Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Pam Smart: Another Chance at Freedom?

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

Appeals exhausted, Pamela Smart files a petition to compel the governor and Executive Council to reconsider giving her a commutation hearing. This too,  fails. The  state Supreme Court unanimously dismissed the petition for lack of jurisdiction. Smart was convicted of conspiracy to murder in the June 1, 1990, shooting death of her 24-year-old husband in their Derry condominium. The then teen trigger-man and accomplices who killed Pamela Smart's husband have been released from jail, but she, the mastermind, will remain locked up.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kathleen Murphy - Family Attorney (North Carolina), www.ncdomesticlaw.com, Twitter: @RalDivorceLaw, Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, www.carynstark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark" Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida www.pathcaremed.com, Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine. Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference Chris Byers - Former Police Chief Johns Creek Georgia, 25 years as Police Officer, Private Investigator and Polygraph Examiner,  www.chrisbyersinvestigationsandpolygraph.com  Jax Miller - News writer for Oxygen.com, True Crime Author, Author: "Hell in The Heartland: Murder, Meth, and The Case of Two Missing Girls", Facebook: "RealJaxMiller", Twitter/Instagram: @RealJaxMiller, Dr. Daniel Bober, Forensic Psychiatrist  Dave Mack - Crime Online Investigative Reporter    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Wow. Murder, sex, love, illicit relationships. This story has it all, but sadly, it's not a story. It's real. The case of Pamela Smart. How can we ever forget Pamela Smart? Pam Smart was a 22-year-old high school media coordinator

when she started, as they call it, a fair, I call it statutory rape, with a teen boy, just 15 at the time, who later shot and killed Smart's husband, Gregory Smart. In the last days, Pamela Smart goes to court demanding that her sentence be reduced. Needless to say, let me give you the spoiler alert on that. The court could see straight through Pamela Smart's claim. And this time, unlike so many other times, she wasn't wearing see-through lingerie. This woman needs to be behind bars, and that's where she must stay. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Yes, the court heard Pam Smart's lawyers drone on and on. Having exhausted her judicial appeal options, Smart returned for a third time to an elected state council seeking a sentence reduction. The five-member executive council rejected her latest request in less than three minutes, prompting another appeal to the state Supreme Court. The justices have just dismissed Pamela Smart's petition, claiming it would violate separation of powers,

the separation of powers of courts between the courts and the government. That would be the executive branch and the judicial branch. As we all know, there are three branches of government. One is executive. That would be like government officials, such as the president or this council. The second would be the judicial branch, which of course includes judges. The third branch is the elective branch, and that would be Congress, House of Representatives, as well as those same counterparts at state level. So the court's ruling after yet another appeal by Pamela Smart is that to grant her most recent appeal would be violative of the separation of powers. Why did they say that? Because her last appeal went to an executive branch council.

All the legal mumbo-jumbo aside, how in the hay are we back in court with Pamela Smart? Where did the whole thing start? Let's start at the beginning. I went into the garage and I went up to the house and I noticed that the outside lights weren't on and I remember thinking that that was odd because Greg usually left them on when he knew that I was going to be late but you know I didn't think it was anything major. I just remember thinking it was odd. I walked up the steps and I put the key in the door. And when I pushed the door open, I turned on the light and I saw Greg.

What did you do? Well, it all happened in a matter of, like, not even a second, I don't think. And I remember seeing things near him, like a candlestick and a pillow. And I remember I thought, the first thing I thought was to go get help. And I said, I said Greg, Greg's name. And he didn't, he didn didn't answer and I ran out. It all happened really fast. 18-year-old Pam Wojcic was a freshman in college who loved to party and she was instantly drawn to Greg Smart.

She sat next to him down on the couch and started flirting with him and twirling his hair. With his rocker haircut and boyish smile, 20-year-old Greg was just Pam's type. Greg was a great guy. If somebody said, hey, let's go away for the weekend and it was Friday night, he would go. He always lived like that. Greg was also known as a ladies' man. Greg was seen, as usual, a bunch of other girls. A lot of the girls seemed to flock to him. But soon Greg met Pam he began to change his ways and settle down over time it slowly got you know more serious and more and more serious Pam

was very excited about her relationship with Greg she used to write poems and she sent me a lot of them when greg surprised pam with an engagement ring in january of 1988 she accepted and that is how it all started at a party when she was just 18 years old how did it all end in murder joining me an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again dr daniel bober forensic psychiatrist, joining us. All the way from Rome, Dr. Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, and anchor at AshleyWilcott.com.

Right now to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, explain to me, when Pamela Smart gets home, what does she find in her home? She finds her husband of less than one year on the ground and the apartment apparently in disarray. He's on the ground with what appears to be a gunshot wound to the head. Police suddenly have three suspects in the murder. 17-year-old J.R. Latimer and his friends, 16-year-old Pete Randall and 16-year-old Billy Flynn. They're kind of a rough group of kids. They had been involved in some minor crimes. But petty crime is one thing.

Could they really have committed a murder? It doesn't take long for detectives to identify a possible link between the three boys and Greg Smart. His wife, Pam. The teenagers are students at Winnicott High School, where Pamela Smart works. Two of the boys are students at Winnicott High School where Pamela Smart works. Two of the boys are students in her media course. They were making a video together.

Pam Smart was the coordinator. The kids are the talent. Two of the high school students are in her class. That's a connection. You're hearing our friends at Real Crime, Real Story with Erin Brockovich. So they're all kids. They're all teens. And Flynn, the 16-year-old, reportedly was more than just a student. She sat me down in a chair. And what did she say to you?

She said, I think I'm in love with Bill. And what did you say to that? I laughed. It was ridiculous. It was ridiculous. Why was it ridiculous? Because she was married. It was ridiculous. It was ridiculous. Why was it ridiculous? Because she was married. She was 22. And what did she do when you laughed?

She just kept telling me over and over again. I'm serious. So what happened after that? I bought a week later, she told Bill. Did you have any heart to talking to Bill about this? I told Bill Pam wanted to see him. And when you say about a week later, she told Bill, how do you know it was a week later? I'm not positive. That's when she told me that she told him about a week later. You are hearing who I believe to be the star witness in the case,

Cecilia Pierce. Now, Pam Smart, the teacher in her 20s, takes this teen girl under her wing, so to speak. But then... When she said she could either divorce or kill Greg, do you think she was serious? I thought that she was serious, but that she wouldn't do it or have it done and how much how often were you having these conversations with the defendant at this time

at first it was just like every few days and then it was every day and what kind of things would you be talking about It was just like every few days, and then it was every day. And what kind of things would you be talking about? What was going on so far, like what they had discussed last period, what her and Bill had discussed and what they had decided upon. Things like to wear their hair tied back and to wear dark clothes and to make it look like a burglary. Wow, that's getting very, very involved. An intricate planning going so far as to what they would wear,

what to do with their hair, when the incident, the murder would take place. To Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, what really links Pamela Smart to her husband greg's murder well actually uh the police with cecilia pierce they actually wired her up she agreed to help the police because she just couldn't stand this anymore and actually pam smart gave her own incriminating statement they picked it up on the wire um where actually said, if you tell the police what you know, we're all going to be locked in the slammer. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

For those of you just joining us, I guess we've all heard of the movie To Die For starring the awesome Nicole Kidman as Pamela Smart, who started a, quote, love affair, a.k.a. statutory rape with a teen boy student who she convinces to murder her husband. In the last days, Pamela Smart's most recent and latest bid for sentence reduction has been thrown out. Why? The state attorney general's office, of course, has opposed the commutation of her sentence from the start. She's not getting out early because she has never

accepted full responsibility or basically any responsibility for the murder. So when you go before an appeals court or a parole hearing, one of the things they look for is, did you admit what happened? Do you regret it? Is there remorse? Do you take responsibility in order to ensure that once you do get out, you won't do it again? Well, Pamela Smart has yet to accept responsibility for the murder of her husband. She still blames the whole thing on others. Yes, she's earned two master's degree. Yes, she's earned two master's degrees behind bars. Yes, she has tutored fellow inmates. Yes, she has been ordained a minister and is part of an inmate liaison committee.

In her latest petition, she says she's sorry and she's fully rehabilitated. But according to authorities, she has never accepted responsibility. Take a listen to our friends at WMUR 9. Smart was asking the executive counsel for a hearing where she could petition for the possibility of parole. Counselor Andrew Walensky was concerned about her lack of responsibility for what happened. If she's unable to come to terms with that, that creates concerns for me. Okay, wait a minute. Come to terms with murder? Okay, we're hearing all of this, but how did it all start?

How are we at this point today take a listen to our clip three our friends at investigation discovery pam dreamed of a career in television she was struggling to try to find a job as a reporter which is what she really wanted to do instead she landed a job as the media services director for the local school district where her responsibilities included making educational videos. One of the projects that she had decided to do was some kind of a documentary which would involve some of the kids in the surrounding high school, and that was going to be about

self-esteem. She worked closely with student volunteers, including 15-year-old Cecilia Pierce. Cecilia Pierce was Pamela Smart's student intern, and she became a really close friend and confidant, which was a little bit unusual. Long-haired sophomore Billy Flynn was another volunteer. He is an aspiring rock musician. He plays electric guitar, and he's got long hair. He is exactly what her husband, Greg, used to be. I want to go to a special guest joining us today from Oxygen.com, true crime author, Hell in the Heartland. Whoa, murder and meth in the case of two missing girls. I'm on it. Jax Miller, thanks for being with us. Tell me about Pam Smart and husband Greg Smart's relationship.

And it's kind of freaky that she then takes a liking to a boy, a teen boy in her class at school that's just like Greg, except a newer model. I'm going to call in a shrink on that, but tell me, Jack Smiller, who is Pam Smart? How did she grow up? Where is this place, Derry, New Hampshire? And who is Greg Smart? Well, it's funny that you use the word storybook before because Derry, New Hampshire is that storybook setting. It's that fall foliage in New England. It's the church people's poking out. It's a town of like 34,000. Wait, hey, you know what you just made me think of? Sure. You know those calendars that have, Jackie's shaking her head, yes, there's calendars.

And it's of nature and outdoors. And they'll have this beautiful fall foliage picture. And then they'll have a spire poking up with a cross on the top of Church Spire in the middle of it. It's just gorgeous. That's what you made me think of, Jack. That's exactly what it was. And, you know, it's really nice because it's only like 45 minutes away from Boston. So it's a nice alternative for people who don't want the hustle bustle of the city.

But it's just like that storybook setting, what you see on TV. It's that perfect New England image. In fact, Robert Frost was from there i believe really yeah yeah it's a really how big of a town is dairy new hampshire so it's uh it's about 34 000 people and it's right in between manchester and salem and like i said it's it's not the big city but it's close enough to the big city um it's really just like the perfect all-american town and um yeah that's where that's where greg and pam were and they had this this rock and roll marriage it was it was kind of perfect in a way and i say that as a metalhead myself of course but it was that perfect head

banging you know rock and roll they had a dog named halen you know very very rock and roll but it seemed very loving on the outside okay hold on I'm just drinking out of the fire hydrant here. It's just too much, too fast. I'm sorry. Okay. The quote, perfect, headbanger, rock and roll marriage. You know, I hadn't really thought about it like that. Let me go to you first, Karen Stark, New York psychologist joining us in Manhattan today. Karen, I, first of

all, I don't think I've ever seen anyone that reminds me of my husband in his youth, but that's kind of freaky. It's like thinking, considering replacing your husband with a younger version of your husband? What does that mean? You know, it makes me think of Nancy, not a younger David, but somebody who isn't committed to the relationship, is not really capable of attaching, having commitment. And when we think about young aversion, we're not talking about somebody who's a few years younger. We're talking about a minor, which is totally unacceptable. That's like pedophilia. Well, you know, if you all weren't awake before, you hear pedophilia, you're awake now. Kathleen Murphy, just to put it euphemistically

you have seen your share of divorce cases have you ever of course we always hear of men no offense men marrying a younger woman don't usually hear of women marrying a younger guy dumping their husbands for a younger guy but i guess it does does happen. But long story short, Kathleen Murphy, in all the divorces you've seen, have you seen a woman replace her husband for a younger version of the husband? Are you asking me if I've seen a woman replace their husband for a child? Never, because that's exactly what Pam Smith did.

I'm asking you, have you seen a woman replace her husband with a younger version? I don't mean just a younger guy. I mean somebody that looks, talks, acts, walks like the husband, but younger. That's pretty rare. I don't see that a lot. I see them going to the opposite. Everybody, Jax joining us from Oxygen.com.

Jax, what exactly was her position at the high school? So Pam worked at Winnicott High School where she was a media director. She did have high school interns working with her, including Cecilia Pierce. And yeah, she was a media director. She was an employee. She was about 22 years old and that's where she met Billy Flint. Now, what does media director be? Because I understand she went off on a tangent making some type of a documentary with the students. Is that correct? Yeah, she made a documentary about self-esteem. I think she was

trying to improve self-esteem with her students, which is kind of ironic given the whole situation. But that's what she did. She would make these videos and involve the students. Very first high-profile cases, it involved a sex affair, as they call it. Again, I can't say enough. It's statutory rape between a school staff member and a student. Then Joyce Maynard wrote to die for, drawing from the smart case.

Then that inspired a film, same name, to die for, starring Nicole Kidman and Joaquin Phoenix. Okay. The killer, William Flynn, and three other teens, cooperated with prosecutors, struck a deal, and they served shorter sentences. They have already been released. Now, most recently, several smart supporters traveled to New Hampshire to hear the court discuss the case. They all wore pink T-shirts with the words, enough is enough on them.

You know what would really help? If they could talk her into accepting responsibility. Tell me, Dave Mack, what happens at trial with all the other co-conspirators, the boyfriend, his friends? The prosecution cut deals with just about everybody except Pam Smart. At trial, Billy Flynn testified, as did Patrick Randall, J.R. Latimer. They all testified as to their specific roles in this crime, and they all had deals negotiated with the prosecution. Because ultimately, the prosecution determined early on, if not for Pam Smart orchestrating all of this it would not have happened she's even admitted as much that it was her relationship with billy that cost greg his life it's just a matter of what the police have indicated they they built their case around is

that uh she was the instigator of everything and at trial billy flim was a an incredibly credible witness uh he cried on the stand. And I'll never forget actually seeing him when the prosecutor said, what was all that? What did you say? And he said, right before I shot him, I pointed the gun at his head and I said, God, please forgive me. And it pulled the trigger. So Billy Flynn admits to what happened. Take a listen. The man who spent decades in prison for his role in the sex and murder scandal that rocked it in the hampshire community is now a free man all of this unfolding in the overnight hours billy flynn was just 16

years old when he and a friend killed his high school teacher's husband he was granted parole in March a rather bizarre scene overnight at the prison where Flynn spent the last 25 years of his life. What you heard was other inmates cheering as the convicted killer left by the back door. At his parole hearing, Flynn apologized to the family of Greg Smart. He says he hopes to find a job after earning his degree while in prison, but he knows that will be difficult. Dave Mack, Billy Finn leaves prison. He's the trigger person. He admitted to what he did. What did the co-conspirator do? What was his part? What did the others do? Not Pam Smart. Patrick Randall was sentenced to the same thing

as Billy Flynn. He was right there inside the home with Billy Flynn when it took place, when the shooting occurred. And he got the same type of treatment that Billy Flynn got. Now, they did have a co-conspirator who was the getaway driver. His name was Vance Latimer. He was sentenced to life in prison as an accomplice, and he was let out of jail several years ago. He wasn't sentenced to the same thing they did have one other co-conspirator that was raymond fowler he actually just waited in the car okay he was there with him again two boys went inside billy and patrick vance and raymond stayed in the car but they were all part of this conspiracy um raymond fowler was charged

with conspiracy and attempted burglary and and he was sentenced to prison as well. But he was also released back many years ago. So while we hear the boyfriend, as we call him, admitting that he said, God forgive me, and then pulls the trigger, he admits that. What about Pam Smart, Dave Mack? Has she ever admitted she was part of the conspiracy to kill her husband? No. You know, the only thing she's even come close to admitting in terms of guilt is she actually, and this is a real problem, she's never admitted her role. She's never admitted what they proved in this is a direct quote although i never wanted

nor asked mr flynn to murder greg i will forever carry the blame and guilt and that's the one statement from her that has a you know where she claims that yeah she's guilty but not for asking him to do it she's guilty because she had a relationship with Billy Flynn. As a matter of fact, listen to Pam Smart. When the media counts, and day after day after day, it was just this onslaught of negativity and just untruths about me and tearing me apart. I think that almost as a defense mechanism, I shut down. And I believe part of that is because I come from a family where we learn to deal with whatever problems happen by just remaining strong and standing strong and not being like weak and willow so to speak over whatever happens I'm more of a private person when I deal with my own pain and my own emotions. So for me to be only 22 years old, it tends to be 24 at times. And have what I thought was my whole future with him just completely obliterated. And having to deal at such a young age with funeral and weights and then the fact that their son was arrested and I had

a relationship with her and then finding out that it looked like he did it or his friends did it and then I was arrested. It was just like one thing after another after another and I think part of my being able to survive was me being able to just completely shut down. Okay, so it's all about her. To Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, joining us. Even now, it's still all about how this affected her life, how her future was, quote, obliterated. Not once do you hear her talk about the victim, Greg.

Of course, Nancy, because she's a malignant narcissist. All she cares about is herself, her fame, her recognition. That's what it was about all the time, and that's what it's about now. Okay, it's not just that. Listen to this. Pam Smart in her own words. You could not deface her anything but with me. So what the jury was doing was reading a transcript

that someone, we still don't even know who, had transcribed from their listening to the tape. And as I was listening to it and could hear pieces of it and I was reading the commentations flat on the page, I was noticing that there were things that were attributed to me that were actually her talking. There were things that were attributed to her and it was actually me talking. Because our voices sounded similar only because they were so warbled. And also what happened too is that when you have a conversation, even like the one I'm having with you right now, you're interjecting in my conversation saying, right, yes, uh-huh.

That's what we do when we have conversations. Right. But flat on the paper, it's like she's saying, oh, so you wanted Greg dead. And then I say, yeah. But that's not how the conversation was going. It wasn't a response to necessarily whatever you just said. I don't think I would even say, yeah, okay, if someone mentioned, I want my husband dead, which, of course, I don't. Not until I renew that life insurance policy.

But aside from that, what a bunch of BS. All this time later, she's still attacking the transcript. And so you know what that means. That means that that is what convicted her. That's what she's angry about. To Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, all this time later, she's still talking about the transcripts of the taped conversation she was having with Cecilia Pierce about how it was wrong. Does she not remember? The jury heard it for themselves. They were reading it. And not only

that, Cecilia Pierce testified and said what they talked about and what happened. Then the tapes came into evidence. So what does that mean, Dr. Bober? She's still festering over the tapes, and she's still not admitting that she orchestrated her husband's murder. Well, I think, you know, I think she feels obviously betrayed. But you know, it's sort of one of those whataboutisms like, well, yeah, you're saying I did this, but what about this? This is what this person did to me. So, again, it's all about her. And that's the focus. All about her. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Pam Smart supporters say, and I quote, Pamela is like an icon in a sense, meaning she has life with no parole, and when things are tough, you remember Pamela. Okay, that was said by supporter Santiago, who was also behind bars and did time with Pamela Smart, her name Vanessa Santiago. But I don't go along with that. When times are tough for me, I don't remember Pamela Smart. I think of my mom and dad who kept going when times were really tough for us. I think of Christ. I think of other people throughout history that have persevered, although they were faced with seemingly insurmountable obstacles, but I certainly don't think of Pamela Smart when I

try to find strength to persevere. Take a listen to our friends at Real Crime Investigation Discovery. Less than 48 hours after finding her husband murdered, Pam phones local TV crime reporter Bill Spencer. Pamela Smart calls me and asks me to interview her, which completely just blows me away and everybody else. When Spencer arrives for the interview, he's stunned by Pam's appearance. A little over 24 hours after a murder,

the wife doesn't greet you dressed to the teeth, makeup perfect, hair perfect. He's even more stunned by Pam's strange behavior. One year ago today, we were married right about this time. One of the first things that Pamela says is it's going to be our one-year wedding anniversary in a couple of days. How would it be if I go into the refrigerator

because I've got the top layer of our wedding cake and I could go pull that out. You could get some B-roll of me doing that. And wouldn't that make an emotional, poignant moment in your story? And I was like, holy cats, this girl is helping me produce the story. She's trying to produce the new story.

Jax Miller. I remember when my fiance, Keith, was murdered just before our wedding. And I remember I couldn't even think straight. I just wanted to go out into a forest and howl. I just, I couldn't even form sentences did you hear what the news producer just said within less than 48 hours after the murder pam smart's on the phone trying to do a lead story i wish you could see my face right now. My jaw is on the floor because I've never heard that before. This is the first time I'm hearing that and I'm having a total WTF moment

here. Like, what is that? What is going on? It's diabolical because she knows, oh gosh, I don't even have words. It's shocking. It's absolutely shocking. It is amazing. Karen Stark, jump in. Well, you know, I'm not the least bit surprised. Think about it, Nancy. She's describing how she feels about this guy. And she says, well, you know, but I'm married. She doesn't say he's 15. She says, well, I'm married. Her morals are correct. She doesn't know what she's talking about. And all she's thinking about now she's talking about and all she's thinking about now narcissistically is that she's going to be in front of a camera and let's get the best story we could possibly get i'm not surprised at all i'm not shocked by this it's all about

drama she's young in her head and she's not thinking about the loss of her husband, obviously. Not at all. Well, it goes quickly from high school whisperings in the hall about a sex affair with a teacher to ballistics. Listen. Local parent, 45-year-old Vance Latime, claims he has information about a murder. He's very concerned because he thinks his son may be involved in a homicide. Latime says that his 17-year-old son, J.R., and two of his friends have been talking about committing a murder. Mr. Latimer gets to find out that the gun that was supposed to be used was a.38.

He owns a.38. He goes and checks to see whether his gun is in fact still where he thought it was supposed to be. Well, he opens his dresser. He takes a look at this firearm. He says, well, wait a second. I didn't clean this. Why is it clean now? The gun is sent out for ballistics testing. When the results come back, police are astonished.

The single bullet that killed Greg Smart was fired from Latamie's gun. Straight out to Chris Byers, former police chief, now PI and polygrapher. Chris Byers, I think that a lot of people don't get, and they shouldn't. They're civilians. Why should they know this? That a ballistics match is just as positive as a fingerprint a human fingerprint explain yeah every every firearm is different uh the barrel has has grooves uh and spiraling in it and when the the projectile leaves the muzzle of that firearm it leaves an

imprint that matches only to that firearm so like you say it's just like the human fingerprint there's only one of those that are going to match up and so it's easy when you have that projectile to come back find that firearm shoot some rounds through it and compare it and know that that is the firearm, that that was fired from. I always wished I had a video to show Gerards when guns are actually made. They're made of boiling hot lead. And when the barrel cools down, there are drippings and irregularities on the inside of the barrel, the inside of the barrel, and they harden and they can never be changed. So when a bullet hurtles down that barrel so fast, it leaves markings on the bullet, scars, scratches that no other gun can leave. So when you find the gun in question, you take a bullet and you go to the crime lab

and you fire it into a tub of water or a pillow. And then you take your known bullet that you just fired and the bullet from the body or the scene, you look at them under a microscope, and you can see the exact same squiggles or markings on the two bullets. That is how you do it. Right, Chris? Absolutely. That's exactly how it works. Well, amazingly, there was more evidence. Jax Miller, what do you think was the single most damning evidence at trial? Well, I think it was two things. I think it was Cecilia Pierce wearing a wire to get, you know, all the information that

Pam divulged to her. And I think it was Billy Flynn copping to a plea deal in exchange for his testimony. I think that those were the biggest factors. And what exactly was Billy Flynn, the teen boy lover? What was his testimony, Jax? So he really, he said everything. He was in this illicit relationship with Pam. She was telling him that Greg was abusive. She was afraid that if she tried to divorce him or leave him, that he would take the dog and take the money and take the furniture.

So that's why he did what he did. Phil Flynn was actually 15 at the time. Jax Miller, you hear Pam Smart's mother insisting that these photos that came into trial were innocent. They were taken for a modeling contest, But they came into evidence. Isn't it true the prosecution says these illicit photos taken by Pam Smith, by Pam Smart, were given to Bill Flynn, the teen boy? Yeah, you know, I know that there were the photos. I know that they had watched some sexually charged films together.

I mean, it was very clear that she was seducing this child, essentially. And yeah, that was one of the hugest factors in how she got this young boy to kill for her. I mean, she can say no, no, no, until she's blue in the face. But then when the jury sees the photo, she's sending this teen boy, there's really no question in their minds. She set out to seduce the boy. That's child molestation. And then what else would she do? That was the question for the jury.

It was no big surprise when Pam Smart was convicted. But what is a surprise is that even to this day, she refuses to accept responsibility. Well, Pamela Smart's bid for a commuted sentence has been rejected. But don't count Pamela Smart out. We ain't seen the last of Pamela Smart. Mark my words. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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