Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - New Victim of Doodler Serial Killer Identified?

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

Its been nearly 50 years since a serial killer called The Doodler claimed his first victim. Five deaths in San Francisco have been attributed to the killer. Now a sixth victim has been identified. All the victims are white, gay men, while the killer is thought to be black. The Doodler moniker was given because police say the killer would drew sketches and doodles to show to his targeted victims. These cases remain undolvedJoining Nancy Grace Today: Dr. Katherine Ramsland, Professor of Forensic Psychology, Assistant Provost: DeSales University (Pennsylvania), Author: "How to Catch a Killer", Psychology Today blog: "Shadow Boxing", Facebook.com/Kath.Ramsland, Twitter: @KatRamsland  Matthew Mangino - Attorney, Former District Attorney (Lawrence County), Author: "The Executioner's Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States"  Dr. Michael B. Donner, PHD - Psychoanalyst, Clinical and Forensic Psychologist, Author: "Tearing the Child Apart: The Contribution of Narcissism, Envy and Perverse Modes of Thought to Child Custody Wars", michaelbdonner.com@michaelbdonner  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Serial killers. Many people in the general public don't believe they exist like the boogeyman at Halloween that it's all just folklore that is not true

and there are many many more serial killers than the ones we know of Ted Bundy the clown killer BTKK, buying torture, kill Dennis Rader. It goes on and on and on. The son of Sam. You can name them off the top of your head if you ever watch TV or if you ever read crime reports.

Unless you've been living under a rock in a deep, dark cave in another country, you have heard of serial killers. The fact that there are many more of them that have ever been uncovered remains. First of all, take a listen to this call to San Francisco PD. The date is January 27, 1974, and the time is now 10.30 a.m. We're going to take a portion of the radio transmission that occurred last night at approximately 1.25 a.m. That would be 27th of January, 1974 at 1.25 a.m. Can I get a question?

I believe there might be a dead person on the beach right across from your lower street. Lower street. If you follow the street right down to the water. I was walking along there, and I thought somebody was lying there, but I didn't want to get too close, because, you know, I didn't know what could happen. Okay? Do you think that you want to give me a turn, Mr.? No, I don't think that's necessary.

I just wanted to let somebody know I maybe need help or something. But, um, I felt it was my duty to report it. A dead body on the beach right across from Alois Street. This 911 call comes in to San Francisco police, tipping off what turns out to be the tip of the iceberg. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. When we say serial killer, it's not always a serial killer you imagine. I mentioned, for instance, Ted Bundy, who would stalk his female victims all across the country, culminating in a spree at the Cayo house in Florida. Bind, Torture, Kill, BTK killer Dennis Rader would stalk women when he was on his job as a dog catcher, also a deacon at his church, identifying targets. We still to this day don't know how many victims

are connected to many serial killers who are household names, like Israel Keyes. He came to light after the murder of an Alaskan barista, Samantha Koenig, who was standing in her coffee stand and suddenly was not. Her murder uncovered the murders of women and men all across the country. The M.O.'s modus operandi, method of operation, varying wildly. While he took her from a coffee stand amidst a snowbank, he would go and hunt at RV parks, at campgrounds.

We have one killer shooting like a sniper into campgrounds. You have the D.C. snipers, serial killers, who don't know their victims, just pick them out at a distance and fire, killing one after the next after the next. Their methods of operation often vary, but yet they are all serial killers. Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. You were just hearing that. That victim dead on the beach was one of many. With me in all-star panel to make some sense of what we know right now. Dr. Catherine Ramsland, professor of forensic psychology, assistant provost at DeSalle University in Pennsylvania,

and the author of How to Catch a Killer. Her Psychology Today blog is shadow boxing. It's amazing. Matthew Mangino, high-profile lawyer joining us, former prosecutor, the district attorney in Lawrence County and author of The Executioner's Toll. Cheryl McCollum with me, founder, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. I met her in the trenches fighting crime. And now she is at coldcasecrimes.org. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a new hit series, Body Bags, with Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeart joining us. But first, I want to go to Alexis Ter under many, many disguises. Let me just say guises. They're not always disguised as you would think of in a costume.

Do you remember it hit the news, the headlines, because it was Ashton Kushner's girlfriend that was murdered? But her killer had murdered many, many other people. And we are finding, Alexis Tereschuk, that once you identify one, you solve one case, you get that killer. That killer can be linked to many other cases. Have you seen that in your experience in investigative reporting, Alexis? Yes. And the thing is, there have been, there will be people that are, didn't die, but they were victims of some sort of horrific trauma by the person, the serial killer who's killed a lot of other people. And these are often the key to the case. They will finally come forward. Maybe decades later,

they are, they're embarrassed about what happened, embarrassed what they did. And they will say, I know this person because I was a victim of assault by them. I wasn't killed. And then that will open up a flood of other people as well. So there are living victims that can come forward when there is a serial killer. And we see that happening right now, Cheryl McCollum, in a case that you have worked on tirelessly, the murders of Abigail and Libby in Delphi, the two girls on the bridge. Right now, police are sending out information regarding a catfisher,

a guy who used a kind of a Justin Bieber male lookalike model as his fake photo to catfish little girls to get photos of them naked, semi-nude, get their home addresses, try to meet up with him. The police are asking for anyone that has been in contact with him in the hopes that they can make a case in the Delphi murders. Just what Alexis was just saying. Absolutely. And they're going to take that and kind of spider web it out to see if they can connect him not only to other victims, but also the area. Did he want to meet anybody else near there or at the bridge specifically? But, Nancy, I want to point out one thing, if I can, about the call that was made. It was interesting to me on that call where he says, I found a dead person.

He leaves it gender neutral, which is really odd. And then he feels the need to explain why he's calling the police. As a matter of fact, let's take a listen to that one more time. You're absolutely correct. And I used to love to play 911 calls to a jury because it takes you to the time, to the scene, to the moment something is happening and expresses like no opening or closing argument ever could what really happened. The date is January 27, 1974, and the time is now 10.30 a.m. We're going to take a portion of the radio transmission that occurred last night at approximately 1.25 a.m we're going to take a portion of the radio transmission that occurred last night at approximately 1 25 a.m that would be 27th of january 1974 at 1 25 a.m i believe there might be a dead person on the beach right across from your lower street.

A lower street. If you follow the street right down to the water. I was walking along there and I saw somebody lying there. But I didn't want to get too close because, you know, it could happen. Okay? Do you think that you're wanting to return me to him? No, I don't think that's necessary. I just wanted to let somebody know I maybe need help or something.

So I thought it was my duty to report it. Okay. Let's work it out. Okay. Mm-hmm. Bye. The psychological scare. After my days of prosecuting, I still have dreams about finding a dead body.

Once you have seen a dead body, once you have been to a homicide scene, I don't think you ever really get over it. It's nothing like in the movies, nothing like that at all. So who is the killer? We now believe one killer is connected to at least six dead bodies. Take a listen to our cut three from ABC. Police in San Francisco are offering a $100,000 reward in the cold case of a killer who terrorized gay men in the 1970s. They've released an original sketch of the suspect known as the doodler, along with another sketch showing what he may look like today. Police believe he stabbed at least five men to death.

They're awaiting test results from DNA found at some crime scenes. The suspect was nicknamed the doodler because he was reportedly doodling when he met a victim at a bar. And our cut F1, our friends at the San Francisco Chronicle. The doodler serial killings was not well known. It happened in 1974, 75. And there was a killer who would go into gay bars and pick a person, draw a sketch of them, and then go up and say, hey, like my sketch? And if you like the sketch, off they'd go to a private place, and they'd wind up getting stabbed to death. This happened at least five times, and my partner, Mike Taylor, on the project and I found a sixth victim as well. And there may be more. The thing that happened was it was not well covered in the mainstream.

Well, it was barely covered at all in the mainstream media because at the time it was, it was, it was oppressive for gay people, for gays and lesbians, certainly transgender people. It was, there were still sodomy laws on the books, cross-dressing laws. You can get arrested for walking down the street holding hands with someone of the same sex. So these things were fairly ignored. And that made it easier for the doodler to work his horror. It really did. You're just hearing Kevin Fagan. He is the host of the Doodler podcast. Alexis Torres, crime online.com investigative reporter. According to one survivor, the M.O. would be to doodle or draw caricatures of the intended victim and then approach the victim and go, hey, what do you think about this? That's very disarming.

It is. And that's what the police have said. The inspector in the 70s said he would often sit in bars doodling caricatures and cartoons on napkins. Then he would show it to people and that would be very disarming. So you think, oh, this is, you know, what a talented young artist this guy is. And, you know, you love to see somebody with a talent, especially San Francisco, you know, such an artsy town. So it wouldn't have been anything out of the normal there. Take a listen to our cut five, our friends and our friends at NBC. The reason why investigators call him the doodler is because a survivor says that the suspect was actually doodling a sketch of him as they were talking with each other at a neighborhood diner here in San Francisco. But that survivor never testified

because he didn't want to be outed at the time. Now investigators are hoping that more reward money and information on a sixth victim will help more people come forward so they can close this case. These composite sketches of the so-called doodler show how he may have looked in 1975 and how he could look decades later in 2018. Today, the San Francisco Police Department doubled the reward money in this cold case to $200,000. They've also connected a sixth victim, Warren Andrews, who was an attorney for the U.S. Postal Service in San Bruno at the time. San Francisco Chronicle reporter Kevin Fagan has been following this case for years now. By adding Warren Andrews as a sixth victim to the role of people that the doodler killed,

that could jog people's memories. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about a little known serial killer called the Doodler. Just got Morgan. The drawings are very revealing in my mind. Forensically, what do they prove? If anything, we know he would draw the victim. We know he would draw animals, caricatures, cartoonish sometimes. What, if anything, does that reveal as to his identity? He often said he was an art student as well. Don't know if that's true. I don't know if it talks a lot about his identity, but I think that it talks about his comfort level with getting really close to the

victims. And to me, that's quite striking, particularly when you, you know, you begin to talk about the level of violence, the intimate violence that went on in these cases. And so he felt, I think at least, and this is kind of Dr. Ramsland's bailiwick, but you know, that he felt comfortable enough to be in that environment and begin to kind of track these individuals and essentially hunt them. And so that tells a lot about this individual. You know what? You're right. Let's go to Dr. Catherine Ramsland, professor of forensic psychology. What do you make of it, Dr. Ramsland? Yeah, I do think that he was comfortable where he was. He wasn't getting caught. I think he was methodical. And I think he probably was motivated by either a mission to eliminate gay people because he had issues with it.

Um, or these were hate crimes because this is like an inter, uh, interracial thing. So he, he clearly felt comfortable. Uh, he, if, if he's the suspect that they, they do have, he seemed to be an attractive young man who easily talked to people and wasn't caught, so he would have felt empowered by that. To Cheryl McCollum, what do you make of the suggestion of it being a hate crime? Do you think the doodler is acting out of racial hate or hate because the victims are gay? I think he may himself be gay. Yeah.

And I think the suspect pool can be narrowed in several ways. One, this person is not afraid of going into a gay bar and staying for a long period of time and making conversation. So somebody that, you know, hates gay people or doesn't feel comfortable in that environment would not get them in that way. He would maybe get them in the parking lot, but not inside a bar. He's also not afraid of being seen inside that bar and being outed by anyone. To me, that makes a big difference.

Number two, he can draw. He's got artistic ability. He stated he went to art school, so that's going to narrow your suspect pool again. The biggest thing for me, in the 1970s, African-Americans in San Francisco made up 13%. You take out women, you're at about 7%. You take out children, you're at about 4%. And then you take around his age range. Nancy, we're at about 3%. And then you take how many in that group are potentially gay.

You ain't talking about 1% of the population. So your suspect pool is very, very small. Very small. Nancy, I'd like to add one more thing to this. Three of the victims, I find this kind of fascinating from my perspective. Three of these victims were actually immigrants. You've got one Swedish-American immigrant. You've got one individual that's German-American immigrant.

And you've got another person who may be the very first victim that was a recent Canadian immigrant to the U.S. So I don't know if there's any connectivity there, but I find that kind of interesting as well. And one of the survivors, too, I think. Yes, yes, you're absolutely right, Catherine. Take a listen now to Kevin Fagan. He is the host of the Doodler podcast. Turns out there's three people who may have survived this killer. The third man, he actually did talk to the police.

He was hogtied and attacked and stabbed. And he screamed so loudly that his neighbors chased the doodler away. He's dead by all accounts. And the diplomat is still alive. The diplomat doesn't want to talk. The diplomat is still scared. I don't blame him. All these years later, the doodler is probably still alive.

And the actor, I have a pretty good idea who the actor is, but he doesn't want to come out of the closet, even all these years later. To Cheryl McCollum, joining us in the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl, it's going to make it even more difficult to solve. Number one, not many people have heard of the doodler serial killer. I mean, you hear a son of Sam. You hear a Bundy. You hear Charles Mance. You just hear all these names you associate with serial killers. Most people have never even heard of the doodler. I noticed prosecuting sex crimes in rape cases.

Many women did not want to come forward for whatever reason. And in this case, a lot of guys are still living as if they're heterosexual. They don't want their family, much less the public at large, knowing they're gay. So it's going to be very hard, very difficult to solve this case if you can't get the victims to talk. Sure. I mean, you're talking about the 70s when people were still being openly attacked. There were laws on the books against sodomy. So, you know, of course, they didn't want to come forward. But Nancy, we saw this even as late as 1996 when we had the gay bar bombing in Atlanta. And some of those victims were more concerned about being outed, being taken out of the bar

on stretchers than they were about being hurt in a bomb. So, you know, it's understandable that they're scared and they don't want to come forward and have their lives turned upside down again. There is a composite sketch of the doodler taken all the way back when the murder started and recently. There is a sketch. They've been provided to us by the San Francisco Police Department, a front sketch and a profile sketch. And as Cheryl McCollum pointed out, the population of black males, gay, in San Francisco at that time was relatively low.

The igniting of the Doodler case occurred because a sixth victim is now linked to the Doodler. Take a listen to our cut F2, Kevin Fagan. He is the host of the Doodler podcast. The theory is that the Doodler attacked Warren Andrews on a bluff overlooking the ocean in a place called Land's End. And Andrews got up and fought him and the knife went flying over the cliff. So the Doodler picked up the nearest weapons at hand, which was a rock and a tree branch, and he finished it off. So we're talking about this particular victim, Warren Andrews. To Alexis Tereschuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, what can you tell me about Warren Andrews and why is he just now being linked to the doodler?

Well, when his body was found, it did not appear that he was a victim of a stabbing and the five previous victims were all stabbed. So they weren't there was not a connection there. And so they they didn't put it together. It also wasn't as close to the area as the other victims were found. They were found in different places, but this was a new location. So they just they didn't put it together. They didn't think that this was the thing because there wasn't a stabbing because the other five had all been stabbings.

And they thought, why would somebody, you know, change their method of murder? And so that they, they just didn't connect it. But then all these years later, they've decided that this was probably the same thing. To Dr. Kathleen Ramsland, joining us, author of How to Catch a Killer. Serial killers do change their M.O. They don't always kill in the same way. Correct. They do change their M.O. and especially if that circumstance was true that he lost the knife, but they will change their M.O. to achieve their goals. It's also 1974- 75. We don't really have much

by way of linkage analysis at that time. The FBI's profiling program had not even gotten going yet. And there really wasn't any sense of how do you link these? The geography and the victim type should have been enough because it was within that range. It was in the time period. But because of the difference in the murder weapon, they didn't link it. But there's no reason to think it wasn't even a myth at that time that serial killers always used the same weapon because there weren't any databases at the time.

Cold case detectives Dan Cunningham and Dan Dedette have been trying to solve the Doodler killings. In recent years, the case has reignited and is now gaining some degree of notoriety. But I guarantee you, if you ask even crime aficionados about the Doodler, they won't be familiar. What is the likelihood of any DNA? What was the doodler's so-called type? Alexis Tereschuk, what did his victims look like? His victims were all white men. And he, the suspect that they have, that they identified, that they believe was a black man.

And they all were living in San Francisco at the time. The suspect that they identified, that they believe, was a black man. And they all were living in San Francisco at the time. They actually said they thought that the suspect was living in the Bay Area, but not San Francisco specifically. So there are other towns around Berkeley and Oakland and other towns in the area. But they knew that they were hanging out in gay bars or that they met after the bars had closed. There was maybe like a truck stop or a diner, you know, where you would get, you know, coffee or drinks afterwards, not drinks, but snacks. And that's where he would meet them, too. So they all all the men were white and the suspect they were saying they believed was black. And they were not all living secret gay lives.

One of the victims was a drag queen, as I recall, and made no secret of lifestyle. But the others, I believe, did live in fear of being discovered to be gay. Also, what about DNA? Take a listen to Our Cut F6. Once again, Kevin Fagan, he is the host of the Doodler podcast. There's some promising DNA in this case that has emerged. And that's from what Dan has done and what Mike and I have done. There are some promising tips that have emerged from the podcast that I did, which got, you know, kind of went international. And so we got a lot of phone calls, a lot of leads coming in.

That's, you know, stitching things together. Dan doesn't want to give away his hand too much, of course, because, you know, if you spill all the details, they're no good in court. But there are, it's looking good. It's looking good. What about it, Cheryl McCollum? What about the possibility of DNA?

Oh, there's absolutely no question about it. When you stab somebody 11 times, 17 times, at some point you're going to have to hold on to them. And so when that happens, there could easily be DNA left behind with skin cells. When he beat that person with a rock, we can now get DNA off that rock if they preserved it correctly. There's just no doubt about it. In one of the cases, I think he hogtied someone. Again, on that rope, there could very easily inside those knots be DNA.

No question about it. Nancy? Yeah, jump in. This is Matt Mancino. I think what's interesting here is we're talking about murders that occurred nearly 50 years ago. And also an abrupt stop in those murders. We know that Warren Andrews has now been discovered as a six victim.

But, you know, it leads us to wonder why the abrupt stop. Was this offender in jail? Did he die? Did he move? And I think when you listen to the investigator, he talks about solving this crime, not necessarily making an arrest. So they may be able to determine who this perpetrator was, but they're not going to be able to make an arrest because this person is no longer available. And I think that this investigation appears to be on the track of solving a crime, not necessarily making an arrest. I don't know about that. Joe Scott Morgan, remember the Golden State killer, D'Angelo? Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

We were actually just talking about that in my class yesterday. He was caught decades later. Yeah, he was. Still alive. Yeah, yeah, he was. And he came to an abrupt stop in 86, I think it was. He came to an abrupt stop. But going back to what Mack had said relative, the biological evidence, was not just collected

back at that point in time, but how well it's been preserved. Because DNA evidence or the sourcing for DNA evidence is so very fragile. And so moving forward in time, how much care has been taken with this DNA? You know, they solved the Golden State case because of the actions of a forensic pathologist back in 1980, because he had preserved a duplicate rape kit. And I don't know that we're going to have anything that robust here. You know, Mac was talking about touch DNA and, you know, we're drifting from is he still alive to the DNA. And I agree with you on both points. Take a listen to our cut to Sergio Quintana, NBC Bay Area. 48 years ago today, police were called out to Ocean Beach near Uloa and 48th Avenue for what would turn out to be the first of the Doodler's victims. 50-year-old Gerald Cavanaugh had been stabbed multiple times.

His body left on the beach. Over the next year and a half, more victims turned up, all of them gay. year old Gerald Cavanaugh had been stabbed multiple times. His body left on the beach. Over the next year and a half, more victims turned up, all of them gay. Caucasian men, most were stabbed to death. Longtime gay rights advocate Cleve Jones says these murders rattled the community. I remember being very conscious of it and there were all sorts of rumors and fear. Chronicle reporter Kevin Fagan says there is still a lot of public interest in this case. The fact that someone got away with this many killings all those years ago just gets under a lot of people's saddle. It's not right. Detectives believe the killer is still alive. crime stories with nancy grace matthew mangino high profile lawyer joining us former prosecutor

and author matthew very often i was saying earlier to Cheryl, you don't see, for instance, rape victims come forward. They don't want the information out there for whatever reason. In this case, even more so, I believe there are more doodler victims than we know. Well, that's possible because we know that there are six victims who've been killed and there were three who were able to get away from him. You know, those three, although two of them, at least cooperating, didn't want to come forward in any way and testify at this point. But now that this time has passed, they may change their mind and be willing to be more active in this investigation, more willing to testify. I mean, they think there's up to 17, between 17 to 20 victims at this count. And this is how it happens.

Take a listen to our friend, Christian Kafton, KYVU Fox 2 and our Cut 12. In the early to mid 1970s, a killer roamed these streets, preying on gay men, beating them in bars, luring them away by offering to sketch them, and then investigators at the time said, stabbing at least five and possibly as many as 14 men to death. The case making headlines in the city. I know the gay community is well aware that these murders are going on, but we're looking for, primarily I should say, our search has been for someone that may have survived these attacks and haven't come forward and reported them. Newspapers at the time documented his killing streak. His habit of drawing his victims earned him the nickname the doodler. At the time, investigators said three men had escaped the doodler. Police interviewed the men and developed this sketch. Back then, investigators repeatedly interviewed one man and said they were certain he was their suspect. And that man still alive.

To our information, what about it? Alexis Terescheck joining us from Crime Online. The one guy that they identified as a suspect is still alive, Alexis. He is. And in fact, he was arrested back in 1976, in January 1976. So there was a newspaper article about the crime. And then a person was at a bar and saw a person there who was doing sketches. And they thought that it matched the suspect sketch.

So they called the police. When the police got there, this man had a butcher knife and a book of sketches. So they questioned him and they it was kind of like a perfect profile. They're saying this man was gay, but he struggled with admitting that he was a homosexual and that he had confessed and he was ashamed of what he was doing. He'd spoken to a psychiatrist about it. He was having difficulty. And so they believe that they had him and that he was the suspect. But the living, the witnesses at the time just absolutely refused to come forward and testify against him. Right now, we believe that there are at least six up to 17 to 20 victims. Back to Dr. Catherine Ramsland joining us, author of How to Catch a

Killer. How can we catch the killer, doctor? You're going to need some kind of hard physical evidence if you don't have witnesses willing to come forward and talk about it. It'll have to be some kind of hard evidence like the DNA. Well, she's right. What else can we do, Jay Scott? I think that it's significant. Remember, they talked about the knife that this individual had in itself. And this is kind of a long shot, but this guy stabbed multiple times. He didn't just stab once or twice. So you're going to have multiple injuries that perhaps if this, I can't imagine under any circumstances why he would have retained it,

but he may have, if he still has this knife, that might be a potential tie back as well. You know, for me with this, stabbings are very violent, not just for the victim, but also for the perpetrator. There's a chance that he could have commingled his blood with these individuals as he was stabbing them. Also, if he kept the sketches. Jump in.

If he kept the sketches, if he actually was sketching people that he then ended up killing, and he has those sketches, that would tie him, too. That's so interesting, Catherine. I was just going to comment about how serial killers, I'll throw it to you, Cheryl, often keep mementos. Like many people keep ticket stubs, they keep mementos of their murder victims, like a piece of jewelry, like a driver's license. She's right, Cheryl McCollum. She's absolutely right. And I was going to make the point about Samuel Little. He actually did drawings for law enforcement of his victims. So if this person, this suspect, did have a sketchbook, there are other potential victims in that book. It could be a money tree for law enforcement. Take a listen to our friend Leanne Melendez, ABC7, our cut seven. 27-year-old Jay Stevens, who was found brutally stabbed at Spreckles Lake in Golden Gate Park.

If I could ask you one or two questions. We found Jay's sister, Melissa Stevens, who lives in the North Bay. The fact that people are even interested in it now means we're getting closer. Because for years it went unnoticed. You know, a lot of families have been terribly damaged by this act of his. I know many of you are asking, how the heck have I not heard of the doodler? Well, number one, you have to understand that in the 70s, investigators were laser focused on other notorious cases such as the Zodiac Killer, the Zebra Killings, and let's not forget

Patty Hearst. And number two, well, let's just say that SFPD was not gay friendly and this community didn't trust police. So how can that happen, Alexis Tereshchuk, that, quote, more famous serial killers grab the headlines? Well, that's the way it works in the news business. Like whatever one is the most attractive, whatever is the sexiest crime at the time, the one that people are reading about. So if people come back and they want more and more information. And the thing was, remember, everything I said, it was the 70s. You know, there were still anti-homosexual laws on the books.

So people were not getting this attention because people maybe felt like these victims weren't as important. And it was said at the time, people were saying, you know, if these were white women that were killed in Pacific Heights, which is a very fancy area of San Francisco, this would be getting so much more attention. But people at the time felt like the victims were not getting attention because they were gay men and that they were looked down upon in society. You know, Cheryl McCollum, who's been working so hard on the Delphi murders, where cops are now reaching out for anyone that contacted a particular social media profile. In this case, if you were to reach out to people, what would be your request? Well, it's being done right now with you and that

podcast because there may very well be other victims that fought him off and survived maybe one stab wound or two that went to a hospital and never reported to law enforcement. Number two, if he's dead, the diplomat that's afraid, he would no longer be fearful this person would come after him anymore. So perhaps he would talk and give answers that are so needed by law enforcement. With the reward climbing now at $200,000, what else could be done to Matthew Mangino, a high profile lawyer, former prosecutor, what could be done to find other victims? Well, I mean, raising awareness, obviously, is one way, you know, some really, I guess, aggressive police work and gumshoe kind of work where you look into other stabbings that might have occurred at the time to try to track other victims who survived. The other thing is if you have a person of interest and you have information from witnesses,

albeit those witnesses might be reluctant, maybe you can get a search warrant. Maybe you can go into this person of interest's home and look for these drawings or look for other things that he might have retained from these homicides. So you might not have enough to file criminal charges, but you might have enough probable cause based on the statements of these survivors who are reluctant to get a search warrant to follow up on some of these leads and other things that you've been told about concerning this killer. To Dr. Katherine Ramsland, why do serial killers sometimes keep treasures or mementos of their victims? It's just evidence.

Well, they want to relive it. It keeps it close to them, and it also gives them a sense of dominance and power and ownership. I know the way Dennis Rader talked about the projects, which were his victims, is they now belong to him. And Ted Bundy said the same thing. He owned them. And Gary Ridgway said the same thing. He didn't like it when a victim was found because they belonged to him. If you have or believe you have information regarding the doodler, if you think you have a relative, friend, acquaintance that was a doodler victim,

call 415-553-9245. Repeat, 415-553-9245. There is a $200,000 reward. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.