Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - NO REMORSE, STONE-FACED NICK REINER, "SLIT PARENTS' THROATS," ROB, MICHELLE REINER MURDERED

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

Nick Reiner appears in a Los Angeles courthouse on Wednesday for the first time since he is accused of killing his parents, Rob Reiner and Michele Singer Reiner. While in court, Nick Reiner, 32, appears to be wearing an all blue vest. The only words he utters during the brief appearance are, “Yes, your honor.” His arraignment is pushed back till January 7, the second time it was delayed since he was arrested Sunday in his parents' deaths. The Los Angeles County Medical Examiner's Office on Wednesday listed the couple's cause of death as multiple sharp force injuries. Many jump to the conclusion the Reiners were bad parents to their middle child, somehow responsible for their demise at their troubled son's hands. Critics highlight Nick Reiner’s early signs of addiction and meth the teen reportedly entered rehab for around his 15th birthday.  Joining Nancy Grace: Heather Michaels - Reiner family friend and neighbor, Investigative Reporter, Producer and Social Justice Advocate, Instagram: HeatherMichaelsTV, Facebook: HeatherSMichaels Troy Slaten - Los Angeles Criminal Defense Attorney, Slaten Lawyers; Twitter @TroySlaten Caryn Stark -  Forensic Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", Instagram @JoScottForensic Jaclyn Roth - Editor in Chief of OK! Magazine, website: jaclynaroth.wixsite.com/jaclynroth, Instagram & Twitter: JRoth104 Sydney Sumner - Investigative Reporter, ‘Crime Stories’  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. No remorse. No remorse whatsoever. Nick Reiner, stone-faced in court in the last hours, uttering only three words in front of the judge. This as the suspect is facing claims he slit his pants. throats in their sleep.

Rob Reiner, his wife, Michelle Singer-Riner, murdered. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Brutal murder of Hollywood legend, Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle. It was a horrific scene. There was blood everywhere.

Slaughtered in their own home. own home. Swooping in is high-profile lawyer Alan Jackson, who has represented the likes of Karen Reed, Harvey Weinstein, so many others. And this is what he has to say. There are very, very complex and serious issues that are associated with this case. these need to be thoroughly, but very carefully dealt with and examined and looked at and analyzed. This was a continuance of arraignment. Nothing happened today substantively.

We'll be back for an arraignment in the same department on the 7th of January. We'll see you then. I'm going to analyze that. That's from our friends at Fox News. Joining me an all-star panel, he says there are very, very complex, serious issues associated with this case. In other words, how am I going to get paid? And what in the, hey,

am I going to tell a jury? My client was covered in his parents' blood. He acted normally. There goes the mental defense. Those are the complex issues Alan Jackson is thinking about tonight. Very complex, serious issues associated with this case. Those need to be thoroughly, but very carefully dealt with and examined and looked at and analyzed. This was a continuance of an arraignment. Nothing happened today. A lot happened. A lot happened. Joining me, Jacqueline Roth, editor-in-chief OK Magazine. Jacqueline, thank you so much for being with us. Nick Reiner in court, completely stone-faced, no remorse whatsoever. What happened? He only said three words, yes, your honor, which is really

frightening. I mean, you know, he allegedly just killed his parents, and that's all he has to say to everyone out there. It's very, very concerning. And obviously, all the drug stuff that's come out about him and all these things are now catching up with him. We've now seen old videos of him, you know, saying all these things, get me out of jail and bail me out and all this money he's been using from his parents. It's super, super frightening and scary. You know, what was really going on behind the scenes? We have no idea, but obviously something bigger than anyone could have ever imagined. We are talking about the developments in the last hours. Nick Reiner in court making a first appearance. And during that appearance, he doesn't plead guilty. He doesn't plead not guilty. Troy Slayton joining us, high-profile lawyer, out of this jurisdiction, L.A. He's a veteran criminal defense attorney with Slayton lawyers. Troy Slayton, thank you for being with us tonight.

He can't say, not guilty, Your Honor. I mean, why the drama? Why the suspense? Is this somehow just stirring the pot of mental defect on behalf of Nick Reiner, which, of course, is not going to work because voluntary use of drugs and alcohol is not a defense? So why not in reply? Is he pulling a co-burger? Absolutely not, Nancy. This is a very common thing that happens every single day in the criminal courts building in Los Angeles. He waived time for his arraignment. He's entitled to have an arraignment in two days, but people all the time, waive time for arraignment and put it over to another date this way this way his attorney can

when he comes in on january 7th likely declare a doubt as to his competency and in the meantime can have him he could do that now by multiple he's waiting to see if his check clears no he's waiting to see a copy of the discovery the initial packet from the uh from the d a so that way he can start to wrap his head around what type of evidence the government has. Troy, he has to see what the states got on him before he can say, I didn't do this. If he were innocent, wouldn't he say, not guilty? I would never murder my parents. Nancy, there's a strategic reason because once you enter the plea of not guilty, then a certain

timeline starts for a preliminary hearing because then the court starts pressing to have That's on the state. The preliminary hearing beatily. Troy, do not try and mislead the viewers. The timeline that you are talking about, that really means nothing because the defense can ask for delay, delay, delay, delay, and get it. So the only thing that would legally be triggered

is if the defense, oh, I'm hearing a buzzing in my ear, oh, it's Troy Sladen. The only thing that is a firm, deadline is if the defense files a demand for speedy trial. Cases can go years without being tried. So that's not accurate. This is, as you said correctly, a strategic tactic. Absolutely. And it happens every single day in court. This is not a new thing with this case. It happens in criminal cases every single day here in Los Angeles. It's standard operation. It's just strategy. We're being played. We all know we're being played, but that is not going to deter anyone from seeking

justice. Guys, shedding insight on the family dynamic is a very special guest. Now, she is an investigative reporter, and she is a producer and advocate. Heather Michaels is also a Reiner family friend. She is a neighbor. Heather, thank you for being with us. Thank you, Nancy. What do you recall happened following the discovery

of Michelle and Rob's bodies? We all saw this unfold in real time. You know, I, the tragedy of this really is, you know, the main focus and the lives of Rob and Michelle and how wonderful and kind and genuine they were. Nick has struggled with mental health issues. He has struggled with, you know, experimenting with drugs and being on and off met. That's no secret. I think that he also was broken in a lot. of ways. I, like you, am very disturbed by what we saw yesterday unfold and the stone face reaction to the death of his parents, the brutal, alleged murder by him of his parents, of his own parents. It's just, it's heartbreaking. It's just devastating. I'm trying to come from a place of love and empathy, but this is just something that's shocking to the communities, to our families,

to the entertainment world. You know, it just, it's, there really are no words. And I appreciate everything you said because you really nailed it. And that, you know, cannot be ignored either. Heather Michaels is joining us. She is an investigative reporter. She is a producer, an advocate. But tonight she is here as a neighbor and a friend of the Reiner family.

Heather, I had the opportunity, the privilege of getting to meet Rob Reiner. He was so kind to me and he had absolutely no reason he should have been or needed to and actually knew my name. I was stunned and at first when I heard someone say Nancy and I turned around, I actually thought it was Carl Reiner when I looked up at him, but of course that was impossible. And then I realized it was Rob Reiner and was just overwhelmed that someone like him would know someone like me's first name and be familiar with what was happening during Dancing with the Stars. And it struck me how he would be familiar with other people and kind to other people when he really didn't need to. Heather, you mentioned that Nick Reiner, now being held behind bars and the murders of both of his parents, Robin and Michelle,

battle not only drug addiction, but mental health issues. What? I'm not familiar with him ever being diagnosed with a mental health issue other than being whacked out on drugs. So that is the severe underlying issue is, you know, it's a mix of like a bipolar and maybe a small amount of schizophrenia. He struggled with mental health issues most of his life. And unfortunately, you know, this is not uncommon. This is something that it could have been actually one of five families, famous families, that have children with mental health issues and so that is another you know place of where

something needs to be addressed there but this is something that then became such a tragedy and you know for somebody like him to you know just snap like that and then brutally murder your parents when they are sleeping they were sleeping you know this was after that party and you know it's just unthinkable, it's unfathomable. It's very hard for me to take in, Heather. My mom lives with us. She just turned 94 this past weekend, and I go in all during the night to check on her,

and I see her lying there asleep. The thought of taking a knife and slitting her throat is physically repulsive to me. You stated that you believe Nick Ron was bipolar, possibly schizophrenic, do you know he had been diagnosed with that, or is that your educated guess observing him? There was some level of diagnosis, and he was, I would say, a functioning, you know, child with mental health challenges. You know, as you know, there's various levels. So he was functioning, but he struggled with a lot. And, you know, they made some of

these kids may be on some medication for some time. A lot of times they go off the medication and they experiment with various drugs. I'm sure you heard that he was, you know, sort of homeless, you know, various times. He had open access to the home. But sometimes they, you know, these kids that are struggling just end up going on the street. So this is something he had suffered. But Heather, did he have a formal diagnosis? because nowhere in any documents or commentary have I heard he was actually diagnosed

bipolar or diagnosed schizophrenic. I repeatedly am hearing from multiple sources that years and years of drug abuse had left him adult. Yes. That that was a source of his mental health problems. From what I am told, it's a combination. And like I said, he was a functioning individual with mental health challenges. And a lot of times they do then lean on various drugs.

I'm sure you heard the podcast. So there was no formal diagnosis? Did the Reiner's ever share a formal diagnosis? There likely was. This is something that was discussed from time to time, but it was kept private. You know, and like I said, So they told you he was bipolar or schizophrenic? There was discussion of mental health challenges and that that could be an underlying factor.

Okay. So I'm taking that as a no formal diagnosis of bipolar or schizophrenic, but they discussed mental health challenges? Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Okay. When you would observe Nick Reiner, what did you say? Sometimes I would see a, you know, fairly balanced child. But then there were times when some things that he said were just like socially awkward, you know, a little odd. And I've known other families in the industry with children and with mental health. issues and on the higher spectrum. You know, he struggled with those issues and then also

this feeling a little awkward, never really finding his place. You know, but he was, he was talented in some ways and he had the deep love and respect and compassion from Rob and Michelle. You know, they were very supportive of all of their children. He was the one, though, that just was a little less balance than the others. you refer to him as a child he's 32 years old I know a lot of times when there's a mental health aspect like this you know they just don't really evolve

and I it's been so emotional the last couple days they keep playing over and over and over again that podcast that he spoke on and candidly I just feel like that was very telling of his personality at this time and I know that was over 10 years ago but this is a kid I'm gonna keep calling him a kid that is fairly broken but the tragedy of then taking it that much further and whether it was an argument or

what you killed your parents in cold blood he murdered his parents and we allegedly and we can't get past that that is a tragedy all the way around And it's just unfathomable. Joining us is Heather Michaels, not only investigative reporter, producer, but tonight here on behalf of the Reiner family. She is describing Nick Reiner now charged in both of his parents' murders. Let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Why do you like Snapple so much? Mainly because when I'm done drinking it, I can, uh,

go in my room and squirt lotion in it and then use it to stick my . Sometimes I just come out to gather my sick thoughts. You know, we're close to making a deal that will, of course, make him the worldwide star that he deserves to be. 50 million on the line and they were like practically just . Okay, yeah, now I see what you're saying, Heather Michael. about socially awkward statements. Sydney, some are joining us, investigative reporter crime stories.

Sydney, what we were just playing, I believe, was him acting in a different persona? Or was that really him? You know, Nancy, it's a little bit hard to tell. There's not a lot of context associated with this YouTube video. This was posted to Nick Reiner's YouTube in 2016. the title is the David. So I think what's happening here

is that Reiner is portraying a Bubba Gump-esque rapper by that name and this is some kind of skit with his friends. I thought he's maybe making fun of his dad's movie Spinal Tap which was kind of a similar

mockumentary about fake rock stars. Sydney, can I just ask you a very harsh question? Are you just spinning out here? Are you extrapolating? Are you saying you want to believe he's portraying a rapper? Because you want to think that? You don't want to think that Nick Reiner says, I drink Snapple because I go home, I squirt lotion, and stick my in it. Yeah, I don't want to think that either. Well, that might be part of it.

Okay, so you are projecting that nobody in their right mind would say that. Okay, let's take another look at Nick Reiner. Why do you like Snapple so much? Mainly because when I'm done drinking it, I can go in my room and squirt lotion in it and then use it to stick my . Sometimes I just come out to gather my sick thoughts. You know, we're close to making a deal that will of course make him the worldwide star that he deserves to be. 50 million on the line, and they were like practically just all the time. So let me understand under Sidney Sumner's would-be theory that it's just another white boy out of Brentwood living in his dad's multi-million dollar poolhouse portraying a rapper.

Okay, more of Nick Reiner from the horse's mouth. I guess it could have been pretty awkward when PETA approached you about, joining their team. I'm gonna go kill that . You bought heroin off a transvestite? No. You guys aren't lost, are you? No, no.

I have a famous dad and a famous grandpa, and they sort of, you know, that fame sort of informs who you are, so I wanted to etch out my own identity with a more rebellious, angry, drug-addicted sort of persona. What? That's from Inside Out podcast with Paul McCurio. Did I just hear him say? I have a famous dad and a famous grandpa and they, you know, famous informs who you are. Are they, is he blaming his father, Rob Reiner? Heather Michaels is with us, who is not only an investigative reporter and producer, a social justice advocate. You can find her on Insta at Heather Michaels TV. She is a friend of the Reiner family and a neighbor.

It seems to me that Nick Reiner had everything. handed to him, fed with a silver spoon. How many people in this country would give their eye teeth to live in Reiner's poolhouse for Pete's sake? It's just everything to tromp into his gorgeous kitchen and freeload out of the sub-zero. I mean, he had the life. I don't understand his hatred toward his parents. Blaming them for what? You know, there's a lot of theories just in general in the entertainment industry when you have children that are under the, you know, that have famous parents. It's challenging in itself. But this does not reflect on Rob and Michelle because they love their children unconditionally. They led with compassion, genuine intention,

and so supportive of him, you know, it's what you see time and time again. I think that this is just a child, I'm going to say a child, again, that he struggled with not just the difficulties of, you know, being, having very famous parents, but some of the mental health issues that he struggled with, the drug abuse. that absolutely impacted his personality. You brought heroin off a transvestite? No. You guys aren't lost, are you? No, no. The son of Rob Reiner and wife, Michelle Singer-Riner,

in court wearing a suicide vest, shackled hand and foot, no remorse at all. His high-priced lawyer, Alan Jackson says this case is very complex. He asked for a continuance. He got one, and I'm sure during this time he's going to make sure that check is good. He is a very high-profile lawyer, and he has gotten results, by the way. You saw the Karen Reed trial outcome. He defended Harvey Weinstein is a total

P-O-S. He defended Kevin Spacey and got a good outcome on that. And many, many more. What card is up his sleeve in this case? We are told that Nick Reiner was covered in his parents' blood, had the wherewithal to leave the scene, pack new fresh clothes. Let's see the video of him in a gas station. Goes to a nearby hotel. Not cheap, I might add, pretty nice.

Checks in, uses his own name. There he is in completely clean clothes. He packed fresh nappies Goes in, goes to the Refrigerated area of the store, gets a drink, goes in line, waits patiently, pays for it, seemingly completely in

control. But the hotel finds blood. A trail of blood from the bed across the floor to the shower where he cleaned up, washed his hair, cleaned the blood out from under his fingernails, and went to go get himself a drink.

That video from our friends at CBS news. Good luck arguing mental defect. After that video, he also had the wherewithal to black out the windows of the hotel with sheets. Now, who to thunk? He did. Cunning. Cunning. In the last hours, we also learned the official COD cause of death. Joining us, Jacqueline Roth, editor-in-chief OK magazine. Jacqueline, thank you for being with us tonight. What is the official? cause of death? The official COD is multiple sharp force injuries, aka likely that the knife slit their throat, unfortunately, which is so tragic. He, as you saw in that video, he obviously was looking around, you know, looking kind of, you know, haunted and, you know, it's a very

haunting video in general. But as you said, all his clothes were clean, the hotel afterwards, full of blood, housekeeping, all of that found that, you know, it's, it's unthinkable that he could commit something like that and act totally. I mean, I wouldn't say it was normal, but could act like that after that. Can I see Jacqueline Roth, please? Jacqueline Roth, I'd like you to review the gas station video again. Could I see that control room very quickly? The gas station video, you say he looks haunted.

To me, he looks thirsty. He doesn't look haunted. He's going, looking around, I see no signs of a haunting. He is, there you go, there's that, Diet Dr. Pepper. and he goes and pays for it. How are you divining from the video from our friends that said, and there you go from CBS News, that he was haunted? It's slightly chilling.

I mean, look, the way that he's turning and stuff like that, you know, in that video, you can kind of see he's kind of, I don't know, it feels as though there's like an eerie presence there. Definitely, you know, a little unfazed for sure. But I do think that there is a sense of oddness, weirdness. He's obviously, you know, I mean, something obviously, I think just happened. And he looks a little bit, you know, cautious. He's looking over his shoulder. So I do think that there is sort of a sense of a haunting to it. I do think it is obviously

very weird and he is a little unfaced as well. He's looking, Jacqueline, that's true. He's looking for the refrigerated aisle. To Karen Stark joining me, forensic psychologist, renowned TV and radio advocate. She's an expert. She is a consultant. And you can find her at Karen Stark.com. Karen Stark, he doesn't look haunted to me. I think that's certainly open to interpretation. To me, he looks like he's looking for the refrigerated area to find his favorite drink that he's paying for, probably with a credit card that's sent to his mom and dad. Without a doubt, Nancy, because they took such good care of him.

And I don't know where it's coming from that they might not have been good parents because I think that they were actually excellent parents when it comes to mental health. It's almost impossible to know what to do with your child. It's a terrible situation. I want to add that this kind of drug abuse for so many years affect the prefronted cortex of the brain, which means executive functioning. In other words, he did not make the decisions.

He was impulsive. He clearly had a hostile dependency relationship with his parents. He needed them, but he didn't want to do it. them because he was 32 years old, he felt inferior. There's so much evidence that points to that. And there was growing anger. He messed up their guest house. That's been reported repeatedly.

And his sister was afraid of him, and a neighbor talked about violent tendencies. And so I think these parents really were trying very hard to do their best. and did not intentionally ignore these symptoms. It's very hard to know what's going on with this type of son, child. Karen Stark, well put, and that is why you're a renowned TV radio trauma expert. Joe Scott Morgan joining us now.

Joseph Scott Morgan is Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University. He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is the star of a hit new podcast. body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But for my purposes, he is a death investigator who has investigated thousands, over 10,000 death scenes to determine one of just a handful of manners of death. There's a difference between COD cause of death and manner of death. Manor of death can only be accidental, suicide, natural causes such as heart attack or stroke, unexplained, or homicide. Those are your choices. Joe Scott, thank you for being with us tonight.

Joe Scott Morgan, could you explain what Jacqueline Roth from OK Magazine just reported as the official COD? because Joe Scott, I got a problem. It's bad enough that their throats were slit in their sleep, which leads me to a special circumstance the DA hasn't included, lying in weight. But also there were other stab wounds, Joe Scott. Other stab wounds. What does that mean in your world? It means that this is an anger-filled frenzied attack, you know, Nancy.

you know, because this is something that is driven by rage. We see this many times, particularly with sharp force injuries. Think about what you use a knife, a pair of scissors for, a hatchet for, those sorts of things. They are used to slice and destroy things, right? It's the most personal of types of attack that you can possibly have in my field. And so, and it's in addition to that, Nancy, this is something that everybody needs to hold on to. This is always up close and personal. And I have my own theory about this.

You know, based upon what has been stated thus far that Mr. Reiner and Ms. Singer were found in their bed, it would not be outside the realm of possibility that the attacker potentially climbed into bed with them to facilitate the attack if they did not have the opportunity to flee. So again, this goes to this very personal, personal event that has taken place. I hate to use the term event. It's more like butchery because I can guarantee you that's what it would have been. But Nancy, there's something that is even more dark here because the medical examiner listed the cause of death. They ruled it the manner as homicide, obviously. But they said multiple sharp force injuries, but Nancy, you know, there's a line beneath this.

where it says, and other significant conditions contributed to their deaths. And that's like this big unknown that's hiding out there. And we can put any number of things into those categories, all right? You can say that there was underlying natural disease. Like, you know, if someone is attacked, you have heart disease, you're not going to survive it. There could be toxicological issues. I can't imagine they would have talks back this soon. But you also have the specter of blunt force trauma, like where they were hit, punched, kicked, stomped, any number of things like that.

And it's really painting this very, very dark picture as we move through all of this data that's coming forth to us now. And we're going to know more. We're not going to know everything because this is an ongoing case. But just this little bit of information that the coroner has released out in L.A. is something to kind of chew on for a bit here because this is going to be highly complex from a forensic standpoint. Upon arrival, officers located two deceased individuals

inside the residence later identified as Rob Reiner and Michelle Reiner. Both victims were found in the master bedroom in the area of the home. Officers conducted a thorough search of the residence to determine whether there were any additional victims or suspects and no one else was located. Nick Reiner is charged with two counts of murder, with the special circumstances of multiple murders, because he killed two people at the same time.

From an early age, he appeared to be a difficult child. He had anger in his eyes. Nick Reiner is an abuser. He's a drug addict. The district attorney stating that these charges include special circumstances. What are they? Special circumstances are alleged, and they must be, under the law, alleged. in the indictment if the death penalty is being sought when a murder occurs with quote special circumstances

that means that there are circumstances supporting the state seeking the death penalty that is not true in every homicide the special circumstances that have been announced in this case are one mass murder which means more than one body

and to the use of a weapon to Troy Slayton joining me, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney out of L.A. Isn't that true, Troy? It is true. There's currently a moratorium in place signed by the governor by executive

order, but that could change as soon as a new governor is elected or there's some sort of proposition put into law by the people of the state of California. So a new governor could eradicate Newsom's moratorium.

There's a lot of people sitting on California's death row, or the people of California could vote on a proposition allowing or getting rid of the moratorium. Troy Slate in many jurisdictions, there are multiple special circumstances, you know. Both of us have worked on death penalty cases before. I was thinking about the possibility of pecuniary interest as an underlying factor, a special circumstance in this case, because as it stands right now, Nick Reiner could inherit from his parents. Killing them would make him one of the few beneficiaries.

There are four children. It could if he were to not be convicted. However, California prohibits people from profiting from their crime. So if he is convicted of their murder. Yes, if he is convicted of the crime of murderous parents in the camp. I'm not guilty by reason of insanity. That's a good question. He would probably spend the rest of his life in a California mental institution,

possibly at Patton State Hospital here in California, where whether he had the money or not, he wouldn't be able to use it. Correction, tiny correction. NGBRI under the California Slayer Act, someone that kills the victim, cannot then inherit under the law. if they're convicted. If they're found in GBRI not guilty by reason of insanity, it then is thrown into probate and they may inherit. NGBRI, not guilty by reason and sanity. Once you are, once you are treated and declared well, you then are out of the mental facility, isn't that right?

it is so rare for somebody who is convicted of well found not guilty by reason of insanity placed in a California mental hospital to ever be released it almost never happened that would be yes once treated and declared well look at Hinkley last I looked he's living with mommy and daddy the way that it works in California is you're entitled to another jury trial on whether or not you are well. But again, he could walk after being deemed cured, even following a not guilty by reason up. And Sammy, are you familiar when John Hinkley?

Is that ringing a bell to you? Yes, but that's not California. Do you recall what John Hinkley was convicted of? Yes, shooting the president of the United States. And do you know where he is today? He's out. Yes, he's out. He is out.

That's what happened. It was an attempted assassination. It wasn't murder. Of the president. You know what? I feel like I should be talking to a lamp post right now. Hinkley walked. It could happen.

Things change. Charles Manson got the death penalty. Then the law changed and he got life behind bars. Then when the DP was reinstated, it would not be applied retroactively. You never know what's going to happen. So back to where I started, pecuniary interest in the death of the victim is typically a special circumstance. And lying in wait is a special circumstance. To Joseph Scott Morgan, you brought up the specter that he, Nick Reiner,

until his parents were asleep to sneak in and murder them. That's lying in wait. Yeah, of course it is. And listen, Nancy, you know, I talked about how personal the slaughter was. And with that being said, this goes to an idea that whoever did this would have familiarity with the habits of the victims. They would know what time individuals went to bed. They would know where their bedroom is, right? And so how better to do this than to wait?

Because not only are you trying to, the assailant could be attempting to kill one person, they're trying to kill two. So you have to be able to take advantage of the darkness. You have to be able to take advantage that the person or persons are not aware of what's going along, going around because they might be in rim at that point in time. So, yeah, I think that that line in wait is a big factor here going forward. And what does that go to? That goes to some level of planning now.

crime stories with nancy grace you know he's been great he's you know hasn't been doing drug for over six years i mean he's he's in a really good place i'm really glad to hear that much better place is a good place now though rob reiner boasts in september that previously troubled son nick has been clean for more than six years now a source close to the family says riner was rapidly declining in the weeks before attacking his parents. The source claims Reiner did not give any indication of violent tendencies and if he had, things would have been much different. You were

hearing Rob Reiner speaking with Terry Gross on NPR's Fresh Air podcast. Karen Stark joining us, addiction specialist, renowned TV radio trauma expert and forensic psychologist. Karen, why

is it? We parents don't want to see anything wrong. with our children? It's purely instinctive, Nancy. Think about the twins. It makes such a difference when it's your child. You want to believe the best.

And it was a long time, a very long time since he was in rehab. And so it was what they were hoping. It was not the reality. Because allegedly, he was getting worse. He did trash the guest house. He certainly was hostile when he went to that party, enough so that somebody private, like Rob Reiner,

actually had a fight with him, an argument in front of all those people, which was reported. And so he was not actually this mild kid who had recovered and was doing very well, but parents want to believe that, desperately want to believe that. And of course now the endless finger pointing has started, including blaming the victims. Listen.

What did Rob Reiner do so bad that this kid hated him so much? Was it money? Was it abuse? Was it neglect? Hi, Tess, you're right. I don't know how the Reiner's were as parents, but I do know, and which I'm quite frankly, kind of fucking embarrassed that you don't,

is that you can't just murder your parents when they're mean to you. That is from at the midnight, one, two, three on TikTok and chillis girl forever on TikTok. I want to go to a family friend that knows the Reiner's, that knows Nick Reiner, that has known them for years. Heather Michaels is with us, investigative reporter, producer at Heather Michaels TV. Heather, I strongly resent people asking, what did the Reiners do to deserve this? They didn't deserve this, and all they did was love him and pay for his endless rehab stancing,

give him a place to live, and a car to try. I think I saw him driving by in a restored vintage Mustang. I think I saw that. He didn't pay for that. He didn't pay for those clothes. He probably charged his parents for his hidey hole after the murder. I mean, they did nothing wrong. They did everything they could to help him. Yes. And the comments are disgraceful. They're despicable. But everybody's got an opinion now. You know, you have all these podcasts that everyone wants to chime in. These are two parents that were absolutely fantastic. We're loving, compassionate. You know, you ask neighbors, you ask long-term, long-time family friends, people in the industry. Everybody loved and adored these people. And they were fantastic with each and every one of their children. They gave him a clear choice. You can live here in our multi-million dollar home. I believe the home had once belonged to Norman Lear. It's beautiful. Or you can go to rehab or you can go to jail or the street. And we're learning that from a movie created by Rob Reiner with his son, Nick detailing Nick Reiner's struggles with drugs. And it's called Being Charlie. What does the movie reveal? Look.

I love him. Oh, and I don't love him. You've had plenty of choices, Charlie. Or jail, you know, quite a wide selection there. One of us had to keep him safe. For him or for you? That's from being Charlie. And you clearly see this is a mirror of the Reiner's life.

The arguments, the fights, the disruptions with the son, Nick Reiner. The dad says, you've had plenty of choices. says, yeah, rehab or jail. What a selection. You know, to Karen Stark, people all over this country would love to be in Betty Ford or some other really expensive, really posh rehab, where they could live in luxury and actually get well. Yes, but Nancy, in this case, nothing really worked for him. I want to say something about the movie, if that's okay with you. I think that the movie had a negative effect on him.

And the reason I'm saying this is it portrays him as the one in the family that is not okay, the one that's sick, the one that has drug problems. And I think that what that did was reinforce his feelings of inferiority and the fact that he could not get out from under, he couldn't stop his addiction. Karen, it was his movie. He wanted so badly to be a screenwriter. That's the only credit he's got. for Pete's sake. His father handed it to him on a silver platter.

But Nancy, look at the credit. It's a negative credit. I don't know that he actually thought about that. I bet he didn't. I mean, he wanted his story told, but it's a bad story. And he really couldn't do anything after that. He couldn't move forward. He just had this one movie. He never did anything before that. Right. But it shows him as being the one of all of the children and the parents and the grandparents that was not successful, that didn't do well. Okay, let me understand something. Are you saying that the movie was not the truth, Karen Stark? No, I'm saying it was, but I'm saying that it could not possibly. Could Rob Reiner help that that was the truth? The point of the movie was to help other people.

No, I'm not talking about Rob Reiner. I'm talking about the effect of that you think that had a negative impact on to Heather Michaels. I want to follow up with what Karen Stark is saying. The one movie, the one credit Nick Reiner ever had was a movie his father created and brought him in on it to help other people, Heather. I don't know how that could have had a negative impact on Nick Reiner. He got a big fat paycheck out of the thing. The movie could have had such a tremendous impact on so many people. It could have been educational. his story was being told in a very respectful way in a very educational way that movie was fantastically done and it really could have made such an impact for others but rather that portrayal and and the way he nick you know what nick took from it then it ended up having such a negative impact and this is being played over and over and over again Let's take a look at Nick Reiner, rapping. And I don't even care if anyone calls me a Sally because I'm a snail and I'm never going to fail.

And you know what? You're going to have to bail me out of jail. Nick Reiner behind bars tonight without bail. Let's take a look at Rob Reiner. You call her up. You say, come on, let's get together. We'll look at swatches. What have I done?

Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder? These aren't you eleven. I'm never going to get out of this town now, my gory. You can do anything you want, man. I'll have what she's having. I want the truth! You can't handle the truth! I like to take care of one. like to take care of one foot at a time.

If you know or think you know anything about this case, the state is building a case as we go to air tonight. Please dial 800-22-2-2-847-7. Did you see Nick Reiner that evening? Did he speak to you? Did you observe anything he did? Did you see him slow down? throw something out of the window, i.e. a knife. If you know or think you know anything about this case,

please dial 800-222-2-847-800-22-22-847-7. We remember American Hero Officer Lisa Meldon, Miller County Sheriff's Office, Arkansas, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a husband-turned-witted, Travis and three daughters with no mom. American Hero Officer Lisa Meldon. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.