Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - OJ Simpson: Coming soon to a golf course near you?

Episode Date: March 7, 2017

OJ Simpson could be months away from walking out of the Nevada prison where he’s served nine years of a 33-year sentence for a Las Vegas armed robbery. The former NFL star is expected to be freed on parole in October. Jim Moret covered the trial where Simpson was acquitted on murder charges in the killings of his ex-wife and a Brentwood waiter and later for when Simpson was convicted in a robbery trial. Nancy Grace and Moret discuss Simpson’s life behind bars and his prospects when he becomes a free man in this episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. The O.J. Simpson murder case was the first true reality show for the country. He killed her because he couldn't have her. Absolutely 100% not guilty. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. That trail of blood from Bundy through his own Ford Bronco and into his house in Rockingham is devastating proof of his guilt. Poorly trained personnel from LAPD has contaminated, compromised,

and corrupted DNA evidence in this case. After more than seven months of relentless publicity, the double murder trial of O.J. Simpson will unfold before the only people who really count in deciding his fate, the jury. We, the jury, in the above entitled action, find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder in violation of penal code section 187A, a felony upon Nicole Brown Simpson, a human being, as charged in count one of the information. Two people, a beautiful woman and a young man, dead in the driveway. The woman nearly decapitated, her head still attached to her neck by the thin skin behind the neck bone. Yes, I'm talking about Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown because even now,

it's not over. OJ Simpson is set to walk free on parole. Yes, OJ Simpson is set to be released as early as October. What in the hay? This is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us. And with me, of course, is Alan Duke. But special guest joining me is Jim Murray. Jim, please help me. You and I covered the O.J. Simpson case like nobody's business. And I was miserable when the jury did not convict him of double murder.

Then years later, I remember saying, Jim, and I think I said it to you, don't worry. He'll turn back up like a bad penny. Sure enough, he did. What is this business about him getting out in October? Well, you know, Nancy, he's in jail right now for a totally unrelated incident, and that's a kidnapping. It's when he went to Las Vegas for a friend's wedding, found out that some of his memorabilia, which he claimed was his and was stolen, was at a hotel, and he went there to get it. His memorabilia that was sold? That memorabilia that was sold that memorabilia yeah that memorabilia you know effectively he he had a 33 million dollar judgment against him for the goldman family

he had a wrongful death suit and he did everything he could to avoid paying anything and and frankly that memorabilia should have gone to satisfy that judgment but he wanted it for himself and he went with some friends two of them had guns he was convicted and and many people believe that the the sentence was much greater than it otherwise would have been in vegas and it was payback for the non the not guilty verdict in the murder case uh wait a minute let me understand something so jim Murray, three guys come storming into your place, two of them armed, and you don't think he should do his full sentence? I think his sentence was far greater than anybody else involved in that case.

Everybody else is out of prison. He's not. He got, I think, 30 years in prison. Look, I think it was payback. There's no question in my mind. I'm not saying that I want him to walk around free, but I believe it was payback. You and I differ on this. Because he was the mastermind.

The others were his minions. He was the mastermind. Mastermind, Orenthal James Simpson may be released from prison as early as this October after just nine years behind bars on a 33-year sentence. Now, as you will recall, Orenthal James Simpson, the star NFL player, walked free on a double murder of his wife, Nicole Brown, and friend, a waiter, Ron Goldman. He walked free on that, lived a high life until he just couldn't stop himself. And this has been adjudicated in court. He gets some of his flunkies, and they go into a hotel, and they arm rob a guy at gunpoint to take back memorabilia the guy was going to sell, claiming it was his.

And now he's whining that he should get out, and he is getting out on good behavior. He was found guilty in 2008 of 12 counts of kidnapping, robbery, and assault with a deadly weapon. Was there any doubt that he was the mastermind, Jim Murray? No, but I would also call it the gang that couldn't shoot straight. It wasn't a really well-planned, executed operation. It was a spur-of-the-moment thing.

But, Nancy, let's just go back to the murder case. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, hold on. Hold your horses. It was a spur-of-the-moment amateur. You know what? When you have the wrong end of a gun in your face, it doesn't matter if it's a sharpshooter or an amateur on the other end. You know a gun?

It makes a big man little and a little man big. And that's what happened that day. I don't care who's got the gun up my nostril. I want him to go to jail. And I want to live to see the next day. And he did go to jail. And he is in jail. I'm simply telling you he's been in jail.

Let me tell you something, Jim Ray. This ain't the apple-dumpling gang, okay? So just stop all that business. Now, what were you going to say? I'm just telling you that he did more time than anybody else involved. I get it. He's the mastermind. I give you that.

But I'm still telling you that his sentence was far greater than anyone else involved. I get it. He's the mastermind. I give you that. But I'm still telling you that his sentence was far greater than anyone else's. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? No. It's simply a fact. I think you're such a sympathizer. You and I are on the same team.

You just keep saying, he got more time. Well, fine. He's lived like a king behind bars. You know what? And I think it was payback because everyone, including the judge, including the prosecutor in Vegas, were angry that O.J. Simpson walked. And I understand the anger. However, I also understand that that murder case was flawed for a number of reasons. I think that there were mistakes made. I think that one of the detectives, Mark Furman,

just about did that case in. I think that the makeup of the jury, which both sides knew would be partial to O.J. Simpson's side, that did the case in. I think there were a lot of problems with the case. Well, see, to me, that case supersedes, it transcends male, female, white, black, Hispanic, inner city, outside suburbs. I mean, to me, it was so clear as the nose on your face. And now all the evidence that has come out since the trial, I mean, from the Bruno Mali shoes that he owned that were tracked in Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman's blood, to him flunking the polygraph to the tune of a minus 40 something. I mean, it just keeps on coming. Hold on. coming uh hold on i want to quickly say thank you not only to jim array for being with us but to simply safe our sponsor making our podcast possible today simply safe makes home security

affordable at $14.99 a month if you log on to simply safe.com slash nancy you get another 10 off so many cases I've covered. And my first question is, did they have a home alarm system? Why didn't it go off? Did the perpetrator know the code? What happened? What went wrong? And they didn't have one.

Now that is anecdotal. But I can tell you this. I have an alarm system. My mom has an alarm system. My brother has an alarm system. I even keep the thing on when I'm here with the twins with me because I just can't protect them enough. So simply say thank you.

And I guess that's what you need to keep somebody like OJ Simpson from breaking into your house with his apple dumpling gang like Jim Ray wants me to think they are. This guy took 800 items at gunpoint from a Vegas hotel room, November 2007. And he's done about nine years behind bars. Don't worry about Simpson when he gets out. He gets around $25,000 a month. That's what some teachers make in a year. $300,000 a year, $2.7 million throughout his prison stay,

during his prison stay from this NFL pension. I mean, and what about life behind bars? What has it been like for Simpson Jim Murray first of all I need simply safe if I'm going to do this podcast because I need protection from you you're beating me up Nancy you're killing me I'm sorry I'm gonna lay off it's just that you know let me no I'll just so I just keep remember those crime scene photos I just keep remembering those crime scene photos. I just keep remembering. And that photo of Nicole Brown's battered face, all beaten up, where everybody would turn the other eye, turn away because he's an NFL star and let him keep beating her. Nancy, I was among a small group of reporters who, unfortunately, were invited to see the autopsy photos.

And they were life-size photos shown to the jurors. And I'll tell you something. I wish I hadn't seen them. They were horrific. The way you described Nicole can't even in words portray the horror that these pictures did. Look, I feel the same outrage you do. You don't sound outraged. When you talk about – well, because I've had 22 years to reflect on this,

and when I think about the pension that you received, it sounds horrible. No, no, no. Well, I'm resigned to the fact that it happened, and my goal is to understand why it happened and to see what do you do if and when another case like this comes along? Because you can't undo this case, but you can learn from it. But you are passionate, and I respect that. He will need to win over four of seven commissioners at his parole hearing, and that will probably take place this summer. He will receive a certain number of, quote, points in order to get out. Now, let me ask you this, Jim. I never really understand how anything happens in California, okay? Because it's, let me just say euphemistically, unlike any other criminal justice system

in the union, let me understand this. So could it be like Manson and Manson's followers, they keep coming up for parole and they never get it? Could that happen? Could he not get it? Well, yes. And his parole hearing will actually be just outside of Vegas because he's in a Nevada jail, a Nevada prison. But look, he's had, he's exhibited

Oh yeah, you're right, I'm sorry. Just for a moment there, I was thinking about the murder versus Vegas. Of course, and that's where the outrage occurred, really, in California. And you know, he's shown good behavior. He supervises the

men's gym in prison. His sister goes to visit him. He does what? He supervises the men's gym. What way? He supervises the men's gym? Yes, he does. Because this man has not been working out.

He has not been working out. Well, his sister says he's within a few pounds of his weight when he got in, what is it, nine years ago? And he's in pretty good shape now, she says. I have not seen a photo of him recently, but the last time I saw him, he didn't look too great. And then there was the girlfriend. Remember her? Yeah, of course I do.

She kept being beaten up and would make all these excuses. Oh, I fell down, this, that, and the other thing. You know, she never had any of those accidents before she got slung up with Simpson. Well, and don't forget, Nicole Brown Simpson called the police more than eight times, and they were called to their home and he was never arrested. So, you know, the outrage has to extend to that as well. Now, what, if anything, if any role does this last documentary, O.J. Made in America and the miniseries,

The People v. O.J. Simpson, you know, with Cuba Gooding. Yeah. In any way do you think that that is affecting this? Because, you know, it just won awards. I know. It's interesting. It's fascinating how the people who portray O.J. Simpson and all of these supporting characters become almost folk heroes, and yet it was such a really horrific crime, and it really captivated America in the worst sort of way.

I was frankly surprised that the FX series did so well. I thought no one cared about O.J. Simpson, and apparently the mania is still very much alive and kicking. The documentary, I thought, was great because it really showed the background of who he was and how huge he was in sports, but how he was divorced from the struggles of any African-Americans in the inner city, how he was not living that life, not supportive of that, and really focused on one person, O.J. Simpson. And I think that came through. I hope it doesn't affect the parole hearing, because frankly, I don't think it should. Let me tell you a story. Let me tell you a true story.

You know, I was working as a county prosecutor in inner city Atlanta, trying nothing but violent felonies when Simpson happened. And through a fluke, no resume, no demo, real nothing, I ended up being invited to co-host with Johnny Cochran. Right. I remember seeing you with Johnny Cochran. Well, at first, yeah. And at first I actually said no. I had no intention of leaving prosecution to go be on TV.

But my elected district attorney, the longest serving in the country at that time, decided to finally retire. And I knew the newly elected DA would fire all the top litigators. So I'm like, sure, here I come. And I moved to New York with two boxes of clothes, curling iron, and $300. What could go wrong? So I moved to New York, and many times I would ask it over and over, thinking he'd give me a different answer. But I'd say, Cochran, did Simpson do it? Just tell me.

Every time he'd kind of like raise his hands up and have a little smile, he'd go, jury acquitted him. That's all he would say. He would never say, oh, H-E-L-L, no, he didn't do it. He'd just say, jury acquitted him that's all he would say he would never say oh h-e-double-l no he didn't do it just say jury acquitted him but you know you know you you knew johnny very well there you have it i i met johnny cochran when i was 26 i was a young reporter in los angeles and he was so gracious to me well actually every time i'd ever seen him since he was a he was a gracious to me. Actually, every time I've ever seen him since, he was a very decent, honorable man. I wonder if he made a deal with the devil when he took that case because it just...

Well, I tell you, his wife is just the sweetest lady and super smart, Johnny Cochran's wife. And she's a business person. Yeah. Very, very good business. And, you know, his children, super nice. And this Simpson thing, I'm telling you, everybody is seemingly being cursed by Simpson. I agree. So how has Simpson avoided paying this $33.5 million civil order? I know through a variety of means.

For instance, he moved to Florida. Right. Because in Florida, there is a law that blocks any forced sale of a residence through a lawsuit. So he can hold on to his mansion in Florida. I don't think a creditor can attach or get a hold of or garnish a pension. They can't. So he's got this huge pension of $25,000 a month, and nobody can get it. But then all that memorabilia of his over all the years you know jerseys heisman rings

blah blah all that that could be sold to satisfy the 33 million but never has happened i'll tell you what's what will make you even more angry when he was in la county i don't want to stroke out while the children are still just nine years old, okay? Because, you know, I'll tell you why. Wait a minute. Let me tell you why I don't want to stroke out right now over Simpson. Because my children are only nine, and I don't want me to go get buried, you know, back home in Macon, Georgia,

and my husband run out and, you know, marry some tramp, and then she raises my children. She may be a wonderful woman who cares for him just as much as you, Nancy. You're really, you're being soft. Yeah, but what about my children? She may love them as much. She can love him all she wants to. Nobody's going to, hey, you know what? You are going to get in trouble because nobody's going to love him more than wants to but nobody's gonna hey you know what you are gonna get in trouble nobody's gonna love more than mommy okay so i cannot stroke out about oj simpson but okay what

were you saying i just had to go off on that go ahead every single day that he was in custody during that trial there were footballs and pictures and various items of memorabilia that he would sign to generate income while he was in custody. I hear silence, which is never good from you. Oh, that is so painful. How much are we talking about? How much do you think that he... We're talking about hundreds of thousands, if not more. So every day? Every day? Every day.

Yes. Like a machine. Just stacks and stacks of photos and you name it. And they were all sold. Like a machine. Yeah, I know. I don't want you to stroke out. Take a deep breath and just know.

That hurts me so much. All that money should go to the victim's family. I know it does. Okay, what was his life like? What was his life like behind bars? Look, I don't think it's great by our standards. I think he's made the best of it. I think that his life before he went behind bars, frankly, was over, life as he knew it,

because he was a pariah after the murder case. I was at the dance recital the day of the murders because both of our daughters were in the same dance class. And I see him, I saw him that year and I saw him the year before, and he was a hero before these murders. People loved him. They worshipped him. And he lived for that. So when he became a pariah, life as he knew it was over. So regardless, yes, I agree, he should not have the memorabilia.

He shouldn't have the money. But he missed the one thing that he craved the most, and that's the adulation, the fame, the freedom to go anywhere, anytime, and be loved. That's over, and it will always be over, I think. And frankly, it pales in comparison to what the victims paid. They paid with their lives. I get it. But he suffered.

Not enough, I agree, but he he suffered not not enough i agree but he suffered and i also think that he has a good chance of getting out when he's up for parole on this hearing to excuse me excuse me excuse me to quote lego batman i hate everything you just said okay i don't want to hear how he how he has been through so much because that is just not working for me now let's talk about his life behind bars which you i've been dressed down by lego so let's talk about his life behind bars prisoner 1027820 yes i have it. That was 1027820, is treated like royalty behind bars at Love Lock in Nevada. He gets the same blue uniform, has a bunk bed, has a sink and a cellmate. He gets up at 630 like everybody else.

He has cold cereal with a muffin and fruit. Then he heads to his work shift. He hangs out at the prison gym getting other people to do his work. But that's where the similarity ends. Okay?

So many perks he has had behind bars. He has been able to pay people to clean his room. He has been able to pay for special meals. He has had extra visitation. He watches sports on his TV in his cell. He watches sports religiously.

He gets visits from a former manager. He has very few limits on what he can view. I mean, it goes on and on and on. I mean, to basically pay to have a butler behind bars? Thoughts? Sounds like a nice retirement home. Come on. And you guys are acting like he's been through so much.

I know. Jim, what if OJ calls you and says, meet me in Brentwood, we're going to play golf, and this is after he gets out of prison. Would you go play golf with him? No. No, but I would love to interview him. Of course.

I really would love to interview him. And if that interview just happened to take place on a golf course? If that interview just happened to take place on a golf course. I would watch. I would interview him while he golfs. I have no problem with that. I like interviewing people in a setting that makes them feel comfortable because they tend to open up. Where do you – well, of course, he's going to go back to Florida. Nancy, are you telling me you would not want to interview OJ Simpson?

Honestly. You would absolutely interview OJ Simpson. Hey, wait. With a golf club in her hand? My 84-year-old judge, he would tell the jury, it is your duty to make all witnesses speak the truth and impugn perjury on no one. In other words, both of the things you just said can be true. Would I want to interview him no he is a murderer and he has walked free and not only has he killed two innocent people

he also abused lady justice by laughing in her face after walking free on a double murder committing other crimes such as beating his girlfriend horrifically and then this armed robbery in Nevada he spit in her face so no I would not interview him would I do it yes of course knowing everything he would say would be a big fat lie yeah but he has not been suffering in prison I can tell you that he eats like a horse he exercises he's got a flat screen tv okay i don't have a flat screen tv in my bedroom no the twins don't have a flat screen tv in their bedroom to me he's had the good life behind bars so now he's going to get out. Obviously, he's going to go home to Florida, right? I would think so, yes.

That's home for him. Now, a source from behind bars has quoted Simpson as saying, only two people alive know who committed the Brentwood murders. Him, O.J. Simpson, and Al Cowlings, A.C. He is the guy that drove Simpson in his white Bronco when I guess Simpson was, what, holding himself hostage, threatening if police came, he'd shoot himself. Okay, he held himself hostage.

And somehow, it worked. It did work, you're right. You know what I've forgotten, Nancy? What? I have to say and your fans know this you've got so many millions of people who love you and I understand why because you're lovable however what I forgot was my need for a Kevlar vest when I'm being interviewed by you just for protection hey I'm gonna

tell a story about Jim Ray and I knoway. And I know you hate this. I know you hate this, but I'm going to do it. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. Okay. So when I grew up, we would watch everything wholesome, right? And one of the things we could watch, don't get mad at me, Jim. Okay. Don't is Gidget.

And you know where I'm going with this. Did you know, Alan, that Jim Murray's dad is Moondoggy on the Gidget movies? Yes. And when I found that out... That's right, James Darren. You could just say anything

and I would still be in total awe of you because when I was a young girl, I thought your dad was the coolest guy ever. Moondoggy. And that's something I've had to live with. Every girl I've ever young girl, I thought your dad was the coolest guy ever. Moon donkey. And that's something I've had to live with. Every girl I've ever liked had a crush on my dad. So imagine that.

Why should today be any different? You got all of his good looks, though. Well, Nancy's always reminded me of Gidget, actually. That's a compliment. Gidget with a machete. You know, I wonder how this makes the Goldmans and the Browns feel. I'm guessing that you've maintained a relationship with them. I've become friends with Kim Goldman, and I've known her for, oh, now, 25, 22 years, something like that.

And she, it's difficult for them. It's clearly, this is something, the pain never goes away. Every birthday, everything that happens with their families, there's a place missing. And not only are they missing Ron and Nicole, but they're missing all the things around them. Ron never got married, never had children, so there are grandchildren that are missing for the Goldmans.

You know, it's horrible. It's horrific. It's unimaginable and you know there's another thing i wanted to tell you i got some of the information from a guy his name is jeffrey felix and he is a retired ci correctional institute officer yeah and he watched over Simpson. He finally, after many, many years, wrote a book called Guarding the Jews, how O.J. Simpson became my prison BFF. Okay. Now, this is the story that Jeffrey Felix gives. He said that the whole knife thing where, you know, authorities went looking for the knife one time.

He thought it was a joke and then he said that one time Simpson told him as I mentioned the only that only two people alive knew who committed the murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman Simpson, and Cowlings. And he said that Simpson was washing his hands and looked up in the mirror. And I, and I'm talking about the guard, said, Juice, you just solved the Brentwood murders. You're looking at the murderer right in the mirror. And he goes on and says, he just gave me a glare. Quote, he gave me a kind of a dirty look. And then he kind of smiled after. He kind of shrugged it off. And that was it.

Creepy. See, if the jury had heard that, maybe it would have made a difference. I don't know. But this is what I do know. If you want your voice to be heard, go online to the Vegas Pardon and Parole, to Nevada Pardon and Parole, and let your voice be heard if you do not want Simpson to walk free. Okay, Jim Murray. Sorry, Alan.

I'm totally ignoring you because I've got Murray here with me. Jim. Look, I'm just glad to get a little bit of relief from the machete myself. I do this every morning, Jim. Every morning. You should have jumped in a little more. I noticed you didn't give me any cover earlier. I'm going to take that as a compliment.

It is a compliment. Give me your final thoughts. And don't start telling me about how he's suffered too much. Just stop. Stop right there. I haven't told you that he's suffered too much. I don't how he's suffered too much. Just stop. Stop right there. I haven't told you that he's suffered too much. I don't believe he's suffered too much. Or I will turn this car around.

I do not believe he's suffered too much. What is your takeaway? Do you think he's really going to walk? Do you think he's going to walk? I think he will walk. Yes, I do. Oh! Oh!

That hurt. Okay, go ahead. I think he will walk yes i do i i think oh that hurt okay go ahead i i think he will i i i i i have to look at this case alone because he was he was acquitted in california so the the judge the the parole board in in nevada should not hold that case against him legally. I understand ethically. I understand morally. But legally, they should not hold that other case against him. So I think they have to look at how he's behaved in prison, what his sentence was, what has transpired since. Is there any remorse? And by the way, I've never heard of any.

Remorse? I've heard of no remorse. Remorse? I shouldn't have said anything. But so I do think there's a good chance. I think there's a good chance that, hey, you know what? It sounds like a vacation. I may join Simpson because this is killing me.

You're killing me today, Nancy. Okay, Jim Ray, the next time I see you on TV. Yeah. Don't throw anything the next time you see me. You know what? I'm going to have a little faith. I'm going to go. I'm going to have a little faith.

I'm going to go out on a limb. I'm going to say no, that they will not let him go this time. Much as they have kept the Manson followers behind bars, even though they were eligible for parole on principle. So you know what? I'm calling on the pardon and parole board to do the right thing and keep this guy behind bars. That's what I'm saying.

Okay. You get to a position of power, like being on the parole board, so you can do the right thing. The right thing. And I don't care what's written in a law book, a dusty law book on a shelf. I'm talking about what is right and what is wrong. Let's see what they do. Okay, Jim Ray, the next time I see you on TV, which is probably going to be today,

I will be reaching through the screen and grabbing you by your ear and not twisting it for all the things you've said. And watch out, Duke. You're next. I want to thank, first of all, simply. I want all of your listeners to know this. I really mean this. I believe in my heart you always strive to do the right thing.

And so I respect what you're saying. Thank you, son of moon doggy. Okay. You're welcome. I love you man hey jim when did we first actually meet not on tv on the airways but when was it when was what when did we actually when did we actually meet in person yeah i don't know i remember i remember the first time I saw you, I heard angels singing. The seas parted. And I said, this is Nancy Grace. You've always been so wonderful and gracious and kind to me.

I love you, man. I really find you. I'm both attracted to you and frightened of you. It's a fascinating dynamic. As it should be. And please tell Debra Norville I said hello. I love her. I will.

I want to thank three people. First of all, to SimpliSafe, our sponsor for today, that makes home security affordable. Right or wrong, whenever I read about or hear about or cover or investigate a case that involves a home invasion, I think, did they have a system? Did they have a home alarm system? I really remember thinking about it during the Teresa Seavers case in Florida when I heard she had been bludgeoned. And I'm like, did they have an alarm system? And I found out they did. And the killer knew the code. I can't help it. That's my first reaction. I have an alarm system? And I found out they did, and the killer knew the code. I can't

help it. That's my first reaction. I have an alarm system, and I keep it on, and I am proud that SimpliSafe is our sponsor, making home security affordable for our country's families. Thank you, SimpliSafe. Alan the Duke, Duke, thank you for being with us. And a special thank you to my longtime friend, Jim Murray. I love you, man. Thank you, Nancy. Love you, too. Take care.

Hey, guys. Thank you for being with us on Crime Stories. Goodbye, friends. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.