Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - NOLAN WELLS: ALTERCATION WITNESS EMERGES?

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Is there a mysterious witness coming forward online to what happened to Nolan Wells, or is it just malicious trolls?  New social postings seen to threaten to out someone as having a fight with Nolan on Horn Island. Shortly after that post, someone else claimed to have been hacked and that posting under her name were not real. What's the truth about Nolan Wells?  Joining Nancy Grace today: Brandon Tatum - Former Police Officer with the Tucson Police Dept., Host of "The Officer Tatum" on Youtube,   @TheOfficerTatum  X: TheOfficerTatum  Insta: theofficertatum Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy  Ben Dobrin -  Emergency Response Diving Instructor and Instructor Trainer, Police Diver,  Emergency Services Diver Jeff Schettler  -  Former police K9 handler, Author of 5 books:  "Two Weeks to Operational Tracking" "Red Dog Rising, K9 Trailing" "The Straightest Path" "Tactical Tracker Teams" "The Tao of Trailing,"www.GAK9.com, www.TTTK9.com,  https://www.facebook.com/georgiak9  Joseph Scott Morgan  - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", YouTube Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic     Susan Hendricks  - Investigative Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi", IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks  Dave Mack  - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The Nolan Wells investigation into the death of a shotgun.

star Nolan Wells has an altercation witness emerged, a witness that claims she saw an altercation at Horn Island. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. A Nolan Wells phone evidence torpedo. Two confirmed witnesses that saw Nolan Wells on the island around 6 p.m. Detroit, as you said, left around 4.30. What witnesses? Where? Who, what, where, why, and when? I have not spoken publicly about this before, but I witnessed an altercation involving Nolan Wells from a boat nearby. What I saw has stayed with me and I believe it's important information. I have provided or intend to provide my account to the appropriate investigators because Nolan's family deserves the truth. Out of respect for the ongoing

investigation, I won't speculate beyond what I personally observed. While I was on the boat near the area, I witnessed an altercation involving Nolan Wells and several other individuals. I saw what appeared to be an argument that escalated after there was a dispute involving Nolan's phone. I heard Nolan yelling for his phone to be returned. The argument continued after the group reached shore, and I observed a physical fight. involving Nolan and multiple people. I also observed a young woman telling them to stop. At that point, I left the area because the situation had appeared to be getting worse.

I did not remain long enough to witness what happened afterward. Everything beyond what I personally observed would be speculation, so I cannot honestly say what occurred after I left. Then she said she messaged one of the individuals that she saw, Hey, I just want to say I was a passenger on another boat and I saw the argument between you guys and we'll go to the police with this information. I also have video footage. My husband doesn't show much, but it shows the argument that was taken and how you guys were upset at Nolan because of the young lady. That from Secret Service Sam on TikTok.

Okay. How is this helping the investigation? I'm trying to make sense of so many people online making comments. Now, if this is true, if there is a witness who has a husband with her on the boat and they took a certain amount of video, it could change everything, especially if the video is time-stamped. Straight out to veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney Philip DeBay joining me. He's joining us out of L.A., formerly in the public defender's office. They try a ton of cases.

Philip, first of all, has she turned it into police? She said she was. If she hasn't, I give her no credibility at all. Look, I want this to be true. Why? Because I want the video. I want to see the timestamp on the video. I want to see, was he still on Horned?

when his acquaintance is on the Triton boat left, I want that video. And if she hasn't brought this forward to L.E. Law enforcement, then it means nothing to me. I mean, if I know a young man turns up dead in the water. And I know there's a controversy surrounding this. I mean, we know she knows that because she's gone online and posted it. Then why not hand it over to police? Agreed. And it should go to the grand jury for part of their investigation. But I got to tell you, if I were cross-examining her, should this even go to trial, the first question I'd ask her on that 4th of July, what she had been drinking. Before that video got activated, everybody would want to put him up.

Come up. How many people were parking out? Have you lost your mind? You defend criminal cases. I bet everybody you put on the stand has either been high, drunk, or worse during the altercation. Well, every witness is not a nun, a priest or virgin. Everybody on Horn Island was drinking, man. What are you talking about? I don't care if she took a drink. I want the video. You want the truth is what you want.

You want the truth. Yeah, and that would be the video. Remember, Nancy. Okay. Brandon Tatum is joining us. So after all that, all you have to say is, was she drinking? that's your takeaway from that. Joining me is Brandon Tatum.

Former police officer Tucson, now star of the Officer Tatum on YouTube, who famously has interviewed the acquaintances who all say they had nothing to do with it. Let's just put that out there. He's interviewed them extensively. I want to talk about not what you want to talk about, Brandon Tatum, which is they had nothing to do with this because I met them and I believe them. So noted. can we talk about a potential witness to an altercation? And she seems to suggest it was over

Katie. Why? Don't know what the altercation was. Maybe it was, hey, leave her alone and get on the boat or leave her alone. She's my girlfriend. Or it could be anything. But if there is a witness placing no one seemingly in the water, I can't tell that, but having an argument with another person, a part of your at Horn Island, that is significant. It could prove or disprove your friend's timeline. Well, Nancy, I think that it's a big obstacle to climb here because I've never heard of this altercation whatsoever. Nobody that I've talked to have alluded that this altercation was real and also Katie whom I saw her text messages she didn't even say this altercation occurred what I will say is that if I was an investigator in this investigation I want to

hear that I want to be able to compare that information to other things that we may have other witness statements but I don't think it's significant because it doesn't show if Nolan wells was actually killed in that altercation she's claiming that there was an altercation between him arguing with somebody else there was a potential fight but that doesn't get me to how did he drown. How do he get in the water and how do he not recover and come home to his family? So I would take that into consideration. I would compare that to the other interviews that I've done, but I don't think it's significant whatsoever. However, I would be incredibly skeptical because there's no other statements that I've heard from anybody that comes even close to an altercation with Nolan Wells

and others over a girl. Number one, he's dead. He's dead. shortly after an alleged altercation with another male. We think over a woman. See, in my world, I put together both circumstantial and direct evidence. Direct evidence would be, for instance, DNA or a fingerprint. Circumstantial evidence is the timing of the alleged altercation and his death. Right? Nancy, it's hard for me to believe that there's some kind of altercation on Horn Island just before he dies.

And they were not connected. That's hard for me to believe that. Well, Nancy, she's not saying he lost the fight. She's not saying that he got beat up. If you look at the autopsy, there's no clear signs of blunt force trauma to his face or any of the vital areas that could kill him. So it doesn't appear that there's any indication that he lost a fight, that there was enough trauma in this particular fight that would lead to his death. And when you look at the autopsy, there is no blunt forced trauma to his face. There is no lacerations or damages to the back of his head.

This is redness that was underneath the skin. Wait. Are you looking at the screen? Because I'm looking at a big red mark on the back of his head. Yeah, but this is underneath the skin. This is not a big red gash that's in the back of his head, which would be consistent with blunt force trauma. This is something that occurred underneath the skin that could have been from pooling of blood after his death due to, you know. Okay, I need to explain something. I got to, I don't want, I'll let the experts talk about specifics, but it doesn't appear that there's any blunt.

But I want everyone to understand why Officer Tatum is here. Officer Tatum and Philip DuBay and others on our panel tonight are taking a particular side. It's called cross-examination and it is similar to what happens in court. A theory emerges, a line of questioning emerges, and the other side tested with fire. under cross-examination. And then hopefully you get to the truth. Right now, we're talking about an alleged eyewitness to an altercation just before Nolan Wells is dead. If she has not handed this over to the police, it doesn't mean a hill of beans to me. But Tatum has a good idea, and that is let's let an expert discuss it. To Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator,

professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, you can see him, now on a hit podcast. It's on YouTube, Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, if there had been not a blunt force trauma that Officer Tatum is describing, but a fist fight. If there had been a fist fight, plus body in water for multiple days, body decomposition, would you expect to see red marks on the hands at that jump? on the face, what would you expect if there had been a fisticuffs? Yeah, you would see, well, first off, above discolored areas, like consistent with contusions. If there are facial strikes or just body blows, you can actually see abraded areas over the

surface of his fingers. And these are very subtle sometimes. And if there is decomposition, which we believe there is, particularly per the second autopsy that was performed. He didn't make note of this. And can I go one more step with this? And this is kind of graphic, but people need to understand this. This physician that did the second autopsy actually did what's referred to as a coronal sectioning of the face. So there were multiple incisions made into Nolan's face in this autopsy, this second autopsy. And this guy didn't see anything. He didn't see anything that was of import relative or are indicative of blunt force trauma.

And I would think that if there was contact, particularly if he's fighting a group of people, these sorts of things, you're going to have injuries probably on the leading edges or what we refer to as the blade of the arm right here on the forearm, the back of the hands, the knuckles, those points of contact. And certainly if there's facial strikes going on with him, which we find with blunt force trauma many times with with fisticofts, as you say. You'll see these strikes. You'll see, you'll see marks on the face. There's nothing to indicate that in the second autopsy.

Now, what the state has, I don't know, but I do know this. I know they're saying they're done with the autopsy, and it's complete, which means the gross findings in the autopsy room, the talks, the histology, that means that that autopsy report is complete. They just hadn't released their findings yet. My SUV is worth more than ever. Time to upgrade? There's never been a better time.

At Plaza Auto Group locations get top value for your trade and shop hundreds of new and pre-owned vehicles across 11 locations. And if you can't come to us, we'll come to you. With best in class pricing, unbeatable trade values, and 70 years of trust. It's easy to see why families choose the Plaza Auto Group. Plaza Auto Group, celebrating 70 years family owned and operated. Visit Plaza Auto Group.com. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

The autopsy is complete. There are reports that there is no cocaine in Nolan's system. That's uncorroborated reports, but a good source. No cocaine in the system. Joe Scott, when the body has been in the elements such as the water for that long, how can I confirm if he had been drinking or not? Oh, you can still pull a BA, blood alcohol or blood ethanol level, as it's referred to. And again, Nancy, we're not talking about someone that has been down for weeks and weeks.

We can still do the BA and it can come from urine, blood. We can still draw urine and find it pretty effectively. You'll have what's referred to as qualitative. We've talked about this before, and I know you understand that. But so our friends understand you have a qualitative amount, which they say, yes, it is present. And then you have a quantitative amount where they do the measurement of the BAC, the blood alcohol content. you know, just think about DWI, DUI, wherever you're from, you know, those levels. And then we get up to those lethal levels. That's really what I'm interested in relative.

And yeah, I'm interested in any of the other toxicological findings you might have relative to anything illicit or illicit drugs, but particularly with alcohol, because that has been kind of this thing that has been said over and over and over again. Well, let me see it. I want to know what the blood alcohol level was like. And historically, I would like to know what his level of experience has been with alcohol. As you well know, because of the cases you worked on in the past, Nancy, if you're a lightweight, if you've never had anything to drink and you start taking on copious amounts of alcohol, you know, and you're kind of a neophyte in this area, it can be, it can have very, very lethal outcomes. Let me understand Joe Scott Morgan joining us, Star Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan on

YouTube and Death Investigator. When I'm asking you, even if the body has been in the elements for a period of days, can I still get a blood alcohol? Maybe not from urine, but you certainly can't do a blow test, but can you take human tissue from one of the organs and extract a blood alcohol from human tissue? It'd be very difficult. Generally, the liver is the best candidate. We'll spin that down. We'll take a section of it, spin it down and liquefy it. But again, I submit to you, Nancy, that he has not been down long enough to compromise the ability to get at least a quantitative amount. Yeah, to get a BA.

Okay. To Philip DuBay joining me, a veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney out of the LA jurisdiction. I'm not quite sure why you're so focused on who had been drinking. Let's take a look at the video. Let me answer that. for you. Everybody was drinking. Okay, everybody had a snoot full. So even someone drinking can see an altercation debate. No, of course you can. And I can see that crowd of people out there. It was a bustling hot 4th of July afternoon. But who's to say that the people that she saw included Nolan Wells. And that's why you got to get into her ability to proceed. and recollect being impacted by intoxicants such as alcohol. I would want to know if she had imbibed. I really would, not to mention the autopsy findings thus far do not reflect any type of physical insults or injury to his body. At most, what you have are signs. I'm asking you about your

fixation on the witness having been drinking. Joe Scott Morgan has already addressed the body. I'm talking to you about the alleged witness. Yeah. If she had, in fact, been drinking, I do believe, unless they really have a video showing him an HD quality, showing that he was in a fight, then I would call her ability to perceive, recollect, and even state that there was an altercation going on in her presence. You know, Brandon Tatum joining us, Officer Tatum on YouTube. I've cross-examined a lot of witnesses, and I cross-examine them exactly on that. How far away were you? Did you know the target?

Were you familiar with them? Was your vision obstructed by anything? Were you wearing glasses? Were you wearing sunglasses? What time of the day? I mean, I could go on, on. But unless you have a nun, a priest, or a virgin on the stand, or maybe Angel Gabriel might come down and testify, you have to take your witness as you find them.

And I'm sure you've had a lot of drunk witnesses in Tucson to everything from a bar fight to a murder to a dope deal. Look, I'd say a good 50% of witnesses were drunk at one time or the other. That doesn't mean they didn't see what they saw. Well, from a law enforcement perspective, you know, this is not cross-examination on a stand. and this is us, what I would deal with with the witnesses right on the scene. And I don't, I'm not too concerned of whether the person is drunk or not.

I'm not going to test their blood alcohol level on the scene. I want to know specifically what did you see, what are the identifying markers that you have to say that this is Nolan. If the person can describe them, maybe we'll do a show up. If we have like a video or picture or something, we can show them and say, hey, does this match the person you think that was here? Then we'll have a good perspective. But there is a challenge here because you,

do have to identify him. You can't just say it was a black man out there with curly hair and I think it was Nolan. You're gonna have to have some clear identifying markers that you know this is Nolan. And then you have to identify the people he was fighting with and the girl. And I think this person is gonna have a big challenge.

I saw this text message. We reached out to the girl on her social media. She never responded to us. I don't know if she ever really sent it into the police, but it is problematic in my opinion if she hasn't. If you're gonna say somebody is going to spend time in jail, or you alluding to the fact they committed a crime and the fact now that we know that Nolan did not survive being out there at Horn Island, and you never

submitted that to law enforcement, there's a potential that that's tampering with evidence. If you have evidence of a crime and you're withholding that from law enforcement and you knowingly and intentionally are doing that, that could be very problematic for a person who claim to be a witness. No. No. Morally, it's wrong, but there is no duty under the law. that you have to report yourself as a witness, that you have to volunteer information.

You can stand on the side of a pool and watch somebody drown and do nothing unless you have a fiduciary capacity. And it's not a crime in our jurisprudence. So nothing is compelling her under the law to come forward. However, interesting, she did post it, she did identify herself, she did say she was going to police, and that would be my first line of cross. Did you take this to the police? And if she said no, all H-E-E-W-L break out in that courtroom,

if you have information like this and you don't go to the police, no, no, fur would fly. Fur would fly. You ever seen a dog fight? That's what I mean by that. Fur would fly. So that would be a line of cross exam. Hold on something else.

Before I go out to Susan Hendricks, Jeff Scho, and Ben Dobran, now information that there is, in fact, a criminal investigation. Hearing that somebody who has an inside source is saying the DA's office in Mississippi is now looking at the Nolan Wells case as a criminal investigation and no longer an accidental drowning. Now, we can only pray that this is true. Obviously, we can't, you know, we can't celebrate. We can't get excited at all because I have not seen Ben Crump announces. It is not being reported by any other major media sources, but there are rumblings. From Sam Crupin. All right, I would like to point out that his source is a quote, little birdie. A little, little birdies are

saying that an inside source says the DA's office is now looking. into the Nolan Wells as a criminal investigation. I can't put that up on the stand. Susan Hendricks joining me investigative journalist and author of Down the Hill, my descent into the double murder in Delphi. Susan, you get laughed out of court. If your witness said, A Little Birdie told me, number one, that's hearsay, but a little birdie? Yeah, exactly. It makes me wonder, did that woman, those text messages about some sort of altercation, is the grand jury analyzing this as we speak? Because finally the DA came out and said,

look, I can't release anything that's going on, but let it be clear and I'm paraphrasing, that we are investigating this with the grand jury. Susan Hendricks, you're absolutely right. She states most recently, this is the elected district attorney. My obligation and commitment is to present the grand jury with all the evidence collected in the case

in order for them to reach a decision based on a thorough investigation, complete evidence presentation, the actual truth, and an understanding of the law. I'm obligated to do so in keeping with the law and the rules of the court. She goes on to state, I stand firmly on the rule of law and my ethical obligation. That is what the people of Jackson County elected me to do. I will present the grand jury with a thorough, complete, and fair investigation into the death of Nolan Wells.

Now, is there a criminal investigation? According to some sources, there is. We keep hearing there is no criminal investigation. To Dave Matt, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, what is the truth of it tonight? Nancy, it hasn't been announced that there's a criminal investigation, but it just stands to reason

that they are doing a full investigation into the death of Nolan Wells. At this point, we don't have a cause of death, Nancy. They have not released the reports on the autopsy that was done by the state completed weeks ago. We don't know anything, nothing's been released. So whether they're doing a criminal investigation or not, I think it stands the reason they are investigating to every piece of evidence they can find to determine what happened and what they can present they being investigators to the grand jury. I understand the public's urgency to know what happened to Nolan, but we are not taking time for time's sake. We are taking the time required to

complete the work this investigation demands. Since Nolan was reported missing, local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies have worked around the clock investigating what happened to him. Every piece of evidence must be examined. Every credible lead must be. Every credible lead must be followed to its conclusion. Every witness interview must be analyzed in context of all other evidence. The pressure for answers does not change what the work requires. Our responsibility to Nolan and our community is to complete this investigation thoroughly, carefully, without compromise, supported by the evidence and worthy of the confidence of the people we serve. I also understand that many people have questions about why more information has not been released publicly.

In Mississippi, the rules of professional conduct restrict the information a prosecutor can release during an investigation. Our restraint and communicating facts and evidence is not an effort to keep the truth from the public. It is an effort to protect the integrity of this investigation in the grand jury proceeding. And tonight, more rumblings that the wrong boat was searched. The MDMR report states that the searched vessel was called a Tide Craft, right, on July 8th. But witnesses show he used a Tide Line boat on July 4th. In the MDMR report, right down at the bottom in the yellow, it says Tide Craft, not Tide Line. From Sam Kruppen to Ben Dobran, emergency response diving instructor,

and trainer. Ben, thank you for being with us. What about the mistake in the name of the boat, if it was in fact a mistake? And could that explain any problem in getting GPS information? Well, absolutely, because there are two different brands of boats. It's like saying, I'm going to search a Ford, and then you go out and search a Chevrolet in a car. They're very different brands of boats. And so if they were searching the wrong boat, then any information on that boat would be the wrong information. So if you're going after the GPS platter on the Chevrolet, but you want the GPS platter off of the Ford, they have no bearing. And so if you're searching the incorrect boat, you have incorrect evidence. To Brandon Tatum, star of the Officer Tatum on YouTube, we just saw some video from your show.

and I'm trying to figure out, among other things, what time and day, if you have a time and a date stamp on that, that seemingly shows the Triton with a lot of people on it, leaving the island, leaving Horn Island. Do you have a timestamp on that? I don't have the time stamp. I can ask them to see if they can get it to me. When I watched this video and they presented it to me, this was during the time that the C-Tocall was occurring. So it had to been right around that time. you can see Wyatt on the boat on the phone.

And so this is how it was presented to me. And just to kind of answer your question about the boat searches, you know, it's partially irrelevant depending on the investigation and the interviews that they've done. There is no indication that there was a crime committed on any one of these boats. When you have 60 people that have already given statements to law enforcement, you have the young men that I interviewed

that were on their boat that left the island. And then you have people that saw Nolan on the island after they had left, it's no indication that Nolan was on any one of those boats at any point in time and that a murder occurred on those boats. So regardless if they searched them or not, you know, it was offered up for them to use a cadaver dog, but that never occurred. And so I don't really think that the boat situation of search is significant. The boys submitted their Life 360, which is how they got a GPS tracking of when they left

the island and how they got from point A to point B, where they docked and all of those things. So all of the information has been concluded or at least have been explored, and it didn't appear that there is any foul play on any one of the votes. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

Officer Tatum, I respect everything that you just said. But to have a witness tell me it's true because I said so. And because my friends say so, that doesn't mean it's true to me. It could be true. And I see, GPS, that doesn't tell me what happened to no one. Just because they got GPS by when they came by. They provided Life 360. They provided the CTO call.

and you can put those two things together and say, okay, the timeline matches. And if they left at 4.30, they were already gone. All three boats that came out were already gone when Nolan was last seen. So now you have a timeline that's consistent with evidence that they presented. Right there. I was going with you until you said the time Nolan was last seen. Because their GPS data, I'm sure, is correct.

And their live 360 data, I'm sure is correct. I'm not arguing with the technology. But what happened just before that? Where was Nolan when they're leaving the island? If you can place him on that island at five or six o'clock, please do it. And then I will turn attention elsewhere. I'm not trying to hang your friends, the people that you have interviewed. And I respect that you believe them.

And maybe you're right. If he can be placed on that island at five or six o'clock, then they're in the clear. But I want to know who's placing them. him there and how? Reports have come out that there's two reliable witnesses. TMZ reported on this. They said they saw Nolan a little bit before 6 p.m. There was also the young lady Katie who sent text messages to one of the boys that I interviewed.

I saw the text messages where she alluded to the fact that she did not see Nolan get on the boat. She heard the boys yelling for Nolan to get on the boat. So Nolan never got back on the boat that he came on. So you have the boats leaving. you have a C-to call, you have testimony from everybody on the boat, and all of those things have to be taken in consideration. Also, they have already spoke to law enforcement about this. Them talking to me in the interview is them just telling the world what they told law enforcement. If there was any indication whatsoever that he was on the boat based on the testimony that was

given from the boys or anybody else, even this new witness that have come forward, I think that there would be a significant investigation leading to an immediate arrest, but they clearly don't have any clear evidence that there is a crime that is committed and especially a crime that was committed from the boys that I interviewed. I can't speak for everybody else, but I know the young men that I talked to, they were gone. There's no indication that Nolan was on the boat whatsoever. They're giving statements. Katie gave a statement.

even this person is claiming that they saw Nolan get into a fist fight, it appears that this person is claiming that the fight has happened after Wyatt and the rest of them had left on the boats. Ben Dobran joining us, emergency response diving instructor. What do you think regarding the boats, not just the Triton, but the other two boats that traveled with it? My question is, where did he go in the water? They got him out of the water, obviously on July 6th,

But my question is, where did he go in the water and when did he get into the water? Was it a drowning? Bodies behave differently underwater, whether it's a drowning or it was a killing elsewhere. There's a lot of different variables. The body washed up very close to where he was last seen. There's a lot of current in that area. If it was a drowning, people generally sink when they drown. But if you don't drown and you're put in the water, you're more likely to float.

And so there's a lot of variables that come into play of where the body was recovered versus where the body went in. And the timeline also, you know, two days, if the body had been in the water for two days, that does lead to decomposition. The water temperature is around 85 to 88 degrees. That's very warm water, a lot of bacterial growth. And so a lot of different variables in play of where the body went in, where it came out and the wind. Those are my questions. He's an athletic young man. he's very muscular.

Muscles sink in the water, fat floats. And so if he drowned, he was probably going to be on the bottom for a while. And if it was two days, you know, that makes sense if he drowned and then washed up very close to where he went in. And so to me, that that's a big piece of important information is, you know, if he drowned, he was recovered very close to where he was last seen. But what does that prove? If he drowned and he floated because in warm water it takes two to three days for your body to decompose and float, it proves that he was he drowned. Whether it was somebody holding them underwater and trying not, you know, trying to swim somewhere and wasn't a good swimmer, I have no idea.

But we haven't gotten the results from the autopsy. And the autopsy is going to tell us a lot. If he drowned, that's an important piece of information. if he did not drown, that's even more important. You have somebody who was found in the water, his body was found in the water and did not drown, that's a very important piece of information. But if he did drown and they found him in the water,

that can open up a lot more avenues for investigation at that point. Philip Dubay joining us, veteran trial lawyer. Philip, we know because the district attorney has said she is presenting information to a grand jury. There are reports it is a criminal investigative. What do you make of the possibility? This is a criminal investigation. I'll tell you exactly what it is.

Jackson County, Mississippi is one of the few jurisdictions in the United States that follows the old sergeant code. And what that was back in the day was the days of the coroner inquest, where if you had a violent, sudden, or casual death, and they couldn't figure out what happened, you would impanel a jury. where the medical examiner or the then appointed or elected coroner elicits testimony from people to try to determine manner and cause of death. What Mississippi did is they abrogated that and created this hybrid sort of coroner's inquest with grand jury investigation, where the grand jury will decide whether or not a death occurred and if there was a crime. And based on that, they can complete the death certificate with the cause and

manner of death and decide if they're going to return a true bill of indictment against a suspect. Is it your belief, Philip DeBay, that the grand jury presenter, and I have presented to literally hundreds of grand juries, that's one of the first things we would do in the Fulton County District Attorney's Office, is it your belief that, to a large degree, it depends on the leaning of of the presenter? Does the presenter believe a crime occurred? Or does the presenter want a no bill? In other words, no indictment? It's twofold. They want to determine, first of all, cause and manner of death and if it's a crime. And so they've sort of combined the roles of the grand jury leader, if you will, or the grand jury DA to help the grand jury make both determinations. So it's my opinion right now.

They don't know if they even have a homicide. They don't even know the cause of death, but they've lumped in all the causality to criminality just to get it all in one. Let me rephrase it, Debe. Well, the grand jury typically do what the presenter wants them to do. I mean, haven't you heard the phrase, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich if the presenter wants them to? Sure.

Yes, they will. It is. Okay. So we'll see what happens with this secret grand jury. You're on cross-examination. Who is our next sponsor? Well, here is a probative clue. Meow!

Smalls makes fresh human-grade food designed for cats to thrive. While big pet food uses cheap filler, Smalls features 80% animal protein in zero, zero artificial junk. 88% of cat parents report better digestion, softer fur, and more energy for their cats to play. It's a healthy investment your cat will love. If you want to invest in your cat's health, Smalls is giving you 60% off your cat's first order. 60% off plus free shipping and free treats for life.

When you go to smalls.com slash Nancy, SMA,000. L-L-S-Smalls.com slash Nancy. 60% off your first order, free shipping, and free treats for life when you had to smalls.com slash Nancy. Thanks, Smalls, and thank you from our cat, cinnamon. Tonight, we are trying to confirm or refute claims that Nolan Wells was alive on Horn Island after 5 or even 6 p.m. If you know or think you know anything regarding that matter,

Nolan Wells' last seen alive, don't just post it online. Call Jackson County Sheriff's 228-769-3063. Repeat. 28-7693063. There is a $125,000 reward for information leading to the truth of what happened to Nolan Wells. Was there an altercation? Did it break out into a fist fight just before he is killed? Did he drown? What was the true cause of death? We are, waiting for facts to allow the truth to unfold. Tonight, we remember an American hero officer Dustin Crish, Carrollton, PD, Georgia, just 33, killed in the line of duty after three years on the force,

leaving behind a grieving wife, Emily. American hero, Officer Dustin Crish. Thank you to all of our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray, signing off for tonight. But I'll see you tomorrow and I. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast.

Guaranteed human.