Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Newborn disappears from crib, Maddie McCann update & new clues in cough med killer case

Episode Date: October 11, 2017

A 2-week-old infant disappeared from her crib triggering a search that ended with the discovery of Caliyah McNabb's tiny remains in a duffle bag in woods near the family's home. Nancy Grace looks at the case with psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, radio host David Mack ,forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and child advocate lawyer Ashley Willcott. Nancy and her experts update the decade-long mystery of missing Madeleine McCann. Court documents give new clues in the case of a would-be pastor who claims he stabbed his new wife to death in his sleep because of a cough medicine overdose. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. February 2004, Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. Join the search as an investigative reporter uncovers new evidence, interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray, Saturdays, 7, 6 Central and 9, 8 Central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. The search is on for a missing two-week-old baby. She was only 15 days old, but even in that short time,

Tim Bell loved every ounce of his little granddaughter, Kalia McNabb. She was tiny. You had to feed her every two hours. She had little diapers in. Her little head was about the size of a tennis ball. Her parents said they fed and changed her at 5 a.m. Saturday. They reported her missing at 10 that morning.

I just woke up. My daughter woke me up on the couch. I have a two-year-old and I have two-week-olds. My two-week-old is not in her sleep or her paci is on the floor. She's not in her sleep or she's not here. I don't know who got my kid, man, but I want my kid back, man. That's my child, man. I want my kid, man. But I want my kid back, man. That's my child, man. I want my kid, man. A 15-day-old baby girl, Kalia McNabb, goes missing. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. And all points, bulletin and amber alert goes out for baby Kalia

straight out to Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host joining us Dave Mack what can you tell me about the 15 day old baby gone missing because Ashley Wilcott you're a child advocate you're with me at 15 days one of my children were still in the NICU that would be Lucy weighing in at a big two pounds. And I spent the rest of my time staring at John David to make sure he was breathing. So how does a 15 day old baby go missing? It's not like it can, you know, go outside and catch an Uber. Dave Mack, how does the baby girl go missing? Nancy, it's one of those stories where the parents say that the last time they saw the baby was when they fed her at five o'clock in the morning on a Saturday morning.

Then they went back to check on her between 9.30 and 10, and she was gone. Hold on. I know I'm just a lawyer, Dave Mack, but let me just do the math here. 5 a.m. to 9.30. So a newborn baby manages to be unattended for four and a half hours. Wow. That's incredible to me because when mine were that age, it was about every two hours they had to be fed. Plus I was already staring at them anyway. So let me understand this. Dave Max indicated talk show host. You're telling me the mom and the dad had their eyes on the baby around 5 a.m. Is that correct? That's correct.

To Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist joining me. Dr. Bober, thank you for being with us. They do call 911 immediately after discovering the baby's not there, don't they? Yes, Nancy. And that's what you would expect. I did, you know, think it was odd that they would, the babies would disappear from their site for a total of four hours. That did seem a little odd to me, you say you know usually these feedings are every two hours so i'm just wondering what was going on during that time period but yes calling 9-1-1 is obviously the thing to do i want you to hear the 9-1-1 call for yourself listen i just woke up my dog woke me up on the couch um i have a two-year-old and I have a two-week-old.

My two-week-old is not in her sleeper. Her paci is on the floor. She's not in her sleeper? She's not in her sleeper. She's not here. I've looked everywhere. I've looked under clothes and everything. What's your address, ma'am? 1-2-1-4-5, Highway 36, Lot 31. Are you in the home park? Yes, Lot 31. Do you think the Home of the Home Park? Yes, Lot 31. Do you think somebody took her, ma'am?

My two-year-old said she's gone. And I looked everywhere in the house, so I don't know another possibility. What lot number are you at? 31. Okay. And you said you were sleeping, woke up, and she was gone? Yes. My two-year-old came and woke me up.

Okay. That's all that's going to count. Kalia! How old is she, ma'am? Two weeks old. Okay. Who else would have come in your house? I mean, as far as I know, nobody would have came in my house.

My two-year-old says Papa, but I called my dad and I called my grandparents, and they don't have her. My dad's on the way here now. Okay. All right. How long have you been asleep? The last time I woke up with her was around, I guess, 5 maybe. Okay.

So you were asleep since 5 o'clock? Yes. I didn't even mean to fall asleep on the couch. I sat down for a minute after dealing with her on the road. Can you tell if someone's been there? Is her blanket there or gone? Her blanket's gone. Her patsy's here on the entry or can you tell if someone's been there is her blanket there gone um her blanket's gone her pasty's here on the floor her blanket's not with us i don't know when i mean i i guess i don't know i guess it's with her okay and i have clothes in totes but i've

looked all in on it she's not here anything. Anything else missing, like a baby bag that she would have or anything else? No. Her bottle's here on top of my shelf. Okay. No, it's in my bathroom on my vanity. I'm sorry. Ma'am? Huh?

What about anything else that could possibly have gone, like, could be hers that could have gone with her? Um, no. Nothing else. Just her and her blanket. Okay, so the only thing that's missing is her and her blanket. Yes. And he didn't talk to the dad or grandma or anybody else? Her dad was here with me.

Dad just left, and he's walking around the park looking for her. Because my two-year-old says, I asked her, did somebody come in and take her? And she said, yeah, but I don't, you know, she's two. So I don't know if I can believe that or not. Did he look through everything, like under the bed? Yes, ma'am. In the bathrooms? Yes, ma'am.

Okay. Okay. Kalia! All right, what's your name, ma'am? Courtney Bell. C-O-R-T-N-E-Y-B-E-L-L. Just to let you know, Courtney, they've been on the way out there. I'm just getting this information to update them, okay?

Thank you so much. What's your phone number? I'm not sure of this number. My phone busted the other day. This is my grandmother's phone. She's been letting me use. All right. So you and the dad both were sleeping, I'm just trying to get an understanding so I can let them know

because of the questions that they're asking me. You and the dad both were sleeping or he just came back home? No, me and him woke up together. She woke us up together. Okay. The two-year-old woke y'all up and told y'all that the baby was gone? Yes. Okay.

She was kind of freaked out. I mean, I don't know. Because she was just standing there beside the couch in the corner. And I told her, come here. And I loved on her. And then I told my baby's dad to go check on Kalia. And then he told me, no, she's not in here. She's not in here.

Okay, well, the police should be in the area now. Thank you. I'll go ahead and let you go, okay? Thanks. Another issue, Ashley Wilcott joining me, child advocate. The baby was put back to bed, was fed and changed, according to the parents, at 5 a.m. on a Saturday morning and put back in bed with her 2-year-old sister. Now, you and I know about co-sleeping.

Absolutely. You're not supposed to co-sleeping. Absolutely. You're not supposed to co-sleep, but a lot of people don't know that. But what strikes me about that is whoever would have taken the baby wouldn't have woken up the two-year-old sister. A long time ago, before I had children, I would say, of course. You come in the room, you get a child out of the bed, of course it's going to wake up the other child. Not necessarily true, Ashley, because i can pick up one of my children and move them to another

bed and they don't remember a thing about it the next morning they have no idea how they ended up where they were so and they're nine ash so it can happen it would not surprise me that the two-year-old sister did not wake up i agree It wouldn't surprise me at all. But remember, this is also a tiny, tiny baby. They said the head could fit in a person's hand. And so being such a tiny baby, you're right. They may not at all notice. A two-year-old may not at all notice if a little baby's picked up,

even if the baby's sleeping right next to the two-year-old. Now, did the two-year-old roll over on the baby and suffocate the baby? Maybe they're sleeping in the same bed. That's the danger. You know what's interesting, Ashley Wilcott? To this day, people insist that Burke Ramsey killed JonBenet Ramsey, which is statistically, virtually impossible. Okay. You know, sibling side, as it's called in slang, a sibling side is very, very rare. Plus, if you look back at Burke and JonBenet, she was the dynamo. Burke was the one that was frail and pale. It looked like she could crack him in half. I never bought into that theory. The likelihood that a two-year-old little girl could roll over on an

infant while technically possible, I find very unlikely. Somebody took the baby out of the crib. And remember, we're basing all of this on the parent's timeline. Take a listen to the father as he begs, begs Christopher McNabb, begging for the return of his baby girl, Kalia. I don't know who got my kid, man, but I want my kid back, man. That's my child, man. I want my kid, man. So what happened to Kalia McNabb? Let's just talk forensically for one moment. With me is forensics expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thank you for being with me. Along with Dr. Daniel Bober, Dave Mack, and Ashley Wilcott.

Joe Scott, let's just break it down. I have handled many cases where a child disappears from their own bedroom. This family did not have an alarm system. Anybody could have gotten into that home. Very, very easy access. They were in a community where the homes are very close together. Nobody heard anything. Nobody saw anything.

But still, the likelihood of an intruder a stranger taking the baby out of the bedroom is low not necessarily true at malls or at fairs or out in the public to come into your home and take your baby a stranger kidnapped very low likelihood but it does happen do i have to say poly class or elizabeth smart it does happen joe scott it doesn't easy but i tell my students at university in my criminal investigations club that the cases they're going to work as investigators they're they're going to be looking at intimates far more frequently than they will at strangers and you will have more means opportunity and motive in that context with people that you live with.

And this is kind of making me scratch my head. How would someone just out of the blue snatch this little angel out of the bed and then they disappear for this extremely long amount of time without any accountability whatsoever? It makes me look really hard now at the people that are indwelling this house and also any individuals that may have had access to this house. Who do we know, Dave Max, syndicated talk show host, who had access to the home? Again, there's no burglary alarm system, nothing like that. What relatives or neighbors could get into this home? Nancy, as you mentioned, they did live in

a an area that had a number of other homes nearby there was no alarm system so yeah there was access and there were family members nearby because they actually were helping in the search so there's any number of people that could have had access if in fact the baby was kidnapped. Now, I want you to listen now to sound that we have obtained for you of a convenience store clerk that came upon the father, Christopher McNabb. You just heard him pleading for his child's return. Listen. He just came in and he said, hey, you remember me from last night? And I said, no, sir. He said, you sure?

I said, yes, sir. He said, remember, my baby's the one that got kidnapped. And I said, y'all don't leave me. Y'all don't leave me. That's him. That's him. And then they were standing there. And I said, please sure? I said, yes, sir. He said, remember my baby's the one that got kidnapped. And I said, y'all don't leave me. Y'all don't leave me. That's him. That's him. And then they was standing there. And I said, please don't leave me.

And then he started hollering and talking about, they're going to get me. They're going to get me. I've been running all day. I've been in the woods all day. And I tried to call 911. And it wouldn't go through. And I called again.

It wouldn't go through. And then the third time I called, it went through. And he's still standing here. And I said, he said, they're not going to get me. He said, anybody tries to meet me, they're going to get in trouble too. And I said, okay, okay, but I don't remember you like that, you know. And then he went to the door. And when he went to the door, I hit it again and got 911.

And I called 911 again. And I got him. And I said, he's here. He's at 36 at the Chevron. He's in my store. He's going crazy. I don't know what his problem is, but he said he was running from the cops. He'd been hid in the woods all day.

I said, he's really scary. Somebody needs to get here quick. And lastly, to know that that baby is dead, what does that mean to you? He's considered a person of interest. He is a person of interest. But he kept saying, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. We didn't do it.

They did it. And y'all are going to be surprised when y'all find out who really did it. But I didn't do it. There you were hearing the father, Christopher McNabb, who understandably was erratic and almost crazy acting upon the news that his baby girl was found in a duffel bag in the woods. The baby found in a duffel bag. Stuffed in a duffel bag. The county sheriff says that when they tried to speak to the father, Christopher McNabb,

he jumped out of a car and ran away. Ashley Wilcott jumped out of the car and ran away. If my child, God forbid this ever happen, is missing, you think I'm going to jump out of a car and run away? Oh, oh, no, I'll jump out of a car and run toward the sheriff car to find my child. Right. He's guilty of something. Even if it's just probation violation, but I would stand by the, he or the mother in the house with this infant know what happened if they didn't do it. What do we know, Dave Mack, about his behavior? He actually, he got out and started running. That's the whole thing is that they're,

they found his baby. He's been swearing up and down that he's wanting to find his child, that he didn't do anything. And yet the minute they tell him, Hey, hey we found the baby he takes off running and is gone for several hours we are bringing you the latest in the disappearance of a 15 day old baby girl kalia mcnab the parents christopher mcnab and courtney bell that brings me to another question to dr daniel bober where was the mom all this time? How could she not know? The dad is now charged. How could she not know what was going on in her own home? Well, that's the whole point, Nancy.

Circumstantially, it just doesn't really add up. It just seems like there's a lot of people that don't have a lot of information, and these are the people that, like your last guest said, are the intimacies of people that should really know what the whereabouts of the child are, and no one seems to really know anything, and it just doesn't really seem to fit.

No, it doesn't fit. And when it doesn't fit, there's a reason, Joe Scott Morgan. Yes, yes, absolutely. There is. And I think that, you know, we're as as forensics people and investigators, we're always having to observe the abnormal in the context of the normal. This is not marrying up with what you would expect out of normal behavior from people that are in charge of not just a 15-day-old baby, but a 15-day-old premature baby. These are the most fragile among us, Nancy, as you well know,

and require the most intensive care possible. And I'm not just talking about a hospital. I'm talking about once they get this child home. So it really gives us pause, doesn't it? Police questioned the mother, Kalia's mother, and she was released. However, the baby's father, Christopher McNabb, when he found out the baby's body had been discovered, he took off running. Now, the law in that jurisdiction is that a judge would never give a jury an instruction on flight. However, it can be argued by the prosecutor. You know, let me ask you a question, Dave Mack.

When you're driving on the interstate and you see the Georgia State Patrol pull up behind you, I assume that you might tap on the brakes and slow down, but you don't take off at 90 mph to get away from them or jump out of your car and run on foot because you don't have a reason to. Well, you can argue to a jury, Dave Mack, that flight is evidence of guilt. Yes?

Absolutely. And on top of all that, Nancy, if you were looking for your baby, your 15-day-old baby, and the police pull up behind you, the first thing you're going to do is slam on the brakes, assuming they've got information, not the opposite. To Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State

University, what do we know about the autopsy? You know, Nancy, given that the GBI has just released the cause of death in this particular case involving this child. This raises all kinds of new questions. It's no longer a matter of some kind of natural event. Maybe the child just passed away in their sleep and the parents were trying to hide it. Now we're truly faced with what appears to be, at least on the surface, homicidal trauma. The ME has now come out and said that this was, in fact, a death as a result of blunt force trauma. There's a lot that there is to consider here moving forward. How are we going to handle the witnesses in this particular case?

How are they going to be questioned? Hopefully, they're going to keep these people separated so that they can't try to, you know, get their stories straight among themselves. And then we have to consider this idea of what generated this injury. And one of the things that the ME is going to be looking at is, was this an instrument that created this trauma, like a blunt object, or was it a bare hand? One other thing that we have to consider here that is not off the table is, was this child dropped on their head that brought about this trauma? And, you know, that's obviously a distinct possibility. And they're going to have to go some distance, I think, to kind of paint this picture. But now the police have all of the information that they need at this point as far as the physical cause of death to go into these rooms and question everybody involved in this case very,

very specifically. Interesting. The mother is not detained. The father charged on an unrelated probation violation. That could be anything from a jaywalking to a DUI. It could be anything. To Dr. Daniel Bober, psychiatrist, I'm just curious about the mother, the mother of the baby. How can she not know what happened to the baby, that the baby's gone and stuffed in a duffel bag and left in the woods, Dr. Bober?

Yes, Nancy, you know, I've worked in pediatrics, and you know what your guest said is true about it, especially about preemies. The parents never leave their side. I mean, these are parents that basically live in the NICU. They are by the incubator. They don't leave. They don't even go to the bathroom. And when the babies are home, you know, we know, for example, that premature infants can have a higher risk of crib death. They are terrified, petrified that something is going to happen, and they never leave their side. So the timeline that the parents provided and the fact that the babies were out of sight for so long just doesn't add up at all.

It really doesn't. To Ashley Wolcott, lawyer and child advocate. Ashley, I want to hear your thoughts on the mother. She has to know what happened. I do not believe that this infant, who by all accounts has to be fed every two hours, was left alone in a crib with a two-year-old for more than four hours. And the mother of that infant doesn't know what happened. If she was there, she has to know, if not complicit. I just cannot believe that those two individuals in this house do not know what happened to their now dead baby. We are on the case on little baby Kalia. Let me pause and thank

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color than the other eye. She is physically beautiful and apparently was a happy, happy little girl. Her parents go on vacation and tragically agree to have dinner about a football field length away from the apartment where the children are asleep it's my understanding dave max indicated talk show host they can actually see the apartment the room where the children are asleep from where they are and they meet with another group of people and they're out having dinner within eye shot now to me a football field length away is a long way. But still, it's within eyesight. And when they go back to check on her, she's gone. The other children are there.

Maddie is gone. What is the break in the case, Dave Mack? The break right now, the reason we're talking about it is they are looking for a widow woman, a woman they believe that she lived near this holiday flat at the time Madeline vanished in May of 2007. They believe that before she left the country, she left the country after her husband passed away and they don't know her exact location somewhere in Eastern Europe. But that's the big break. What we know right now is police are desperately searching for a woman of Eastern European descent who is, as they

say, a quote, criminal witness in the disappearance of Maddie McCann. Now, how they didn't know this until right now, I don't know, but I do know this. Scotland Yard has just allocated another 154,000 pounds.

Alan, you'll have to look up and tell me what that is in dollars. 154,000 British pounds in Operation Grange's 12 million pound budget to find this woman who detectives say could shed light on the disappearance of Maddie McCann. Now, she is believed to have lived in Praia da Lua, where Madeline vanished that May, before leaving the country after her husband died. Why are they just now deciding that she is a forensic witness? They're claiming, according to Scotland Yard, she may have seen

or heard something which to her may have been insignificant, but to us could prove vital. If she recognizes herself from this description, she should contact police immediately. She has nothing to fear.

This is just to eliminate her from inquiries. Whoa. Okay. They are still working the theory that Maddie was taken during a, quote, burglary gone wrong. What do you make of it? Joining me, child advocate and trial lawyer Ashley Wilcox.

Nancy, this is a tough one. Thank goodness they're still searching because I have to believe in my heart that no matter what happened to this child, whether she's safe today or not, something's going to shake loose. I think eventually it comes full circle and we will know what happened to Maddie. But the only way that can happen is if they continue the investigation, which thankfully they're doing. The odd thing is, like you you said they're now wanting to interview this witness well why not sooner holy moly ashley ashley hold that back up jack

jackie is holding up her calculation they've just been given 203 000 that's nearly a quarter of a million dollars and this as we learned that internet trolls had been bombarding maddie mccann's parents with hate mail over the new cash infusion to find her as investigators still search for this woman of eastern european descent of eastern european descent police insist they think the woman has clues to Maddie's disappearance. Now, this is something I don't understand. Is it true Dave Mack, according to sources, her parents have been bombarded with hate mail? Why? Why would people do that to the parents? Haven't they suffered enough? Nancy, there are cowards who live on the internet. They hide behind

anonymous names and Facebook pages and things like that. And there's many people that hold the parents responsible for Maddie's disappearance and the amount of money that's been spent on this case. So they come from several different angles. And it's attack on a regular basis. Every time something positive happens in this case, the trolls come out of the woodwork and take over. It's almost like a concerted effort to go after the McCann family. You know what? Of course, you know, Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan is a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State

University and a death investigator. Joe Scott, I know why some people are skeptical and that is because when a child goes missing statistically more often than not someone within the family is involved but in this case I think it's very clear that Maddie was alive when they left for dinner and they came back and she's gone and yes it doesn't happen very often but it did happen those i mean at first i was skeptical of the mccann's just because the statistics but you've got a whole group of people sitting around dinner with them and then there are the haters that blame them because they went to dinner and left the children unattended would any investigation eliminate all those principles that are in the immediate orbit of the person that's missing. In this case, this little girl.

Eliminate them, and then you can move forward. This is the troubling part, Nancy. Investigations are conducted on a linear timeline. The further we move out in time, the further we move out in time from that original point, the more memories get faded, the more evidence erodes, this sort of thing. I'm encouraged, just like Ashley had mentioned, that they are still on this case. There are many cases like this that are sitting on desks all over the country here in the U.S. and all over the world that have just collected dust. But for some reason, it seems as though they know something. I think that with this new witness that they want to speak with, this is a really big deal. And I'd be curious to know what it is, what information does this person hold?

They didn't hold one year ago before she disappeared, this woman of Eastern European descent that lived near where Maddie went missing. I think it's just a combination of people angry that the McCann's left Maddie and her siblings alone. Some people think that they're guilty, that it's their fault, that they killed her. And anger that maybe she's getting more attention or money than other missing children, which is true. But I can tell you this from a crime victim's point of view. I'm just happy that they're getting the money and that they haven't given up hope and that the investigation is still happening. As they say, there's no indication this child is dead.

After she went missing, her body or any suggestion of her death was never found. And you know, Ashley, you're a trial lawyer like me. I mean, you know, those parents have gotten grilled repeatedly. They've been, they've taken lie detector tests. They've done everything. You know, that's who the investigators looked at first. And they have said many times they are not suspects. And I think, Nancy, you've already identified the crucial thing, which is people do not like these parents because they went to dinner and left two young children unsupervised. But they've then taken that and rushed to judgment to say it's therefore the parent's fault, which isn't true legally in this case.

It's not. That's just a jump that a lot of angry, critical people are passing judgment on these two parents who are still wanting to find their daughter. That night, the night that she went missing, Ashley Walcott, what happened that night when she went missing? I always go back to the beginning. Well, they were at dinner. They come back. She's gone. She's not there. And they were very clear, my recollection is, when they were initially interviewed,

that yes, they could see where they were staying from dinner. Even if it was a football field away, it was in eyesight. And they didn't see the daughter leave. They didn't see anyone take the daughter. It is a true crime mystery. They don't know what happened, but they have been diligent and adamant that they will continue to search for their daughter and they will not lose hope or give up. And boy, isn't that a whole lot different than the dad who ran when his 15-day-old was found dead. You know, this is how I remember it going down. It was the evening in early May, as I recall, May 3rd.

And Maddie was on vacation with her parents, Kate and Jerry McCann. She has two-year-old twin siblings. So there's three children in all. And they were all with a group of family and friends and their children. Okay. So Maddie and the twins have been left to sleep at that evening on a ground floor apartment. The McCann's and the other adult friends dine in a restaurant about 180 feet away. Now it's not quite a football field let's see a football field is 300 feet right okay so it's about you know two-thirds of a football field i i remember this

part uh joseph scott morgan that the parents went and checked on the children throughout the evening and say you know every 45 minutes, every hour. I don't know those numbers, but I know that they checked on them during the evening. And the mother is the one that went back and discovered she was missing. They left her there at 20.30. She was missing at 22, an hour and a half later. Somebody had to have seen or had to have known that she was taken. A lot of people claim Portuguese police came to believe that she died in an accident and the appearance covered it up. I think that has been completely debunked, Joseph Scott Morgan.

Yeah, and as you said earlier, there's no evidence of a foul play relative to a homicide, you know, blood, this sort of thing, a disruption in the apartment. I think that it's really important that the parents are going back and to check on these children because that tightens down the window, the timeframe that we'd look at when we're building this timeline that I mentioned just a second ago in the immediate. So we can frame it if the mother and the father can both state in the affirmative that they went at a particular time and then came back later in a measured amount of time, that narrows the field down of who would have had opportunity to get access to these children. They're on vacation, Nancy. They're

awash with strangers all around them. And I know they're there with friends and family and all this, but let's keep in mind, they're awash with people around them that are unknown to them. So Lord only knows who's kind of orbiting this place where they were staying. In the last days, the parents have spoken to the BBC. I want you to hear what they say. There is progress. There are some very credible lines of inquiry that the police are working on. And whilst there's no evidence to give us any negative news, you know, that hope is still there. It really is there in your hearts? The hope that one day you'll be reunited with your daughter? Yeah, well, no parent's going to give up on their child unless they know for

certain their child's dead and that we just don't have any evidence so my hope of marlin being up is no less than it was almost 10 years ago and now we head to raleigh north carolina for the very latest in the so-called cough syrup murder. What we have is a Bible college graduate and his young wife who works at home and is a Sunday school teacher herself. She ends up murdered in the couple's home. I want you to hear the 911 call that night. What do you mean by that? What happened?

I had a dream, and then I turned on the lights, and she's dead on the floor. How? How? How? I have blood all over me, and there's a bloody knife on the bed, and I think I did it. In the last hours, we learned that investigators reportedly say they have seized bloody bedsheets, a knife set, and an empty box of cold medicine from the home of that Bible graduate, Matthew Phelps, the aspiring North Carolina pastor, now suspected in brutally stabbing his

young bride dead to forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober what significance is this to you that they find an empty box of cold medicine in the home well Nancy it's highly suggestive that he was abusing the cough medicine that he was using it recreationally. And as you and I had discussed before, you know, this is voluntary intoxication. It's not going to be good for the defense, along with the 911 call, which in which he stated that he thinks the medicine can help him feel good and help him sleep. And so he wasn't using it as the way it was intended to be used medically and if he was using it recreationally it's certainly not helpful to their side well according to a search warrant we now have the couple's bed sheets bedspread pillowcases were all seized from the home the

warrant also states the items were stained with an unknown rent substance. Well, I can tell them what that is. It's blood. They also find an empty box of Choracidin cough and cold medicine, a knife block set, several laptops, a desktop computer, and Lauren's iPhone. They also took things like mortgage statements and receipts. Now, I wonder what the significance of those are. But back to you, Dr. Daniel Bober, when you find, and I'm just thinking about this as a trial lawyer from that perspective, when you find an empty box of cold medicine and you know that the suspect is saying, I took the cold medicine, I was out of my mind. I didn't know what I was doing. I would want to know this. One, you got an empty box. Where is the bottle

of cold medicine? Did he throw that away? If he did throw that away, why? Where is it? Or is it tablet form, which I doubt. Was there any left? Do we have any idea how much he had taken if there was any left? Also, when did he buy it? If he bought it a month before, the fact that it's empty now would go toward a defense. Is there a receipt? Can we narrow down when, where it was purchased? Maybe even get him on video purchasing it that night and he drinks the whole bottle. I mean, there's still a lot to find in order to prove that he was voluntarily drinking Coricidin. Yes or no? No, I agree with you.

Not only when did he buy it, but is this something that he buys often? How often does he buy it? And what frequency is he going to the store to get it? There's a lot of issues here regarding the consumption of this cough medicine and over what period of time that he actually consumes it. But again, if he was using it recreationally, that's going to be a real problem. You know, when you were talking about the red stains on the sheets, actually, that could also be the cough medicine itself, not only blood. So there's still a lot. Is Coruscating red the coruscating itself is not red but depending on how the dye that you use in the syrup it could

be red so that's you know something as well um he stabbed her in the bed it's blood well more likely than not it's blood obviously back to the facts let's see i was thinking about the oh yes oh yes course in cough medicine bp as in blood pressure what is that and what if any is the significance of the bp it would obviously be medicine for people who have high blood pressure because there are certain ingredients in cough medicines or cold medicines that, for example, one that I won't say because I know you're going to give me a hard time about it. No, go ahead, please. For example, things like phenylpropanolamine and other chemicals with names like that that can affect blood pressure uh so it's probably a cough medicine

designed to people who have hypertension so that doesn't affect their blood pressure um question to you dr daniel bober to be a psychiatrist you've got to be an md and then more school for psychiatry yeah you have to go to medical school before you're a psychiatrist, correct. Okay, so what effect, let me start with the body. What effect would a bottle of this stuff do? What would it do to you? Well, this drug is also related to drugs like ketamine and PCP. It affects something called the glutamate system,

and it causes a dissociative effect dissociative or out-of-body experience where you actually become disconnected from your thoughts and from your emotions so you're sort of floating in space so to speak that's the kind of effect that it would have and that's the kind of effect that you mean you float to the kitchen and get a butcher knife in your brain not in reality uh-huh uh-huh okay you know joseph scott morgan i mean really have you listened to the 911 call did you listen when i was playing it just got or are you tapping away on your ipad or something i had a dream and my wife is dead you know the only other people that say that were OJ Simpson. He had a dream.

Remember that he killed Nicole Brown? Whoopsie. It was true. And then Amanda Knox from, you know, her trip in Italy says, I had a dream and I was covering my ears. I heard my roommate screaming in the next room. Well, of course, she was finally exonerated on appeal but when people begin having clairvoyant type dreams and there happens to be a dead body in the same house with them that gives me very nervous joseph scott morgan yeah i'm i'm uh you know i'm a science guy i'm not interested in

dreams i'm interested in reality and reality here is that also in this call, he alluded to the fact that there was blood. He alluded to the fact that he apparently had done this, that she didn't deserve this. I've got to commend the police here. You know what one of the most impressive things about this whole case to me is? It's the fact that when you see his intake photo, Nancy, he has what appears to be dry blood on his face. And that gives me an indication that the police did not allow him to clean himself up, which is key in any kind of case like this, because this demonstrates connectivity. They can demonstrate that he has what appears to be dried blood on his face. And I think that that is

profound in this case. Also, if we can tie that blood back on his face and also relative to the sheets, if that is blood, which they will do several tests in order to determine that, that's going to be a major key in this case. Well, I mean, I'm telling you right now, it's her blood. Of course it's her blood. So everything's covered in blood. He's covered in blood. Obviously, it was slingback from when he's lifting the knife to stab her repeatedly as she's bound to have been fighting for her life. I mean, I can tell you that.

How does that help me prove a murder? Well, I can tell you this. We can that help me prove a murder? Well, I can tell you this. We can say that it's blood all we want to. But from a scientific standpoint, I want it proved. Because I want this to be an airtight case. And to demonstrate this. I know. I know.

Just take the next step with me, Joe Scott Morgan. Don't get me started. All right? I've already got Bober on here. But tell me, Joe Scott, just go with me on this. Let's just pretend. Okay. Let's take a tiny baby step and rationality. Of course it's her blood. I can already prove a murder case. How does that help me prove it even more? Are you saying he should have woken up out of his dream? What are you trying to say?

Whether or not he would have woken up, but i can say that he had some kind of recognition because he admitted this on the on the 9-11 tape that he said that he was apparently involved in this now this is going to be more in the psychiatrist realm but i don't know how they're going to explain this away what we can tie back is can we put that knife in his hand and demonstrate that he is actually facilitating this death? I think that they're going to be able to do. Again, this goes to connectivity between him, the knife, and the defects in her body, which apparently appear to be multiple. Ashley Wilcott, help me please. You know what? Throw me a life raft here. I'm floating in a sea of speculation from joe scott

morgan and dr daniel bober the forensic psychiatrist you know the reality is there's two of them in the home she's stabbed dead he's covered in blood and he says wow i was high on coruscant i heard it makes you feel good. I can't believe I did this. Yep. It is murder. And I'm missing something here. I don't think so. And I mean, Ashley, when you do a demo, a demonstration in front of a jury, and you

show the velocity needed to stab her repeatedly over and over and over where blood's going anywhere, she's struggling, she gets out of the bed, she tries to get away, that didn't wake him up. Right really think it is murder i do and if he had this cold medicine in a system this is a violent violent act and i think he did it and then felt remorseful and said uh-oh what can i say oh that's right i take this cold medicine. I think he knew he was doing it. I do think they can prove murder in this case. You know what's interesting, Ashley Wilcott?

You're married. You've got children. I think you'll know what I'm talking about. So he's got a Bible degree. He could be a pastor. He's doing yards. She's trying to work from home. You know, the most dangerous time for a woman in a relationship is if she tries to leave.

Who's not to say, now this is speculation, that that night she's like, listen, you know what? I'm tired of footing your bills. Let's take a little break for a minute. And let's take a separation. You know, that is the most dangerous time for a woman. That's when most domestic homicides occur. Right? Am I right? Yeah, I agree.

And I think... I don't know that because in her video that she posted just that night trying to sell candles from her own business just trying to make money any way she could she looked I've watched it a hundred times she looks happy in her in her life but that that means nothing Ashley that doesn't mean anything that she looked happy on a video no and he could be under a lot of stress because of the financial needs of the family. And right, all of those things are true. And who knows what could have triggered him any conversation she might have had speculation again, like you said, about separating about the finances, about the condition of their marriage, about the state of their affairs, any of those things could have triggered him to react this violently. And they're fairly young. I mean, they've been married less

than a year. Maybe one morning she woke up and found out it ain't all that and a bag of chips. And she's like, whoa, wait a minute. This is not what I signed up for. Another thing to Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, this stuff, I mean, here's the deal. You don't need a dope dealer. You can just go to Walgreens and get Coricidin because it tastes like

candy, Dr. Daniel Bober. It tastes like candy. It's true, Nancy. I mean, people, it just amazes me as a physician, as an addict. Wait a minute. You're not going to argue with me that it tastes like candy. You're not going to say something like, well, you know, I can't say myself that it tastes like, it tastes like candy. You can make it taste like anything you want, Nancy. You can put anything, any flavoring you want. But the point is, is that it amazes me that people will find

anything to abuse, whether it's Benadryl, whether it's Coricidin and it's, you know, it's, or Sudafed, it's right on your shelf. Like you said, you don't need a dope dealer. You don't need to go into a back alley. You can just go into a Walgreens or a CVS that's right there. To Dave Mack, has he been formally charged? Phelps was charged with murder. He's being held at the Wake County Jail without bail and facing life in prison or even the death penalty. We have our eye on a Raleigh, North Carolina courtroom waiting for the latest.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. In need of great talent for your business but short on time like all of us? Well, you don't have to get lost in a huge stack of resumes to find the perfect hire. You just need the right tools, smarter tools. I'm talking about ZipRecruiter. With ZipRecruiter, you can post your job to over 100 of the web's leading job boards with one click and rest easy knowing your job is being seen by the right candidates. Then ZipRecruiter puts its smart

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