And we know that sex offenders in particular, when they get out of jail, which Brian Coburger never will, they are angrier, more aroused and more ready to offend than ever. So in some ways, he's being given his own version of pornography to respond to. It may not mean anything to anybody else, but in his fantasy life, it will mean a lot to him. The stabs so deep, her liver is lacerated, stabbed 30 times. So many stab wounds, so many

stab wounds. A lacerated liver? Nearly every study. of serial killers includes the keeping of trophies, trophies, whether it's the victim's jewelry, whether it's a driver's license, whether it's underwear or a garment, a piece of clothing, a photo. It's very, very, in fact, it's predictable that a killer keeps a trophy like you and I would keep ticket stubs to a concert or a photo album. They keep Memento souvenirs of their murders. Listen. Koberger kept trophies from women he knew, including two ID-type cards belonging to women he knew years before the murders.

One belonged to a woman he worked with at the Pleasant Valley School District when he was a security guard at the school. There is no way of knowing how he got the IDs, how long he had them, or what he planned to do with them. You know, Chris McDonough, joining me, director of the Cold Case. foundation, and you can find him now on the interview room on YouTube. Chris McDonough very often when you process a crime scene, you see all sorts of things, but you don't realize their significance. But now we see that Coburger kept trophies. He kept these IDs of women that are alive, thank heaven, that he knew years ago. Why? And when you go to a crime scene, you don't always realize what you've got.

You don't realize that's a trophy from some other incident. Yeah, and when you start thinking about that at length, Nancy, you realize the depth of the sadistic fantasy that was playing out here. In this particular case, there are two identification cards from gals that he apparently had contact with way prior to the homicides. But what it does tell us is it, gives us an insight into his fantasy-based plan that the reason these individuals take those types of items is to relive the events. So, and they transfer that into this sexual, you know, play that they believe is going on

in their heads. And, you know, the doc can tell us a lot deeper about why that is. You know, Susan Hendricks, before I get a shrink in on this, what do we know about the women whose IDs he had? And what we're talking about to start that Q&A is when you look in his apartment, you may see trophies that you don't even realize are trophies. It could be a scarf. It could be a pair of socks. It could be anything that reminds him of. a particular woman absolutely and the IDs that he did take investigators in the beginning went

to those women and they said we know who he is he was never any threat i think maybe this was a dry run how sneaky do you have to be to get someone's ID did you break into their house did you steal their wallet how did you get it he's sneaky that tells me that he was in that house like you said earlier during the parties, getting to know Kaylee's doll, all of this to me says, oh, he took those women's IDs. How? How is the question. You know it was freaky, Dr. Bethany? What Susan Hendricks just said about him going to the home, maybe during a party, maybe skulking around on his own and like sniffing their pillowcase. But what she said about, how did he get these other women's IDs? Did he pilfer through their pocket?

book? Did he stick his nose in their purse and smell it? What else did he take their lipstick, their perfume, their comb? But just imagine Coburg are going room to room when I guess nobody was there, looking around, figuring out the layout, picking up their items, looking at them. You know, he smelled them. I don't know why. I'm just telling you he did. So I don't know what that means, I just know that it happens. You can explain what it all means. Well, of course, smelling the underwear and putting on the lipstick, like Biki TK killer, remember he dressed himself up in women's stockings and clothing. It's like inhabiting the victim, in fantasy, having sex with the victim, gaining proximity to the victim. Nancy, we would all be naive to think that the murder victims are the

only people he stalked. That's one thing. But I think what's fascinating is the ID cards as opposed to women's underwear because what that tells me is you cannot pursue or identify somebody through their underwear. There's no social security number on it. There's no telephone number or address. But once you have someone's ID, you can track them, Nancy. So this is akin to like somebody's book reading list. You know, it's the next book he's going to check out at the library or with some of my patients who are sex addicts, they're porn cash on their computer. It's the next video they're going to look at. So this tells me that sniffing women's underwear was simply not enough. He had graduated. He was graduating to collecting IDs to ID future victims. You know, another thing about

did he get into the home. How did he get those IDs from the other women? What other trophies were in his apartment that we don't even know. We can't identify that they are trophies. But he got those IDs from those women and they don't know how he got them. And it's leading me back to another intrusion. And that Susan Hendricks is from a female colleague he had where he offered to help her. Those words echo in my mind because he said that to one of the murder victims, I'm here to help you. He offered to help the female colleague set up her Wi-Fi in her home, but he set it up so he could spy on her in all the rooms in her home, watching her watch TV, changing clothes in her bedroom,

walking naked into her kitchen to turn on the coffee pot. He helped her too, didn't he? Yeah, and she felt uneasy. She felt like someone was watching her or following her. So she went to coworker thinking, he's a man, he cannot set it up when it was actually, I believe, him making her feel uncomfortable. And he's the guy that's going to solve it,

which means more access. to this woman. You're absolutely right when saying, no way are the women in that home who are brutally murdered by this man are the first women that he has stalked or followed. No way. Philip Jubez is the same thing over and over and over again. When you don't know what he's going to do, look at what he's already done. Again, when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. We know he had the trophies from these other two women and they can't explain how he got them. Their IDs, pocketbook, home, workstation, nobody knows. We know he got into his female co-worker's home to help her set up her Wi-Fi and her nanny cams that she had in her home,

her surveillance. So he could watch her. He could get into her home. So what does that tell me? He did get into this home to stalk them and get the lay of the land, which goes to lying in wait and seeking the death penalty. Do you ever wish your client would surprise you? But no, they do the same thing over and over and over again, just like Coburger has. I'm not feeling that in this case. I don't think that the theft of those two ID cards was sexually motivated in any way, shape, or form. And I'm telling you, this is just based on decades of working in the justice system.

What I am seeing is the dawning days of the gateway crime, namely petty theft, just stealing two identity or ID cards as a crime of opportunity that could eventually lead to bigger and greater crimes. And the fact that he was able to pull it off gave him a thirst to commit greater offenses. But I don't think the theft of those two cards was sexually motivated. Maybe at most he was going to commit identity theft with them. Are you a shrink? No, you're not. Bethany is a shrink. All right? She's a psychoanalyst. And I didn't ask you a shrink question. I asked you about defendants that keep doing the same thing over and over and over. Dr. Bethany, really?

Two women that he works with that somehow he gets in their home, their workstation, or their pocketbook or their car, and pilvers around and steals IDs that he keeps for years. And Dubay says it's not sexually motivated. It's about petty theft. Okay. Well, you know what? Drop the mic.

Well, this shows me the amount of the preoccupation that he has. And it's not just a preoccupation with sex or stalking or anything like that. It's a preoccupation with inflicting maximum harm in order to enhance sexual arousal. He is a sadist. He's also a voyeur because now he's spying on this woman. And he's stalking because it's a part of victim selection. Think about what we know about serial killers. Sometimes they'll drive from city to city.

or neighborhood to neighborhood or jump on the railway or whatever or spend a lot of time online because they're looking for the perfect victim maybe like you and I looking for a Michelin-rated restaurant you know we'll just want the the best meal on our vacation or something like that so these all these people all these women were in his sights in the male victim was slashed you know his throat was slashed but the women were stabbed repeatedly and I had the same thought Dr. Kendall Crown is that he was wanting to get the guy out of the way because the women were his object of sexual interest. Will Brian Koeberger appeal? I'll put money on it. But as we wait for justice to unfold, Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.