Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - OJ SIMPSON SPINNING IN HELL: FORCED TO PAY $58M TO MURDER VICTIMS

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

More than 31 years after O.J. Simpson was found liable for the deaths of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, in a wrongful death civil trial, Simpson’s estate finally agrees to pay damages awarded to Goldman’s family in 1997. While the jury granted the families $33.5 million, Simpson’s estate has agreed to pay Ron's father, Fred Goldman, $58 million plus interest. It’s unclear what spurred the change of heart; executor Malcolm Lavergne previously swore to never pay Goldman a dollar. Although the estate accepts the $58 million claim, the executor says he expects to collect only $500,000 to $1 million total in assets. The estate plans to auction off Simpson's possessions to raise money. Though Lavergne agrees to the $58 million payout, it’s unclear whether the estate can afford the full amount. Executor Malcolm Lavergne says the estate plans to pay out as much of the sum as possible as items continue to be auctioned off. However, Lavergne claims several items were stolen, and of those that have been located, legal battles to recover them are still ongoing. One year after Simpson is acquitted in criminal court, a civil trial begins. The families of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman sue Simpson for their wrongful deaths. The civil trial lasts five months, the 12-person jury finding OJ Simpson responsible for the murders of Nicole and Ron. The jury awards $8.5 million in compensatory damages to Ron Goldman's parents, and determine Simpson should pay $25 million in punitive damages to both victims’ families. The Goldman family isn’t the only one Simpson owes money. Simpson’s estate owes federal taxes and state taxes as well. While Lavergne agrees to the Goldman settlement. He says his priority is paying off the IRS. Lavergne is doubling down on skirting the California taxes, saying the state will have to sue to recover the $637,000 claim they filed with the estate. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Chris Melcher - Celebrity Lawyer and Partner at Walzer Melcher & Yoda (with deep experience in complex family law litigation) Dr. Cheryl Arutt- Licensed Clinical and Forensic Psychologist Specializing in Trauma Recovery, PTSD and EMDR; website: CreativeEMDR.com, IG: @askdrcheryl Jon Buehler - Former Detective for Modesto Police Department, California (31 years in Robbery and Homicide), Detective in Scott Peterson Investigation Shannon Henry  -  President & Founder of SASS Go (Surviving Assault Standing Strong: a nonprofit on a mission to eradicate abuse, trafficking and violence against women and girls globally) Case Consultant, and Adjunct Professor at the University of South Carolina in the Department of Education; @sassgoglobal on FB, Instagram, X, and TikTok Alexis Tereszcuk - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. OJ. Simpson spinning in hell tonight. Forced to pay $58 million to his murder victims. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

Hi, a morning, emergency. He asked, can you send someone to my house? Or my ex-husband or my husband. or my husband who broke into my house and he's ranting and raving now he's just walked out in the front yard.

Have you been drinking? No, but he's crazy. You know, just looking at him makes me sick, but one thing that makes me feel a little bit better is I know he is spinning out right now

in hell with Satan having to be forced to pay out $58 million to his murder victim's families. This after he's stonewalled over 30 years, engaging in all sorts of nefarious activity to avoid paying the families

of the two people. He, don't look at me and smile. Take that down. I don't even want to see that. He tried every move he could to avoid paying them, and he swore he would never pay them. this as he lived the ha life a mansion in Florida another home I guess a vacation home playing golf on beautiful golf courses every day being guests in expensive restaurants hotels all across the world let's see a shot from our friends at TMZ of Orenthall James Simpson partying a hearty this as he knows oh yeah there you go he would find one Nicole Brown look-alike after the next. We've got clips of him partying all over the world, clips out the yin-yang.

Why didn't he have a job to pay off his debts? Again, that's from our buddy Harvey Levin over at TMZ. Let's get down right to it. This is where it all starts. Listen. What's the problem now? Well, my ex-husband or my husband just broke into my house, and he's ranting and raving. Now, he's just walked out in the front yard.

Have he been drinking or anything? No, but he's crazy. Is he black what I have standard? Black. What's he wearing right now? Black pants and a golf shirt. Okay. I've heard so many 911 calls from Nicole Brown.

Some of them have him beating the door down, screaming at her charmed. to just get through a lot door so he could attack her. And let's take a listen. Can you get someone over here now to 325 Gretna Green? He's back. Please. Okay. What does he look like? He's O.J. Simpson. I think you know his record.

Is he going to be over here? Okay. What is he doing there? He's just over. Wait a minute. What kind of car is he in? He's in a white bronco. But first of all, he broke the back door down to get him. Wait a minute. What's your name? What's your name?

What's your name? Okay. See the sportscaster or whatever? Yeah. Okay. Wait a minute. What if you're doing? Is he threatening you?

I think it's going to nuts. He's still yelling at you. She's still yelling at you? She's still yelling at you? To John Buehler joining us, former detective, Odesto PD, you know him well. He is one of the elite detectives that put Scott Peterson behind bars. Peterson behind bars tonight having a glass of Pruno and plotting his next appeal. Do you hear Simpson in the background screaming?

and beating on the door. Do you hear that? I hear it. Yeah, and this falls into the tail end of the domestic violence cycle that people go through, whether they're famous or not famous. And of course, in this one, there was a lot of fame involved in it. But if you back up the clock and you take a look at the relationship between Nicole and OJ, he even started pushing her a little bit when they were dating when she was 18 and he was 30. There would be little things that he would do that she apparently didn't think much of, and she let it go. And this is the problem that we run into with a charming person.

The devil walks amongst us, usually disguised in a pretty good looking frame, but they push every time. And when they get away with it, they'll push a little bit further, and eventually it ends up like this. And it's not the only one. We've had many of them. From the beginning of that evening before Nicole and Ron were slaughtered in the front yard, Simpson was angry. Now, you hear my old co-anchor, Johnny Cochran, trying to smooth it all over in front of the jury lesson.

There's Mr. Simpson kissing Denise Brown. Kissing Ms. Judith Brown. It's Mr. Lewis Brown. Talking to a friend. That's his son, Justin, when he kisses. After Sidney's dance recital, Nicole, the children, and her family leave Simpson behind. leave Simpson behind at the school and go to dinner with friends at Metzaluna in Brentwood. Nicole's mother accidentally leaves her glasses behind, and Ron Goldman, a friend of Nicole, who works at the restaurant, volunteers to drop the glasses off at Nicole's house. Goldman leaves Metzaluna at 9.45 p.m.

Not closing arguments for our friends at Court TV. So to you, Alexis Tereschuk, joining us, crime stories investigative reporter, Alexis, he was already stewing because he did not get invited to the family dinner after Sydney's recital. That started the whole thing. That was right. He wanted to go to dinner with them. Nicole at this point was done with him. She had been calling 911 over 10 times. She keeps calling. She keeps saying, you've got to come and help me. This man is going to kill me. He's here. He's breaking down the door. He's hitting me. You can hear in one of the calls. She's screaming. You can actually hear him hitting her.

So he, she says, no, you're not coming to dinner. I'm going with my friends and my family. She goes to dinner. Two hours later, Nicole Brown is dead. Shannon Henry joining us, president-founder S-A-S-S-S-S-surviving, Assault, Standing Strong. Shannon, I misspoke. I said, this is what started it. But in domestic abuse, nothing that the woman, typically a woman does, is the reason for the abuse. Him not getting invited to dinner that night after the recital was an excuse

because the beatings, the torture, the verbal abuse, the beatings to near death actually are not triggered because he didn't get invited to go out with his mother-in-law. He wanted to beat her. He wanted to kill her. her. It has nothing to do with the family get together. It has nothing to do with the family get together and it has everything to do with the fact

that this man was in control of her. We have to start thinking of these victims as in people that are inside of cages. We can't see the bars from the outside, but the bars are very much control. They are control over finances, children, your every move, your mind, your body, They're stalking. They're intimidating. And any opportunity to be violent and execute more power and control over the victim is exactly what they'll do. And this was a perfect opportunity for him.

The evening progresses. Not invited to family dinner at Mezzaluna, Simpson grabs McDonald's with his house guest, Kaelin Kato. The pair returned to Simpson's home around 9.40 p.m. Around 10.40 p.m., Kailen hears several thumps outside his room and goes to investigate. but gets distracted by the limo waiting outside Simpson's gate, hired to take him to the airport. A neighbor sees Nicole's white Akita, Cato, wandering the neighborhood alone, parking, agitated, and on closer inspection, they notice he has bloody paws.

The neighbor follows Cato to investigate, discovering Nicole and Ron's bodies at 12.10 a.m. Joining us, high-profile defense attorney, celebrity lawyer, Chris Meltzer, he is a partner at Walzer, Metcher, and Yode. Chris, thank you for being with us. You know, I've started timelines, criminal timelines, in a lot of odd ways. It can be from a photograph. It can be from a nav system when a car is turned off, and we know that moment. It can be from a watch that's broken at the time of a murder or attack.

There are many ways to start a criminal timeline. This timeline was actually started with the dog out wheeling, And the witness at trial referred to the dog as emitting a woeful cry, unlike anything the neighbor had heard before, a plaintive cry. Yeah, I mean, that really speaks to the horrific nature of that crime scene, but also Nicole's nature and having this pet that obviously loved her and was experiencing this crime scene and what happened to Nicole and really calling for. for help. So there's a lot of richness there in the prosecution, you know, kind of relating that story in the timeline. And it is confounding, you know, to think that after all of this evidence, these 911 tapes that he was acquitted in the criminal trial, it's just absolutely amazing looking back at this from so many years. Detective's Furman and Flannader go to Sensen's

nearby home to notify him of his wife's death. Furman sees what appears to be bloodstained on Simpson's Ford Bronco and decides to jump the fence to gain access to Simpson's property. Vanatter declares Simpson's home a crime scene and goes to secure a search warrant for the house around 7 a.m. Simpson leaves home at 11.10 p.m. to catch an 11.45 flight to Chicago lands 5.30 a.m. checking into the O'Hare Plaza Hotel at 6.15. 7 a.m. detectives informed Simpson of the murders over the phone and ask him to return to L.A. Simpson flies back June 13th and is handcuffed on arrival. Simpson is questioned for hours, and investigators photograph a cut on his finger. You know, it's amazing to me, John Buehler, that Furman, if this is part of some conspiracy to convict a beloved sports legend,

Furman sees at the beginning bloodstains on Simpson's Ford Bronco. At the very beginning, there's not time to create a conspiracy of any sort. not even remotely because Simpson or correction firm and he didn't even work at uh downtown at robbery homicide division he was a divisional detective in that area so he didn't even really know lang and van adder very much at the time but also his hopping the fence you can take a look at that as exigent circumstances he might have thought that oj could also be a victim nothing really wrong with what he did there but when you take a look at the whole case and you and you go to the conclusion of it excluding the jury's verdict there's no exculpatory evidence in this

case whatsoever. And when you have a premeditated murder that's carried out, it's going to be rare that you'll have an eyewitness or you'll have a videotape. But when it comes to this case, there's nobody else that they could ever determine would have any animosity towards either Nicole or Mr. Goldman because there was just nothing there. Everything, every arrow and dagger of circumstantial evidence pointed right back to OJ. I'm trying to figure out how OJ Simpson, all these decades managed to avoid paying the Goldman's and the Browns any money on the multi-million dollar civil verdict against him. Let's forge forward. Listen. 911, what are you reporting? This is AC. I have OJ in the car. Okay, where are you?

Please, I'm coming up to five freeways. Okay. Right now, we all, we're okay, but you've got to tell the plane that this is back off. He's still alive, that he's got a gun to his, Okay, hold on a minute. Monica? He just want to see his mother. Let me get them to the house. Okay, hold on a moment. Is everything else okay?

Everything right now is okay, officer. Everything is okay. All about he wants to get him to his mom. He wants to get him to his dog. Okay. So that's all I have. That's all we ask. He's got a gun here.

Okay. What's your name? My name is A.C. You know who I am. Got your . Okay. All righty sir. Hold on this moment.

I mean, let's get right down to it. He wants to go to his mother's house. Dr. Cheryl Errit joining us, clinical forensic psychologist specializing in cases just like this, every defendant I have ever had without fail, the vast majority when they skip bond, they run home to mommy and hide under the bed or in the closet. Never fails. Where do you go when you're in trouble? to Mommy. And here you have AC Cowlings, his wingman, telling the police to back off

and let Simpson go home to Mommy? Really? And he's holding himself hostage? Yes. And we also see that this is another example of a defendant making demands while he's being

arrested. And we have seen this over and over again. Power and control. He's going to call the shots he's going to say what's going to happen next. And Kelling was helping him. I mean, we remember well this low-speed chase. It went on and on and on. And, you know, there was a lot of special treatment for this man. There was a lot of privilege for this man. And, you know, these events were so devastating for the Browns and the Goldman family. They've been put through such hell all of these years, and it is really something to see this finally come to a head and to see some sort

of retribution. From KTVU. Let me understand something. John Bueller, I have never seen someone hold themselves hostage, and the police actually go along with it. And this is during the low-speed chase with people hanging off bridges with signs that go, go juice, free OJ, blah, blah, blah. What was that? And why did the police allow it? Well, you've got to remember there was a pretty big microscope on LAPD at the time. We've just come out of Rodney King a few years earlier than that. And their actions are going to be scrutinized. If OJ happened to commit suicide because they didn't do everything that they possibly could to keep that from happening,

the whole world is going to line up against them. So it's one of those things where he got special treatment throughout the time that he was dealt with because of his fame, because of the football link and because he is very charming, just like so many of these guys are. And when it comes to this, they were kind of put in a bad position because no matter what the dispatch complaint taker did, whatever the dispatchers did, L.A. County Sheriff's Department, and you throw in CHP in there along with LAPD, anything they did that would push OJ to go over the edge would be put right back on top of them big time. But also, if you really look at it, what guy who didn't kill his wife is going to be doing these kinds of antics?

So all of the things that he did after the killing just line up with the fact that he did the killings. In the last days, O.J. Simpson absolutely spinning in hell as his state forced to pay nearly $60 million on a civil verdict that happened about 30 years ago that threw all of his. conniving and scheming, he managed to avoid his entire life. 9-1-1, what are you reporting? This is AC. I have O.J. in the car. But you've got to telephone, so this is back off. He's still alive, and he's got a gun through his head. He just wants to see his mother. Let me get them to the house.

Okay, hold on a moment. Finally, after stonewalling for decades, Simpson's estate, forced to pay the families. Revenge. Revenge for his murder victim. Straight out to Alexis Torres-Chuck, Crime Stories investigative reporter. What happened? After the civil trial, O.J. Simpson was ordered to pay $33 million to Fred Goldman. He spent over three decades not paying it. O.J. Simpson dies. And finally, Malcolm Laverne, his executor of his estate, said, we are going to pay it. The Goldman family submitted an amount. They submitted $100 million dollars to the judge. The judge said, I think this isn't maliciously, but I don't think these are the

right numbers. And the judge has ordered him to pay $57 million to the Goldman family. Well, I believe that the Goldman family was including the interest on what Simpson didn't pay for all those years. Listen, the judgment for both families was $33.5 million split. Has he willingly paid anything? No. Before his death, Simpson paid just $133,000 on the $33.5 million he owed the families of Ron and Nicole. While Simpson was forced to auction his Heisman Trophy for about $250,000 and turn over the rights to video game royalties and the unpublished book, if I did it, the former Hall of Famer skirted payments by moving out to Nevada and Florida, where state law prevented the seizure of his NFL pension and residences. He is.

had his life continue over all these years. If he's had opportunities to do things, Ron didn't. From our friends at ABC, and there were reports, Alexis Tereschuk, that Ron Goldman's father was so incensed over what Simpson was doing that he tried to get payment from Simpson, because Simpson had a whole ring of cash-only businesses. So there was no record of him making money. He was making money hand over fist that Ron's dad, we were told, showed up at a couple of these signing events

where Simpson would only sign photos for stacks of money. He would not sign anything related to the murders or his civil conviction, none of that. He would sign things, basically anything but that for cash. He would charge people to go play golf with them. He would charge people money to have lunch with him or to have dinner with him. They were all paid events, and it had to be in cash. He could make $10,000, $15,000 in a day. And apparently, as the report, reports go, Goldman tried to go and collect the cash, and it was given like a bag of pennies and laughed out. This after Ron was butchered. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

So let's start at the beginning. How did? Let's talk about the cash. only ring of businesses Simpson ran. What happened? So Simpson figured out very early on that if he didn't have a record of any money, then he wouldn't have to pay it because Fred Goldman was relentless in getting justice for his son. So Simpson would have people organize a signing in a hotel room in a private club and a private place. And he would sign autographs. He'd sign pictures from his football days, from his broadcasting days. And people would have to pay cash. And they would literally give him stacks of cash. This doesn't like $100.

It was thousands of dollars. He would get that for signings. If he played golf, you see he played golf a lot in Nevada. He was constantly on the golf course. He at one point said he was searching for the killers and the joke was on the golf course, OJ, no. So the people that played with him, they would have to pay him cash as well. It was never just let's hang out with OJ as a fun time. It was constantly running this cash ring to keep him in a lifestyle that he enjoyed and to make sure that Fred Goldman could never take it.

And if he would appear on podcasts, they would pay him cash. Any appearance that OJ made, any luncheon that he did, anything with what you would think were friends, was just a business transaction totally in cash in order to thwart the settlement that the court ordered him to pay. Chris Milcher joining us, high-profile celebrity lawyer and partner at a very prestigious law firm. Chris, how did he get away with that? I mean, we're thousands of miles away from where this was happening, but we all know it was happening. Even the Goldman's knew it was happening.

Cash only to the tune of $15,000, $20,000 a day. Well, Nancy, this is the problem in court when you get a judgment. It's a piece of paper, and then it's up to you to collect it. And Fred Goldman did pursue OJ and made him kind of live in this, underground economy where he was getting cash, and it just was very difficult to collect anything, but he was under a microscope. The NFL pensions, those are protected under federal law called ERISA. Well, Chris, wouldn't the IRS be interested in a cash-only ring of businesses? This goes from memorabilia to lunches and dinners, to speaking events, to podcasts. This guy's

making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Nobody can take his mansions. So wouldn't the IRS be three inches up his tailpipe on this? Well, that's absolutely right. He was not only failing to pay the judgment, but he was also failing to pay taxes. And we're seeing that in the probate case that's being administered here after his death, that the IRS and the California Franchise Tax Board are creditors of O.J. Simpson. So they're saying they want to get paid and because for these taxes on undeclared income. And it wasn't just the cash for golf, Alexis Tereschuk.

He had other schemes to avoid paying the Browns and the Goldman's. A lot of schemes. And he got away with it and everything else his whole life. Until now. What about his mansion in Florida and a second home in Nevada, seriously? So OJ Simpson, after Nicole and Ron were killed, had got a home in Florida.

Florida and Nevada both have laws that you cannot take the home away from somebody in order to pay for civil trials, punishments and things like that. It's a homestead law, and he was very smart about this. He did it specifically in Florida and Nevada, knowing that neither of these two states

would allow the Goldman's to take the money from him. So that's what he did. He planned ahead. And he also lived off. He has a SAG pension, the Screen Actors Guild, because he was in a lot of movies after his football career, and he has a pension from the NFL. Neither of those pensions can be touched for payments for trials and verdicts and things like that. He cannot be forced to pay that out. That is his money no matter what. Alexis, have you seen his Florida home? I'm looking at it right now. It's beautifully manicured, palm trees, every.

where it has a private basketball court, it has a huge pool with a palm tree overlooking it. It's high-tech kitchen, fireplaces, all around the home. It's really expensive. How come he didn't have to sell that, Chris Melcher, and pay the murder victim's families? So, unfortunately, there are protections in Florida for a home, and it's called the Homestead Act, and OJ was aware of this. That's why undoubtedly he purchased this expensive home there.

because the Goldman's could not use that home as a source of collecting. It's just protected under law. You're seeing in the background, there is Simpson, we believe, at his pool, at his home. And Emma Wright, is there a Nevada home as well, Alexis Torres-Chuk? There is a home in Nevada. You know, when he got out of prison, he was actually struggling to find a place to live. No state wanted to take him. He was allowed to stay in Nevada and he bought a home in a private gated community, very expensive,

very fancy as well. And Nevada has the same law as Florida. And so the Goldman could not touch this home either. He lived there. He did his daily. He got a Twitter account and he would post daily videos from his yard from his home, talked about his lifestyle with his fantasy football picks and talked about golf there. You see this is the Nevada home. And that's where he spent the last of his years. I'm looking at his Nevada home right now. It is directly on a golf course. Simpson's living in a massive home, a Vegas home on a golf course. It's palatial, 5,000 square foot and a private Vegas gated community right next to a golf course. Now, in one of the homes where he was living, it was a home of a longtime friend, five bedrooms, five and a half baths,

pool, hot tub, putting green, 20 minutes from the Vegas strip. It goes on and on. What I don't understand to you, John Bueller, is how a double killer can live like this when he should be behind bars and never paid the victims. Well, pretty obvious flaw in the system when it comes to stuff like that. I understand the law is set up to protect people's property when they're you know, living there the rest of their life. But at the same time, it would seem that something should be changed on that where he should be forced to give up one of those two homes to the victim's families on this. I mean, I live in one house. I wouldn't want to. But he is pretty shrewd character when he's coming up with this stuff. I'm sure he had a team of pretty

good lawyers who were advising him on how to get away with this stuff, not only to get away with the murder, but he got away with not paying for many, many years. More than 31 years after Simpson is found liable for the deaths of Nicole and Ron. Simpson's estate finally agrees to pay damages to Goldman's family. Simpson's estate has agreed to pay Ron's father, Fred, $58 million plus interest. It's unclear what spurred the change of heart. Executor Malcolm LeVern previously swearing to never pay Goldman a dollar. I'm saying right now it's okay, officer, everything is okay all about he wants to give him to his mom.

He wants to get it to a dollar. Okay. So that's all I have. That's all we ask. He got a gun to get his answer. Okay. What's your name? My name is A.C. You know who I am.

God, shit. Okay. All righty, sir. Hold on this moment. In the last days, an incredible turn of events. Simpson must be spinning out as his estate forced to pay $58 million to his murder victim's family. Now, he skated at the criminal trial, as we all recall. Remember this?

This is O.J. Simpson's. one day in court by your decision you control his very life in your hands treated carefully, treated fairly be fair don't be part of this

continuing cover up do the right thing remembering that if it doesn't fit you must acquit. In the matter of the people of the state of California versus Orenthal James Simpson, case number B-A-097-211 We, the jury, in the above entitled action, find the defendant Orenthall James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder in violation of penal code, Section 187A, a felony upon Nicole Brown Simpson.

That's for our friends at Court TV, FYI, they already knew what the verdict was because the jurors had been told to gather up their belongings and leave. Long story short, that was no surprise. But I guarantee you, Chris Melcher, never, ever should a defendant be allowed to perform an experiment in front of the jury that has not been tried before. Why would the state hand over the evidence and have a demonstration? Why would they allow that to happen? And I guarantee you, Melcher, if I had been in that courtroom, I think I could have made that glove. fit on Simpson's Virginia ham of a hand. The thing was drenched in blood and dried out. This was a moment, a turning a pivotal moment, and I got to hand it to Cochran. It worked.

This is from our friends at CNN. It worked, Melcher. Well, absolutely did, Nancy. And that was just a huge tactical error by the prosecutor and by the trial judge because, you know, this trial is a search for the truth. And this courtroom experiment was designed to yield this result where the glove doesn't fit because he's not making it fit. He's also wearing a surgical glove underneath it. And then it gives us great line for Johnny Cochran to say, if he doesn't fit, you must acquit. So that was a pivotal moment in the case for the prosecution to lose it. Man, big time.

But just one year later, a very difficult. different scenario. One year after a civil trial begins, the families of Nicole and Ron Sue Simpson for wrongful deaths. The civil trial lasts five months, 12-person jury finding O.J. Simpson responsible for the murders and awards $8.5 million to Ron Goldman's parents and determined Simpson should pay 25 million impunitive damages to both victims' families. Dave, can we talk about Simpson's failed polygraph, the polygraph that was admitted at the civil trial? You know, it's amazing, Nancy, how at a civil trial, you have a different level of what can be used and what cannot be used in that actual trial. So O.J. Simpson's polygraph test, which, of course, never would be in a criminal trial, it gets led in to the civil trial.

and O.J. Simpson flat out flunks the test. And, you know, it becomes a big deal because it said he definitely... Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Stop, stop, stop. Dave Mack, did you say he flunks? That would bring to mind a zero at worst. Dave Mac, you are certainly airbrushing the truth. You're putting perfume on the pick. He didn't make a zero. He made a negative 24.

Please. You're the investigative reporter. Why am I feeding you the facts? A negative 24. That's how badly he lied. It was considered definitively deceptive. And it was a secret lie detector test that he took two days after the murders took place. As you mentioned on a scale where a minus six score indicates borderline deception, his was way beyond that and indefinite deception in his answers to questions surrounding the killings of Nicole and Ron. Chris Melcher, civil and criminal celebrity lawyer, of course, unless both parties stipulate to a polygraph ahead of time before the poly is taken, polys are not allowed, lie detectors are not allowed in criminal trials for the most part across our country. Civil cases are a far different matter. Now, did you hear what Dave Mac said, he mentioned a subtle but important distinction. He stated that this poly on which Simpson

made a negative 24, worse than a zero. It was a private polygraph. What does that mean? That means it was a defense polygraph. The state would have sent him into a state-recognized polygrapher, one that they use all the time. I think you would agree with that. So this is a private polygraph, and even with the defense, making up the questions and administering softball questions to Simpson. He failed. He did worse than failing. He went into negative, double digits. That's how badly he lied. And you know, I know, Johnny Cochran, God rest his soul. He had Simpson ready. The defense had him ready to take that polly, and he still failed. That's like knowing the questions on the test, Melcher, and still failing.

That's right. I mean, because he was guilty. And also, I'm just really surprised that they even allowed him or even thought about taking a polygraph test because they didn't bear any burden at the criminal trial. And to expose him to any statements or any testing, I'm just, again, really surprised that any attorney would think that he would pass this thing. But obviously he didn't.

And the civil jury got it right. The criminal jury got it wrong. Hey, you know what, Dave Mack? I'm thinking about it, and Cochran didn't join the defense team until later. So I guarantee you, if Cochran had been there at that moment, there is no way in HEWL. He would have let Simpson take a polly. Now, granted, under Brady v. Maryland, let's put it in a nutshell, Melcher, Brady v. Maryland,

the state must hand over all exculpatory evidence to the defense. A Brady violation is when the state fails to do that for whatever reason. However, if the defense has something damning against their own client, they do not have to hand it over to the state. Well, that's right. Because the criminal defendant, OJ, in this case, bears no burden. He has a right to remain silent. He doesn't have to produce evidence against himself unless it's physical evidence of a crime that's in his possession. So they can do these tests, like a polygraph test, just to see internally, like how he might fare. But it's the prosecution that has the burden to turn over exculpatory or evidence that potentially could lead to him being not guilty. because that's just fair. Otherwise, we could end up convicting someone who's factually innocent. And I tell you what I think happened, Chris. I think that for the civil trial,

the plaintiffs, who would be the Goldman's and the Browns, you know, filed their motion for discovery. And they got the results of the poly that he failed. That's how they got it. Because this was a defense poly, it was not a plaintiff's or a state polly. so they had to get it through discovery or they found out about it and subpoenaed it. But however they got it, they got it.

And that had a lot to do with the civil verdict, which we're talking about today because tonight, while O.J. Simpson is having supper with Satan and Bilsabub. You know he is P.O.ed technical legal term that his estate is paying out $58 million when he swore. He swore, dare I say on the Bible, he would never pay the victim's family. Never. Regarding the Polly, that's not all. Dave Mack, do you remember the, quote, his words, not mine, Dave Mac, the ugly-ass Bruno Molly shoes that were believed to have been worn the night of the murders based on a distinctive shoe pattern found in blood?

Remember the Bruno Mollies? He swore he didn't. own? Remember that? What happened, Dave? Nancy, these are size 12, Bruno-Molly shoes. They're actually the Lorenzo model shoe that was found in the blood at the crime scene.

OJ. swore up and down. Under oath, he didn't own them. I don't have those shoes. I don't know what you're talking about. However, during the trial, civil trial, there's photographs of Simpson wearing the same type of Bruno-Molly shoes

that was found. The footprint of In the Blood. Now, here's the key on these Bruno Mollies. They're a rare shoe. There were only 299 pairs of size 12 Bruno Mollies, even sold in the United States at the time. And him claiming that these are ugly-ass shoes, doesn't own them and wouldn't wear them. And then they bought the pictures up there. And it actually showed him on the sidelines of a Buffalo Bill's game where he's standing out there as a celebrity. and there he is, wearing the Bruno-Molly shoes that he swears he doesn't own and doesn't wear.

Like every good lawyer, Attorney Petruchelli, if you remember that name, Chris Melcher, laid a trap, and Simpson walked right into it. He asked again, under oath, about the Bruno-Molly shoes, and of course, Simpson lied. Then he produced a photo, I believe it came from the Inquirer magazine, that photoed Simpson walking along the sidelines, hands in his pockets, happy as anything,

wearing the shoes. And they are Italian luxury footwear. Who could afford those, O.J. Simpson. And there he was, busted. The civil jury was sitting there listening to this and fell out. There was so much evidence pointing towards his guilt. That being one of them. What are the chances that there's just some...

you know, homicidal person here in the west side of Los Angeles is wearing these expensive Italian loafers and then connecting it the way that it happened here in the civil case. Again, we're seeing different evidence, a different jury, a different standard of proof, but this civil jury understanding it and the criminal jury, and again, we were all there,

we saw this outcome and it's just so unbelievable that the criminal jury just was led astray in thinking that he was not guilty. A photo of Simpson in the murder shoes. Now, what I don't understand, Chris, is why that was not introduced at the criminal trial. Yeah, I'm assuming that the prosecution did not have the evidence of the photograph showing. I don't know and and we also have to remember that 30 years ago is a lot different than today if they were a prosecution happening today there is an overwhelming amount of evidence on social media and we have what citizen journalists or people who are concerned your listeners would be scouring somebody OJ's social media page if this case was happening right now and finding that evidence and sending it to detectives or the prosecution team. And this is an extension, a community extension of the prosecution by getting that evidence and showing it.

But 30 years ago, we didn't have that. Money. I'm sure the family of the murder victims appreciate it, even though it's decades late and is cold comfort in exchange for a lifetime without Ron and Nicole. We remember an American hero, Officer Mark Brock, Vivian PD, Louisiana, 25, shot in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving fiancé. American hero, Officer Mark Brock. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.