Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - OUTRAGE: Cult Mom Lori Vallow Attorney demands private jailhouse cellphone

Episode Date: February 1, 2021

Lori Vallow's attorney wants his client to be given a cell phone while in custody on conspiracy charges. Mark Means filed a motion for the phone says that pandemic conditions have significantly limited his ability to communicate with this client and that there is not adequate privacy for attorney-client privileged communications. Joining Nancy Grace today: Ashley Wilcott - Judge and Trial Attorney, Anchor at Court TV, www.ashleywillcott.com Dr. Jeff Gardere - Board Certified Clinical Psychologist, Prof of Behavioral Medicine at Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine www.drjeffgardere.com, Author: 'The Causes of Autism” @drjeffgardere  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network Eric Grossarth - Reporter, East Idaho News dot com, Instagram/Twitter: @EricGrossarth Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Does it never end with this woman? Of course, I'm talking about cult mom Lori Vallow. Just to cut the chase, two of her children are found dead, buried in the pet cemetery of her brand new husband-husband model number five, backyard, burned, dismembered, obviously dead. Do I need to hear any more from her? Well, sadly, she won't go away. She's not going to go down quietly. In the last hours, cult mama Lori Vallow demands she gets a private cell phone behind bars. Call Mama Lori Vallow demands she gets a private cell phone behind bars.

Not only that, the beginning of dissension within the ranks. Is there a crack forming between her and her fifth husband, cult leader Chad Daybell? I hope you're sitting down. For this, you may need to lay down. Take a listen to our friends at KIFI Local 8. Well, Lori Vallow Daybell's attorney now wants her to have a cell phone in the latest motion filed last week. Now, on Tuesday, Attorney Mark Means also asked for jail cameras to be turned off whenever he and Vallow meet face-to-face. He says giving her a cell phone would allow them to communicate with each other, citing COVID-19 safety restrictions at the Madison County Jail. Now, at the same time, he says their face-to-face meetings are in public areas,

and when they're allowed to talk on the phone, it's on a recorded line. He argues these circumstances are unfair when preparing for trial. A hearing on his motion has not yet been set. I guess not. That's probably way, way down the list of priorities for the judge in this case. With me, an all-star panel, judge, trial lawyer, anchor, Court TV, Ashley Wilcott. You can find her at AshleyWilcott.com. Board-certified clinical psychologist, professor of behavioral medicine, Touro College, author of The Causes of Autism on Amazon. You can find me at drjeffgardier.com.

Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a brand new hit series on the True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaisons. But first, to our special guest joining us from the EastIdahoNews.com, Eric Grossarth. Eric, what's next? Does she want special organic food behind bars and a back massage and a pedicure? What? Who jumps up to a judge and says, I want my own private cell phone behind bars? Didn't she read the rules about when you murder your children and you go to jail, you don't get a private cell phone? You know, I laugh when you bring up the organic food and everything behind jail. Why? Please don't tell me she asked for that, too.

No, no, she hasn't brought that up. But I was talking to some other jails around the area that Lori and Chad are not in. And they're like, our job is to make sure that they're safe. They don't hurt other people and ourselves. I mean, I've heard people say that it's not a five-star hotel to be inside jail. So asking for a cell phone, it's kind of out there. I mean, that's against the rules. You don't have cell phones in jail.

It's just all part of that. They want to keep everything restricted and safe in that jail environment. So it's definitely something that I've never heard of before. Yeah. And Jessica Morgan, professor of forensics, I believe, and I think it will be proven at trial, that a lot of communications between cult mom Lori Vallow, her co-defendant, husband model number five, cult leader Chad Daybell, her husband, I mean, her brother, now dead under serious circumstances, and others communicated by cell phone. I'm going to hand a cell phone back to her? No. No, it's ridiculous.

It's like giving someone a gun that has a proclivity for shooting people. You don't want to do this because a lot of this a lot of this stuff, you know, we've covered this for a long time. And all of this is about networking with one another. And this in this communication they have. And I think that they probably even talk in probably a coded language that's in their mind, at least theologically based. There's been certain things that have come out about this along the way. So yeah, I wouldn't touch this with a vaccinated crowbar. They can completely forget getting a cell phone if I was in charge of that jail. Eric Grosser, EastIdahoNews.com. What can you tell us about allegations?

There have been communications in code so kind of how this whole thing works in jail right mark means goes into the jail and because of covid19 they're not letting people go face to face of course there's a glass panel between uh mark and laurie so and on each side there's a phone they pick up and they talk back and forth. And in this document, Mark actually includes photos and it's kind of hard here just talking about it to fully see it, but Mark's going to be holding up a document for Lori to read on the glass while Lori's talking on the other side. And he's upset too, because there's cameras in these rooms. It's not like a private attorney room where they meet face to face,

no cameras, anything like that. And so these are all part of his concerns that is happening here inside of the jail. So the big thing is he wants those cameras off and he wants that cell phone so that he feels like Lori's attorney client privilege, which of course is part of the constitution, is protected. Now, what will come from this? We don't know. Don't care. Don't care.

I mean, help me out, Dr. Jeff Gardere, and don't please tune up about how somehow way back when maybe she was underprivileged or she didn't get her master's degree that she always wanted. She competed in Mrs. What was it, gross thought? Was it Mrs. Arizona or Mrs. Utah? What was she in? Texas. Texas.

She ran to be Miss Texas. Yes. Thank you for that correction. She couldn't go on from Mrs. Texas to Mrs. Universe or whatever. Don't do it, Gardere. Explain to me

instead. I won't. I want to understand how someone who a grand jury believes had a lot to do with the murders, the dismemberment, the burning of her 16-year-old girl and her seven-year-old little boy. She's what, some wilting flower that she can't sit in a room that all the other inmates use and speak to her lawyer. She's so special. I'll tell

you who's special. Tylee and JJ. That's who's special. You're absolutely right. And of course, I've never examined Lori Vallow, but from what we know, from what we can see, this is someone who has always been front and center as far as getting her needs met. It really has always been about some sort of personality where she wants everyone to well to exceed. I'm raising my hand. Can you call on me? Oh, yeah, go ahead. Yes, please. Because I want an answer from Eric Grossar of East Idaho News on something you just said. Eric, getting her needs met, no matter what. Isn't it true, and I may have this wrong, there's so many details to remember,

that she used her dead husband's Amazon account, i.e. credit card, to order her new wedding dress? It was definitely on her dead husband,les vallow's amazon account he she bought reams dress all of that was searched on amazon and she actually bought the reams and got them shipped guess where to her new house in rexburg just i just wanted you to have that little fact dr gardier please go ahead yes yes and but it doesn't surprise me in any way, Nancy. Again, this is someone who has always wanted to be the center of attention. And it's always been about her glory. It's not surprising to me that neither her nor the present husband have been involved in not answering any questions and really just making sure that they keep everything to themselves because again it's about their needs

crime stories with nancy grace for those of you just joining us cult cult mom Lori Vallow has laid down the law. She wants a new cell phone, a private cell phone behind bars, and she wants it now. Citing everything from cameras in the jailhouse to recorded pay phone calls to a glass between her and her lawyer. Listen, every inmate is under the same circumstances you are, cult mom Lori Vallow. So suck it up. Take a listen to our friend Dini Wimmer at KSL TV. The attorney for Lori Vallow Daybell is asking a judge to allow her to have a cell phone so she can talk directly with her attorney. According to court documents, Mark Means cited attorney-client

privilege and the need for privacy as the reason. Means alleges that he hasn't been able to meet with Daybell at the jail for several months due to COVID and that privileged phone calls were accidentally recorded or done in the presence of a deputy. Daybell is faced with charges related to the murders of her two children, J.J. Vallow and Tylee Ryan. Let me understand something to you, Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, court TV anchor at AshleyWilcott.com. The reality is anybody that makes one of these calls knows it. All calls coming out of a jail or going into a payphone at a jail are recorded. But why?

Because inmates plot other crimes. There you go. Just like that. And none of those calls can be used as evidence if they're between the inmate and the lawyer. So, I mean, you hear a recording the whole time, every like three minutes, you hear this is a call from a correctional institute. I mean, it's not a secret. Nancy, I've been dying to jump in. This is the first case in a long time where I'm flat out going to say, and I know I'm never bold enough to say it, but Nancy, I disagree with you. I think asking for the cell phone is brilliant on the lawyer's part. And here's why. Here's why. You're right. Everybody knows it's recorded. Everybody

knows that. And it is. But there's an argument that if a client has a conversation with a lawyer, knowing somebody else is listening or involved in that conversation, that they've waived the privilege because it's not just between the lawyer and the client, but rather between other individuals. Right there, Ashley, let's go Do you know, I mean, your theory is right, in the ether. But can you name one case ever in the history of our American jurisprudence where a phone call between an inmate and their lawyer was used at trial? No, but it could be. I think there's an argument. What was that first word?

It could be. Was it no? Did she say no? Because I think she said no. I did. Okay, so not one case ever. Not that I know of, but I think it could be, and that's the point. This lawyer is protecting the record to say these should not be recorded.

It is between the two of us. It is protected communication. There's no excuse for having a video recording, an audio recording. And he is not saying give us the phone. He's saying, Judge, I want an order saying cut off the video audio recordings of the attorney client privilege. And if that's not possible or doable, then give her a cell phone. I think he is protecting the record, and he is being a good lawyer by making this argument. To you, Eric Grossar, the reporter with eastidahonews.com, been on the story from the beginning. There's a reason that inmates don't have cell phones. There's a very good reason why they are peddled like contraband, like drugs and alcohol and razors and other weapons behind bars. Why don't inmates have cell phones? And as a matter of fact, why don't they just give you

a cell phone when you go into the jail for murdering your children? Why don't all the inmates have cell phones, Eric? You know, let's step back several months ago. Lori was calling other people while she was in jail. I mean, before these conspiracy destruction of evidence charges came about. She actually was on a phone call. Investigators were searching the backyard with her husband, Chad, there watching. So we know that there's these conversations going out between Lori and other people. And that actually came up during the preliminary hearing on this case was that phone call with Chad and Maury on those days. So, I mean, investigators

do monitor these calls, but I think what we got to look at too is that these jails use a system called Telemate around here in Eastern Idaho. So when an attorney needs to call in, he puts in his number and it's an approved number and they know it's an attorney. So it doesn't want it to be recorded and shared with all the investigators. So there is a way that the attorneys can call in and keep their conversations privileged, but it's definitely one of those, they don't just give you a cell phone because they want to monitor what's going on. I mean, there's chances that someone could plan something in jail or people talk about with people on the outside of, Hey, cover this up. There's lots of reasons, but cell phones in jails are just a big no-no from when I've talked with other jails in the area.

For those of you just joining us, Cult Mom Lori Vallow has demanded a private cell phone behind bars. To you, Justice Scott Morgan, you and I have been in way too many jails to even remember. Hopefully you weren't there for private reasons. But long story short, why can't inmates have cell phones? Oh, my God. You're introducing a tool, and it is a tool, into an environment where things can be planned, things can be schemed. And not only that, you're introducing an item into a jail. And this is in very broad strokes that can cause problems in the jail. You know, you mentioned drugs just a moment ago or or weapons or that sort of thing.

How many cases have we covered where cell communication has actually become weaponized? And listen, she might not be in this position if her kids weren't found slaughtered. Yeah, hold on. Hold that thought. If she hadn't traveled to Hawaii. Why is she behind bars anyway? Why is she without a cell phone to start with?

Do you know why? I do know why. Well, first of all, let's just point out, she's not have been charged with a murder of children. Why is she without a of all let's just point out why ashley's been charged with why is she without a cell phone i know but she hasn't even been because she's in connection with the deaths of her children yeah but she's charged she hasn't been convicted she's charged okay again she hasn't been charged with murder Your legal theories work out in the ether. But in reality, you know what?

Let's follow up on what you just said. To you, straight up to you, Eric Grossarth, East Idaho News.com. She's got a point. Ashley Wilcott has a point. Where in the hay are the murder charges or the conspiracy to commit murder charges? Why are cops, prosecutors, sitting on their thumbs? What more do they want? You know, that's really a good question.

I mean, what we do know is back in October, right, that recorded conversation we talked about last week on the show was that conversation between Lori, or not Lori, but Rob Wood, the prosecuting attorney, and Lori's sister, Summer Shiflett. And he said, yeah, we're going to be filing conspiracy to commit murder charges. That was, what, three, four months ago, and we still don't have them. I can't hold my breath forever, Grossarth. Just pass that on to the prosecutors.

And to you, Dr. Jeff Gardier, while everyone is twiddling their thumbs, waiting for answers, what do you make of the fact that, have you ever seen Cops, the show Cops? Remember? Of course. All right. And they play bad boy, bad boy, what you going to do? And there will be a scene of a guy sitting on his easy chair and the cops start watching TV and the cops just start running through his den. And he doesn't seem the least bit phased. Okay.

Here's my point. Jeff, do you remember when hubby number five, Chad Daybell, his yard was being dug up by the cops? That was right before he jumped in his car and tried to run away. And he's on the phone with Lori Vallow. And she's saying, well, what are they doing right now? And he goes, well, you know, they're digging. And she's like, well, have they found anything? You know, if my husband called me and said, there are some cops digging in the backyard, I'd say, what? Why are cops digging in the backyard? I'm coming home.

But that's not what they said. They said, did they find anything? And, of course, they did. They found bodies. So that was all on cell phones. You want me to give her another cell phone for her evil doing? Well, and that's the point, isn't it? This lack of affect, the lack of concern over the death of these children, much more concerned

about her own individual needs and her own comfort versus fretting and wondering, well, you know, I didn't do this, but who did do it? And that does not seem to be her concern. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. With me, what an all-star panel. Ashley Wolcott, who I'm torturing. Dr. Jeff Gardier, professor of behavioral medicine at Truro. Death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan.

And special guest from EastIdahoNews.com, Eric Grosser. Guys, in the last hours, we learned also of division in the ranks. Now, apparently, there is infighting. Colt Mom, Lori Vallow's lawyer, whining to the judge, hey, you gave him some evidence you didn't give us. Explain, Eric Grosser, what is the beginning in the crack of their facade? You know, I don't know exactly where this is going to lead where you're the one that told me well we'll step back here so yes there is some sort of right now hey you gave chad's attorney this document these videos oh you're on first name basis what is he going to invite you over dinner after the guilty verdict well well here's how it works. He's saying this.

He sent these documents into the court. It's a motion to compel that says, hey, the attorney needs to give me these documents because he's giving them to Pryor. I don't know exactly what all of them are, but there is these documents and there is a hearing to discuss this on the 17th, February 17th.

And he's going to argue that says, hey, why aren't you giving me everything? You're giving stuff to Chad's attorney, but not me. And so I don't know where that's going to go. But we'll find that out once this hearing happens. I'm going to go to Ashley. Yeah, jump in, Joe Scott. Hey, listen, I got to tell you, everything that happens in this case is haunted by the specter, in my opinion, of Tammy Daybell. This woman, we still don't know what

caused her death. We know that there was cell phone communication, this kind of faux communication that occurred with Chad. Remember those text messages he sent to let her know what he was doing and all of this kind of nonsense. And this haunts them. And you're talking about division and driving a wedge and this sort of thing. I can tell you, at least this is my thought as a former investigator, this is making them sweat because they don't know. They don't know what the prosecution knows at this moment in time about Tammy Daybell because it hasn't been released. They don't know. They don't know what the prosecution knows at this moment in time about Tammy Daybell because it hasn't been released. They don't know when the hammer is going to drop on her.

So, yeah, we've got these two precious children that are deceased, but they're in the background haunting every move. Every action is that specter of Tammy Daybell. They don't know where this information is going to come from, when it's going to land in their lap, when they're going to have to start fighting on that front. So yeah, I'm sure there's some very tense moments surrounding this whole thing. And there is a trail of breadcrumbs that leads through all of this, this deceit that goes on through this whole opera that we're witnessing in real time. Eric Grossart, was Tammy Daybell cremated? No, she was not. Because her body is still in the medical exam.

That's right. Thank you. Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, anchor, Court TV. I want to circle back to you when Eric Grossart from EastIdahoNews.com was reporting that Vallow, Cult Mom's team, is whining that her husband, Chad Daybell, the cult leader, his lawyer has gotten documents that her team hasn't gotten or evidence. You know, I don't think people get it unless you've had to do it. I remember so many nights at the Fulton County District Attorney's office

when I would be the only one left in there on a Friday night, important, because there was a 10-day discovery rule in the state of Georgia. If I had any documents or evidence left, scientific reports, statements, anything, it had to be postmarked 10 days before trial. I would be in there fighting at 8 o'clock at night, fighting with the Xerox machine to make sure I had gotten everything Xeroxed, filed in the clerk's office with a dated stamp on it in time, then getting in my car and flying to whatever FedEx was still open at that time to make sure the defense got it the next morning. That's the way discovery is. I would have piles and sometimes 20 piles of documents on the floor where I could see them to collate and get together what each lawyer was supposed to have.

And I had to get it out that night under the statute. There are time limits. We don't even have a trial date set here, a real one. So the whining is irrelevant. It's not time for them to have all the evidence yet. Right. I was going to say it's a little premature. So you're bringing back memories. I've done those exact same things to get it out on time for the defense. But listen, Nancy, here's the thing. The other piece of this is it does, you know, there's specific rules around discovery that

as practicing lawyers, we know we have to adhere to. And I'm certain the prosecution plans to do that. But that doesn't mean that necessarily every single thing Chad gets, she gets, right? It's evidence that's discoverable for the charges against her that she's facing for her involvement. And that evidence may not be the same. So she may not, under the rules of discovery, be entitled to every single thing that his attorneys are getting. And you're right. I don't think it's timely. It's not due, quote, unquote, yet.

So I don't think there's a valid argument yet to say that. Dr. Jeff Gardier with us, board-certified clinical psychologist, professor of behavioral Medicine at Truro. Dr. Jeff, is this the beginning of a crack between cult mom Lori Vallow and her hubby model number five, cult leader Chad Daybell? I certainly believe so. They, from the very beginning, refused to cooperate, would not give any information. Certainly, we're a unified team, and we are certainly seeing that this is the beginning of a crack, and hopefully, for the sake of the children who are gone, this will crack it wide open, and we will start getting somewhere with this mystery. Speaking of a crack, it's not only just about

their relationship as it is, but it's about trial strategy. Terry Grossarth, reporter at eastidahonews.com, aren't the two of them, as of right now, scheduled to be tried together? Yeah, so they're both together. So they were both filed as separate cases, but they had a hearing recently where they combined the two together. So they're going to have a trial together. It's scheduled for July of this year, but that could obviously be pushed back with COVID and everything. But that's where they stand. They will sit together in a courtroom while the jury listens to the evidence on this case. And so they are going to be tried together on this case. Got a question for you, Ashley Wilcott. As a prosecutor, I loved it when all the defendants would be tried together. Because

you look over there, when evidence comes in, the the jury look over they're all looking at each other and they're angry that this one made a statement and that one was caught with the bloody clothes and this one had the credit card receipt and they're all looking at each other like they're angry at this one because they're on trial i mean it's i call the melted cheese theory evidence of one melts down on the other and there's not going to be a severance unless it's a death penalty case, which as of right now, it's not. Or there are conflicting or interlinked confessions. What I mean by that is if Lori Daybell said, which she didn't, I had nothing to do with it. Chad Daybell did it.

Well, you either have to redact the name Daybell out of the statement and bring it in because we don't know Chad Daybell will take the stand so he can't be cross-examined. Under the Constitution, she would have a right to cross-examine anyone that made a claim against her and vice versa. So as long as it's not a death penalty and there are no interlinked statements, they're going to be tried together. Yeah, I think they're going to be tried together too. And that changes the discovery issue, right? When they're tried together, they are both entitled to the same information. Now, if I'm defense, I am going to, though, argue that it needs to be separated because of the prejudicial aspect of it, right? And that my client necessarily is prejudiced by the fact they see one of them throw the other one right under the bus and say, I didn't do it, he did it, or I didn't do it, she did it.

Hadn't happened yet, but I think it may be coming. In the meantime, the prosecution does want this case to be tried together, and at this moment in time, that's what we expect. I just think it may change. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, outrageous demands by cult mom Lori Vallow. What's next? A weekly massage, facial and pedicure. Right now, she's actually demanding to the judge she gets her own private cell phone behind bars. But how in the hay did this whole thing start? Take a listen to Lori Vallow herself.

Someone wise was speaking to me and said, you need to go to the temple. So I went and met my bishop and I was like, I'm either going to turn my life to the temple or I'm going to commit murder. Joseph died in April 2018, several months before this recording took place. At the time, it was ruled an apparent heart attack. But now, Phoenix police say they're going to review the case. Joseph's sister released a statement to Arizona's family saying in part, It may have been reasonable to perform a cursory autopsy and rule the cause of death as natural at the time. It went on to say, You were just hearing our friends at EastIdahoNews.com how it all started

is when Lori Vallow falls under the spell of Chad Daybell. As a result, her husband, her then current husband, Vallow, is killed. In addition to her previous husband, turns up dead. His wife dies in her sleep. Her brother, Alex Cox, ends up dead under mysterious circumstances. And two of her children, all dead. All of these players connected to one person, Lori Vallow. Straight back out to Eric Grossarth, reporter with eastidahonews.com.

What more can you tell us? Are the two of them, cult mom Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell, still canoodling by phone? You know, the two of them, they can't talk to each other. Once you're in jail like this, an inmate, let's say here in the jail where I am in Idaho Falls, wants to call an inmate in Rexburg where Lori is, you can't do that. You can't talk to other inmates from jail to jail. So their communication is cut off. I mean, they could write a letter to a family member who passes on that information to somebody, but direct talks since June when Chad was arrested, they're done. Lori, of course, has been in jail since

February, and she was able to talk on the phone with Chad. But since June, no communication directly between the two. You know, I want to go back out to our panel, to you, Dr. Jeff Gardier, clinical psychologist. Did you hear Vallow state, I'm going to commit murder? I did not hear that. That was in the last sound that we played. Yes, just in the last sound that she didn't join that cult that she would commit murder. And so that speaks volumes to the simple fact that this is a person who had very bad intent very bad issues uh happening in her life and no nancy i'm not saying that she was mentally unstable or that she was insane

but this was someone who was brewing brewing with a lot of anger a lot of hate in her life. And certainly, I think this does tell us that there is something very serious going on with regard to any connection with her children. Dr. Jeff, have you ever heard the phrase, don't speak ill of the dead? Absolutely. Okay. I want you to take a listen to our cut number eight from our friends at KSL TV. Joseph Ryan died of an apparent heart attack without anyone knowing. Annie Cushing, his sister, says she doesn't want the same fate for his daughter, 17-year-old Tylee Ryan. They were just madly in love. I had never seen Joe that happy. Annie recalls her brother Joe Ryan's marriage to Lori Vallow as a joyful start for the couple.

However, Annie says her relationship soured. The couple divorced when Tylee was 18 months old. Annie says she felt close to Lori until Joe's death in 2018 when she flew to Arizona to be with Tylee. There was also a lot of tension between Tylee and Lori. Annie says Lori discouraged Tylee from speaking about her dad. She would actually say the world is a better place without Joe Ryan. I mean that says nothing to you Dr. Jeff. The guy dies or her ex-husband dies and she says, well, we're all better off without him. The world's a better place. Which is also now brings us back to supposedly he died of a heart attack. But is that now a

suspicious issue? And of course, she's speaking badly about him and talks of parental alienation with her own children towards their father. This is not good. This, again, goes back to the whole issue of someone who's self-centered, perhaps a personality disorder. But it's all about her emotions, all about what she wants, narcissism. And I noticed, speaking of narcissism to you, Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator, you've been in the courtrooms for many, many homicide cases. Speaking of narcissism, when cult mom Lori Vallow made her first appearance, one of her first appearances in court,

she made sure that somehow before she went in that courtroom, it reminds me a little bit of Jodi Arias, who we saw primping and powdering herself and adjusting her hair and makeup. And this is while she's behind bars, but she's giving an interview about the murder of her lover, Travis Alexander. When cold mom Lori Vallow walked into the courtroom, she had just had her nails done, her toenails and fingernails, because she was wearing flip-flops. She had her hair done in mermaid curls. And somehow had gotten a hold of eye shadow and makeup and lip gloss behind bars.

I mean, you're in court about the deaths, the murders of your two children. And you're worried about making some homemade lipstick behind bars. Yeah. And, you know, that goes like Dr. Jeff was saying as well. This idea of narcissism relative to this, it shows you apparently at least, you know, in viewing this, how little value she places on life other than specifically her life, her outward appearance and this sort of thing. And, you know, dealing with narcissistic types and particularly sociopaths in killings, for me at least, you see that, you know, they have the ability to dehumanize victims many times and just absolutely do the most brutal things that most people can't even

begin to comprehend. I couldn't comprehend them when I would be standing even over the dead bodies. And so that gives you this kind of idea of diminishment that might be indwelling here. And, you know, and still not not willing to, you know, put forth the effort to help to help the investigators. That that's that's what's striking to me about this case that we've been following for months and months and months. And it's like the kids get left in the rearview mirror here, you know, all along. And it's all about her get left in the rearview mirror here, you know, all along. And it's all about her. It's all about Chad. Eric Grosser, our reporter with eastidahonews.com.

I know you say that there was a trial date. I doubt that's going to happen. When do you really expect the current case to go to trial? Or are you expecting a superseding indictment that will include murder or the conspiracy to commit murder? And what do you think the state is waiting on? Do they have to have everything nailed down with Tammy Daybell's case before these two were tried for the murders of JJ and Tylee? You know, this is one of those cases that is just so complex because there's so much at play. I mean, they've had to investigate

the death of Alex Cox and Joseph Ryan, which those two are closed out. Now they are still finishing Charles Vallow, Tammy, Daybell, and then the two children, JJ and Tylee. So there's four deaths that they're still looking at on these

related to Lori and Chad. I mean, these are things that they are still working at. And yes, there is the trial scheduled for July, but everything keeps changing. Just with the current pandemic around the world, everything gets pushed back. Trial dates, I've seen them changed over and over again. And so I'm not a scientist. I don't have the magic answer of when courts will open up again. So I can't give you a good answer of when that jury trial will happen. But it is set for July. That's what we are ready for. But again, it could change. I don't have that answer for you. Sorry, Nancy.

We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Gray's Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.