Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ORIGINAL "GONE GIRL" SHERRI PAPINI'S BIZARRE U-TURN CLAIM SHE WAS KIDNAPPED DESPITE JAILTIME FOR HOAX

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The original Gone Girl, the super mom. Remember Sherry Papini, who said she was kidnapped by three Hispanic individuals that beat her, knocked out her teeth, broke her nose, starved her, and branded her? Well, tonight, in a bizarre U-turn, she now claims she really was kidnapped despite serving jail time for her elaborate hoax so she could go snug up with an ex-boyfriend.

Starting point is 00:00:44 I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I wanna thank you for being with us. I'm saving a shirt and I'm guessing they're in trouble and... I wanted to report there is somebody in the middle of the streetway, on I-5, and it looks like a blind female, possibly. There is a lady on the side of the road, needing help. That lady is a liar. And that liar is the original Gone Girl, Sherry Papini. It all starts right here with a 911 call. Listen. on a walk. I couldn't find her so I called the daycare to see what time she picked up the kids. The kids were never picked up so I got freaked out so I hit like the find my

Starting point is 00:01:48 iPhone app thing and it said that her, it showed her phone like at our end of our driveway we don't have really good service. Okay. Not the end of our driveway but the end of our street. But just drove down there and I saw her phone with her headphones because she started running again and it, I found her phone and it's got like hair ripped out of it like in the headphones so I'm like totally freaking out thinking like somebody like what's her I will never forget when Sherry Papini so-called super mom a very loving mom seemingly vanishes into thin air someone apparently snatching her off the street

Starting point is 00:02:26 Near her home as she goes jogging her husband distraught It was a nightmare joining me an all-star panel to make sense of what we know now as Sherry Papini the original gone girl takes a bizarre U-turn Now this is after she does jail time for pulling off the hoax of the century that she had really been kidnapped when actually she was snugged up

Starting point is 00:02:52 with her boyfriend the whole time. Now she says, okay, erase, erase, drastic erase. I really was kidnapped. And I pled to lying because I was pressured to. I can't wait to hear this. Joining me, Sheriff Michael Johnson, superstar in the law enforcement community, Sheriff Shasta County.

Starting point is 00:03:14 That department investigated the original Sherry Papini case. Okay, Sheriff Johnson, your department faced with a missing mom snatched in broad daylight. At the beginning, what did law enforcement think? Sheriff Johnson K.J. Johnson, D.C. Well, at first, everybody took it very seriously. We thought, yeah, we had a missing girl. And just for clarification, Nancy, I inherited this mess. I came into it and I call it my favorite waste of time because that's all

Starting point is 00:03:44 Sherry did with anybody was waste everybody's time. We get the report of, and you heard the 911 of a woman missing and suspicious circumstances. But right from the beginning, the headphones and the phone that you hear about this laying on the ground with hair tangled in it was kind of coiled neatly and set aside. It didn't look at all like an abduction as is reported. But nevertheless, everybody took it very seriously and allocated a whole lot of time, whole lot of effort, allied agencies, every public safety search and rescue, everybody got involved in the beginning to find this missing woman.

Starting point is 00:04:23 Dr. Nellis Johnson You know, Sheriff Johnson, at the very beginning, I said the same thing about her phone. I've handled a lot of investigations, prosecutions, and then covered cases as well. Just for instance, Maggie Murdoch, you know Alex Murdoch, the South Carolina lawyer that murdered his wife and son. Her phone was thrown out of a car window and found on the side of the road in the weeds. And it struck me, the dichotomy of Sherry Papini's hair being found in the wires of the earpiece, like it had been snatched out, but yet it was all coiled up and set away so it wouldn't be run over. Now, if that phone had really been snatched away from her, it would have been thrown somewhere, probably run over in the middle of the road.

Starting point is 00:05:07 Yeah, absolutely. Or ditched, or he would have broken, thrown in the water or something to get rid of it. He wouldn't just leave it there. And it definitely wouldn't have been in the condition it was. Obviously, we know that now. But yeah, from the beginning, things were not adding up. And that is a perfect start to- Oh my dear Sheriff Johnson, I don't wanna disbelieve what a victim says because victims in our country are so often maligned that I thought there must be some innocent explanation

Starting point is 00:05:35 as to how that phone was found, neatly tucked away. But that said, this is what the then sheriff had to say Tom Bysenko, listen. Last night at about 10 minutes to 6 p.m., Keith Papini reported his wife, Sherry, as a missing person with suspicious circumstances. When he returned home, he found that his wife was not home and the children had not been picked up from their daycare. That is from the Reading Record Searchlight and the search was on. To Kelly Somm joining us, Anchor Action News Now, the CBS and NBC affiliate in Reading. Kelly, thank you for being with us.

Starting point is 00:06:18 Tell me about the massive search. Now, you heard Sheriff Johnson describing it as his favorite waste of time, but let me throw a technical legal term at you. There was a crap ton of man hours, money, resources, and emotion poured in to the search for Sherry Papini. Describe. So we get a lot of missing person reports in the newsroom. But people have the right to disappear if they want. And this one quickly took on a life of its own. We were getting inundated with friends and family members sending us all these pictures you're showing on the screen.

Starting point is 00:07:00 And it really painted a compelling tale. Within the first day, it wasn't just law enforcement. There was this uprising of community concern, strangers volunteering their time to go search for Sherry Papini, a woman they never met, because it seemed so unusual, according to the story being shared by her loved ones, for her to disappear like this without a trace. So it really did take on a life of its own. It was within hours all over social media people sharing and sharing and that's why it became a national story so quickly. Yeah, I'm very, very curious. Kelly, she was ultimately found. She was

Starting point is 00:07:41 found. How did she re-emerge after she was kidnapped and what was her story? So it was 22 days later, Thanksgiving morning. I do the early morning news so as we were wrapping up our show we were getting the word that in the pre-dawn hours she had been found along Interstate 5 about 150 miles south of Redding and And she was almost darting into traffic, waving frantically to get driver's attention. She had a chain around her waist. She had zip ties around her wrist. She looked like she'd been battered and bruised.

Starting point is 00:08:17 She had rashes on her arm and legs. And she had been branded. She actually, there's some photos where they show her lifting up her shirt and you can see the brand. These are the first photos of her being branded. At that time, we thought, by her captor. And so it was this dramatic story unfolding

Starting point is 00:08:38 and it was unfolding on Thanksgiving morning when the entire community had gathered to release balloons, yellow balloons in honor of Sherri Papini as a signal to the heavens, we're looking for you Sherri. And then it seems like... Okay, please stop right there. I just gotta stop you Kelly. Let me let this just marinate for a moment. The community had gathered to release balloons to heaven in a request like a direct balloon ogram to God. Please help us find Sheri.

Starting point is 00:09:11 This is correct. It happened. There was a turkey trot that morning and in conjunction with that, people were going to use the opportunity to release balloons. Now, the first sign that she had been found was the family did not show up for the balloon release that they had organized. The closest family members, Keith, did not show up. And so behind the scenes, there were a lot of phone calls happening, again, early morning hours, 430 a.m., that she had been found and then we would get the news confirmed later that day.

Starting point is 00:09:42 I mean, hold on, Kelly., I gotta go to Sheriff Michael Johnson. A balloon release, really? Really? Begging, pleading with God, and the whole time she snugged up at her ex-boyfriend's place. The balloon release? I did not know that.

Starting point is 00:09:59 I mean, the point is, I'm not mocking a balloon release. I've done balloon releases. I've gathered and had prayer circles and prayed for someone to be found. We recently did one for Suzanne Morphew that somehow there would be justice in that case, that the truth would come out, whatever that may be. And I believe in prayer. But that she would manipulate the community, law enforcement and her family, her children, oh my stars, thinking mommy's gone and

Starting point is 00:10:36 may never come home. A balloon release, my rear end. I mean when you look back and you think about what what everyone went through, the blood, the sweat, the tears, to find this woman who then tried to blame some, she says, three unknown Hispanics, what if there had been an arrest of people that matched her pretty accurate description? She gave a detailed description. What if someone had actually been arrested for Pete's sake? Well, as a matter of fact, the officers from various agencies were pulling over vehicles

Starting point is 00:11:14 and anybody that remotely matched the descriptions and the suspects that she alleged had kidnapped her because we're looking for clues and we're looking for suspects and we're trying to do our job. And it's all this hoax and painted picture by a self-serving and narcissistic personality that just doesn't care, only cares about herself. So in the bottom line, Sheriff Johnson, what was her story? Who does she claim kidnapped her, starved her, beat her, broke her nose, and branded her with a hot branding iron? Who did she blame? Well, she's blaming her boyfriend now, but who did she blame before?

Starting point is 00:11:54 No, no, no. I don't mean this iteration, Sheriff. I mean the old kidnappers. Oh, there they are. Who did she blame at the get-go, Sheriff Johnson? That's who she blamed, those they are. Who did she blame at the get-go, Sheriff Johnson? Dr. John Hanson, Chief of Staff, National Security Service, Texas Department of Defense That's who she blamed, those Hispanic women. And that kidnapped her and she'd been held captive by a third person. And she just, she was making it up as she went. And it just,

Starting point is 00:12:16 as you heard, it became a community interest story and a nationwide interest story because of the circumstances involved. And it just became this perfect storm of lies. And once we got her back, once she was found, which was her getting dropped off on the side of the road and continuing her hoax, once we started that investigation, we had her and interviewed her, we knew that she had fabricated this. The problem was you have to build the case and make absolutely sure that you have all the evidence before you come out and tell the public that she's in fact a liar. And in that meantime, she's out there meeting with other families. We have an unsolved case of a young girl who

Starting point is 00:13:03 went missing here in Reading years ago. She went and met with that family and tried to sympathize with them and tell them how much they had in common and how she had been abducted as well. It's just her narcissism just is sickening with this whole thing. Dr. Pollard- She went to another kid in that girl's family and tried to empathize with them? Yes, unsolved case in this poor family. She did not get enough jail time for this. I'm just putting that out there.

Starting point is 00:13:31 We need to rethink that. Now, joining me as a special guest, Dr. Steven M. Diggs, Sherry Papina's therapist. He is a licensed psychologist and owner director of the NYSA therapy. He is the author of Secondhand Girl from Foster Care to Borderline Personality to Peace. His website nySATherapy.com. Dr. Diggs, thank you for being with us you're welcome you believe that your client Sherry Papini was in fact kidnapped I do by who by James the boyfriend the boyfriend why well because even though sheriff Johnson says she's narcissistic I'm a specialist to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that.

Starting point is 00:14:25 I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that.

Starting point is 00:14:33 I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that.

Starting point is 00:14:41 I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. disorder. Now, the real question is... No, could it possibly be the, I want attention from men, various men, no matter what I have to do to get it, and I have my life fed to me on a silver spoon, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, didn't her family have issues with her violent outburst before any of this happened? The question shouldn't be Nancy, why do I believe Sherry? The question should be why do I not believe James? It is naive and simplistic of all of you to believe James when there hasn't been enough scrutiny placed upon him. I can apply that scrutiny now if you'd like to have him do it. The original gone girl, Sherry Papini, after doing hard jail time for a huge kidnap hoax,

Starting point is 00:15:29 she now claims that she is quote, setting the record straight. Sherry Papini is setting the record straight on what really happened to her and why. She says the lie she told about being kidnapped by two Hispanic women was really supposed to be a tip for law enforcement as to the identity of her real kidnapper.

Starting point is 00:15:48 Even though she admitted to law enforcement, her disappearance was a hoax she orchestrated. Papini says she really was kidnapped and she's the victim of two men, the ex-boyfriend who really abducted her and the ex-husband who emotionally abused her and made her miserable. Let's try to make sense of what we know.

Starting point is 00:16:06 Now, this is what I know. What she told police after she was discovered in a chain and zip ties. Let's go straight to her police interrogation lesson. If you want to keep the lead, I'll ask Keith Nicely to leave. If you don't want to keep the lead, then he can sit down and press on. And we'll move on to the next stages. But I want to give you that opportunity first. Can you see those little wheels turning right there?

Starting point is 00:16:46 They're asking, they're onto her lie that three Hispanic people did not, two Hispanic women did not kidnap her. There are too many inconsistencies. This is very, very wrong. And unbeknownst to her at this time, They have already interviewed and pollied the boyfriend who has never been charged and is still not charged and who cooperated. They've talked to his brother, his mother. They have thoroughly examined the scene and they know that she's lying. Okay, now they ask, hey do you want us to make your husband leave?

Starting point is 00:17:26 Joining me right now is a very special guest, a renowned body language expert, author of How to Detect Lies, Fraud, and Identity Theft at BodyLanguageTrainer.com is Tracy Brown. Tracy, I want you, Dr. Diggs, Dr. John Delatory, another shrink joining us, and Darryl Cohen to watch her during her police interview. Now, did you see the way she looked at the investigator when he said, you want your husband to leave? Then she looks at him and she's all curled up.

Starting point is 00:17:59 Now, I'm gonna save you what happens for the next five to eight minutes where she won't answer. Does she want him to leave? Should I stay or should I go? Nobody can decide, okay? She doesn't say, no, I want him here. This goes on and on and on.

Starting point is 00:18:15 But I wanna hear from you, Tracy, what you think about her body language. Whenever someone shrinks, they are not confident in what they're saying. And so we see her lean over, someone shrinks, they are not confident in what they're saying. And so we see her lean over, she's got her hand here on her chin, she's trying to explain things that maybe didn't really happen. And so she goes from being pretty still to all of a sudden really animated and bringing

Starting point is 00:18:43 this in. But then again, we see her shrink. And so those dichotomies tell us, wait a minute, there's inconsistency in her thoughts. And it shows with her body language. The cops leave. And then she and her husband whisper furiously and this goes on but I could hear what they're saying and she's saying I don't want them to find her I don't want them to find her. Who is her? One of the Hispanic women that kidnapped her beat her and branded her and broke her nose and starved her. Okay now we're

Starting point is 00:19:23 gonna hear after furious whispering with her husband, how Sherry Papini doesn't want her kidnappers to be caught after they beat her, branded her, broke her nose and starved her. She doesn't want them caught because they don't exist. Listen. I don't want them to find her. You're not listening to me.

Starting point is 00:19:48 Because she's same to me in life. What do you want? I don't want her to get in trouble. She's not going to get in trouble. So the DNA came back to James Reyes. back to James Reyes. You're in the DNA that was on you belongs to James Reyes. Okay, Darryl Cohen with me, veteran trial lawyer, former felony prosecutor in the same office where I prosecuted, inner city Atlanta, Fulton, DA. Now private attorney at Cohen, Cooper, Eastup and Allen. How do you think that husband's feeling about right now?

Starting point is 00:20:27 Well, Nancy- And they say, hey, the DNA like all over you is your ex-boyfriend, not an Hispanic female. And he's like, truth, Bob. Well, Nancy, you can start with the fact this is not Sherry, Sherry Baby from the Four Seasons. This is Sherry who may or may not be narcissistic, but she is clearly liacistic. When you have all of that DNA from an ex-boyfriend, it didn't

Starting point is 00:20:53 just get there. It didn't fly in from the sky and it didn't just arrive. She cannot tell the truth and because she can't, she lies. And what happens when you lie? You have to remember what you said and you have to be consistent. She was not smart enough to keep her story simple. She kept it complicated and confusing. And the more confusing she got, the more she had to remember and the more difficult it was for her to be consistent. She is Sherry the liar and who deserved much more incarceration time because of the fact that she wasted law enforcement's time and effort and she ruined the public because when people actually do get kidnapped, we want the public to be good. We want them to look for them. What we don't want is somewhat like Sherry the liar

Starting point is 00:21:47 to ruin it for the people who actually are honest victims. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. About the polygraph, to Sheriff Michael Johnson, who inherited this case, Sheriff Johnson, Sherry Papini's private therapist, a renowned therapist, Dr. Steven M. Diggs, states that she passed a poly. First I heard of it. Did she pass a poly? No, she got two questions right on a poly. That's've heard of it. Did she pass a poly? Dr. Jim Carrington No, she got two questions right on a poly.

Starting point is 00:22:26 That's it. Two questions. That doesn't make her passing a poly. And I got to go back to something else about, you know, I've always wondered how people can even still sympathize with Sherry and believe her. And I just heard the doctor that believes her. Actually, James came up the day before she went missing. So she went missing on November 2nd. He came up November 1st by her plan, rented a car as she told him to, was supposed to go missing that evening, didn't work out, plans didn't work out. He spent the night in his car in a parking lot and waited till the next day till they could orchestrate this big plan. How you could say that she was actually kidnapped now and blamed James. And one other thing,

Starting point is 00:23:13 I will agree with the doctor, she definitely has a personality disorder. I don't know what that technical disorder is, but I agree with your prosecutor. Liar is the best one I could say, proven convicted liar. But I agree with your prosecutor. Liar is the best one I could say. Proven, convicted liar. Dr. Diggs, did you know that fact that the boyfriend, James, who has never been charged with anything and fully cooperated along with his brother and his mother and others that saw Sherry Papini in his apartment, Did you know he had come up the day before and rented a car pursuant to her request

Starting point is 00:23:48 and ended up staying overnight? Yes. To leave with her the next day? Well, I mean, what I believe is that she wanted to have a quiet hotel room or a parking lot and then get back home as quick as quickly as possible. But that the plan to go and leave for 22 days was his. She did not have that plan.

Starting point is 00:24:11 Well, then why the rental car? Well, because he wanted to get around in town, I suppose. I mean, he needed a way to drive around. But she told him to get the rental car. Perhaps. I don't know about that detail. I don't know. Well, I mean, we're telling you, they have evidence that she told him to get the rental car. Perhaps, I don't know about that detail. I don't know. Well, I mean, we're telling you,

Starting point is 00:24:25 they have evidence that she told him to get a rental car and to come out the day before. Right, well, she has been, she's doing better through therapy, but she is a hardcore liar. That is true. What I'm saying is it takes critical thinking here, folks, to separate lying from abduction.

Starting point is 00:24:44 Her crime was lying, but she was abducted. And if you look at the film she made, her polygraph person says both things can be true. She can be lying and she could have been abducted. They can be true. Okay. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, Dr. Delatorre is joining me. Another amazing I mean, Dr. Delatory is joining me, another amazing shrink, and I mean that in a loving and caring way. Psychologist, mediator, specializing in forensic psychology, consultant to Project Absence, which is a nonprofit to help find missing people.

Starting point is 00:25:19 Dr. Delatory, thank you. I certainly think two things can be true, two seemingly inconsistent things. A. I know she's lying, but B. I don't think it's possible that she was kidnapped based on the hard evidence. So the fact that she claims to have passed a polygraph, and I know for a fact she did not pass a polygraph. The fact that she told someone to come ahead of time in a rental car driving almost a thousand miles round trip to get her and take her away. There's got to be, there's got to be something in the DSM to describe this woman. Insane, it ain't, okay?

Starting point is 00:26:03 Because that's a defense under the law. She knew what she was doing, Delatory Because that's a defense under the law. She knew what she was doing, Delatory. Oh, she absolutely knew what she was doing. I think there's an element of an impression management type presentation. Meaning, there are some individuals who need to come across a certain way to the world, to society, to the community, whoever, either as a hero or as a victim, these individuals will say and do anything in order to keep that kind of presentation going.

Starting point is 00:26:34 I think there are elements maybe of history on it, personality disorder, if we were to really kind of boil down what exactly is that's going on. Uncomfortable in situations in which she's not center of attention, shallow affects, there are a lot of elements in which she's trying to control and merit it

Starting point is 00:26:51 in order to make herself seem like a victim. Now with histrionic, unfortunately, these people tend to be more suggestible where Sherry Capini seems to come across as more proactive in telling whatever falsehood she thinks is going to fit the situation that she finds herself in. And that's where we get the two things can be true at the same time, which is she's a liar, but believes that everything happened the way that she described it. A lie really only works if the liar believes it. Okay, well wait a minute, Delatory, which time?

Starting point is 00:27:26 The first time when it was the fake Hispanic kidnappers or this time when it's the boyfriend? And did you notice Sheriff Michael Johnson, who has clarified that she did not pass a polygraph, did you notice when you guys are getting to go arrest, find and arrest two female Hispanic women, she's like, wait, I don't want them arrested because they let me go. They saved my life by letting me go. Translation, that's all a big fat lie and I don't want you to find out.

Starting point is 00:27:57 Mike Roberts That's exactly what it was. Everybody knows it. And now, suddenly, because she's in a court battle and wants custody of her kids, she's got a new story. And that's all this is. She's looking for more attention. She wants to win a case. She wants sympathy. She wants some custody of her kids. And this is her next ditch effort to try to create more drama. situation, the reason why you can describe the room is because you stayed in the room in the dark for hours, for days on end. The reason why you lost so much weight is because you stopped eating. The reason why you got a rash on your arm is because you cleaned his house. The reason why the brand is because he went to the store, bought the brand new

Starting point is 00:29:01 tools and branded you. The reason why your nose was broke is because of a hockey stick. Wow, Tekeli Sam joining us, anchor Action News Now, CBS and NBC affiliate in Reading. That's a lot of evidence. The rental agreement, the phone rental, the car rental, everything, DNA, blonde hair, the works. Now that brings to light the fact that everything, DNA, blonde hair, the works. Now, that brings to light the fact that Sherry Papini was using a burner phone.

Starting point is 00:29:32 And when she described the home of the female Hispanic kidnapper, she actually described the home of the boyfriend, James Reyes, down to a photo in his room of his dead brother. I think what the investigation revealed is she was able to give these very detailed misrepresentations. So they sound believable, but then later when you go to confirm them, they don't match up with reality. Some of the other details she shared was that she felt cold and where she said she was kept, it rained

Starting point is 00:30:06 almost every night. That there was a windy road and she felt like she was being taken up in elevation, as up into the mountain. That does not describe the boyfriend's apartment in Costa Mesa, California. It did not rain every night. It was definitely not cold there. So parts of the story were true, and then parts of them were not. It was a very cold there. So parts of the story were true and then parts of them were not.

Starting point is 00:30:27 It was a very detailed lie. And in that interview where they confronted her with the fact, they gave her an opportunity to say, is there a problem with your husband, Keith Papini? She said, no, I love my husband. I don't want to leave him. I'm a terrible person for communicating with former boyfriends. They gave her an opportunity to point the finger at James Reyes and she said, no, James loves me.

Starting point is 00:30:53 He's my friend. He wouldn't do anything like this. So they were in essence bending over backwards, giving her an opportunity to tell the story she waited another five years to tell. Guys, there's more. But the fact that she was using a burner phone, Sheriff Michael Johnson is with us. The only people that I know that use burner phones are dope dealers and felons. I mean, why do you need a burner phone? Because you want to create distance. You don't want law enforcement to find you. You don't want law enforcement to find you. You don't want other people to find you. There's a number of reasons, right? Burner phones are the tool of the trade for criminal activity.

Starting point is 00:31:33 And she's no different. Let's not forget, she's proven convicted liar. The whole thing's a hoax. Guys, there's more. Listen to the interrogation and watch her body language and how she reacts. No. I rented a car. No. I drove up and picked her up. He passed the polygraph test, Sherry. If that's not what happened, what didn't happen, Sherry? I don't know. No, there's no way. it's James, there's no way,

Starting point is 00:32:06 there's no way. The DNA doesn't lie. His DNA, his DNA was on you. There's no way. Robert saw you in the house while you were down there. Yeah, the boyfriend James Ray's brother, Robert saw Papini in the house and everything was fine. Nobody was being held against their will,

Starting point is 00:32:25 but that's her story now in a bizarre U-turn. The ultimate, the original Gone Girl says, okay, yes, maybe I wasn't kidnapped by two Hispanic females and beaten and starved, but I was kidnapped by my old boyfriend. ["The Daily Show Theme"] by my old boyfriend. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, Daryl Cohen, another truth bomb has dropped on the husband.

Starting point is 00:32:57 Do you notice how she's looking down and she won't look at the husband when they say, yeah, your ex-boyfriend's DNA is all over you, woman. Oh, it's wonderful, Nancy. She is digging and digging. She's not just using a little shovel, she's using a ditch digger because that is what she is doing piece by piece by piece. She's putting the story together that she cannot even fathom. Her husband, who apparently is a good person.

Starting point is 00:33:24 And Tracy, jumping off what Daryl Cohen is saying, do you notice how she won't, she does her face like this and won't even look at her husband when the cops keep talking, sheriffs keep talking about your ex-boyfriend James Reyes, DNA's all over you, his brother saw you, his mother knew you were there. I mean, she won't look at her husband and she just keeps saying, it's not him. It's not him. But guess what? Today she says it is him. Well, there's that. And here's what I noticed off of that is there's no tears. She's not like, she's, she's trying to cry. But when people cry, they'll, they'll paw at themselves.

Starting point is 00:34:00 And she's not doing any of that. But if you listen to her tone, that's where she's trying to go. So fake tears right there. You used a burner phone to call another burner phone for James to come and get you. You're saying since your marriage you haven't called James? No, I haven't called James. Because earlier you said you had contacted James. Does phone records show that you do, you did. The phones don't lie, the DNA doesn't lie, Sherry.

Starting point is 00:34:30 You can go a couple different directions now. His story. I've already told you lying to me is a crime. So you walk out the store telling lies, and that's a crime. I think we need a new lawyer. With me, in addition to our other incredible guests, is Sherry Papini's psychologist, her therapist, California psychologist at NYSA therapy Dr. Stephen

Starting point is 00:34:53 Diggs. So is there a rational explanation from Papini as to why she was using a burner phone to call James Reyes burner phone? Why did they both need burner phones? She was trying to have an affair with him. That's what she says. But then why did he need a burner phone? I don't know that. Well, that's a hard question to answer.

Starting point is 00:35:20 But I think I have a pretty good idea about why it could not be revealed that she was snuck up with her ex boyfriend. Talking to other guys that have got me here. So what aspect are you saying? How does talking to other people got you here? Well you've gotten over it. I love my husband. I love my husband. I make mistakes and I talk to other men. Obviously you've heard questions so you can read through some of those and understand.

Starting point is 00:35:54 You've seen some of the photos so you know some of the investing that were pre-summed. Yeah, we found them. And we did. Yeah. But you can also notice your reaction compared to her reaction. Yeah, no, 100%. That's what I'm saying from my side But now now you're telling me okay, you guys go home now Well, do you think I want her anywhere around my kids or around me at all at this point?

Starting point is 00:36:13 Isn't it true Kelly some that after a previous incident of cheating? That Sherry Pappini signed a post-nup after the marriage stating that she would lose custody if she cheated again. And that's why she couldn't admit that she was at her ex-boyfriend's place and covered in his DNA. Correct. About a year into their marriage, Keith had Sherry sign that post-nuptial agreement saying, if I catch you cheating again, you're pretty much gonna lose everything and you're gonna lose the kids and the money. And that was in the back of her mind,

Starting point is 00:36:51 very, very fearful of losing her children. And so that's what prompted the false story coming back that no, I wasn't cheating, I wasn't communicating, I was hiding these communications with burner phones so I wouldn't be discovered and I wouldn't cheating, I wasn't communicating, I was hiding these communications with burner phones so I wouldn't be discovered and I wouldn't lose my children. Okay, to Dr. Steven Diggs, were you aware of the post-nup that if she cheated again, she would lose custody of the children and all the money? Yeah, she's a liar and a cheater and she's got self-defeating personality disorder and as the other psychologist said, she's got histrionic features too. These are all common activities in people with that diagnosis.

Starting point is 00:37:31 Okay, you know to me Dr. Delatory that posting up that she would lose the children and the money if she cheated again, to me that says it all. That explains why she has to say that she was kidnapped by the ex-boyfriend James Reyes. Because if she can prove she was kidnapped, that means she wasn't cheating and therefore she can get money and children. Am I being clear, Dr. Delatory? Absolutely. It's the catalyst, right? So her husband already knew that this was a behavior that she could likely do again.

Starting point is 00:38:11 And once she felt compelled to engage in that behavior, right, had the affair, she knew that she was going to have to find a way to skirt around this post-nuptial agreement. I mean, I can't see how the kidnapping could be legitimate. I mean, it's like she was legitimately kidnapped when she has every reason to lie and has done so in order to skirt around what is known going to be a consequence, which is losing everything that she had ever wanted. I don't understand what the end game is now. Sheriff Michael Johnson with us, you and Dr. Diggs know this better than any of us. Sheriff Johnson, why the ID discovery special? I guess to further perception that she, okay, first of all, wasn't kidnapped, that she lied about that,

Starting point is 00:39:03 that she lied about the two Hispanic females kidnapping her for what? They didn't molest her, they didn't get any money, and then they just said, oh yeah, you know what, forget it, I'm just gonna throw it out on the street. That was a lie, she says, but now she's saying that she lied again. She's now saying that she was kidnapped, although you see her in all these confession tapes saying, it wasn't him, it wasn't him, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, what's the end game here? What...

Starting point is 00:39:34 Dr. Delatorre I think the end game is just like Dr. Delatorre said, this is her last ditch effort to try to get custody of her kids, to try to get some sort of stability with monetary stability back in her life. And probably because of her disorder and because of who she is, she's still starving for attention and she wants to be in the limelight. And I can't, I mean, you've covered a lot of it. There's so much evidence, overwhelming evidence that she has lied and created this whole thing, and she, in fact, did not get kidnapped that it's just ridiculous to me that we're even talking about this because she's come up with a new lie. What do you think is the strongest evidence, Sheriff, that she was not kidnapped by the ex-boyfriend. In

Starting point is 00:40:26 addition to what his mother says, his brother says, they're both using burner phones. And by the way, that was a 900 mile round trip he took, okay, just to get her. Really? Is she worth that? At her direction. But that says she was in the car for 450 miles. She couldn't jump out or use one of her burner phones to get away? Oh, they stopped at it. They stopped and let her use the restroom on the way after she was picked up on the way back to his place in Costa Mesa. If she really wanted to get away and she was really abducted and kidnapped, she had opportunity

Starting point is 00:41:01 not to be held by her captive at all. And there is... I don't know when you say what's the most compelling evidence. I don't know that there is one thing. It's a conglomeration of all these facts put together that makes such a strong case, which is why she confessed, which is why she did prison time, which is why she agreed to restitution payments for the time and money she wasted on everybody. Now this is just another Sherry Papini lie. I want you to hear something else everybody and of course I'm no shrink. We can all agree on that. I'm just a JD but I want you to hear this. James said you had your jaw broken by him. And that's why it came and got you because you were in an abusive relationship. I love my husband.

Starting point is 00:41:47 To Daryl Cohen joining me, long time colleague, we prosecuted in the same office together. Daryl, you've met my husband David many, many times and the twins. When I see you or talk to you, do I immediately say, I love my husband? No. Nancy.

Starting point is 00:42:03 As Shakespeare said, me thinks thou doth protest too much. Why does she keep saying, I love my husband. No, as Shakespeare said, me thinks thou doth protest too much. Why does she keep saying, I love my husband? Because obviously she's busted with her ex-boyfriend. Because she's been caught and then she doesn't know what to do. She's been so caught. No, when I run into you, your body language,

Starting point is 00:42:20 the way you and your husband are together tells me everything. And I may not be a certified body language expert, but I look at facial expressions, I look at body language, I watch what's going on and that tells me a lot. No, you don't overly say, oh, I love my husband, but it's what you do that makes it all worthwhile. It's how you do that makes it all worthwhile. It's how you do it. Let's go to an expert. Tracy Brown, Darryl Cohen hit it on the head.

Starting point is 00:42:49 What does that mean that she keeps saying, and that was just one tiny tidbit, I've watched the whole thing ad nauseam, and she keeps saying, I love my husband, and trying to cry. But what does that mean when you keep asserting that nobody asked her? That's exactly what I was gonna say.

Starting point is 00:43:04 Nobody asked her at all. And so this is what she wants you to believe at all times. Whenever anybody is asking any kind of important question, you got to ask yourself, what do they want you to believe about them? And that's in this case, number one, that she loves her husband, even though nobody asked. Nobody probably cares, but this tells us something about what she wants us to believe about her relationship and how she operates in the world. Sadly, Sherry Papini cannot be prosecuted for lying to Discovery ID, or else she'd be facing another slew of charges. Let's stop and

Starting point is 00:43:46 remember an American hero officer Adrian Lopez White Mountain Apache PD shot in the line of duty leaving behind a grieving wife Lushana and two children. American hero officer Adrian Lopez. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye friend. This is an iHeart podcast.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ORIGINAL "GONE GIRL" SHERRI PAPINI'S BIZARRE U-TURN CLAIM SHE WAS KIDNAPPED DESPITE JAILTIME FOR HOAX

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