Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - PACE GRAD DISAPPEARS ON WAY TO FAMILY WEDDING: WHERE'S CHELSEA?

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

Chelsea Grimm attends Pace University in New York to study psychology. She graduates with a master's degree in social work. Putting her degree to good use, she works for the New York City Department of Education as a  social worker. Chelsea Grimm makes a change, heading to the West Coast, and settling in Ocean Beach, California.  Chelsea making plans to meet her parents at a wedding in Connecticut, but when she can't find an airline that will let her fly with her pet Bearded Dragon, Chelsea decides to make it a road trip, using the travel to take photos of forgotten soldiers and other special people at cemeteries across the country. On September 24, Chelsea Grimm leaves San Diego and heads for Connecticut.   Three days into her cross-country trip, Grimm arrives in Phoenix, Arizona, where she meets her sister and a friend. Grimm makes plans to meet the same friend for lunch the next day but cancels the plans.  On that same day, she stops at a motel in Seligman, about 160 miles north of Phoenix. The clerk says Grimm seems confused as she tries to book a room, exchanging Euros instead of US Currency. She mentions wanting to be "off-grid" and asks if there are any places in town that would exchange Euros.   From a motel in Seligman, Arizona, Chelsea Grimm calls her parents and tells them she isn't going to make it to Connecticut on time for the wedding, the trip is taking too long. She tells them she is going to camp out nearby for a couple of days and head back home to San Diego. The next day, September 28, Grimm leaves the motel and heads 40 miles east to a war memorial cemetery in Williams, Arizona. Williams police are alerted to a suspicious vehicle and when the officer checks, he finds Chelsea Grimm seated in her car, crying. She tells the officer she gets emotional taking photos for a lost soldier project and doesn't want to drive while crying.  The officer spends nearly 9 minutes with Grimm and asks if she has a hotel room for the night. She says she is going to camp and the officer directs her not to camp in the city, but she can sleep at Love's Truck Stop nearby, he tells her she won't be bothered there   Two days after talking to the police officer in Williams, Arizona, Grimm finds herself 19 miles west of Williams Ash Fork, Arizona. She is camping out in her Ford Focus SUV. A local woodcutter sees Grimm and talks to her for a few minutes, saying she isn't in distress or need of help. It is September 30. The woodcutter in Ash Fork, Arizona, is the last person to see Chelsea Grimm.  Grimm's parents report her missing on October 4. The next day, her 2019 White Ford Escape SUV is found abandoned on the side of the road with two flat tires in the middle of Forest Service Road 6 in the Kaibad National Forest, northeast of Ash Fork. Inside the vehicle, all of Chelsea Grimm's personal belongings such as her wallet, driver's license, clothes, sleeping bag, and her bearded dragon are gone. Police say there is no evidence of foul play  The area where Grimm's locked SUV is found is an area popular with hunters and loggers. An extensive search is conducted of a 3-mile radius around where her car is discovered. Her family believes that due to the intensity of the search, if Chelsea is in the area, she will be found. Hunters and loggers in the area also strongly believe she is not there. Chelsea Grimm's family hires a private investigator, Kelly Townsend, to help with the case. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Marc Klaas – Founder, KlaasKids Foundation; X: @PollyDad Andrew Stoltmann - Chicago Attorney and Adjunct law professor at Northwestern University, co-author of the book Waging War on Wall Street: My Battles Suing Banks and Brokerage Firms; X: @Stoltmann1971  Dr. Leslie Dobson - Clinical and Forensic Psychologist    Justin Yentes - Private Investigator for Grimm Family and Criminal Defense Investigator at Arizona Investigative Associates  Zara Barker - Reporter, Fox 5 San Diego; X @zarabarkertv   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous young Pace University grad sets out in her Ford Escape to meet her parents at a Connecticut wedding. But somewhere along the way, something goes horribly wrong. She never makes it to the wedding. Her car abandoned, but no Chelsea. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Hello. Hello. How are you doing? I'm okay. How are you? I'm doing great. Are you doing all right? Yeah, I just was doing a photo shoot of the lost soldiers and got a little emotional. So I was crying before I got back on the road.

Yeah, okay. I'm just making sure someone called it in. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, you're quite all right. I mean, I was just doing a photo shoot. Yeah, packed up. I'm going to leave soon. Okay.

I just didn't want to drive like that. Sad. You are hearing Chelsea. That's Chelsea. What's happening in this video is an officer sees Chelsea in her Ford Escape part. Now, Chelsea has a master's degree. She's a clinical psychologist, but she's also a very, very astute photographer. And she took it upon herself. She was going to a photo shoot. She was conducting a photo shoot about lost soldiers. And here is this cute, cute girl sitting in a car at the cemetery of soldiers and taking photos. And she starts crying and a cop comes up and says hey are you okay and

what's significant in my mind is she's perfectly fine at that moment for pete's sake a cop asks her hey you okay is your car working take a listen to more i don't know if you want somebody else to drive you or if you just want to hang out here for a little bit longer you're more than welcome to do that yeah if it's okay with you if i hang out here for another like 15 or 20 and then head on the road that would be my plan i think yeah i don't see any signs of impairment or anything like that so yeah no i that's i just i mean with my with my eyesight and then crying it's not the best combination at night i was like i'm just gonna like cry on the road or i'm just gonna sit here and cry so i i got my dragon and I'm just.

Oh, that's freaking cool. I didn't even notice that. Thanks, Rozzy. Wow, Rozzy. I think she's asleep. Wow. Right on. She got bored.

Yeah. I'm listening to her. She's talking about Rozzy, who is her new pet. I think it's Komodo dragon. Look. So she takes, and as a matter of fact, that's why she was going to travel by car to the Connecticut wedding because the airline wouldn't let her leave Rozzy the dragon. And as a matter of fact, my daughter, Lucy has a friend who is obsessed with this very type of pet. And I don't understand the attraction to a reptile,

but apparently it's very common. So instead of taking a plane and leaving the new pet behind, she wants to pet with her on the way to the wedding. Hence, she's driving. Take a listen to some more. Do you have like a hotel around here or anything? I don't. I was actually thinking of just camping for the night, but I wasn't really sure exactly yet.

Gotcha. I didn't plan to be here until sunset. Okay. You can't camp in the city limits. It's kind of like a city statute we have, but you can always go. I don't know if you can see like the yellow lights over there, the loves it's a trucker stop in the gas station area. You can just sleep there. Nobody will bother you. Okay, right there. Right there, I see trouble. Going to a truck stop at a woman alone at night. Yeah, I don't like that. And the fact that she couldn't camp in city limits, I understand that. But she's all alone and thinks she's going to camp for the night somewhere she's never been before and hasn't planned out.

Guys, we're talking about an absolutely precious young grad. she graduated Pace University and is now a clinical psychologist believe it or not got her master's degree devoting her life to helping others she agrees to meet her mom and dad at a Connecticut family wedding and she never shows up that's a bearded dragon not a Komodo dragon a bearded dragon joining me an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, including my longtime friend and colleague, Mark Klass, who has devoted his life to helping to find missing people. Before I go to Mark for his advice, I want to go to Zara Barker, investigative reporter, Fox 5 San Diego. Zara,er, uh, investigative reporter, Fox five, San Diego. Zara, thank you so much for being with us. Tell me about the decision to drive to the wedding,

as opposed to taking a very simple flight. Now, listen, don't get me wrong. I just took a cross country trip in an RV with my children. Okay. We ended up in the Tetons and Yellowstone and we camped out every night, but we had it planned, Sarah. I knew what RV camp, where we would stay at each stop. I had allotted, I worked with AAA to get a cross-country map to figure out how the hell I was going to do this. plan the menus, what we would need to cook out on a Dutch oven in a hole in the dirt every night, and it worked. But this was impromptu, a sudden decision. Tell me about that decision. Yeah, Nancy, it's been seven months since she was last seen, and we still have so many questions, including why she actually made that decision to take this cross-country road trip by herself. I mean, this was a big trek.

This was 2,800 miles from here in San Diego, California to a family wedding, as you said, in Connecticut. So we don't know exactly what her thought process was. We do know that she had intended to fly in the beginning, but she had newly acquired that pet bearded dragon named Rossi and she couldn't fly with that animal. So instead of flying and maybe leaving that pet with a friend back home here in San Diego, she decided to drive and make this 2,800 mile trek all by herself, which is where a lot of these issues tend to arise. You know what? I don't like Mark Klass and through no fault of your own, Zara Barker. Somehow, it sounds like we're saying, wow, it's her fault. She took a 2,800 mile trip across

the country. It's not her fault. Yes, she made that decision, but you know what, Mark, don't you ever just get up to here? I mean, think about it. Molly Tibbetts, Karina Vetrano, Eliza Fletcher, women minding our own business out for a jog, driving their car across the country. How do we end up targets so much? Well, it's a daunting trip. And I think we'll all agree with that going across country by yourself. It's not even something that that I would want to do as a man. But something went down in Phoenix and maybe in her head, maybe she met somebody. I don't know the answer to that, but something occurred in Phoenix. Unlike you, I don't think that there was any problem with her

camping by herself at a truck stop. I've worked with the trucking industry in the past and I've dealt with truck stops in the past and they have a good safety record. The last person I want to tangle with right now is Mark Glass. But let me direct you to my most recent book, Don't Be a Victim. You ever heard the name Israel Keys? He was a mass killer, a serial killer who targeted people camping at RV stops, at truck stops. It happens. And who gets targeted? Women. That's who. And this is not about truckers. This is about criminals. You know how many truckers have helped me solve cases? A thousand. This is not about them. This is about a sudden decision not to continue driving and to have an impromptu camp out. You don't even know

where, where you're going to be, what the security is. I mean, okay, Gabby Petito dispersed camping. That spot wasn't necessarily planned. She's dead. I mean, to go, let me go to Justin Yentis, private investigator who has been working with the Grimm family, that's Chelsea's family, also in the criminal defense investigators of Arizona at Arizona Investigative Associates. Justin, thank you for being with us. Please save me from a fight, an argument with Mark Klaskas. He's totally going to win. I already know that. But, Justin.

Happy to help. What does the the tell me about the search but oh hold on justin i've got a little more of chelsea's voice and that night which is the closest thing i can get to chelsea listen yes get some good shots at sunrise too there oh right on yeah yeah the sunrise here too uh if you ever want to take photo shoots like the statues in the morning it's it's really cool because the sun's like rises right behind them. Amazing! Okay, I'll probably stay at the truck stop then, save some money, and then come over for the sunrise. You got it! Cool! Alright, well you have a great time. I'm Blake. Thanks, Blake. You got it.

Appreciate your compassion. You got it. So yeah, just hang out here however long you want. You're good to go. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Justin Yentes, private investigator working with Chelsea's family. What were her movements after that when the cop says, hey, are you okay? Is your car okay? Why are you here? And she's doing a photo shoot. Very, very talented. What were her movements after that? So what we've done is compile somewhat of a timeline based on what we can verify. We know that her last phone activity was on 927 per AT&T. She's on a video at the motel on September 28th and then was on some folks' property later that day at 20, 100 hours at the Worthington's property.

And so we're really trying to narrow down every verifiable movement that she had. Unfortunately, she was an AT&T subscriber. So when the officers from Coconino County sent an exigent circumstances request to AT&T, they got less information than is provided with other providers. For example, with Verizon, if she were to be with Verizon, we would have received a list of the cell tower hits, the different panels that a cell phone had connected to. Unfortunately, AT&T does not provide that in their ex exigent circumstances missing persons requests so our ability to pinpoint where she was at is limited to the videos that that are on the internet and that have been shared these photos that

that were on her camera a couple of folks that saw her vehicle, the hunters that were out and spoke with her and this officer. So unfortunately, we're limited as to how much we can actually verify of her movements from that point on. Now, let me understand something about the AT&T issue. you? Are you saying they don't have the data, that it doesn't exist, that other cell phone carriers would have, or that you can't get your mitts on it, that it's there, but they haven't given it to you? It's the latter. So generally when you have a crime that happens, the officers will get a search warrant because they've got probable cause to do so. That didn't happen in this case because there was, according to the officers, they had no probable cause to obtain a search warrant to get the cell data records from AT&T. And so all they were able to get were the extant circumstances missing person files,

which were very limited with AT&T. Okay, hold on. When was that, Justin? When was that last attempt? The last attempt to get the cell phone records from AT&T was when it originally occurred. Now, we are in the process of... Do you have a question there? You seem mind blown. Yes. Yes, I do. Because many months have passed since then. And I would think logically that what may have been, hey, you know, we don't have any evidence of wrongdoing. But now her car is abandoned. She missed the wedding.

Nobody can find her. She's been gone for months. Wouldn't that be probable cause to get the full data to find her last cell phone ping? Ding, ding. That's that's what I have argued. We've worked together with Coconino County, with San Diego police, trying to build probable cause that the Coconino County Sheriff's Office would agree to present to a judge to get a search warrant. There's been differences of opinions on whether or not cause exists. Those from San Diego

felt that it did. I felt that we had at least enough to make an attempt. Coconino disagreed. So we have not been able to get a search warrant for those sell records. What is Coconino County? Where is that? That's where Flagstaff is located. It's right in that area where Williams is. Okay, Mark Klass joining me. This is a champion in victims' rights. Mark Klass, oh, that's completely bass-ackwards. She's been gone this many months, and Coconino County authorities are saying, yeah, we don't think we've got enough PC probable cause for a warrant to get the cell phone pings and all things. It's not like you're breaking into somebody's house and tearing them out of the bed.

It's getting some documents from AT&T. Yeah, it's definitely information that can help the case one way or another to be able to just track where she went. Chelsea Grimm is originally from Stamford, Connecticut, where she was raised by her parents, Stephen and Janet Grimm. Chelsea attends Pace University in New York, where she studies psychology and graduates with a master's degree in social work. Putting her degree to good use, she works for the New York City Department of Education as a 12th grade social worker.

Chelsea Grimm heads to the West Coast, moving to Ocean Beach, California, a beachfront neighborhood of San Diego. She's a licensed associate clinical social worker, photographer, and an artist. Three days, Chelsea arrives in Phoenix, where she meets her sister and a friend. Grimm makes plans to meet the same friend for lunch the next day, but cancels. Same day, Chelsea Grimm stops at a motel in Seligman, about 160 miles north of Phoenix, where she tries to book a room with euros instead of U.S. currency. She mentions to the clerk wanting to be off-grid and asks if there's any places in town that would exchange euros. So this woman, this young woman, a talented young photographer

planning to document her 2,800 mile trip, a road trip from her home in San Diego to meet her parents at a family wedding all the way across the country in What goes wrong? Her Ford Escape is found abandoned, but no Chelsea. Now we're hearing from our friends at Crime Online that she's there in this location, 160 miles north of Phoenix, and she tries to book a room with euros. Well, of course, that doesn't work. Zara Barker is joining us, investigative reporter, Fox 5 San Diego. Zara, I'm still hung up on the fact that neither San Diego nor Coconino County thinks there's enough probable cause to get a warrant for her cell phone pings. Because if I had that, I would know where she was last using her

phone not necessarily that it even was used but where it was pinging before it went dead or was destroyed then I could start looking for witnesses I could start looking for surveillance video stop can't stop like video businesses or business surveillance protection video. But I can't do that because I don't have the cell data. Yeah, that is very shocking to hear. You know, in my reporting, I was in contact with both San Diego police and the Coconino County Sheriff's Department. And when I contacted San Diego police, they said this is a Coconino County case. And SDPD could not even comment on it in any capacity.

So we don't exactly know the extent of investigation that SDPD has been doing, but it's clear that they're on board with even wanting this warrant. So we don't know why Coconino County is not wanting to get this warrant, especially with it being seven months since this has happened. And joining me is Dr. Leslie Dobson, clinical forensic psychologist at drlesleydobson.com. Her most recent book, The Friend Cleanse, How to Set Boundaries with Energy Vampires. Dr. Leslie, thank you for being with us. Dr. Leslie, I got a question for you. It seems as if many people, they may not come out and say it,

but they blame the victim for wearing a jogging bra. And then the victim ends up dead. It's somehow connected to the jogging bra or wearing ear pods. Oh, it's her fault. I would never do that. Or going to a restaurant or a bar by herself at 10 o'clock at night. What was she doing out at that time? I mean, we find a million reasons to somehow very insidiously suggest it's her fault. Why is it her fault this time? Because she and her bearded dragon were crossing the country.

There. She did it. It's her fault. That would never happen to me. I wouldn't do that. Well, I did do that. But why is it we so desperately look for reasons to blame the victim? I think a lot of us don't understand the mind of the perpetrator.

And so it's so easy to blame the victim. But really, she may have been followed. We have restraining orders. We have an ex-boyfriend fiance. To Justin Yentis, private investigator, who's working with the Grimm family. What is this about ex-boyfriends? There were some, some ex-boyfriends that she had, some serious relationships that didn't end well. So we've been in contact with some of those folks. Can't we all say that? Can't we all have a couple of exes we wish we had never met, but we did. So what are they, murder suspects?

I can for sure. I wouldn't say that anyone's really a murder suspect at this time. We're just, you know, our agency was brought on several months ago to put new eyes on this. And so we started looking at all of the areas with the attempt to not focus on what had already been done or what the obvious resolution or circumstances may have been. What can you tell me about the boyfriend? Not a whole lot at this point, unfortunately. Well, isn't it true that, from what I understand, I'll go to Zara Barker on this, Fox 5. Isn't it true that the ex was nowhere near where she was at the time she went missing? That's what we had heard as well. But again, we couldn't even get in touch with any of her friends or ex-boyfriends, especially anyone here locally in San Diego. And I think part of that is because she had actually moved to San

Diego Ocean Beach during the pandemic. So we don't know exactly how well connected she was with our local community here. Justin Yentez, private investigator working with the Grimm family. Are you or anyone in her family aware of a boyfriend and her new residence? Yes. Yes, we are. Okay. And isn't it true that that particular boyfriend was nowhere near where she was when she went missing. Yeah, that is the information that we currently have. That's correct. She's on a road trip.

She's crossing the country. He's not following behind her. And I think, let me just go out on a limb here, that he has been excluded. He was nowhere near her at the time she goes missing. So where does that leave me? Joining me is Andrew Stoltman, a high profile lawyer out of Chicago, a law professor at Northwestern University and co-author of an incredible book, Waging War on Wall Street. My battle suing banks and brokerage firms. Well, if you can take on a bank, okay, I need to talk to you off camera.

Andrew Stoltman, let me talk to you about this case. When I immediately ask about the boyfriend, that's synonymous with every boyfriend, ex, ex-husband, in every case ever. Because isn't it true that when someone goes missing or is harmed or killed, the first place you look is within the family, the nuclear family, and then you start moving out, including exes, longtime exes, all the way back as far as you can go because random crimes don't happen as often as targeted crimes. In other words, by someone that knows you or think they know you. Nancy, you and I know that, but it's amazing how many times the boyfriend or the girlfriend who perpetrated the crime doesn't know that.

That is always the first person that the police look at. And I think that might be one of the flaws in this case. And I think that might be one of the reasons why the police haven't solved this case yet. They've said from the very beginning that they don't think this case involves foul play, and that might be a little bit of a rush to judgment. And my concern is the police have that perception that no foul play was at issue, and their entire investigation has therefore been seen through that straw of no foul play. That might be a mistake. It might be a rush to judgment by the police. From a motel in Seligman, Arizona, Chelsea calls her parents and tells them she can't make it to Connecticut on time for the wedding. The trip is taking too long. She tells them she's going to camp out nearby for a couple of days and then head back home to San Diego.

The next day, September 28, Chelsea Grimm leaves the motel and heads 40 miles east to a war memorial cemetery in Williams, Arizona. Williams' police are alerted to a suspicious vehicle, and when the officer checks, he finds Chelsea Grimm seated in her car, crying. She tells the officer she gets emotional taking photos for a lost soldier project and didn't want to drive while crying. The officer spends nearly nine minutes with Grimm and asks if she has a hotel room for the night. She says she is going to camp, and the officer directs her to not camp in the city, but she can sleep at love's truck stop nearby he tells her she won't be bothered there straight back out to high profile

lawyer and adjunct law professor northwestern university andrew stoltman i believe i heard you use my old co-anchor johnny cochran's phrase, and of course, that's making me mad right there, but I believe you said there was a little bit of a rush to judgment. She was reported missing in October. That's not a rush. In fact, I feel like this panel, Mark, Andrew, Dr. Leslie, Justin, and Zara are the only ones that seem to feel any sense of urgency, along with their parents. Why hasn't the Coconino County Sheriff's issued a warrant, a search warrant, for AT&T to hand over the cell phone pings? This isn't a rush to judgment. Yes, they were wrong at the get-go saying there was no foul play.

There is foul play. Something has happened to this girl. What rush to judgment are you talking about? Well, I think the perception was no crime was committed, but Nancy, there were two shredded tires on her vehicle. Now, I've had a lot of flat tires over the years, but I've never had two at the same time. So this is a rural county with presumably rural police officers. How competent are they? How good are they? We don't know, but it sure seems like a rush to me. Well, hold on just a moment. Another thing, Andrew Stoltman, you may be a professor there at Northwestern University,

but I am from rural Georgia in the middle of nothing but pine trees and soybean fields. And I can tell you those sheriffs and cops are some of the most dedicated people I've ever seen. However, I do agree with you in the fact that they don't handle a lot of homicides or kidnaps. So their perception may be different from big city law enforcement that handles it every day. And you said something that really sticks in my mind. Mark Klass joining me. He has dedicated his life to helping find missing people, help solve unsolved homicides after his daughter Polly was kidnapped and murdered. Mark, did you hear when Andrew Stoltman said shredded? I don't

know if he meant to say it, but he's right. Shredded. It's not like you get a nail or a piece of glass in your tire and you have a slow leak or you have a flat. Two tires shredded. Shredded. What does that mean to you, Mark? Well, I'll tell you what everything means to me is that it looks to me like there's been an incompetent investigation. And if I were the young woman's parents, the first thing I would do, and I would do this immediately today, this moment, is contact the FBI and ask them to get involved. Incite all of the things that we've been talking about, all of the reasons that this has not been handled well,

all of the reasons that this is a critical moment for this young lady, and try to really get down to the bottom of it and get answers. That's exactly what I did in Pauly's case. I contacted the FBI because I thought they have the resources, they have the knowledge, they have the manpower, they can move forward with this investigation in a way that locals cannot do. Plus, they have the resources. So that is exactly where I would go with this right now. It just seems to me there are way too many red flags and way too many unanswered questions seven months down the line. You know, Andrew Stoltman joining

us, high profile lawyer out of Chicago, professor at Northwestern University and author. Andrew, I don't like the feds and I was a fed for three years, but I can tell you this, the FBI, they know what they're doing. The U.S. Marshal Service. Yeah, I've got nothing on them. You see the FBI picket through your trash in the backyard. You might as well go ahead and plead guilty. He's right. Why not call in the FBI? She's clearly crossed state boundaries. Not that we really need that, but why not? I don't know the answer to that. Sometimes there's a jurisdictional war between local police officers in a rural county like boundaries. Not that we really need that, but why not? I don't know the answer to that. Sometimes there's a jurisdictional war between local police officers in a rural county like this and the FBI.

And look, Nancy, I'm from Wisconsin, so I'm from a rural state, but I just don't think these police officers have much experience in this area with respect to potentially a murder investigation or potential missing person investigation. I think they are in over their heads. Two days after talking to the police officer in Williams, Arizona, Chelsea Grimm finds herself 19 miles west of Williams in the town of Ash Fork, Arizona. She has been camping out in her Ford Focus SUV. A local woodcutter sees Grimm and says she does not seem in distress or in need of any help. It's September 30th. The woodcutter sees Grimm and says she does not seem in distress or in need of any help. It's September 30th. The woodcutter in Ash Fork, Arizona is the last person to see Chelsea Grimm. Chelsea Grimm tells her parents she might not have good cell service while she's out camping, but when they

don't hear from her for several days, her parents report her missing on October 4th. The next day, Chelsea Grimm's 2019 white Ford Focus SUV is found abandoned on the side of the road with two flat tires by hunters in the middle of Forest Service Road 6 in the Kaibud National Forest northeast of Ash Fork, Arizona. Inside the locked vehicle, all of Chelsea Grimm's personal belongings, such as her wallet, driver's license, clothes and sleeping bag and her bearded dragon bras are gone. Police say there's no evidence of foul play. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Justin Yentes joining us, a respected private investigator working with the Grimm family. You were responding to Andrew, correct? What were you saying?

I was. I was. There was some discussion about the FBI. And when we first got this case, I started going through the original information that had come in from tips and leads from the folks out there that had seen this issue on the news. There were some ransom texts and messages that had seen this issue on the news, there were some ransom texts and messages that had come in. And that's what I felt was our best chance of establishing probable cause to get the FBI involved, to get some federal court orders or search warrants or whatever it would take to go after AT&T to get their cell phone the cell tower data when the FBI so I'll back up there Coconino excuse me so I wrote us a search warrant affidavit for

that using the the ransom and the kidnapping as my crime presented that to Coconino and then found out that they had had a conversation with the FBI previously, and they had reviewed the ransom requests that had come in and determined based on their training and experience that these ransom requests were bogus. So they did not feel that they were of value or indicative of a crime occurring. That information then went back to Coconino, and so the Sheriff's Office felt that when disclosing

the fact that the FBI had made a determination on the validity or lack thereof of these ransom requests, that that would have to be turned over to a judge in an affidavit and that we did not, based on the FBI's findings, we did not have probable cause to seek search warrants based on a kidnapping belief or suspicion. I've got a question for you. Tell me about the ransom notes. There were a couple of messages that came in, I believe on Facebook or WhatsApp, to one of the tip lines and demanded money. And that's about what I know about them. They were sent off to the FBI. We are not in possession of any reports from the FBI.

Well, what did the ransom request say? Something along the lines of requesting money for her safe return. So asking for money for her safe return. And that was directed to just basically a tip line or an online forum? It came in on one of our sources via, I believe, a Facebook message or a WhatsApp message. Was there anything in the ransom request to indicate special knowledge about Chelsea, like where she was, the name of her bearded dragon, something that only the kidnapper would know? There wasn't. And perhaps that was part of

the determination that the FBI made to invalidate the request. Getting information out of an ongoing investigation from the feds is next to impossible. To Zara Barker joining us, investigative reporter Fox 5 San Diego. So Chelsea tells her parents she may not have good cell service while she's camping. They don't hear from her for several days. And her parents report her missing October 4. I want to get back to the shredded tires. If anyone can tell me about the shredded tires. I want to hear about that because that sounds intentional, like they were cut with a knife. Yeah, it definitely does. And one thing I want to point out too is obviously those tires were flat or shredded, whatever the case was, that vehicle was not drivable. So at that time she had no choice but to leave that car. What we don't know

is where did she go? And did she go with somebody? I mean, Ash Fork, Arizona, where her vehicle was found, was not a very populated area. There's less than 500 people that live in Ash Fork, Arizona. You would seem to think at this time that they all know who Chelsea Grimm is and have been keeping an eye out for her. Somebody there has to know something because she left her vehicle on her own volition. I'm curious about the shredded tires. To me, that suggests that it was done on purpose, not that she just ran over a knife, excuse me, ran over a nail or a piece of glass. And as Andrew Stoltman pointed out, not one, but two of them, the car

left basically undriveable. But we do know this. Two days after talking to the police officer in Williams, Arizona, she's 19 miles west in Ashford, Arizona, camping in her Ford SUV. A local woodcutter sees Chelsea and speaks to her. Question, to you, Zara, what does she say to the timber guy? That conversation has not been made public yet, and we're not even sure exactly what police have released from that. So Coconino County are the ones who are investigating that part of this situation. And that conversation has not been made public yet to our knowledge. What do we know about it, Justin Yentes? Well, I want to be cautious in what information I do put out there right now. There are a lot

of folks that have been working on this case from around the country, both as a part of our team and also an army of volunteer investigators that are providing tips. And I'm somewhat hesitant to put out information that hasn't been already disclosed to the community. I'm trying to help find Chelsea. Did she reveal anything in the conversation that would be of any help? Not that I've been made aware of, but I will provide that with a caveat that we do have several investigative teams working on this matter, and the direct interviews have been handled by some other folks that are in our network. The area where Chelsea Grimm's locked SUV is found is an area popular with hunters and loggers. An extensive search was conducted of a three-mile radius around where

her car was discovered. Her family believes that due to the intensity of the search, if Chelsea was in the area, she would have been found. Hunters and loggers in the area also strongly believe she is not in the area. Chelsea Grimm's family hires a private investigator, Kelly Townsend, to help with the case. Guys, we have an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but I'd like to point out that another young woman, beautiful young woman, Shana Fineman, also goes missing very close to where Chelsea goes missing. Now, why is that? Two young women in the same general area, the similarities between the two cases are amazing. Two women missing in the Arizona area, both nature lovers, both seemingly disappear, leaving their vehicle behind, leaving their pets, one leaving their pet behind.

I'm just trying to figure out what, if any, is the connection between Shana Fineman and Chelsea Grimm. Chelsea's locked SUV found in a very popular area, an area popular for hunters. Shana goes missing in a very wooded and rural area as well. Why? And have authorities thought of linking the two? Andrew Stoltman joining us, high profile lawyer out of Chicago. What do you make of it, Andrew? That's outrageous.

That's a data point that I wasn't aware of. I think these police need to speak to all 500 people in this rural community and operate off the assumption that there's a pattern, that there might be, there might be a serial killer. There might be somebody out there who has abducted both of these women. And when they rush to judgment and they say, gee, we don't think it's foul play, they should be talking to all 500 of these people that are anywhere near this car to get to the bottom to see if we have a serial killer or a pattern with respect to these two disappearances. Mark Klass, jump in. What do you believe that the parents of Chelsea need to be doing right now. Listen, I agree with what Andrew said 100%. There is nothing but unanswered questions here. What's going on with the tires?

The police aren't saying anything. Was the woodcutter investigated? He was the last person that saw her. We know nothing about that. It's just like everything went down into a rat hole. I think the parents need to get over their shyness and contact the FBI and demand that they get involved because it totally seems like this investigation is in the hands of incompetence. Otherwise, the sheriff would

be on this program right now explaining himself. And I just don't see him here. Yeah. Isn't that unusual? Because typically, LE law enforcement come on the air with us to help publicize and garner attention from missing people. That's not happening here. Why? As far as the parents go, what do you believe they need to be doing, Mark Klaus, because you're the gold standard? Well, they have to be proactive. I mean, it's their daughter. She needs them now more than she's ever needed them before. And to just say, well, I'm too shy. I can't do this. I can't do that. You have to do it. You have to find the strength. You have to go before the cameras. You have to contact the FBI and demand that they get involved in a case that's gone absolutely nowhere in seven months, because without that advocacy, they might never have

the answers that they so desperately seek. If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Chelsea Grimm, call 928-774-4523. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.