Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Outrage as Slender Man murder movie targeting young girls to hit theaters after real-life girl stabbing

Episode Date: January 18, 2018

Slender Man, a fictional demon who came to life through internet memes, is headed to the big screen soon against the protests of a father whose daughter was inspired by the spooky character to stab another girl. Nancy Grace digs into the controversy with a panel including Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, lawyer & child advocate Ashley Willcott, and reporter Mary Hopkins. Reporter Paul Chambers tells Grace about an unidentified infant abandoned in a toilet at the Tuscon airport. Investigators are still trying to find the baby's mother and answers about why the boy was left on a restroom changing table.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. decreases, leaving you tired. So what can you do? Drink Super Beets. Super Beets Yummy Drink promotes the natural ability to produce healthy circulation and increased energy. Only Super Beets is made from beets grown to exacting standards and concentrated into super food crystals. Want to increase your natural energy? Call 1-800-516-0683 or go to nancysbeets.com. With the first order, you get an extra 30-day supply of Super Beets free and indicator strips to check how Super Beets is working for you. Free shipping! 800-516-0683 or go to nancysbeats.com today. When investigators asked why they did it, they both had the same answer. Slender Man. She said that he'd kill her family.

A 12-year-old girl lured into a densely wooded area, then stabbed 19 times, told, don't move too much, you'll die more quickly, and and be quiet and left there to bleed out dead. A 12 year old girl. I'm Nancy Grace this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Who who was the perpetrator who stabbed a little girl 19 times coming less than one millimeter from her heart her blood draining out of her body whose was the last face she saw that night her two 12 year old friends that's who her twoyear-old little friend girls from school lure her to a spend-the-night party, then lure her into a densely wooded area at night, sneaking out of the house so the parents can't hear. But they know they were carrying a knife. We have learned that a plea negotiation has gone down and a jury has agreed that one of the two 12-year-old girls is going to do time in a mental institution on attempted second degree homicide. The other who welded the

knife still has not been resolved. What happened? Joining me, Mary Hopkins, Crime Stories contributing investigative reporter. Mary, thank you for being with us. Joining me is Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of LA, and also with me, Ashley Wilcott, child advocate. To Mary Hopkins, how does a sci-fi character, a creepy, tall, spidery dude, deathly pale, kind of a blur for a face, dressed in a black suit named Slenderman. What does he have to do with this attack? Well, Nancy, Slenderman, like I said, he's a fictional character. He was born on the Internet in a Photoshop challenge back in 2009. And many children were so enamored with him.

Some thought he was a ruthless killer. Others thought he was like a guardian angel. And for the girls involved in this horrific crime, they believed that if they did not kill their best friend, Slenderman was going to harm their families. And that's what led to this. They set it up, as you said. They invited her over for a sleepover.

They went into the woods to play hide-and-seek. And then they stabbed her 19 times, all because of Slender Man. You know, they think, Dr. Bethany Marshall, as the lore goes, that they can then go live with Slender Man in his mansion. And these girls apparently believed that they would go after they kill someone. That's the price you pay to get to go live with Slender Man. They believe that Slender Man lived in the Nicollet National Forest there in Wisconsin. I mean, they're out in this beautiful rural area where you think there's no crime at all.

And then these two girls try to murder their 12-year-old little, quote, best friend. It's so hard to unwind the motivations in a case like this because the reporters saying they believed that this was all because of Slender Man. I mean, is it really? Or is it poor mental health? Or is it that these girls lived more in fantasy rather than reality? So there's a, there's a saying neurotics build castles in the sky, psychotics live in them. You know, there's a difference between 12 year olds who are,

you know, fantasizing about some Slenderman character and 12 year olds who believe that Slenderman is living in the woods and they're going to go live with him if they kill somebody. I mean, I'm really concerned about just how much these two 12-year-olds were engaged in a whole fantasy world about Slender Man. And also, you know, take Slender Man out of it. What was going on in these girls' minds? I mean, these are 12-year-olds who are homicidal. What's going on in their families? What's going on in their school life? I mean, what's goingerman. I think Envy. I think that for some reason, they didn't like this little 12-year-old. Maybe she was more beautiful than them. Maybe she was

smarter than them. Maybe she was more admired by her schoolmates. Or on the other hand, maybe she was more fragile and vulnerable. So, or on the other hand, maybe she was more fragile and vulnerable, so they targeted her. But I think we should take Slender Man out of it and think about what all the other motivations for homicide could be. Take a listen to this. We're a caller on Big Bend at the dead end just south of Rivera. Okay. 2-893-6469. He came upon a 12-year-old female. She appears to be stabbed.

She appears to be what? Stabbed. Stabbed? Correct. Okay. Sir, you still there? Yes. Hi, sir.

So are you with this 12-year-old female? Yes. She says she's having trouble breathing. She said she was stabbed multiple times. Stabbed multiple times? Yes. Okay, sir. Are you with her right now? Yes.

Is she awake? She's awake. Is she breathing? She's breathing. She said she can take shallow breaths. She's alert. Okay, stay with her. We're sending the police department.

Don't hang up, okay? Hold on just a minute. Don't hang up. Okay. Okay. Hold on just a minute. Is there any assailant around? I didn't even look. I don't hang up. Okay. Okay. Hold on. Is there any assailant around? I didn't even look. I don't see anybody.

Okay. Stay right with her, sir. Is she on the ground or is she standing up? No, she's laying on the grass. Laying on the grass. Stay right with her. Just let me know if she is remaining conscious or not. Okay?

Okay. Is there any bleeding going on? Her clothing has got blood on it. Cheryl McCollum, look at the brutality of the attack on this little girl. If a bicyclist hadn't come along and found her, she'd be dead right now. No question. That last stab wound was so close to her heart, Nancy. It was just a millimeter away. But again, I agree with Dr. Bethany. The crime scene itself tells you a lot. So they coax her over. They take her in the woods. So again, it's not in the house. It's not near where other people are going to be. And they thought she was dead. When they left her, they thought that was it and she was done. If this were my investigation, I would want to start with whose idea was it first. Forget Flinderman. Of those two perpetrators, it was somebody's idea first, and you work backwards from her.

Well, we know that one of the girls did the stabbing, and the other, I guess, to say it legally, and legalese would be aided and abetted. But this is the thing. Isn't it true, Mary Hopkins, that they planned this for months very clearly? There were notes at school. There were phone calls. There were massive searches online. They lived online looking at Slender Man lore. I mean, how nobody noticed? Yeah, and that was one of the

things that came up in the courtroom when the girls were there. It's like, how did the parents not, how were they not aware of what was going on? They knew what they were doing. They had a mission. They were going to kill their friend. It was all for Slender Man. And then even in court, Morgan Geyser told the judge that, well, she ended up having to stab her because her friend couldn't do it. So she said, so I did it. And it was so matter of fact, it was so like, it was just what I had to do. So I did it. You know, it's incredible to me that it's gone down this way. Take a listen to what the girls say. We have obtained actual police interrogation sound. Listen.

Flitter? Flitter, ma'am. Oh, Flitter, ma'am. And he has tendrils that are very sharp. Did you see him in your dreams, or where did you see him in? Oh, I've seen him in my dreams. So, did you think that you actually had to kill somebody to do it? Yeah.

Like, for real? Mm-hmm. When you guys were walking, you thought you saw Splendor? No, he was after... ...Royan stabbed her. So then how did you get the knife from Anissa? She sort of just shoved it into my hands, or was. And then I didn't know what I did.

It sort of just happened. It didn't feel like anything. It was like air. We said that we were going to go birdwatching. People who trust you become very gullible. And it was sort of sad. You just the girls the 12 year old girls in their police interrogation trying to explain who slender man is but listen to the parents i mean you know out to you cheryl i got freaked out when john david was constantly playing minecraft or as i

like to say to irritate him minecrafter but. But Minecraft, I'm like, get off Minecraft. Now he's playing some other game. And Lucy went from cat videos to, what are they, guinea pig videos. Now she's on gymnastic videos. I'm constantly sneaking up on them to see what they're watching. Did nobody notice they were obsessively looking at Slender Man, Cheryl McCollum? Probably not. And Nancy, the reality is a lot of other games, including Minecraft,

have kind of a little ode to Slender Man. They have a character based on him as well. So a lot of times parents, even though they know he's playing Minecraft, they have no idea there's any reference to Slender Man. Other parents would not even know who that was, period. Take a listen to what the parents tell ABC's GMA. Christy, I know that when you watch the interrogation videos, both your daughter and the other young girl seem to believe that Slender Man is real, that there was no difference between fact and fiction for them. During the interview tapes that we've seen, they thoroughly believed that Slender Man

was real and they wanted to prove that he was real. And you had no indication of this at home, that this was something that she was obsessed with or couldn't stop watching? We've never seen her watch videos or read stories or, hey, look what I found on the internet or anything. She was just typical. She was a typical 12-year-old at that point? You didn't think she had any of these?

Compared to the other three children, she didn't show any other signs of disbeliefs. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining me out of L.A., Dr. Bethany, I hope you're sitting down. In fact, you better lay down for this one. Take a listen as the girls are asked if they are sorry they did it. It wasn't necessary. Did you feel bad? I thought about it, but then I decided that remorse wouldn't get me nowhere.

It's easier to live without regrets than you can just decide that you don't want to feel. It's easier if you decide not to feel. You know what? To me, it's very clear to Cheryl McCollum joining me that these girls planned this. This was first charged as attempted murder in the first, homicide in the first. The plea they're taking is to attempt and murder second. But this is so orchestrated and planned. There's no way that they were mentally ill.

They may have believed in Slender Man, but they planned this. Down to the stabbing, they planned it. They took great time for months. They sent notes. They sent text messages. They met with each other. They picked their victim. They invited her over under this great, you know, blanket of, oh, we're going to have a spend the night party. Everything they did was to coax her over to kill her. So again, law enforcement would go back and they would look through how many times did they mention Slender Man? Was it really about him or was it really something they divide? Take a listen, everybody, to actually hearing one of the attackers, these 12-year-old little girls, explain how this brutal stabbing, 19 stabs on a 12-year-old little girl,

their so-called best friend, that's lured into the woods at night, stabbed repeatedly, and left to bleed out dead. This is how they say it went down. She was kneeling like this. Okay, hiding. Playing with how they say it went down. around her head while she's like that. Okay. And then she started complaining that she couldn't breathe, and I got off of her because she was making a lot of noise. Okay. Okay. And what happened next? And then I told Morgan that she's not laying down,

and then she said, tackle her and outstab her. To Ashley Wilcott joining us, child advocate, they were picking flowers, and then suddenly she's bleeding out. Nancy, I think that the public needs to know this means there is so much more to this story. These families should have had knowledge of what these two were planning. Like you said, there should be supervision of whatever kids, especially 12. 12-year-old brains are scientifically proven to not be fully developed. That doesn't happen until young 20s.

They do not make good decisions. They have to have guidance in structure. I do not understand how they could get from playing Slender Man or knowing of Slender Man to a deliberate, planned out, horrific attack and murder, potential murder. She survived, thankfully. Potential murder of another teenager. It's beyond comprehension to me I mean listen to this listen to this Dr. Bethany I'm going to reiterate what she said she was picking flowers

I was standing right here I pushed her over she was like this now and I sat here on her and she started complaining she couldn't breathe so I got up because she was making a lot of noise. I told Morgan she wasn't laying down, and she said, Tackle her, and I'll stab her. That is what Wire says. The three involved, Anissa Wire, Morgan Geiser, and the little girl, the victim in this case, Peyton. I mean, this happens out in the middle of Wisconsin where you think that your child

is safe. Did you hear those words, Bethany? Instead of being upset the little girl couldn't breathe, she said she was making too much noise complaining. So we tackled her so I could stab her. You know, Nancy, these are the kinds of words we hear from male perpetrators. That's what I keep thinking about. Like if these were two boys, I don't want to be sexist, but it seems like it would be easier to understand because what we see with young men who commit crimes is it usually there's like a male ringleader who's very

sociopathic and then he recruits younger, weaker males to kind of follow his bidding. But the twist here is it's two girls. So who was the ringleader? Who was she a sociopath? Is there such a thing as a 12-year-old sociopath, you know, such a severe corruption of conscience? I keep going back to what I know about young girls who commit crimes, you know, in this age range, that envy seems to be such a strong motivator, you know, that they find another girl who's prettier, who's more popular, who's well-liked, has, you know, gets better grades and all of that. And they can't stand the fact that that girl's doing better than them. So then they try to deface her in some way or disfigure or obliterate her.

And I would really kind of want to know more about that. If I was the interviewer in this case to try to figure out what were all those negative emotions towards their victim. Take a listen. So we told her we were gonna get help, but we really weren't. We were gonna run and let her pass away. I want to pause and thank our partner who makes our SiriusXM 132 program possible. Worried about blood pressure? You should be. It's one of the keys to heart health and well-being. If you're looking for a way to support healthy blood pressure levels and a simple lifestyle change, I found out about something awesome and it's called Super Beats. Super Beats is a convenient way to get those benefits every day. Super Beets providing a nutrient that helps support healthy blood pressure, working with the body's own natural system.

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thanks. Mommy always says that whatever you do catches up to you eventually. We are reporting from Wisconsin. Two 12-year-old girls lure their so-called best friend, also 12, into the woods at night, only to stab her nearly 20 times, leaving her for dead. And now they are apparently escaping jail time. One of the girls has already sealed her fate. She has pled guilty but mentally ill, and a jury then agreed. She is looking at time in a mental hospital.

She will be released when she's 35. Now, this is the girl who lures 12 year old Peyton Lautner to her planned death. So what about it, Cheryl McCollum? She's going to be walking free at age 35 after this brutal attack as she's spending the time probably, let's see, online doing origami, crocheting, playing ping pong. She may even finish high school and college. I don't know what I think about this. I can guarantee you this, Cheryl McCollum, I'm not inviting her home to dinner when she gets out at age 35. Not at all. And Nancy, nothing good is going to come of this. You know it as well as I do. We just celebrated Dr. King holiday. Dr. King, as you know, he was stabbed and his assailant went to a mental institution. They don't go there to be, quote,

cured. And, you know, the other problem is, Nancy, there's a movie coming out. Oh, my stars. Yes. The movie coming out. OK, hold on. Whoa, okay hold on whoa whoa whoa wait wait wait i'm glad you reminded me of the movie i'm stunned about the movie and the victim's father has launched a a petition to stop the movie but i want to complete this part one of the girls has now been allowed to plead guilty but mentally ill. She's going to be in a mental facility for about 20 years. That's what it boils down to. The other is set for a little more time, but the same general gist. She'll have guilty but mentally ill she'll do time in a mental facility a home and she'll be

out when she's about 40 i want to talk about the movie the slender man movie that the victim's family is totally against to mary hopkins what can you tell me about the slender man movie get ready for this one because sony Pictures has already released the first trailer for Slender Man. And obviously it's based on the internet boogeyman. It has screaming teenage girls, a girl stabbing herself in the face with a scalpel and a voiceover describing how Slender Man gets in your head like a virus. There's been a petition. You mentioned that Bill Weier, Anissa's father, he is furious with Sony Pictures. He's calling it extremely distasteful.

All it is doing is extending the pain of the three families involved. And people are getting on board, but Sony is moving ahead. They are ready to release this film in May. The Slenderman movie is a fictional story about teens who are, quote,. The Slenderman movie is a fictional story about teens who are, quote, infected by Slenderman.

And this first trailer for the Sony Pictures horror film Slenderman is out. And it's shocking and it's upsetting. It's popularizing a tragedy and it's capitalizing on the near death

of a 12-year-old girl. To you, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I don't understand a movie about this. I don't either, especially because I was watching the movie trailer prior to the show and the trailer seems to have a call to action, you know, as if they want teenage girls to go out and commit crimes. That's what I think is so scary. And we know that young women, girls, are very impressionable. And so why put out a movie like this that could influence young people to commit crimes?

The tagline is, hey, Slend Man gets in your head like a virus. And in every trailer, in every picture, you see young girls just like the girls in the real case. To you, Ashley Wilcott, this is so wrong. It'll be over my dead body that my children see this. Oh, God, it's so wrong. It's so wrong. It'll be over my dead body that my children see this. Oh God, it's so wrong. It's so wrong. And part of it is it promotes and encourages these behaviors in young girls. Like we said, 12 year olds, kids who some parents are going to let it see, let them see it, Nancy. Some parents don't at all supervise what their kids see, right? So they're going to see it and

they're impressionable. Their brains are at a place where they don't need to see this kind of activity promoted. The trailer is very scary. I don't see how this is appropriate for children. Nancy, I think there needs to be some real discussion with some young people because, as you well know, once parents start demanding something be taken away, they want to do it even more. So this movie is going to have a whole lot of people out front unless we just have some real honest conversations. What can you tell me to Mary Hopkins about an online petition? Yes, Nancy, 5,000 people have already signed it,

and the number is growing. Even the accused parents are saying the same thing. This is horrific. They don't want this movie to come out. They're doing everything they can to stop it. They're trying to get people to sign the petition. But like I said, Sony's already moving ahead. And even when you watch the trailer, it is.

It's frightening. And the fear is that it's going to encourage, like we've already said, it's going to encourage other teenagers. Well, it will. You're right, Mary. It will. will you're right Mary it will it's going on 6,000 people who have already signed an online petition complaining opposing Sony Pictures planned release of the movie Slender Man the character who seemingly inspired two Waukesha little girls just 12 years old to try to stab their sixth grade little friend to death. The trailer has just been released. It's supposed to come out in May. I mean, what will people do to make a dollar?

Is it worth it? People from all over the U.S. and other countries have gone online. The petition was started by Allison Paris, and Allison started the petition at Petition at Care 2. All over the world, people are joining in to oppose this. Do you really think it's going to work, Cheryl? No, Nancy. I think there's too much money to be made, and I think there's too much fascination between young teenagers.

What about it, Dr. Bethany? Any hope that this petition is going to stop it? Not at all. If anything, it's going to encourage the release of this movie because these producers are going to say, hey, there's this groundswell of interest in this movie. It might be negative publicity, but it is publicity, so we're going to have more viewers than ever watch our movie. You know, there have been so many ups and downs and twists and turns to this case,

but what we know, two girls are looking at 20 or more years in a mental institution because of Slender Man's effect on them. Now, one of their moms insists that her daughter was schizophrenic. However, there was no indication of that nor evidence of that before the attacks, at least brought to the authorities. But whatever the truth is, Slender Man played a major role in the brutal attack of a 12-year-old little girl. And somebody is going to make a lot of money off the Slender Man movie. But I can promise you this, it won't come out of my pocket. I want to pause and thank our partner making our program today, LegalZoom. What's your story in 2018? The holidays are over. There's no excuse left. Now, let LegalZoom make this a memorable year before other distractions take hold. Make this the year you get serious about launching and running your business.

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LegalZoom, where life meets legal. LegalZoom, thank you not only for what you do for Americans across the country every day, but for being our partner. And now we travel to Tucson, Arizona. An infant, a newborn baby has been found abandoned at the airport. Officials still don't know the identity, but they have confirmed that the baby was found there at the Tucson airport. I've been in it many, many times. Paul Chambers joining me, investigative reporter and journalist. Paul, what do we know right now? Well, Nancy, we know that an airport employee found the newborn infant in a restroom that was ahead of the secured area.

It was near the car rental counters. And it was about 930 Sunday night that the child was found clean, wrapped and left on a changing table in the restroom. And at this point, they're looking at the security video to see if they can find any clues as to whether or not the baby was born in the restroom or brought into it. And they also would like to identify the mother, not necessarily to arrest her because the state has a safe baby haven law that allows a mother to drop an infant off 72 hours or younger without fear of prosecution. However, you have to go to a hospital, find an ambulance or to any of many authorized areas to drop that infant off. You can't just leave it in a restroom at the

airport. And so they want to find the mother to maybe ascertain whether she's okay, whether she needs any help. And the boy, we're told, is healthy and is being checked out at a hospital and doesn't appear to have any problems. Joining me, Paul Chambers, investigative reporter, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute, crime scene expert, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A. And Ashley Wilcott, child advocate. I always look Cheryl McCollum back at the facts because I feel that the facts unlock the mysteries to the case. One thing that really jumped out at me, for those of you just joining us, an infant child, a baby boy, we don't know how old, but we think a newborn, has been found abandoned at the Tucson airport. So far, no one has claimed the baby. Cheryl, what struck me, and I'm going to have to go to Bethany on this as well,

the baby is perfectly clean, wrapped up in a blanket, and left on a changing table. That speaks to me. That tells me something, Cheryl McCollum. Oh, it speaks to me, Nancy, volumes. He was clean. He was healthy. He was well cared for. Just because you love the baby does not mean you're able to care for the baby. So it seems to me this person left him where another woman would find him, where he's, you know, safe on that table, strapped to that table. He's unharmed. He's warm. He's been fed. So again, this person seems just like the law says.

They're either unable or unwilling to care for him. Doesn't mean they wanted to hurt him or didn't love him. I think you're right. It's still... Why am I always the bad one, Dr. Bethany? Yeah, you love him but you leave him alone on a bathroom table in an airport

where airports are notorious for child trafficking. Hello? See, I agree with you, Nancy. This is one of the few times I've ever disagreed with Cheryl McCollum because when she said safe and healthy on a changing table, my first thought was, well, what if the baby falls off? What if a predator comes into the bathroom? What if, what if, what if? I mean, an airport is one of the least safe places, as you just said. the baby appears to have been attended to and cared for prior to this, that actually makes me wonder about the mother as well. Maybe because I'm a mental health expert, I'm thinking, did something happen to the mother? I mean, is there something, you know, what mother leaves their baby in these kinds of circumstances? So I'm thinking, you know, was the mother high on drugs, bipolar? Was there

something that made the mother so compromised that she just walked away from the baby? Because if you're cogent enough to care for a baby, you're cogent enough to leave the baby in a safer place. And that's, that to me, those are the facts that don't quite stack up well yeah i mean cheryl mccullum hold on hold on sister you want to tell me you left one of your children alone on a changing table never ever never just that's a yes no that's a yes no what human trafficking is a science they are handed off whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're saying you never once left your child alone on a changing table. There were the two times in my life I turned away from the bed in our apartment in New York to get a towel to change the children.

Both times they jumped, fell, slid off the bed. When my back was turned 20 seconds to get a towel, they both fall off the bed. I'm, of course, it's just before I have to go to work. I'm out in the street screaming and crying and snotting for a cab to get to an emergency room. Okay. That does, it never fails. So you wisely never turned your back. But you're saying, oh, the mom loved him so much because she bathed him and wrapped him in a blanket and left him on a table in an airport. Hold on. Hold on.

Airports are hubs for human trafficking, especially of children. Children being transported into forced labor or exploitation, every country in the world affected by traffickers. And again, for so many very obvious reasons, airports are the hubs of child trafficking. But you say, Cheryl, she loved the baby. Now, I think you should revise your opinion. Nancy. What? Human trafficking, as you well know, is like a science.

I mean, they hand that baby off like a baton during the 440 relay. So, this child, if it were somebody that just happened to go into labor and have the baby in the bathroom, they were certainly prepared because that baby was cleaned up, that baby was put in new clothes, and that baby, they had a blanket. This seems, it has the feel that somebody wanted this baby to be found, and they had to leave again. So they were in too fine, and they either rented a car and went back to college or went back home. This does not have

the feel that this baby was harmed. If this was a baby that was born to a drug addict, they would know by looking at this child that he was born of a drug addict. He wasn't preemie. He wasn't sick. He wasn't unhealthy. He wasn't harmed. This is a baby that was born, it appears, to somebody that was healthy and willing to let somebody else care for him. Well, if they're so willing, you just heard Paul Chambers talk about safe baby haven laws, which means up to a certain point, you can drop your baby at a fire station, a police station, a hospital, but they've got to be designated safe havens to Dr. Bethany.

Nancy, you got to let me jump in here. You got to let me tell you. Okay, hit me. Think of Susan Smith. How many people would have taken those children? So forget the 72 hours. If you decide I cannot take care of this three-year-old. For the love of God, take that three-year-old somewhere. Drop him at my house. I'll feed him some cereal right this minute. I agree with you, Cheryl. I agree with you, but not at an airport. Don't leave the baby alone unattended in an airport.

Ashley Wilcott, can you talk some sense into her? I completely agree. Something's hinky in this case because I do agree the baby appears to be healthy. Check. Great news. But who's going to leave the child in an airport, like you're saying? And the safe baby haven is very proactive in a way to protect children from parents who are unable to care for their children, because that's going to happen at some point in time. A parent simply can't provide for a child

doesn't mean they don't love them, but it specifically gives places that you can take the child so that the child will be treated and not further harmed. Fire stations, hospitals, private welfare agencies, churches, Indiana even said, hey, let's have what we call a baby box, an infant box where you can leave these babies and they get proper medical care and treatment and no stranger's gonna pick them up and further abuse them. So that's the problem with this case that I see.

Is it good that the baby was healthy? Absolutely. Is that the right place for a rational parent who loves their child and wants to care for their child to leave the baby? No, it definitely isn't. I hear the two of you and I'm, I see the truth in both of what both of you were saying. Cheryl McCollum is advocating for the safe baby Haven, which I agree with. If you can't keep the baby for whatever reason, I don't care. Give it to somebody that wants a baby. There are millions of people. I'd love to take in a baby that doesn't have a home.

So that's her point. My point, and I think Ashley Wilcott agrees, is don't leave it at a child trafficking hub. Okay, that's not a good idea. So to you, Paul Chambers, joining me, we don't know yet whether the baby was born in the bathroom or whether he was left there after being born. But what about security footage? I mean, airports are like casinos. I don't know how good the footage is at the Tucson airport, but I assume pretty good, right? Well, if it's an airport, obviously security is the main concern. Even though this is outside the passenger screening area, you have to imagine that there were several security cameras near this particular public restroom. And they are going to be looking at this material, the footage from these surveillance cameras, to try to determine whether exactly who brought this child into the restroom

and left it there. Well, here's another clue. I got another clue for you. What about this, Cheryl McCollum? The baby boy was found in a restroom near the rental car counters and outside airport security, which means this person never went through the security line through the metal detector, i.e., through all those cameras. This is before security. This tells me the mom may not have taken a flight, that she may have come, dropped the baby, abandoned the baby, and left Cheryl. No question,

but Nancy, I'm going to still say children are stolen from hospitals. Children can be taken from anywhere. This person did the right thing if they left the baby because they were going to harm the baby or because they couldn't care for the baby or they didn't want the baby because they were going to harm the baby or because they couldn't care for the baby or they didn't want the baby so before something drastic is done because we see that all the time nancy and you and i have personally seen it where they leave the baby outside and it's reasonable i agree i agree with that better to leave the baby anywhere that end up killing the baby and burying it in the backyard by the barbecue pit, like a case we recently covered. I give you that, Cheryl. I give you that. But that's what I always tell my husband. I'm like, I'll say, could you speed up just a little bit? He goes, I don't want

to kill anybody. And I'm like, David, isn't there a happy medium between going 150 MPH and running down children in a crosswalk and going 25? Isn't there somewhat something we can agree on in the middle, like maybe 50? So my point to you, Ms. Cheryl McCollum, is that isn't there a better alternative between killing your baby and burying it by the barbecue pit and leaving it at a child trafficking hub? I mean, couldn't you leave it outside a church, outside a hospital, at a police station? Anything? I mean, Bethany, you're the crazy doctor. Am I crazy here? Well, actually, I'm thinking about something Cheryl said and the fact that this could have been a young mother.

And because we know that women who give up their babies, whether they take them to a safe harbor place or they kill the baby, they don't really conceptualize that they're pregnant. They don't bond with the baby during pregnancy, that the baby feels like an it rather than a he or a she. And the fact that the baby was tended to and left in a highly trafficked area does imply that the mother had some thought about the welfare of the baby. Because, you know, Nancy, we cover so many stories where the baby's in a gas station bathroom, the mother tries to flush the baby down the toilet, it's left in a trash can in a dumpster. And actually, this mother did choose a highly trafficked area, which means that she did not want the baby left unattended for a long, long time. So you think of an immature mother, a young mother, they're maybe not thinking about, you know,

child human trafficking. They're thinking about what, where can I leave the baby where a lot of women are going to come in and out in a short period of time. So that baby will not be left on that changing table for a long time. It's not how you and I would think, but maybe that's how a 16 year old would think. Nancy, this is Ashley. I just have to, you know, I hate to say something nefarious as a foot. I think it's hopeful that it's as innocent as this mother is choosing to leave her child where someone can get the child. In this day and age and what I see every single day as a judge in juvenile court, I have to worry. What if it's a mother who sold the baby and the terms were, oh, I'm going

to leave the baby and you're going to come in and get that baby right away. What if it's the baby? What if the mother is a criminal and said, hey, I'm okay selling my child for sex trafficking. How are we going to make this swap? I'm going to leave the child. You pick the child up. I'm not saying that happened. I am not accusing this mother of anything, but I do think it's naive to not think that there could be something nefarious afoot. There is something nefarious afoot, and that is a baby was abandoned and it could have been kidnapped, exploited,

who knows what, but right now the baby is safe and sound. If you have information, here's the tip line, 520-791-4444, 520-791-4444, or 520-791-6813, 520-791-6813. We are waiting for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.