Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - NOLAN WELLS: ENHANCED DISTRESS CALL BOMBSHELL

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

MDMR releases the call audio from the boat in Nolan Wells case and it's raising lots of questions. You can hear what sounds like someone in the background might be saying, "Is he dead?"    The audio also sounds like  someone is saying "Nolan."   JOINING NANCY GRACE: Marie Pereira  -  Criminal Defense Attorney, Domestic Violence Expert (Domestic violence expert certified advocate, batterers prevention), Registered Nurse Dr. Elliott  Connie  - Pyschotherapist, Author: "Change Your Questions, Change your Future," President & Founder, The Solution Focused Universe, Podcast host: Family Therapy Podcast, Host of upcoming show: "The Elliott Connie Show," www.elliottconnie.com, YouTube: ElliottConnieSpeaks Facebook: Elliottspeaks Instagram: @elliottspeaks  Todd Terrell  - President of Cajun Navy Thomas Coyne  -  Medical Examiner, University of Florida.  District Eight Medical Examiner, State of Florida. Toxicologist.  Forensic Pathologist and Neuropathologist. Alexis Tereszcuk - Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at bellairdirect.com. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight in the Nolan Wells investigation, enhanced distress call audio bombshell.

Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. He was face down on the beach right at the water's edge. If he was sent face down, that also doesn't make sense to me. He's face down wouldn't flood pool just by nature of gravity this way. So right now, we've got a lot of questions.

But as the second doctor says, this is all still pending. investigation. If this were your child, wouldn't you want to know what happened? Detail assistant, Vicki speaking. How can I help you? Hey, we're at the west tip of horn and our village pump stopped working. We're going, we're sinking. Can y'all please come?

We have a membership. Oh, right, of course. How far is the word coming up, sir? Can you give me a description? Ancles. Hello? What do you say? Hey.

Is the, yes. How far is the, yes. water coming up, sir. It's coming up. We're just thinking, I don't know, like, we're going down there. What did we just hear? What was that? One more time, please.

Detail assistant, Vicki speaking. How can I help you? Hey, we're at the West tip of porn and our village pump, stopped working, we're going, we're sinking. Can y'all please come? We have a membership. All right, of course. How far is the water coming up, sir? Can you give me a description?

ankles. Hello? Hey. Yes, how far is the water coming up, sir? It's coming up. We're just thinking. I don't know. Like, we're going down. Straight out to investigative reporter crime stories,

Dave Mack. Did you just hear what I heard. Now, this has been transcribed, and this is the C-toe dispatch call. Because Dave, when I first heard this, I thought, has this been doctored? Is this real? Where's this coming from, Dave? Nancy, this is coming from the, from Mississippi, from the actual official.

Okay, when we get into the Mississippi Fish and Wildlife and the Reserve, putting this out for the public. This is not like from Dave Max recording. This is an official recording, Nancy, that is being issued. And it's shocking when you listen to this

call for a toe, for the seat toe. Going further into it, Nancy, you're picking apart all of the different voices that can be heard on this one phone call, trying to determine what is really taking place on this

boat that is allegedly sitting in 31 feet of water, a depth of 31 feet. And a village pump not working, claiming they're sinking and calling for help. And yet in the background, are we really hearing all of this other activity? Guys, this was released from the MDMR, the Mississippi Department of Marine Resources. Alexis Terezchuk, joining us out of L.A. just joining us now. Crime Stories investigative reporter as well. Alexis, Alexis, the transcription, I want you to listen to it, Alexis,

as we play it again. This is obtained from the Mississippi Department of Marine Resources. It's not something we just found on TikTok. Listen. Detail assistance, Vicki speaking. you? Hey, we're at the west tip of horn and our village pump stopped working. We're going, we're sinking. Can you all please come? We have a membership. All right, of course. How far is the

coming up, sir? Can you give me a description? Incles. Hello? Hey. Is the, yes, how far is the water coming up, sir? It's coming up. It's, it's, it's, we're just thinking. I don't know. Like, we're just, we're going down. Okay, Alexis Teresuchuk jump in. So it sounds like before the woman starts talking, the operator, everyone in the background is saying, is he dead? Nolan wake the fuck up. And so they are concerned about Nolan there saying literally is he dead. Nobody has ever, none of the kids on this boat have ever admitted that anybody was said that they thought Nolan was dead on the boat. This is the first time that we are hearing this. What is the chance that this has been doctored in some way, Alexis,

Tourette, because circulating on the internet was seeing where another young man was faced down, being attacked on the sand. That was not Nolan Wells. That's not Nolan Wells, repeat. So there are bottom feeders that

are fabricating evidence and circulating it and it's whipping up all sorts of hostility. But regarding this, have you listened to it independently of any transcription? I have. I have listened to it. I've listened to it over and over. And I've listened to the audio where it's only the sound of the boy calling in and not the operator's voice. So it takes a little bit of the distraction out.

And you can just hear the voices, the one friend saying, is he dead? And that's the, we are hearing somebody very worried. They're saying, is he dead? Somebody, you think you might have heard. them say Nolan right before that. Somebody then says, oh my God. So the thing is, there have been a lot of false videos. People have said there was a video where Nolan was screaming saying, give me my phone back. His friend says, no, that's me in the video.

There have been tons of AI generated videos and images and things. But this is the official audio from the organization. Now, it's my understanding, Dave Mack, that that's, sound we just played is real sound. That is not doctored sound, but someone else claims that's them saying, give me my phone back. That is not Nolan Wells. Explain. Well, Nancy, what we have is some friends that were also out on the boat trip out to Horn Island that were with Nolan, Wells, and we're friends with Nolan Wells, claim that that was him, that he was the one that was saying, give me my phone back, that it wasn't Nolan Wells.

So we've got an identification from the person who says, I was the one saying that. It wasn't Nolan Wells. And when you listen to the, when you listen to the audio, Nancy, it does seem like it is not Nolan Wells saying, give me my phone back. It sounds like the guy claiming it. Guys, a lot of confusion surrounding the audio that has been released by the Mississippi Department of Marine Resources. This, as we are also learning about an offer made by the United Cajun Navy to Ben Crump,

who is representing Nolan's family, to Todd Terrell joining us, the president of the Cajun Navy. Todd, thank you for being with us tonight. Todd, explain to me the offer that you guys made to Crump. Well, first of all, all, I want to make sure that I really am specific about the words I use because I don't want things taken out of context. Me personally, as president of the United Cajun Navy, made a call to Mr. Crump and offering him our services for dogs, cadaver dog and specific scent dogs. I never

heard back from him. Our incident commander, Josh Gill, did speak to Liza Parks, I think he's one of his lead attorneys or whatever, and offered the services as well. The rumors about us talking to Mr. Crump. Personally, I want to set the record straight. Nobody, myself, nor anyone from United Cajun Navy spoke personally to Mr. Crump. We did reach out and make an offer, but we did not hear back from him. Okay. Much has been made of the offer to, was it cadaver dogs, scent dogs, or both, Todd? It was both. It was cadaver dogs and specific scent dogs. Okay. And, you know, some of this needs to be clarified and, you know, we did make an offer, but we did not hear from him himself.

Gotcha. There's a lot of people on the team. So who is it that you said you guys contacted or spoke with? Liza Park. And we have a phone record. Our guy, Josh Gill, my incident commander, on the 13th, left her a message. And on the 14th, they reached out to her. And I think got back, I think it was 9.51 on the 14th.

There was a 23-minute call with Josh Gill, our incident commander, and Liza Park, who I believe is Mr. Crump's lead attorney. And so they knew well what we did, the credential of the dogs, and what our specific offer was. So they knew it ahead of time. To Marie Pereira joining us, a veteran criminal defense attorney. She is also a domestic violence expert and a registered nurse to boot. Marie, thank you for being with us tonight.

Here's the deal. A lot has been made that Nolan Wells' family turned down an offer to have the boat searched with. cadaver dogs, which if they had hit on the boat, would suggest a dead body had been on the boat. Here is the fly in the ointment. It's not their boat. They can't give authority or permission or privilege for anybody to get on that boat and search the boat. So the fact that Crump's team didn't call back means nothing. They were not authorized. to give authority or privilege or permission for anybody to board that boat,

much less a cadaver dog or a scent dog. You nailed it. And it's not his job or anybody else is to do what the police need to be investigating. After hearing that audio and knowing all the facts, they should be investigating this like it's a homicide and stop with the he say, she say from all of those kids on the boat who are presumed. innocent at this moment, but I'm seeing and hearing guilt. Just off the fact that they even had his phone, that part.

Why did you even have his telephone? I will never get over that because even as an adult, my phone is my life. If I'm staying back doing anything, I'm staying with my phone. So they need to be investigating all of those kids, interviewing them piece by piece one at a time, And I promise you, somebody's going to break and tell the truth here. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple.

Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at bellairdirect.com. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me is Marie Pereira. You know, in any criminal investigation, the first thing you do is get all the parties, all of them, and you separate them, and you question them separately, you give them a waiver of their rights, they read it, they sign it, you read it out loud to them, you get all this on video, and you ask each one separately what happened before they have a chance to

get together and talk. I'm not saying the friends are guilty. I'm not saying they're innocent. What I am saying is that would have been proper police procedure. For all we know, it did happen. It doesn't sound like it happened, but for all we know, it may have happened. The next thing you do is you ask them, would they willingly take a polygraph? Now, you and I, Marie Pereira, know that in a criminal case, polygraphs are not allowed into evidence unless they are stipulated. agree to before the polygraph is taken. So, the only way they come in. Now, in civil cases, they're allowed in. Think of O.J. Simpson. Didn't come in in in the criminal case? Did come in

in the civil case, and, P.S., he flunked it. That said, that's what you do. You separate them, you talk to them, you record it, you get their waiver of rights, you read their rights out loud on video, then you talk to them. Not hard. Next thing, you bring cadaver dogs and scent dogs on that boat. Now, scent dogs are going to hit on the boat anyway because they state Nolan was on the boat. So they're going to pick up Nolan's scent on that boat. Cadabra dog, whole other story. And another thing, I would get a search warrant for it.

You may not need a search warrant because a moving vehicle, as you know, Marie Pereira under USV Carroll, That was the case. It goes all the way back to moonshine days, bootleggers. If it's exigent circumstances, in other words, the evidence could leave. In that case, it was a car that was weighted down in the back. And the prohibitionists thought there was moonshine in it. And there was. And they stopped the car because the evidence would have been gotten rid of. Same thing with the boat. You may not even need a search warrant, but you could get one. That said, that should have been done day one.

To Todd Terrell, President Cajun Navy, you guys have, at your access, scent dogs and cadaver dogs. Do you believe, Todd, that any evidence of a body on that boat would still be detectable, even now? I'm not speaking specifically in this case, but in past cases, we've had dogs. detect body, you know, blood and smell months and even years later. Our biggest thing was you got to eat this elephant one piece at a time. And if no one thought there was anything on that boat, they should be willing to allow dogs to go on the boat. So for us, it's a matter of just as another tool.

It's a tool to use, you know, dogs on 100%, but these dogs are pretty damn close to it. Joining me now is Elliot Connie out of Arlington, Texas, psychotherapist, he's author, of Change Your Questions, Change Your Future. He's president-founder of the solution-focused universe. He's a star of Family Therapy podcast and upcoming The Elliott Connie show. Elliot, thank you for being with us. Thanks for having me. You know, both sides are so ready to jump on each other.

I imagine, I'm guessing, I don't know what Crump's thinking, but he did not have authority to release that boat. It's not his boat. That's like me telling you, Elliot, sure. Go ahead. Search Dave Mack's house. I don't care. You've got my permission.

That's not my house. I can't give permission for you to go search it. So it's really simple. That's absolutely right. It's really simple. I don't really understand so much of this. Like people are, like you said, one side is going after the other.

instead of just accepting really logical things, like the points that you're making here. Like, the family does not have the right to tell the other family what they can and cannot do with the boat, and other people are using that as evidence that there's something somehow wrong with what the family is saying, when all they really want is justice. And justice is the pursuit of truth. And it just seems to be triggering people in such an odd way that I quite frankly don't understand. Guys, I want to circle back not only to the beginning of that MDMR Mississippi Department Marine Research call. I want you to hear more, a different segment of that CETO, that's S-E-A-T-O-W call.

Listen. It looks like you're on Horn Island, correct? Yes, we're on Horn Island. Yes. All right. Is the both sinking or you have it a ground? We are sinking, yes. Is it a ground is the question?

No, we're not a ground. We are in 17 foot of water. We're in 31 foot of water. All right, have to ask. Where do you, and what do you want to do? Do you want to be towed back? I want to get this boat on sank and towed back, yes. All right.

What would you like you told to, sir? You can tow it to Ocean Springs or Fort Bayou on. You know what just struck me? He's got reception. Why is everybody saying you can't make calls, and you can't take pictures because there's no reception. He's out in the middle of the water at those coordinates, and he's got reception.

Remember that? Remember that Alexis Tereschuk, Crime Stories Investigated Reporter? Yes. We were told at the beginning that items were not deleted off Nolan Wilson Wilson's phone, but he wasn't posting because there wasn't reception, but they're out in the middle of the water and they've got reception. They do. He has really good reception, and you can hear it clearly throughout this call.

But the other, the stories maybe have changed a few times. First it was he didn't have any reception. The other was, oh, nobody took their phones on the island because, you know, you had to wait through some water to get to it. And they even said, well, you know, this is salt water, not freshwater, as if that matters to your phone when you drop it into it. And then, but there are videos from the island. There are, even some of his friends are in videos from the island.

So people clearly had their phone. and the other friend was arguing when one of the people were talking about the videos that people worry about that have said that it was him. His friend was seen in the video screaming, give me back my phone. The phones were there. Other kids had their phones. Before I discount claims that Nolan did not have reception, I don't know what carrier he had, maybe he didn't have reception. My point is, why everybody's screaming to shut this investigation down, I don't know, because these are very rudimentary facts. that we don't have the answers to.

You know, he is talking about the boat taking on water. We are sinking, come and get us. I want this boat unsanked and towed back. But, interesting, we learn that that very boat took multiple trips later that very same night. So first, at 9.56 a.m., the boat leaves the arrasy, It arrives at Horn Island at 1114. So at around 4 o'clock, there is a call to the Coast Guard about the boat. NBC News got a hold of it.

We're sinking. Can you all please come? And is everybody on board in good health otherwise? Yeah, everybody talks to it. Everybody's on board. So does that mean Nolan is on there? Who was on that boat? At 431, the boat leaves Horn Island and it is towed approximately three miles and then the tow ends.

So after three miles, they go back to the original dock. Okay? They arrive at 5.44 p.m. So it looks like this is where Horn Island is and this is where the original dock is that I am referring to. I looked it up and El Camino Real Road. is in Gulf Hills, Mississippi, which is right above Ocean Springs. So I'm wondering if this is the house where they got the phone. Now the boat travels to Fort Bayou.

At 606, the boat returns to the original dock. Then from the original dock, the boat goes back to Fort Bayou, and then they go to the boat launch, and it is put onto the trailer and moved by the vehicle. Did they drop people off at the original dock, travel to Fort Bayou, pick somebody up, and go back to that original dock? And then, from there, why was there an hour and 13 minute time gap? This boat was sinking hours before, and then they're just having it docked for an hour and 13 minutes. You would think they'd want to get that boat out of the water ASAP.

That's from the real TikTok detective and from NBC. So it doesn't sound to me, Dave Mack, that the boat was sinking because they're going all over in the boat. So if the boat's not sinking, why the Cito call? Why the distress call? Nancy, the one thing you have to remember on that first CETO call, you know, you hear them saying, we're in 30 feet of water, we're sinking, we need to be unsank and towed. But if you follow along with that communication, the CETO call, company reaches out to a local captain nearby and says, hey, we've got a boat. Can you go take a look?

And the captain nearest to the boat says, hey, I just got a call from the owner of that boat. He says, they've resolved the problem and don't need us anymore. So, and this happened during the course of 10 minutes, Nancy. So they're calling for help and then not calling for help. So something was definitely going on with this Triton 21 footer that they cannot explain. Okay. Because as you just- Well, hold on. Before we give that, I'm trying to look at this, Dave Mack, from both sides,

because the facts are very murky. Could they have thought the boat was sinking? Was it taking on water? And then they figured it out and fixed it and called off the toe? Maybe. But that takes me back to. this emergency call. So again, we don't know the truth about the claim

the boat was sinking because it sure as heck doesn't look like it was. So why the Cito call? That leads me back to the original sound from the Mississippi Department of Marine Resources. With me now is Todd Shippley, digital expert. Todd, listen to this. Thank you. Okay.

Detail assistant, Vicki speaking. How can I help you? Hey, we're at the west tip of corn and our village pump stocked working. We're going, we're sinking. Can you all please come? We have a membership. All right, of course. How far is the water coming up, sir?

Can you give me a description? Ancles? Hello? What you say? Hey. Is the, yes. How far is the water coming up, sir? It's coming up. We're just thinking, I don't know, like we're going down there.

Joining us tonight, Todd Shipley, digital cybercrime expert, former Detective Sergeant Reno, 25 years in law enforcement and author of surviving a cyber attack and author of investigating internet crimes. Solving crimes in cyberspace, you can find Todd at Dark Intel. info. Todd, how can I tell if this is real? Well, I think there's several things that we've got to figure out about that video is its origination. Now, it was supposedly originally gotten from the government agency that supplied it.

It doesn't sound like it's a complete video to me to begin with because there should be more conversation. So where's the rest of the video would be my, or the audio. Oh, there's a lot more. Okay. There's a lot more, Todd. Okay, go ahead. That would have been my first question is where's the rest of the audio?

Then we can start to begin to forensically look at the audio to try to figure out and pull out the voices in the background. Because the question is, what are the people saying in the background? And what exactly are they doing? What sounds are in the background? Are they actually at the place that they say they are based on noise in the background and other things that are happening? So, I mean, we can look at a lot of those other things within the audio itself to try to identify what's there and what these people are saying. Pull out those individual quotes and try to isolate them based on what they're saying and slow it down, speed it up, that kind of thing, and pull out the background noise so that there's nothing else so we can just isolate those things.

There's a several things that can be done with this. To all the members of the panel, I want you to listen carefully to this, without, reading the transcription. One more time. Well, as I said, there's some of the things that we can do is we can isolate the different tones, the different signal pieces that are coming through there in the audio, isolate the individual voices, take out the main speaker that's being talked to the, excuse me, sorry, I'm just screwed that up. And start again, we can take that. and isolate the individual people that are in there and try to identify who they are.

And that's done digitally. We can actually just isolate the different streams that are there and pull out those different audio pieces. Detail assistant, Vicki speaking. How can I help you? Hey, we're at the West Tip of Horn and our village stopped working. We're sinking. Can you all please come? We have a membership.

Oh, right, of course. How far is the water coming up, sir? Can you give me a description? Ancles. Hello? Hey. Yes, how far is the water coming up, sir? It's coming up.

We're just thinking, I don't know, like we're going down now. Todd Shipley, the words, a man saying, wake the F up, I can discern that without reading it on the transcript. where you hear someone say, OMG, I can make that out. I can make out what I think is don't die. They're screaming. What can you make out of this?

Because if this is real, this changes the course of the investigation, Todd Shipley. Well, it definitely does. And those are the things that we want to focus on. So we would look at adjusting the game, you know, taking out the static noise, we use tools to filter out different parts of the speech so that we can isolate that that's being said and try to adjust it and make it more understandable. So there's editing techniques that we can use to try to figure out exactly what's being said, because that items in the foreground of the audio being the two people speaking on the phone are what we want to remove. We want to get to those other conversations in the background and try to isolate those by reducing the static that's there and adjusting the game higher so we can understand what's being said better.

There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at bellair direct.com. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. I don't quite get it to Elliot Connie, psychotherapist, and also. author, if items have been doctored like the pictures I was describing earlier where a young man was faced down on the beach getting beaten by a group of guys, it's not Nolan. I'm not sure the incentive for pouring gas on the flame.

But we have to listen to this and we have to try and discern the truth. Yeah, I think that's true. And I share your confusion. Like, I don't understand. Actually, I have a little bit of an idea. I don't understand why people would pour gasoline on this fire other than comfort. Like, people want to believe that this was an accidental drowning to the point where anybody asking any questions is experiencing massive amounts of hate online, including Nolan's mother

and family and father. And I think it's really important to ask these questions. To the point of the audio that we've been watching, there actually is a version of this that a sound engineer has done exactly what Todd was just talking about. about removing the foreground noise and enhancing the background noise. And you can clearly hear them saying things like wake the F up, Nolan. And the very one thing that you can clearly hear in all of these versions is them screaming Nolan, which to your point would turn this investigation in a very different direction

just by knowing that Nolan was on that boat. And I think it's important that we ask these questions. I'm so glad that you are on top of this because we need people like you with your platform that don't look like people like me advocating for truth because people have such a motivation to protect these kids and I don't fully understand it when the motivation should be pursuing justice and truth speaking of attacks on no one's mother listen the only question that we have is what happened to our son that that is the only question um we have consistently been degraded by the public. There's been questions about our parenting, our GoFundMe, this, that and

other. I've been called a racist. I am a health care provider, and I take my job very seriously. I love everyone. And it's just, it's been... Not only is Nolan's family getting death threats, reportedly, but so are the so-called friends that were on the boat. Well, I mean, with everything going on on social media right now with people saying the crazy things that they're saying, I would never want to take the attention off of Nolan and his family. They don't deserve that. And, you know, for own personal reasons, I mean, I've gotten thousands of death threats. My family's got thousands of death threats. I just, I couldn't bring myself to go because, you know, I got to put my own safety first. And if that means, you know, missing my friend's funeral.

I mean, it's horrible. And I wish I could have been there. But, you know, that's what's been going on, you know? That is from the Officer Tatum show. Not only that, apparently law enforcement is getting threatened. Our community is grieving the tremendous loss of Nolan Wells, who has loved and treasured by everyone. Nolan's family deserves answers, and our community deserves answers.

Every death in the county, except those of natural causes and non-criminal car wrecks, are presented to your grand jury. Many people don't know that. We have handled death investigations in this manner my entire career. Nolan's case is being handled the same way with the same care and the same commitment to the truth that we handle all death investigations. I understand the public's urgency to know what happened to Nolan, but we are not taking time for time's sake. We are taking the time required to complete the work this investigation demands.

Since Nolan was reported missing, local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies have worked around the clock investigating what happened to him. Every piece of evidence must be examined. Every credible lead must be followed to its conclusion. Every witness interview must be analyzed in context of all other evidence. The pressure for answers does not change what the work requires. Our responsibility to Nolan and our community is to complete this investigation thoroughly. carefully, without compromise,

supported by the evidence and worthy of the confidence of the people we serve. That is the elected district attorney in that jurisdiction. Apparently, everyone is getting threatened and attacked. That's not a very good climate in which to do your job.

Is it Dr. Thomas Coyne, the chief medical examiner out of Tallahassee? District 8, toxicologist, pathologist, neuropathologist, because everybody's taking heat. They're probably afraid to even walk to their car.

It does sound like a tenderbox out there. Yeah, no, no, I would, I certainly wouldn't want to be involved in that investigation myself as well. So you can get pretty heated pretty quickly. Dr. Coyne, sadly, you're getting dragged into it right now. Dr. Coyne, I need to talk to you about the body. I understand why Nolan Wells's lungs were removed from his body and that the second examiner did not. have them. He cannot complete his independent autopsy because he can't look at the lungs. I'm sure the

doctor is looking at the lungs in Mississippi because they think you drowned. But why the throat? Why has the initial medical examiner kept the throat? Well, I'll say anytime that you investigated drowning, it's considered to be a diagnosis of exclusion, right? So you have to figure out why a person went into the water in the first place and why they couldn't get out. And let's assume, you know, in this case, there was trauma that happened to a person or something that prevented him from getting out of the water. Well, if there was, let's say, a battery or a fight that occurred perhaps with injury to him and to his person, if a person, let's say, was maybe strangled or there was injury to the neck,

if a person's been in the body of water for several days, especially floating face down, there's probably going to be some considerable decomposition. And one of the way that we determine if there's trauma of the neck or if there's been, like to say, strangulation, is if there are hemorrhage in the neck muscles surrounding the airway, and if there's fractures to the cartilage and bones that are within the neck. But if there's some considerable decomposition, the blood that's within the major neck vessels can begin to leak out into the surrounding muscles and make it very difficult for you to differentiate actual hemorrhage from artifact of decomposition.

So what they may be doing is preserving the neck itself to digest away all those tissues to really examine the bones, a highway bone, and the trapeal cartilage to get a better idea of whether or not there's any trauma or fracturing to those structures. That's the only thing I can think of that why you would want to keep those particular structures. Understand that there's no significant or no specific finding at autopsy that allows you to diagnose drowning, even the lungs. So the lungs may have evidence of fresh water or something.

salt water, you know, by looking under the microscope, but you can't tell whether that was active or passive movement of water into the lungs, that there's a body that was thrown into the water after death or a person who actively drowned. And so I don't know why they're saving the lungs, but the neck structures, I can make the argument that they're trying to get a better look at the neck cartilage as well as the bone, the highway bone in the neck. So, Dr. Coyne, that was a lot. But two things, jump out at me, number one, are you telling me

that the neck, Nolan Wells' neck, may have been retained by the initial medical examiner because the medical examiner cannot tell the difference in a bruise or damage in life,

such as a fight, a strangulation, can't tell that from blood diffusion post-mortem during decomp? Well, there's, yes, there's, there's, that's one of the possible reasons. You know, um, your neck muscles are, have a lot of what's called myoglobin, red, uh, proteins that are present within the tissue. You have the blood that's, uh, within the jugular and carotid arteries that are along those muscles in your neck, decomposition can discolor everything red, can allow movement of blood into tissue.

And so if there is some confusion about whether or not hemorrhage in tissues due to decomposition or due to actual injury, they may do a deeper look at those structures. And so that can include microscopic sections, you know, take the actual tissue sections from that area looking at it under a microscope and perhaps also removing all tissues from those structures to just look at the cartilage. That's a lot of words, Coyne. You know, I like you, Dr. Coyne. I respect you.

But just as a yes, no, if I can even form the question accurately. Are you telling me the medical examiner, the initial medical examiner may have kept Nolan's throat because he can't tell the difference in an attack on the neck versus decomp, blood? blood dispersion during decomp? If there was significant decomposition, that may be one of the reasons. Okay, so I'm taking that yes, that could be it.

So, yeah, that yes, absolutely. I can't think of any other reason. You know, in drowning, sometimes you have less than 10% of drowning. There's the hypothetical dry drowning where a person can have a spasm of the neck muscles once you swallow water. But there's no physical finding that you could look at at autopsy that would prove that. So I can't imagine they would save the neck for that reason. The only reason I can think of is that they're looking at the underlying structures a little more clearly. So I don't think I need my medical degree. And I don't think I have to be the chief medical

examiner district there in state of Florida to figure out the first. first medical examiner kept his throat for a reason. What is the reason? Why the throat? Why not the foot? Why not the hand? Why the throat? There's something about the throat that the medical examiner is concerned about. You just heard Coyne explain it very clinically and in depth. I want to ask you something else. Can I see Dr. Coyne, please? Dr. Coyne, we were just showing you autopsy

results and it's from the second medical exam the second doctor that that's it thank you control room on the back of Nolan's neck is deep subcutaneous reddening of the tissue

I've had one doctor who I respect highly tell me that that was pooling of the blood post mortum why I don't buy that because it wasn't pulled anywhere else on his body his back. So why there? It's not pooling. I don't believe that. Then somebody else said, oh, that

happened because his head was on the block at autopsy. Well, the block at autopsy is usually four by 13. That is 8 by 12. Plus, that doesn't make sense. You don't bruise post-mortem. So there would not be markings on his body from the autopsy. You can't bruise after you're dead. Your blood's not pumping. No, that's not correct. It's not bruising. It's just red discoloration. If it was actual hemorrhage or hemorrhage in the tissue, which is a bruise, then they would have called it hemorrhage in the tissue.

They're calling it red discoloration. When a body, especially a decomposing body, is on its back, has to get transported from wherever the body is recovered to the autopsy facility. It remains in the autopsy facility until the autopsy is performed. Then the head is cut open to reflect the scalp back. So first of all, if there was significant hemorrhage there, the first of first autopsy should have noted that. I don't know what their findings are.

But understand that that virtue, the process of reflecting the scalp to open the head and then sending the body off to do that second autopsy can also contribute to discoloration just from drying artifact. But when a body lays on its back, especially a body at their significant post-mortem interval, yeah, you can certainly have red discoloration just from leakage of both skeletalum. muscle proteins as well as blood from the all the capillaries and blood vessels back here and it stains the tissue and very common to get it in the back of your head you can also get it on your back but mind you they're not reflecting the back to look at those tissues in the back but they are opening in the head and so that's probably why you only see that red discoloration report there I believe you're saying, I'm trying to interpret this from a layperson's point of view, that out of his whole body, he had blood settling on the back of his head at his occipital?

They're only looking at the back of his head, right? They're not opening up his back. When they do the autopsy, the autopsy performed by a Y incision that's created in front, and those tissues are reflected backwards. They're saying that's red discoloration because it's different color from the normal color. of the occipital bone. They're also, from that photo, they're just putting a red marker

across the back of the occipital bone. So where's the hambers in the tissue? To me, that didn't settle anything, but we can't settle anything because we don't have the full autopsy. So we're like the five blind guys, feeling different parts of the elephant trying to figure out what is it?

Okay. We can't sign off until we address the Katie issue. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, Alexis Teres-Chuk, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter, but the friends on the boat say, Nolan wanted to stay behind because of a girl he just met named Katie. Katie has been found, and she says no. He said he was leaving with his friends.

Do I have that much right? 100%. Let's take a look at what Katie sister says. Put it up on the screen, please. Katie had a conversation assumed Nolan was getting ready to get on the boat that he came out in. Katie made it home. She was on another boat, different people.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. Katie assumed the friends telling him to get on the boat would not have left him. Dave Mack. Okay, see, I thought, just stopped recording. I thought she said some more stuff. Okay. All right. Dave Matt, crime stories. What is Katie stating through her sister? She is saying that she did not, Nolan did not stay with her on Horn Island, that she thought he was going back with the same people he came with.

And by the way, got to add this, Nancy, Katie McCormick has been working with investigators. has been fully cooperative with them, the Wells family, and she says flat out that he did not stay with her. He went back. If you know or think you know anything about this case, for either side, dial 228-769-3063. 228-769-3063. There is a $125,000 reward for information leading to the truth of Nolan Wells' death.

We remember American hero Corporal Albert Gomez, White Settlement PD, Texas, passed away in the line of duty, leaving behind his wife, Christina, and daughter, Ariani, American hero, Corporal Albert Gomez. Thank you to our guests, but especially you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray, signing off for tonight. I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.