Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - NFL heiress glass purse attack on stranger and New Year’s Eve teen murder rampage

Episode Date: January 8, 2018

The daughter of former Washington Redskins owner Jack Kent Cooke allegedly spewed antisemitic insults as she attacked a man on a New York sidewalk with her glass purse. Jacqueline Kent Cooke faces a charge of suspicion of assault, which the prosecutor says could be elevated to a hate crime. Nancy Grace discuss the case with psychologist Caryn Stark, forensics expert Joe Scott Morgan, and reporter Bobbi Maxwell,  Grace next turns to two New Years gun attacks, including a son who allegedly massacred much of his family and a pregnant teen accused of shooting her boyfriend. She is joined by journalist Jane Velez-Mitchell, psychologist Dr. Pat Saunders, private investigator Vincent Hill, and reporter Larry Meagher. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Are you kidding me? No. What are you doing? Call the cops. Can you imagine the scene when I look at these photos after an allegedly drunken night out at one of New York City's finest restaurants and bars? An heiress, an actual heiress. Yes, they still exist to an nfl empire apparently gets into a drunken brawl you remember cinderella had the glass slipper well this one has a glass clutch it's it's like a little those little opera pocketbooks the little fancy pocketbook you take with you to parties and events she has one made of glass i've actually managed to find a picture of her at

another event holding the glass clutch and allegedly amidst a stream of anti-semitic slurs she cracks a guy over the head with a glass clutch what the hay there's photos of the alleged victim with blood streaming down his face and then she hightails it you can't see anything from her but elbows and tail hole that's right gone i'm nancy grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us you know it's not about the whop on the head true it was with a glass object although it be a fancy 300 pocketbook um it's not about that it's about poor man and rich man justice that's what it's about. Will she get away with cracking somebody on the head, blood streaming down their head,

anti-Jewish slurs, hate talk, and then elbows and tail hole down the street? What's going to happen? Thank you for being with us.

Joining me out of New York, veteran psychologist Karen Stark. Also with me, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, professor at Jacksonville State University. And reporting today, Bobby Maxwell, Crime Stories investigative reporter. And of course with me, Alan Duke and Jackie Howard here in the studio. First to you, Bobby Maxwell. Let's start at the beginning. Leave no detail out. Tell me the whole thing.

I've got to hear the whole thing. Well, Nancy, Jacqueline Kent Cooke, as you mentioned, the socialite, the football heiress, 29 years old, was with her boyfriend. Wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on. Let me dissect every sentence, every word. The football heiress. Now, isn't it true that her grandfather was an owner of the Washington Redskins? Is that correct?

Her father. Actually, she's the daughter of the late Jack Kent Cook. Her dad had ownership stakes in the Washington Redskins, the L.A. Lakers, and the L.A. Kings. Not just the Redskins, but the Lakers and the Kings. Okay, we're talking about a lot of money, okay? All right, go ahead. Let's just start with that. Now, she's with her boyfriend, right?

Is that what you said? Yes. She's with her boyfriend in a very nice Upper East Side Italian restaurant in New York City, Caravaggio. Okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Sorry. Sorry about this, Bobbi.

Karen Stark, you and I know what the Upper East Side means. Okay. It's like the Upper West Side. And I know that restaurant very well. It's like looking right on the West, Upper West, you're looking down directly on Central Park. And those apartments go for, you know, $10, $15, $20 million for a two- or three-bedroom apartment. In New York, you buy your apartment or rent now on the upper east side which is really an enclave of the wealthy you know um my place is slumming it totally and but the upper east side

that ain't shabby karen start what about this restaurant i believe i know exactly which one it is it's right near fifth avenue and um it's well that says it all right there on the avenue fifth avenue there's a song about it the easter parade remember yeah fifth avenue is like the height of luxury okay go ahead and it just is a place where everyone is seen and there to be seen in addition to the terrific food. You mean like, is it like Elaine's? Well, not quite, but yes, because it's an upscale restaurant and people know about it and the food is good just tell me how much is a plate of pasta at this place 30 bucks at least nancy you know you can get a box of spaghetti for 99 cents did you know that i'm just putting it out there okay but not at caravaggio not at caravaggio

you sound so valley girl like all up in your fancy New York apartment. Oh, yeah. Okay, back to Bobby Maxwell. I've set the scene. I'm at Caravaggio. Okay, go ahead. And they finished their dinner, Jacqueline and her boyfriend. I'd really like to know what they had.

I would, too. But I know that that's getting crazy. But when I was prosecuting cases, I would absolutely get the receipt because I want to know. And I want to tell that jury what they had for their appetizer, how many drinks, which is very important in this case that they had. What was their entree? Did they share a dessert? Did they have an after dinner coffee, you know, spiked with booze? I need to hear the whole thing.

I want to know if their dinner was nine hundred dollars i want to know but anyway go ahead i'll get off the food for a moment go ahead i guess everybody can tell i'm back on weight watchers go ahead i only want to think about what other people are eating go ahead bobby they proceeded to the uh the coat check uh nancy where they were in line behind a family and um maybe taking a little bit too long for her good and allegedly said to the 77 year old woman who was getting her coat hurry up jew okay wait wait wait wait wait wait a minute i don't take very kindly to that. My paternal, my dad's grandmother, Anna Pearl Judah. I'm not taking very kindly to this at all.

What now? The coat check. Everybody's getting their coat. And what happened? They were apparently taking too long for Jacqueline's mind. And she proceeded to say to the 77-year-old woman, hurry up, Jew. And when another... Let me just let that sink in for just one moment. You know, Karen Stark, I specifically want you to weigh in on that. It's just, well of course i'm jewish so it's very painful but any kind of hate crime nancy is just tiny heinous it's just i can't believe that somebody in this day and age even

though she may be thinking it would actually come out and say something like that and it didn't stop and to an a senior to a senior lady who's standing there trying to get her little coat to get outside. If someone had said something like that to my mother, I am telling you, Karen Stark, they would have got a knuckle sandwich, no mayo. I'm not kidding. Well, you know, Nancy, when people drink that much, when they drink that much, you know, so their inhibitions are loosened. And this alcohol is not a defense. Voluntary. How many times have I screamed that at you over the last since 19 whenever 97 when we started.

Forever and forever. But I'm not saying it as a defense. All I'm saying is that what's really there. It's like Mel Gibson. Right. It comes out. And it's vicious. Oh, speaking of Mel Gibson, right? It comes out and it's vicious. Oh, speaking of Mel Gibson,

take a listen to this. You know, but they're too big and they look stupid. They look like some Vegas b****. They look like Vegas h***. And you go around sashaying around in your tight clothes and stuff. I won't stand for that anymore. I don't walk around in tight clothes.

I stay at home for most of the time. You look like a public and it's a f***ing basement to me. You look like a f***ing b**** on heat. And if you get raped by a pack of n****s, it's your fault. Alright? Because you provoked it. You are provocatively dressed all the time with your fake boobs. You feel you have to show off in tight outfits and tight pants and stuff. You see your p*** behind.

And that green thing today was enough. I'm telling you. I'm just telling you the truth. I don't like it. I don't want that woman. I don't want you. Off Mel Gibson and back to Manhattan and the expensive Italian restaurant they were at, then what happens to Bobby Maxwell? Well, one of the members of the party then said, what did you say?

And Jacqueline Kent Cook responded, I said, hurry up, Jew, we've got places to go. And the woman responded to her, we've all got places to go, and they had a few choice words. Well, that's interesting right there, Bobby Maxwell, that she didn't respond with a response slur. You know, like, you know, she just, the elderly lady just said, well, we all have places to go, and totally ignored the fact that this young lady,

well, excuse me, this young woman, um, had tried to hurl a Jewish slur. I mean, Joe Scott Morgan, I know you're a forensics expert,

but I believe you and I, uh, are very familiar with the fact that the Israelites, Hebrews, Jews have been mistreated since I can remember all the way back to Moses demanding, let my people go. Remember, it goes all the way back that they have been tortured and mistreated. Way back. Way back, Nancy.

And, you know, quote my grandmother. My grandmother always said, you must be kind to the Jewish people because they are the children of God. Now, whether or not, you know, you lean in a religious way or not, I've always adhered to that. And plus, it's just a fact that you just want to be kind, kind to people simply out of, for humanity's sake. It's a small planet. We have to get along. Let me tell you something, Joseph Scott Morgan. What's that? It goes down from there.

Go ahead, Bobby Maxwell. So the old lady's getting her coat. I mean, how cold is it? You know, 20 degrees, 18 degrees. She's getting her coat. They're at the hat check. And then what happens? And then that confrontation happened, and a few words were said.

It moves outside where the— With an old lady? She didn't go out. Her father, or her son, rather, went outside. Well, thank goodness her son stood up for his mom. All right, so now it's out on the street. Okay, and here are all these rich people out fighting in the street. Okay, and apparently—go ahead. I can just see the fur flying right now.

Well, he was very calm about it. Well, as calm as calm could be in that kind of situation, because he said, why would you say that to my family? Again, he wasn't saying he wasn't mentioning any slurs or anything at the time. He just asked why she would do that to a 77-year-old woman. And at that point is when the actual crime was committed because Jacqueline Kent Cooke smashed her designer purse, her glass designer purse, into Haberkorn, the victim's head. Mm, mm. OK.

Wait, just so happened, believe it or not, have the video Stop it. You can't call me on the phone. Call the cops. Okay, call the cops. Okay. Call the cops. You don't touch him. Go away, let's all go away. Come here, come here. Stop, stop, stop. Come here. Stop.

Stop. What are you doing? Stop. What are you doing? Whoa, whoa. Dude, shoot the. Are you kidding me? No, what are you doing?

Call the cops. Call the cops right now. Jesus Christ. I'm calling them. Stop. Stop. Dad, stop. Stop.

Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.

Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.

Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Well, apparently you don't want to get in between a rich drunk lady and her $300 glass purse. I want to pause and thank our partners that are making today's Serious Sex M132 program possible. It's super beats. It's all about energy. Wouldn't it be great to have all the energy you want all day long? Well, that is not going to happen, okay?

I know that. You know I get up between 5 o'clock and 6 o'clock every morning. I still can't get everything done. Fatigue gets in the way, even sometimes for everyday activities. And you know it's true. It gets worse every year. I see my 10-year-olds running around, and it takes all I can do to keep up with them. And this is why. When you're 20, your body has a natural ability to maintain healthy circulation.

But that ability decreases by half by the time you're 40. You feel tired. I know I do. So what can you do to increase a youthful, natural circulation and fight fatigue? Here's your answer. Drink Super Beats. Super Beats actually promotes the body's own natural ability to produce healthier circulation for increased energy and stamina all day. Super Beats, made from beets grown to exacting standards and then concentrated into super food crystals. If you want to increase your own natural energy, call 800-516-0683 or go to nancysbeets.com.

With your first order, listen to this, you get an extra 30 days of Super Beets free, plus these indicator strips to show how Super Beets is working for you and free shipping. Call 800-516-0683 or go to nancy'sbeats.com today nancy'sbeats.com today super beats thank you for being our partner today on Sirius XM 132 after a an allegedly drunken night out at one of New York City's finest restaurant and bars, an heiress to an NFL empire, apparently gets into a drunken brawl, allegedly amidst a stream of anti-Semitic slurs. What happened then, Bobby Maxwell?

I mean, I just heard a lot of cursing and bleeps. And I see her, the heiress, the NFL heiress, getting up off the ground and running and screaming something about self-defense as the guy is, you know, now sitting on the sidewalk with blood gushing from his head. Yeah, you know, according to the video, which was taken by the victim's daughter, and it's a good thing there was because it's clear that she's trying to pull the victim down on her and her boyfriend's then yelling, you know, things like it was his fault that she fell and hit her, look like she was hit her head against the car. So they were trying to turn this whole situation around on the Haberkorn family well it didn't help any that the woman uh states that she wasn't even out on New Year's Eve that she had a splint

on her feet the splint on her finger was the result of slamming her hand in a cab door now that's quite the coinkydink that she's on this video on New Year's Eve. I mean, even I, a thousand miles away, can tell it's her. And she also happens to have her finger in a splint. You know what's interesting, Joseph Scott Morgan, about this is that she's obviously a millionaire. And I'm wondering if she's going to skate off scot-free for this. But in your line of work, to slam somebody over the head with glass, you can kill someone that way. Yeah, yeah, you can. And in addition to that, looking at the photos from this, it's rather horrific. This pocketbook that you had mentioned, I'd been looking at it last night.

It's got very, very tight angles on the edges. And she would have generated what's referred to as blunt force trauma. And if this thing is, in fact, made out of glass, which it looks to be, if it's shattered, you can get a little satellite injuries as well. And this guy's got quite a bit of blood that's coming off of the crown of his head. So she split his head open pretty well. I'd be interested in how many stitches he had. One more thing. You know, money obviously can't buy good manners, that's for sure. You stole the banner of my Crime Online article, Money Can't Buy Class. Truer words were never spoken. Now, let's move forward. Bobby Maxwell is telling us, and immediately the finger-pointing starts,

and she, the NFL heiress, begins to blame the alleged victim in this case, Karen Stark. Why is that? And claiming she wasn't there. She's on video, Karen. She's being defensive, Nancy. You know, she's saying I wasn't there and she's trying to deny that it really happened or that she objectified someone and used anti-Semitic slurs. You know, she's just defending against the accusation but and even though it's on even though it's on video and that's that's called denial remember she was of course released on her own recognizant on thursday she's due back in court with an order of protection in place requiring her to stay away from her alleged victim now Now, again, this is the daughter of Jack Kent Cook,

who had ownership in the Washington Redskins, the L.A. Lakers, and the L.A. Kings. I'm looking at her now as she's been described as emotionless in Manhattan criminal court in the last hours after having been arrested for allegedly assaulting this lawyer. Now, she was not, of course, charged with hate talk on his 77-year-old mother, but she stands accused of attacking Matthew Haberkorn outside a Manhattan restaurant Caravaggio. The lawyer, who lives with his family in redwood city claims all the trouble started when his mother was getting her coat after their meal um it went on and on and he confronted her about what she had said to his mom outside the restaurant and that is when she allegedly bashes him in the head

with a mirrored lulu guinness clutch okay now this is all according to the nypd boy what a mouthful she gave him you call me effing you called me an effing b you call me a c cook can be heard shouting all this in the video let's talk about her in court okay this is after all the blood after all the arrest she appears in court what happened in court to bobby maxwell Crime Stories investigative reporter. What happened? Well, she was very, as you said, very calm about it and claimed that he was the one that went to her. He was the one that started the altercation. She looks extremely emotionless. What does that mean, Karen Starr?

You're the shrink. Well, that kind of a flat affect means that she's, whatever is going on with her, I'm imagining that this is how she comes across that you know she internalizes it maybe that's why if she drinks too much it all comes out so she's keeping her face very neutral and not allowing anyone to know that she has any kind of an emotional response to this at the time of her father's death she was left with a five million dollar trust at age 21 payments go went to 100 000 at 35 she receives annual sums of eight

percent of the trust currently valued at over six million million. Well, of course, they're all suing each other over the money. But in court, she denied, apparently, and told police this was not her fault. When she was stopped by the police after leaving a diner without paying her bill once, according to Boston.com, she started her car despite cops yelling at her not to turn on the vehicle. Prior to getting in the car, because she couldn't find a taxi, Cook, quote, stepped into the street,

lifted her skirt, and exposed her rear end to the cops. When being booked on that incident, she asked everyone, do they know who her father was, and threatened to have their badges stripped, stating, one billion dollars goes a long way.

I mean, you know, Joe Scott, how many times have I heard, I'll have your badge for this. Joe Scott, it many times have I heard, I'll have your badge for this? So, Scott, it typically never works. Yeah, yeah. You know, people say, you don't know who I know. Well, you know, for the average police officer, the average police officer is bringing home, you know, maybe $45,000 per year. I can tell you they probably don't know who she knows

but one thing that they do know is that they know a jerk when they come across one because and this is this is repeated over and over and over again this goes to a bigger issue in our society Nancy you know you look at everything that's going on in entertainment and media and all these other places where people think that they can just because they have power and they have money they can just run over anybody that they want to sometimes the chickens come home to roost and in this in this case i hope that they make an example out of her well as everybody's sitting down for this one you might need to lay down because now now the millionaire heiress Jacqueline Kent Cook is cross-suing she's actually suing the alleged victim and in court held up her swollen right ring finger as her lawyer said the digit was broken

in the quote scuffle she has actually filed a cross complaint against the man she allegedly bashed in the head with a 300 glass clutch um the lawyer also claimed she did not make an anti-semitic remark and was only defending herself when haber corn pursued her outside okay now who are we going to believe in court as i always tell juries joe scott morgan you are the sole judge of credibility not me not the judge not the defense you you the jury have to decide who's telling the truth who are you going to believe her who according to boston.com lifted her skirt and shot a moon at the cops and threatened to take their badges, or a 77-year-old lady trying to get her hat and coat at the check, that coat check.

You know, it's going to clearly be a he say, she say, but only one person ended up bloody and bashed in the head, Joe Scott. You can't argue about that. No, no, you can't. And at the end of the day, when this thing's finally litigated, if it goes into a civil venue, which, you know, I don't know how far the DA will take this from a criminal perspective, but from a civil venue, it all comes, you know, who's got the largest purse here? No pun intended. Who's got the most money? Who can, you know, kind of make

this? And it's interesting that she would counter-sue these people as a result of this. Her poor little finger got broken. We'll prove that it got broken. And they'll parade experts up there and say that, oh, no, it was in fact broken. And it's ridiculous to this point. What you have here is just at the end of the day, you have somebody that has no manners, does not respect other people, and has probably always gotten her way. Thomas said she also went to confront Cook, and the socialite told her, why don't you use your money to get a nose job? Okay, Karen Stark, yet another attack, a verbal attack? And again, there's anti-Semitism involved in that slur.

And from what I was reading, that her boyfriend also said to the daughters that were there of this gentleman, happy bat mitzvah. Okay. Out of nowhere. You know, I don't get the hatred, but what I'm concerned, I can't cure that. But in court, I know that prosecutors can send this woman to jail. I want to pause and thank our partners right now,

in addition to you guys joining us across the airwaves and my awesome guest joining me today, LegalZoom. What will your story be in 2018? Now the holiday rushes over, LegalZoom can help you make this a memorable year before all the distractions take hold. Make this the year you finally get serious about launching and running your own business. Rest easier knowing your family's future squared away with the right estate plan. LegalZoom's been helping people like us take care of dreams and responsibilities over 16 years. They're not a law firm, but they've got the resources to keep you on the right path,

including advice from a nationwide network of independent lawyers all at your fingertips. Whether you want to take your business to the next level or take control of your family's future with an estate plan, LegalZoom plugs right into your life so you can take care of things that matter most. Get off to a strong start in 2018 at LegalZoom.com. Do it today and get special savings when you enter N-A-N-C-Y, code Nancy, in the promo box at checkout. LegalZoom, where life meets legal. LegalZoom, thank you. Just before midnight, neighbors down the street heard gunshots i heard pop pop pop pop pop looked outside before you know a cop down here caught down there

lined up around the street spoke you know always smiling you know not a violent kid or anything like that i woke up and i thought it was fireworks but thinking about it i don't think i heard fireworks that me up i think it was gunshots that woke me up. A New Year's Eve teen murder rampage. What? Okay, you know, when I was still a teen, we lived out in the middle of nowhere. And for our excitement, since there was nowhere to go and nothing to do, we would go on the front porch and beat pots and pans to beat away the old year and throw pennies out to welcome the new year.

And my poor children are now being subjected to the same ritual. Because, you know, I couldn't drive at 13, 14, 15. I had nowhere to go. Okay. My parents didn't drink. So there was, although my father was not afraid of a cocktail, don't tell my mom. But, I mean they would stay in with us there was nowhere to go with nothing to do so we had to make our own

excitement okay we only got one channel there was no New Year's Eve ball dropping excitement going on but how did this suddenly turn into New Year's Eve teen murder rampage i'm focusing right now along my all-star panel on two teens one that kills and murders his family and the other that murders her boyfriend and robs him what i mean larry mayher is joining me, Crime Stories contributing reporter, about the New Year's Eve teen murder massacre. Let's start with the young man, a teen boy that is referred to as, quote, a nice kid by everybody that knows him that wipes out his family on New Year's Eve. What happened, Larry? Well, according to police in Long Branch, New Jersey, the 16-year-old took a semi-automatic assault-style rifle and opened fire inside their house, inside the family home.

Stop right there. Okay. Sorry, sorry. Now, Alan can tell you it's very hard for me to let a man specifically get a whole sentence in, but wait a minute. Did you just say a 16-year-old has an assault rifle? How did that happen? Let's just start with that, okay?

How did he get an assault rifle? How did that happen? Let's just start with that, okay? How did he get an assault rifle? Police say he had access to it because it was the legal weapon of someone in his family. Okay, go ahead. In the home. Okay. According to police, he used the assault rifle to kill his father, his mother, his sister, and a family friend, two other members of the family, and a third person who was also a family friend managed to get out of the house while the shooting was underway. This all happened just minutes before midnight on the night of New Year's Eve. I just don't understand

it. I don't understand it. So that's a total. We'll see the parents, the friend, two other members of the family. How many people in all did he murder? Four people were killed. Three people escaped. Good. Crazy. This teen boy guns down his family just moments before the ball drops before midnight is struck to ashley wilcott lawyer and child advocate he's 16 years old but murder much less mass murder

which equals more than one body i mean two bodies and you're into statutory mass murder. That is one of the seven deadlies, or as we call them, the designated felonies by which you are almost automatically bound over to be treated as an adult. Let me see if I can remember them. There's murder, rape, aggravated assault, armed robbery, arson, a missing two, let's see here here would it be child molestation i'm missing one what could it be what's this what ashley i couldn't remember if manslaughter was one or not of the seven deadly i'm missing one of the seven designated seven deadlies anyway i know this is one of them now how does it work it work, Ashley, when a teen boy

commits one of the designated felonies under which you get tried as an adult? It's called a bind over process. That's right. So the prosecutor can determine whether or not they want to ask that the child be treated as an adult in the adult criminal system or be allowed to be charged as a juvenile in the juvenile court system for delinquent acts. And honestly, with murder charges, I have never seen a child not treated as an adult in the criminal system. Even if the child has special needs, frequently, most likely, they are going to charge that child as an adult. It's murder. In this case, there are extenuating circumstances that will be to the boys' benefit. His name is Scott Kologi, and he's referred to by everyone that knew him prior to this

as a, quote, nice kid. He is autistic. Is he not, Jane Velez Mitchell? Yes, he had learning disabilities, and for a time, Nancy, he was homeschooled. So here you have a 16-year-old with learning disabilities who may be struggling. Apparently, he was teased at school, translate bullied at school. And he has an older sister who was absolutely stunning. And you can just tell she's very popular just by looking at her. She looks like something out of a cheerleading movie. And so he's at home with his mother, who is his mother and his teacher, in a sense, because he was being homeschooled for a time. And, you know, 16 is a very turbulent time.

The hormones, the sense of rebellion. And then you add in a semi-automatic assault rifle, a line around the house, it's a prescription for disaster. And that's exactly what happened. Let me go to Dr. Patricia Saunders, psychologist. I would need to know, I guess, his level of functioning. I mean, I've seen a photo of him in a graduation cap and gown, I would need to know what level,

where he was under the spectrum, the umbrella of autism. Was it a mild case of Asperger's or was it profoundly autistic? What difference would that make, Dr. Patricia Saunders? That's a great point. There's a world of difference between mild Asperger's and a fully autistic adolescent. The fully autistic adolescent is pretty much out

of touch with reality and only responds to their inner stimuli and trying to suppress their feelings of anxiety and anger. High-functioning Asperger's is often kids who do reasonably well in school. They have a lot of problems socially. They tend not to have friends. They tend to be isolated because they don't have the social skills, and they can't read cues from other people. What they both have in common is problems with impulse control. So you take the brew that Jane described about adolescence before, and you've got a potential for dynamite. Just wonder how it will factor in Ashley Wolcott, lawyer and child advocate and founder of

childcrimewatch.com on Facebook. Ashley, how will this factor into the decision as to whether this teen boy is going to be treated as an adult? Now, remember if he's treated as an adult, he's sentenced as an adult, but he is kept in a juvenile facility until he's 21. That's right. So keep in mind that the whole goal and aim of juvenile court dealing with children is rehabilitation.

So it's not punitive in nature. It's not intended to be punitive in nature and penalize the child for committing a crime. Instead, it is meant to be rehabilitative. What does it mean in terms of what services are available to help treat this child with his specific special needs and perhaps rehabilitate? Having said that, he'll remain in jail. And so it does depend what is the adult system offer versus the juvenile system offer in that particular state. Vincent Hill, private investigator, I mean, to have the intent to go get a semi-automatic assault rifle, point it, mow down your family, wound others. That is a specific intent, Vincent. Yeah, Nancy, it's very specific. And we're talking four victims and possibly two others that escaped the residence. So you may be able to argue one shot to one family member was impulsive, but at some point, I'm sure prosecutors are going to

argue that he had every opportunity to stop what he was doing because he killed four of his family, well, three family members and a close friend to the family. So the intent was definitely there to do exactly what he did. And it was very tragic, especially the way it ended the year for the family. Well, this is what we know. The very latest is that the judge has ordered the Kaloge case in the Long Beach shootings to remain closed. That's in Monmouth county new jersey this is what we know right now regarding a teen that goes on a new year's eve murder rampage and wipes out his family but to his defense if you look at what his brother writes his own brother his heartbroken brother of this new jersey teen who allegedly shoots and kills his parents sister and family friend in a new year's eve massacre wrote a heartbreaking social media

message to honor them kalogi's little brother scott has been accused of opening fire on his family just before the new year was ushered in the brother says quote give the ones you love an extra kiss or tell them i love you oh, man. I'm moving now from that to our next New Year's Eve teen murder massacre and the case of a girl, Yvonne Ramirez, who murders and robs her boyfriend just before the ball drops. Larry Mayher, Crime Stories investigative reporter. What happened? This is also a tangled case in that Yvonne Raquel Ramirez has told two vastly different stories about what happened to her boyfriend, Josh McKinney. We know that it took place at a place called Bayport, Texas, which is part of the Port of Houston. It's an industrial area.

It took place on a street at about 4.30 in the morning. A witness reported seeing McKinney, the boyfriend, holding Ramirez, the girlfriend, in a headlock with a gun pointed at her head, and then a few minutes later, hearing gunshots. And McKinney was killed by the gunshots. Ramirez told police initially that he dropped his gun. It went off and shot him. Then she said they were in a struggle and he had the gun pointed at her. She managed to take a different gun away from him and shoot him with it in self defense. This is all compounded by what process. Okay, now wait, that's one story. What's the other story? The other story is this was a

robbery attempt that Ramirez had told McKinney she had stolen his gun collection and wanted $2,000 to get it back. And then the altercation erupted on the street, and he ended up dead. The two very different stories make it a little difficult for investigators to sort out what happened. They have one eyewitness. Excuse me, excuse me. I'm just staring right now at the photo of the defendant this teen girl with the two uh tongue piercings um it's strategically located across the tattoos on her chest which end in a rose between her breasts okay um not judging not judging it's going to take all i can do ashley wilcott i don't even argue with the twins when they do this or that wrong i'm saving that for um smoking drugs alcohol and tattoos okay i'm

saving all my fighting for that okay ashley do you see these photos of the of the alleged killer she's beautiful look at her she's a gorgeous she's beautiful she's beautiful she looks like she looks like a model would hang out with when they're older right oh no not exactly but um i will say that she's physically beautiful which apparently is very deceiving now larry mayher has told us there's two sides to this, Jane Velez Mitchell. What's the other side? Well, I think this is a case of two young people. First of all, there were drugs involved. She told investigators that they were getting high together. It's 4.30 in the morning, so nobody should be out or, as somebody said, what happens after midnight on the street is never good. Wait a minute, wait a minute. You've totally twisted what I told juries.

You stole that from me, Jane Velez. I'm calling you out. That's felony theft. That's grand larceny. What I would tell juries is nothing good happens after midnight, and you've totally bastardized it. I don't know what you just said, but can you at least go back to the pure quote,

nothing good happens after midnight. Did you say this was at 4.30 in the morning? Yes. And there was a struggle on the street involving guns. So you have a young woman who is obviously up to no good. Either way, her scheme is somehow not just getting together with a young man to have a good time. There's a plot there. And apparently she was demanding $2,000 from this young man to get if he wanted to get his guns back. And so that's when the encounter turned very violent. And he had put her Yeah, he put her in a headlock blah blah that's what she's saying dr patricia saunders have you ever noticed that you can have a perfectly nice person and then they get tangled up with the wrong man or woman and everything goes sideways i mean this kid that

was killed this boy um had already planned to join the marines after graduating from college uh somebody says quote he's such a sweet guy and so well-mannered always saying thank you and please he was such a nice boy now that's one quote about him i'm trying to reconcile that with some photos he's posted online and this girl that he took up with. What do you think, Pat Saunders, can it be you're this great person and then you get poisoned by somebody else? No, he had to have been complicit in some way. One story that's out there is that they were planning some kind of robbery. So this is really a mess in terms of what really happened. What you said earlier can be, especially for young people and adolescents,

that they get mixed up with the wrong people. I'm no fan of tattoos and piercings myself, Nancy. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. Whoa, right there, Dr. Patricia Saunders correct me if I'm wrong but didn't I run into you on the east side one time and you're with your husband and you had a bunch of dogs you were walking Jane you'll love to hear that and wasn't your husband very heavily tattooed I have a tattoo but it's not okay so back to your husband is it wasn't your husband very heavily tattooed from the military yes okay so now what were you saying about not being a fan of tattoos

well i wasn't saying my husband's tattoos busted i will never forget i will never forget i will never forget when i did dancing with the stars. And you guys all know my executive producer and my bestie, Dean, from HLN, went out to Dancing with the Stars and we were doing our evening show from out there. And everybody on the cast of Dancing with the Stars had a tattoo. One day, he comes and he's got a tattoo. I said, Dean, have you lost your mind? And I forgot what, I just could not, I said, what does that even say? And as I remember, it was some mishmash of like his initials and his wife's initials.

I don't even know what it was, or cross, I don't know what it was. Well, he didn't even tell his wife. Okay. So he goes, flies home. I was out there and I had my husband and my children with me. And so he would fly home and then he would come back, you know, after the weekend, he came back. Of course, his wife was furious. So what did he do? He went out and got another tattoo about like forgiveness and all that. Some quote out of the Bible, some obscure quote. I'm like, you have totally, yeah, he totally had lost his mind. And from now on he wears long sleeves. I mean, so there you go. And Dr. Pat Saunders denying her love for tattoos. can i just ask you if you dare tell me what what is your tattoo i want to know is it like a rose at the bot at your your booty crack no and it would never be that it's a a pegasus on my arm a flying horse okay that's so much classier

okay thank you for letting me have all my fun as we're talking about a massacre. Bottom line, what's going to happen with this girl, Larry Mayher? What's the standing right now? What is she charged with? Is she charged? What's happening? She is charged with murder. She is being held in lieu of $50,000 bail. She's, at last report, in the hospital because during this altercation she was also shot. And so she has been treated for a gunshot wound and is hospitalized at a Houston-Harris County jail. And unlike the shooter in New Jersey, she's an adult. She's 19. The victim was also 19. I can just only imagine what the victim's parents are going through right

now. They probably had no idea what he was out doing at that time. And now, I mean, I don't know what his personality was. I just know he was a young boy, Joshua McKinney, with plans to head into the Marines after college. And now he's dead. Over what? Larry Mayher. Jane Velez Mitchell of janeunchained.com.

Dr. Patricia Saunders, psychologist, joining me from Manhattan. Vincent Hill, renowned private investigator. Ashley Wilcott, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com on Facebook. Alan and Jackie, thank you so much for being with us as we watch these cases unfold. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.