Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'Outdoorsman' tracks women like animals through woods to rape and murder

Episode Date: November 24, 2020

Seventeen women die at the hands of a man who seemed harmless in appearance, a man thought of warmly in his community. It was a facade. Over 12 years, serial killer Robert Hansen abducted women and hunted them down in the Alaska wilderness. He confessed to raping an additional 30 women during that time. How did the mild-manner baker with a wife and children earn the nickname “the Butcher Baker?”Joining Nancy Grace Today: Randall Kessler - Defense Attorney & Family Law Specialist Dr. Daniel Bober - Forensic Psychiatrist, Chief of Psychiatry Memorial Regional Healthcare Systems, Assistant Clinical Professor at Yale University School of Medicine, follow on Instagram at drdanielbober Jennifer Shen, Forensic Scientist, Former San Diego Police Department Crime Lab Director Dr Kendall Crowns - Deputy Medical Examiner Travis County, Texas (Austin) Leland Hale, Author of "Butcher Baker" , Latest book "What happened in Craig" Alaska's Worst Unsolved Mass Murder. www.lelandhale.com/butcherbaker/wordpress  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Have you ever considered delving into the mind of a serial killer, I do not advise it at all. So often we learn of serial killers that seemingly function normally in regular life. One was a law student, Ted Bundy. One was a dog catcher, a church deacon, a dad, father. That would be BTK, buy, torture, kill, Dennis Rader. I could go on and on and on how serial killers seemingly lead a normal life. And they blend in amongst us.

Little do we know, they are serial killers. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How did a nerdy local baker get revealed as one of the most prolific serial killers ever in the U.S.? Take a listen to this. Two off-duty Anchorage police officers were hunting moose near the Kinnick River in a wilderness about 20 miles from Anchorage. As they made their way through the dense forests, they happened upon partially buried human remains. They left it undisturbed. The next day, crime scene technicians from the Alaska State Troopers arrived at the scene.

Crimes out here fell under state jurisdiction. Besides clothing and an elastic bandage, troopers found a.223 caliber shell casing in the shallow grave. Dental records identified the remains as 23-year-old Sherry Morrow, an exotic dancer reported missing a year earlier by her boyfriend.

Troopers called him in to break the news. Her clothes matched the ones he reported her missing in, but her good luck charm, the gold arrowhead pendant she never took off, was gone. Morrow was probably murdered shortly after she disappeared, giving the killer more than a year to cover his tracks. With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again. You were just hearing our friend Anthony Call, the FBI files a Hunter's Game, talking about the first victim we believe to be attributed to Butcher Baker, an American serial killer. With me, Randy Kessler, renowned defense attorney who specializes in not only criminal defense but family law. Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist,

chief psychiatry, Memorial Regional Healthcare Systems. You can find him on Insta at Dr. Daniel Bober. Jennifer Shin, forensic scientist, former San Diego Police Crime Lab director at jenshinforensics.com. Dr. Kendall Crowns, renowned deputy medical examiner, Travis County, Texas. That's Austin. And special guest joining us, Leland Hale, author of Butcher Baker. Who was Sherry Morrow to you, Leland Hale? She was somebody who was passing through Anchorage. At that time in Anchorage, there was lots of money because the oil pipeline was booming. There was lots of men who came up there,

and there was a pipeline of women who would work as dancers in Seattle. They'd go to Anchorage. They worked there for a while. Hold on, Leland. I find it hard to imagine somebody just passing through Anchorage. I mean, I've traveled a lot, both with and without my twins, but I've never just passed through Anchorage. I mean, I've traveled a lot, both with and without my twins, but I've never just passed through Anchorage. I mean, that's not really on a typical route. You have to go way out of your way to get to Anchorage, Alaska. That is true. There was a company called Talents West

that hired dancers and they had clubs what's the name of it talents west talents was run west t-a-l-e-n-t-s t-a-l-e-n-t-s and that's for strippers that's for strippers and dancers they had clubs in seattle they had clubs in in alaska they had clubs in hawaii so they would hire these women often in se, and they would ship them from place to place. You make them sound like cattle. I started off liking you, Leland Hale. Now I'm equivocal about that. They ship them around like cattle to hard-to-reach destinations that you can't normally get to, Hawaii, Alaska. Talents West was a local Seattle-based mafia organization,

organized crime. And one of the things in the clubs is if you have people coming back, you want them to come back again and again. So they like fresh talent, and so they would work there a while, they would move on. So that's kind of how these women got there but of course there was lots of money in anchorage so a lot of them stayed and there was lots of clubs so they could go from club to club hold on just a moment i i gotta go to randy kessler you i'm sure in the city of atlanta have represented your share of strippers.

You know, there's a thing about strippers, Kessler. My husband, David, one of his friends, very good friend in college, wonderful marriage, great job. He fell in love with a stripper. She wasn't happy until she bled him dry, ruined his marriage and left him. All right. Men are like ATM machines to strippers. So I guess what Leland Hill is saying is a lot of them go where the money is. I guess so. Kessler?

That's true, but a lot of the women go where the money is, too. In fact, speaking of law school, when I was in law school, someone I was in law school would put herself through law school by making that money. And you know what? There's some people that do it it and they're not bad people they recognize men are going to pay silly money for to see a naked woman and they take advantage of what they got yeah that'd be a lesson to you Kessler um guys we were talking about Butcher Baker one of the most prolific serial killers in the world.

And we know that possibly one of his first victims was Sherry Morrow. She wasn't found until two off-duty police officers were out hunting and found partially buried human remains. You know, let me go to you, Jennifer Shin. I don't know if he's that smart because the shell casing was still in the grave. Isn't it true that you can trace not only the forensic markings on a bullet itself, but on the shell casing when the shell casing is ejected from the weapon? Yes, you're absolutely right about that. And, you know, it's interesting. When I was doing some research on this, you went to, when you have a serial killer, you're looking at connecting crime scene after crime scene after crime scene together to get enough information to figure out who's doing this. So he obviously thought that she was far enough away and off the beaten path

and that he would be protected from that. Otherwise, he would have picked that up and not left it there because that was really instrumental in connecting the cases both to each other and to him later so that was definitely a mistake on his part yeah you're right and to you dr kindle crowns deputy medical examiner austin or think about it let's follow it through through to its natural conclusion maybe he took her there dug the the grave, and shot her right there, killed her right there, and didn't realize he had left the shell casing behind. Yeah, that's always a possibility that people in the moment of murdering someone kind of

forget about cleaning up after the fact, and especially with shell casings, they often forget to pick those up. Yeah, a lot of people know that you can trace a bullet forensically. I'll never forget the first time I watched at the crime lab how bullets were matched up to a particular individual gun. It's like a fingerprint. As that bullet hurls down the barrel of the gun. It strikes the edges, the inside of the gun, which is made of metal, of course. In such a way, it leaves striation marks on the bullet that no other gun can leave. Same thing when a shell case is ejected. The ejection pin, as I call it, leaves a mark on the shell casing that no other gun will leave.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about possibly the most prolific serial killer in the world, definitely, in Alaska. Take a listen to FBI Files' Hunter's Game. During new road construction on September 2, 1983, a crew unearthed human skeletal remains not far from where Sherry Morrow's body had been found one year earlier. The bones had obviously been here for some time. Yet until recently, this area of the Kinnick River was so remote that it could only be accessed by boat or light plane. The remains were identified as 17-year-old Paula Goulding, an out-of-work secretary who had moved to Alaska from Hawaii. She had been missing for five months. Like Sherry Morrow,

she had taken a job as an exotic dancer to make ends meet. And like Sherry Morrow, the.223 caliber cartridge was found at the site. For Alaska State Trooper Wayne Van Clausen, the connection was frightening. And that's about when everything started to become kind of scary for everybody because the profile was the same. They were topless dancers from the clubs downtown.

So we're looking for somebody that frequents strip clubs. I'm curious, how does a 17-year-old girl dance at a strip club in Alaska? I mean, you can't buy booze or cigarettes, but you can dance in a strip club. But also, I'm curious, to Leland Hale, author of Butcher Baker, his latest book, What Happened in Craig, Alaska's Worst Unsolved Mass Murder. Leland, first of all, there's the hurdle of a 17-year-old girl dancing at a strip club. But the fact that their bodies are in such remote areas tells me a lot about the killer, right? It tells you a lot about the killer. It tells you a lot about Alaska specifically. Vast state, easy to get away into remote places, which in part explains the carelessness about his brass.

He was so far away, he could only get there by boat or plane. There is actually a very rough road that goes to the Kinnick. I've taken it once. I would not recommend anyone else drive that road. So, yeah. The Kinnick River? He was using the bush as his sort of ultimate weapon. Wow, I like what you just said.

Using the bush as his ultimate weapon. The wilderness. Guys, we're talking about Butcher Baker. A mass killer. On the loose. In Alaska. Take a listen to this. Seward, Alaska is a small city over 150 miles south of Eklutna on the remote Kenai Peninsula. Highway maintenance workers come to do their job and they find a body. When the police get to the crime scene, there is a bear.

And this bear has been gnawing on the victim. Police have a choice, shoot the bear or lose their evidence to a bear. So they kill the bear. The body is wrapped in a moldy sleeping bag. It's a woman without any clothes. Her body's been dragged there, hastily buried.

There's no identification on the victim and the troopers transport the body back to town for autopsy. To you, Dr. Daniel Bober, the fact that this victim in a moldy sleeping bag getting gnawed on by a bear is naked tells me a lot about the motivation, Dr. Bober. What does it tell you, Nancy? It tells me it's a sex motivation. Whether or not the women have been raped is a completely different issue, but the fact that they were naked tells me that the bodies were either stripped before or after death. Now, why was it to sex assault them before death, after death, to get rid of evidence that may have been on the clothes. But the fact that two of the women so far have been coming from strip clubs,

one just a secretary at age 17. Now, the third body naked, that tells me it has something to do with the women being naked, which tells me it's a sex-motivated crime. I mean, I'm not the shrink you are. Don't try throwing my own question back at me, Bober. Which you just did. Well, that's what shrinks do, Nancy. So tell me, what does it mean to you? Well, I think you would have to examine the body closer to know, obviously, if there was any sexual assault.

But yes, I do think that there's a sexual element to it. I agree with you. To you, Leland Hale, author of Butcher Baker, latest book, What Happened in Craig, Alaska's Worst Unsolved Mass Murder. Leland, explain to me again where this body is found. Is this a separate body or is it the same one we were talking about, Paula Goulding? This is a separate body. A third body. Actually, a third body, yes.

And it's miles in the opposite direction from where Paula Goulding's body was found. So the Kinnick River is north of Anchorage. This body was found on the Kenai Peninsula, which is quite a bit south of Anchorage. So this also tells you a little bit about the scope of these crimes. And I said, you know, the wilderness, the bush is his ultimate weapon. So he's all over this wilderness in Alaska. And it tells me a lot about his psyche, because you have to be a wilderness expert to go that far into the outback, the forest,

a very, very heavily wooded forest to know where to bury these bodies, to hide them. So I think that we are now talking about a 24-year-old who definitely has a type. Youngest so far, so far is 17. Then you've got Sherry Morrow, 23. Now Joanna Messina, 24, who I think is the body in the moldy sleeping bag. You were just hearing Mark of a Killer on Oxygen. Now take a listen to Mark of a Killer with author Leland Hale. The coroner determines that the victim died from a.223 caliber gunshot wound.

It's a hard part rifle. That's a type of weapon that you use to kill large game animals. The hunters would be familiar with. By fingerprints, the human remains in that shallow grave were positively identified as Joanna Messina from Seward, Alaska. Police start to interview people who know her. Joanne Messina is a prostitute trying to get a job in a cannery. Joanna's friends tell police that Joanna went to meet a man who promised her a shopping spree, but she never returned. I talked to her friends about it.

Boyfriends, parents and the relatives. Everything we did turned out nothing. No suspect. Straight out to Leland Hale, author of Butcher Baker, latest book, What Happened in Craig, Alaska's Worst Unsolved Mass Murder. Leland, what is the MO? Are all the women shot? Yes.

Where on their body are they shot? Is it always the same? It's a kill shot, so it's usually to the torso, sometimes right through the heart. What do you mean by a kill shot? Well, so you're aiming for the widest, broadest part of the body where all the internal organs are. So that's the same as police or trained military men. Yeah. To you, Dr. Kendall Crowns, deputy medical examiner, Austin,

have you ever heard of a kill shot? Yeah, I've heard people refer to a kill shot, specifically an execution type shot where they shoot an individual in the back of the head. Often it's associated with mob type hits where they put the kill shot with another shot and then leave the gun at the site. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about one of the most prolific serial killers to ever walk the U.S., this time centered in Alaska. The FBI desperately developing a criminal profile to Leland Hale, author of Butcher Baker. Explain to me, Leland, what the profile was that the FBI came up with. Well, they thought it was somebody who was a hunter. Yeah.

They thought it was somebody who was a hunter. Yeah. They thought it was somebody who was a loner. They thought it was someone who was a businessman, had some sort of cover. But I don't get why they're saying loner. Of course it's a hunter because they're out in the middle of the woods and the bullets indicate a high-powered hunting rifle. I mean, I can figure that much out. I don't know why they're getting businessman because he could pay to tip strippers. I mean, a construction worker could do that.

Anybody can. If you can pay the cover to get in a strip bar, that doesn't mean you're a businessman. Where'd they get that? Well, because they figured quite accurately that some of these bodies found on the Kinnick River were probably transported there by plane. Ah, okay. And so even though Alaska has a very high rate of private plane ownership, it still umps the ante of who was in that picture to afford it.

Now I get it. Because these areas were so remotely inhaled that they could only be gotten to by plane. Is that what you're saying? Some of these areas for sure. Yes. And especially on the connect. There's no roads of any note going there. You can get there by boat. It's a little harder when you're trying to kidnap somebody and take them to a remote place. Guys, finally, we get a break. One of the would-be murder victims lives. Listen to Anthony D. Call in A Hunter's Game. On the early morning of June 13, 1983, Cindy Paulson, age 17, ran down an Anchorage highway. She was partially dressed and in handcuffs she managed to flag down a passing truck

She was running for her life The motorist dropped her off at her motel apartment The desk clerk had called the Anchorage police. Ms. Paulson? An officer removed her handcuffs and tried to calm her. You all right? Here, let me get this. Anchorage police officer Greg Baker recalls the incident. We found her in handcuffs with very little clothes on. She was real credible. She was very scared. She was very frightened. Guys, the woman is half naked, running for her life in handcuffs. Now, to you, Dr. Daniel Bober, don't throw my question back at me, okay? What does it tell you that the victim was handcuffed?

It tells me it could be a few things, Nancy. It could be that that was the way that he subdued the victim that he used as a tool of control, or it could be part of something ritualistic sexually. You mean S&M bondage? Correct. Why am I having to spoon feed you baby food, Boper? Out with it. What kind of mind wants the woman to be handcuffed. Someone that enjoys the thrill of the power and the control, Nancy. Guys, what do we learn from her? She manages to live to tell the tale. Listen. Paulson told Baker that she picked up a trick

the night before. She described him as wiry, scruffy, about six feet tall, with glasses and a stutter. He was not the kind of person she thought of as threatening. described him as wiry, scruffy, about six feet tall, with glasses and a stutter. He was not the kind of person she thought of as threatening. But as soon as she stepped into his car, he handcuffed her and put a wood handle revolver to her head. They drove to a respectable residential neighborhood.

He pulled her into his house. The place was well kept and full of hunting trophies. He had a chain hanging from the ceiling of his den. He chained her up and stripped her. And there she was tortured and raped repeatedly for hours. Then he went to take a nap, leaving her there. But he wasn't through yet. He said he was going to take her to his cabin in the wilderness. He said if she tried to take her to his cabin in the wilderness. He said if she tried to get anyone's attention, he'd kill her and them as well. He told her he already had his alibi worked out. His friends were willing to lie for him. No one would believe her

story. Wow. So he gets her into the home. And I find this very, very interesting. To you, Jennifer, sham forensics scientist at jenshamforensics.com. I always use Scott Peterson as a good example because it's easy to relate and to understand. Have you noticed that criminals always go where they're comfortable, where they've been before, someplace with which they are familiar to dump a body or commit a crime. Peterson was a fisherman, so he kills Lacey Peterson, according to a jury and the California Supreme Court, and dumps her body in the San Diego Bay, excuse me, the San Francisco Bay, because he's fished there many, many times before. We see it over and over and over. So in this case, according to this young girl, just 17, who lives

running down the road naked and handcuffed, half naked and handcuffed, she says he takes her to what she believes is his home in a, quote, respectable residential area. What is it with criminals?

They always go to a place that's connected to them in some way yeah it's kind of shocking it tells you a couple things number one that he absolutely was going to kill her because bringing her into his home where she could you know basically discuss what she had seen and did that in fact when she got away it ties her to him so his thought must have been that he was going to kill her. And, you know, murdering someone or torturing, raping them, it's a risky business.

So you do tend to see serial killers concentrate in areas that they feel comfortable. So that is a measure of control they have over their environment. But actually to have her in his own home, that's not something that I've seen a lot. That is actually pretty startling. I can understand particular places in the woods, et cetera, but to bring her into his family home where he was married and had children, that is pretty, that's very unusual. So right now we've got Cindy Paulson, just 17 years old,

trying to explain to police what happened to her. So far, all she can say really is that the guy took her to a home, what seemed to be a respectable residential area. Their words, not mine. But other than that, that's all she can say in addition to a general description. But then she gives a detail that makes sense. Take a listen to Anthony D. Call, Hunter's Game. They ended up at the airport. She could see him loading a weapon into a small aircraft. She also saw her chance for escape, her one chance to save her life. The story sounded outrageous, but her genuine terror compelled Officer Baker to check it out.

I had a very street smart female, scared to death, with a story about being taken at gunpoint and held prisoner at a specific location that she described where it was, so she knew where it was. She described the interior of the location. She described a den, up to and including various animals who were mounted on the wall. En route to the hospital for an examination, Paulson insisted on stopping at the airport to show police the airplane she had seen earlier.

She positively identified it. While we were in there, we had a security guard stop us and describe the car the same way that Cindy described the car and in fact gave us a license number. That license number confirmed the address or the area at least that Cindy had given us. crime stories with nancy grace guys we were talking about one of the most prolific serial killers to ever walk the u.s or its territories butcher. Now we're getting somewhere to Leland Hale, author of Butcher Baker, his latest book, What Happened in Craig, Alaska's Worst Unsolved Mass Murder. Leland Hale, now we're narrowing it down. We now have somebody that owns or rents a plane, a car description, and a tag number. Because when you go to a private airbase, they take your tag number from your car as you go in and out.

Usually there's a security checkpoint to get into most of them. So now they're starting to narrow down who the guy might be. What can you tell me about this girl, Cindy Paulson? Well, she was addicted to cocaine. She'd been dancing in a bunch of clubs and hooking on the side. She'd run away from home, was strange from her family. She

was obviously very scared but somehow this young woman as scared as she was just had an incredible memory for detail so going back to the plane that was the plane it was the plane and they by the way you could also identify the plane because it has a tail number that links it to the same person that they're looking for in terms of the car. She was chained up in this basement for hours while he slept, watching the clock tick, tick, tick, knew she was going to die and was determined to live. It's not my time. That's what she said. And she was right. Chained up in a basement, watching the clock tick, tick, tick,

after hours and hours of rape and torture. Finally, because of this young girl, who would normally face horrible credibility issues on cross-exam, addicted to coke, stripper, hooking on the side. But this girl is telling the truth. Take a listen to A Hunter's Game. On the surface, Baker found nothing in Hansen's record to arouse suspicion. He had moved to Anchorage from Iowa 16 years earlier and opened a bakery.

It was a huge success. He had a wife and children, and except for his stutter, he fit in completely. When he wasn't in the kitchen, Hansen enjoyed flying his small airplane, a Super Cub Piper. Back on the ground, he took to the woods. He was a solid citizen.

He just didn't fit the model of a serial killer. There were plenty of others drifting through Alaska more suited to that role. They didn't have businesses. They didn't have families. Hanson did. He had everything to lose. Let me understand something.

Leland Hale, author of Butcher Baker. This guy, Hanson, had a wife and children. How do you bring a rape slash murder victim into your home, into your basement with them in the home? How do you go from being a, quote, nerdy local baker into a serial killer. So these killings Bob described as his summertime project. His wife was a teacher, and he often arranged for her to be out of town. So she would go to Arkansas to visit her family. The summer that this occurred, she was in Europe for several months. So he had the house to himself.

And he planned these excursions, helped his wife plan these excursions, sometimes a year ahead. Wow, Leland, that is a lot of planning. So he's planning the murders a year ahead of time? He is planning liaisons. In fact, five days before Cindy Paulson was brought there, he brought another woman there. He'd advertised in what's called the Sunday Singles. She happened to be Alaska State Trooper secretary. He brought her to the same place, and she said, no, I don't want to have sex on the bare-skin rug, and he let her go. Five days later,

Sandy Paulson is in that same place with a different outcome. Guys, we were talking about the so-called butcher baker, a serial killer posing as the local baker. What can you tell me about his bakery, Leland? It was very successful.

His dad was a baker from Denmark, so he really learned at a master's side. He took baking jobs all throughout the Midwest before coming to Alaska, worked for other people, worked at a Safeway bakery for a while, and then got his own bakery. It was very close to, actually, it was very close to the Anchorage Strip where all the hookers. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So he's seeing them as he's got this seemingly normal life, and he had children as well? Two children, yes. And I guess they would go with mom when he would ship her off to Arkansas or wherever? They would go with mom when he would ship her off to Arkansas or wherever? They would go with mom, that's correct. Would he have a spate of murders that

he could fit in into her trip or was it one a year that we know of? Well, he was most prolific between 1980 and 1983 and we have a map with about what 17, 19 20 marks on it so he was yeah prolific during that period the map he would bury his victims bodies and mark their graves with an x on a map that he that he had but you know what we're saying how did he transform from a meek, mild, nerdy local baker at a bakery into a mass murderer, a serial killer. But you know what? All the signs were there. Take a listen to the FBI files. In 1967, he moved to a lat hunting. Three years after moving there, his record showed he was arrested for the attempted rape of a young receptionist at gunpoint. He pleaded no contest to assault with a deadly weapon. A little more than a month later,

he was indicted for the attempted assault of an 18-year-old woman he'd followed home. As soon as the man got to Alaska, he was involved in theft cases, he was involved in abductions, he had psychiatric evaluations showing him to be really unstable and having all kinds of weird sexual fantasies and the rest true to the profile hansen seemed a respectable citizen so the courts were lenient in one case he claimed to have memory lapses and was given psychiatric treatment and five years in a work release program.

He abducted one of his early victims outside a coffee shop, took her to a cabin in the wilderness, and raped her at gunpoint. She was 17 at the time. All of this is fitting together as an M.O. I just don't understand how it was overlooked. Leland Hale, the 17-year-old receptionist, that's just like his other victims that we know of, two of them 17. Yes, it is. Curious, right?

Why didn't he go to jail for 20 to life on the rape? Well, the rape charge was dropped because the woman was a prostitute. And they felt like they had the better case with the other woman who he attempted to kidnap and rape because she was not a prostitute. She was a real estate secretary. OK, so one sex related attempt and rape after the next. And he never was put behind bars. I want you to take a listen to this guy, Robert Hanson, in his own words. Remember anything about what she looked like, her size, her hair? Was she bound in any way at this point? going out there i did not want her to see where where we was going and so forth i guess maybe it made me feel uh masculine or powerful or in control of my life.

As long as things went fine, you know, that was it. But this time it went too far. That time, you're listening to our friends over at Investigation Discovery. That time, I mean, how many murders do we attribute to Butcher Baker, Leland Hale? How many? Well, at least 27 and probably more like 30, 32. Hard to say. There's some on his map that he denied, of course. But there's a couple of marks in the middle of Resurrection Bay, Resurrection Bay near Seward, in the water.

So who knows, right? Guys, this perp, Robert Hansen, a local baker at the bakery, Walked amongst everyone, free. Never put behind bars for his sex attacks. Up to 30 plus murder victims. And FYI, he died of

old age behind bars. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.