Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Parents of 'Baby-Faced Killer' Hiding on Canadian Border

Episode Date: December 6, 2021

Ethan Crumbley's parents have joined him in jail, just not in the same cell. The mother and father of the teen charged in the school shooting at Oxford High School have been charged involuntary manslaughter after taking no action when called to the school. A teacher saw a disturbing drawing made by the boy, and the parents were called in and told that Ethan Crumbley must get counseling with 48 hours. The school shooting happened shortly thereafter. Jennifer and James Crumbley pled not guilty to the charges. Police issued a "Be on the Lookout" for the parents when they failed to turn themselves in. They were arrested near the Canadian border.Joining Nancy Grace today: Spencer Coursen - Founder and President: Coursen Security Group www.CoursenSecurityGroup.com, Author: "The Safety Trap: A Security Expert’s Secrets For Staying Safe in a Dangerous World", www.TheSafetyTrap.com, Instagram: @s.coursen, Twitter: @SpencerCoursen Troy Slaten - Los Angeles Criminal Defense Attorney, Slaten Lawyers, APC, Twitter @TroySlaten  Dr. Jorey Krawczyn - Police Psychologist, Faculty Saint Leo University; Consultant Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S.  Bobby Chacon - 27 years former FBI Agent, BobbyChacon.com, Instagram/Twitter: @BobbyChaconFBI, Writer and Co-producer: Audible Original Series, "After the Fall"  Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida www.pathcaremed.com, Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine. Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Mommy and Daddy go on the run? Why? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, here's a hint at why mommy and daddy go on the run. Take a listen to our cut 29 from Fox. Be on the lookout. A bolo alert has been issued for James and Jennifer jennifer crumbly the parents of ethan

crumbly the accused oxford high school shooter now we did have our reporter confirmed through two police departments that a statewide bolo was issued for the crumblies just here on friday afternoon hours after they were charged with involuntary manslaughter in connection to the Oxford High School shootings. Now, a description of the vehicle or a last possibly known location was released. Anyone who sees the Crumblies, they are pictured here on your screen in that left-hand box. You're urged to call police. The Crumblies were charged just today with four counts of involuntary manslaughter. Four counts of involuntary manslaughter. Four counts of involuntary manslaughter.

Mommy and Daddy go on the run. Here's a little more information. Take a listen to Pierre Thomas, ABC. Student John Edwards describing the chaos to our affiliate WXYZ. Over the PA, we hear our principal, Mr. Wolf, shouting, Alice, lockdown, Alice, lockdown. And then we heard gunshots in the class. And so we locked down, turned the lights off. Our teacher got paper taped over the window on the door and got his two big tables and barricaded the door.

He's just scared. I was praying for, you know, my safety, my friend's safety, you know, everyone's safety. Edwards able to call his mother. I could hear the fear in his voice. And I told him, I said, baby, I'm on my way. I've never been so scared in my life. School officials left reeling. Of course, I'm shocked. It's devastating.

Really shocked and devastated. I'm sure that teacher was. But guess what? There were warning signs and lots of them. Not everyone should be so shocked. And that includes some school officials and mommy and daddy. Why did so many students have to die? I mean, young students. Can you imagine all the times my students, my children, your children, other students in school have practiced lockdowns and this teacher, I think a hero teacher, goes into lockdown mode, locking the door to the classroom, barricading the door to the classroom,

turning the lights off so the shooter can't see through into the classroom, putting paper up so the shooter can't see through and take pot shots at students hiding inside the classroom. Things we've learned from so many other school shootings. Take a listen and brace yourself. It's classroom video. Yes. Sheriff's office. Safety come out. Yeah, he said safety come out. I don't know. Now, we're not willing to take that risk right now. I can't hear you.

We're not taking that risk right now. Okay, well, come to the door and look at my bag, bro. Yeah, bro. He said bro. He said bro red flags Slow down, you're fine. I want you to drop that pack. You can hear the students hustling and rustling, trying to get out windows, trying to find a way out. You can hear a teacher saying, put down your bags, forget your bags, just get out windows, trying to find a way out. You can hear a teacher saying, put down your bags,

forget your bags, just get out. That's actual sound from the school shooting. And if you can let yourself, let your mind go there. Imagine your children in that situation, trying to put down their bags and get out a window, sneak out any way they can after they hear gunshots ringing out in the hall. Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Mommy and Daddy go on the run after their son does that. The baby face killer. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now.

Spencer Corson, founder, president, Corson Security Group, face killer with me an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now spencer course and founder president course and security group author of the safety trap a security expert secrets for staying safe in a dangerous world troy slayton high profile lawyer joining us out of la dr jory crawson psychologist faculty saint le University, and consultant, author of Operation SOS, Bobby Chacon. 27 years with the FBI at BobbyChacon.com. Dr. Tim Gallagher joining us, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida. You can find him at PathCareMed.com. But joining us right now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Alexis Tereschuk.

Alexis, your son is approaching the age of these students. Did you hear that mother saying she was telling her son, baby, I'm on the way, I'm on the way, I'm on the way, like she could do anything about it. I'm just overwhelmed at all the warning signs. And these victims are so young. Alexis, how old are the victims that lost their lives? These kids were so young. So there were four students so far that have died. Now, there are still kids that are in the hospital in critical condition. So right now we have four. Madison was 14. Juliana was 15. Kate was 17. And Justin was

17. None of these kids are even 18 years old yet. Two of them couldn't even drive yet. One of them just 14 years old. What exactly happened? Take a listen to our cut 10. The drama unfolded at Oxford High School outside Detroit. We're in lockdown right now. Teachers and students rushed to barricade the doors. Police disarmed the 15-year-old shooter within five minutes, but four students were killed and seven others wounded, including a teacher.

16-year-old Tate Meir died a hero trying to disarm the shooter. Everything about us is tough. Tate Meir was number 42 on the football team. Today, there's a petition to name the school stadium after him. Madison Baldwin was a bright 17-year-old senior. Amid the chaos after the shooting, her grandmother appealed for information on Facebook. Please help. My granddaughter Madison cannot be located. Please ask your children if they've seen her. Sadly, Madison was among those slain. Hannah St. Juliana is the youngest victim, just 14 years old. She was a talented volleyball player. Just thinking about this little girl, 14 years old, the age of my daughter, Lucy, and my son, John David. She's a volleyball player, just like my daughter. And I think Dr. Jory Cross and psychologists joining us,

Faculty St. Leo University, I think a lot of people think, oh, that's in a different state. That's in a different community. That would never happen in my community. It's happening everywhere. You can't disassociate yourself from what's happening at this school by saying, oh, that's somewhere other than where I live. Because you remember the whole thing started really or came into our consciousness at Columbine. And then there's been so many after that. Go ahead. You think we would learn, especially after Columbine, and there are certain protocols that have been put in place for counselors and psychologists to follow in dealing with students like this. And I see some of those that weren't followed.

Well, yeah, but from what I heard, a lot of those were being followed, but it can't save you from a school shooter from within the school. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the so-called baby face shooter, Ethan Crumley. Alexis Tereschuk, there were a lot of red flags. For instance, take a listen to our cut 14. This is Linda Schmidt, Fox 5. A lieutenant provided new details about the shooting. The school security video shows Ethan exit a bathroom in the hallway and

begin shooting at students. Students then barricading themselves in classrooms behind stacks of desks and chairs. Others racing out of school to safety. Officers say they have a journal written by Ethan Crumbly taken from his backpack where he expresses his desire to murder students as well as two videos recovered from crumbly cell phone. I did a video made by him the night before the incident um wherein he talked about shooting and killing students the next day at Oxford High School. The prosecutor saying the teenager planned the mass shooting. I am absolutely sure after reviewing the evidence that it isn't even a close call. It was absolutely premeditated.

The teenager and his parents had spoken with school officials that morning at the school about some concerning behavior in class. But authorities say there was no indication of a possible shooting. Concerning behavior in class? Alexis Tereschak, what concerning behavior in class. Alexis Tereshchuk, what concerning behavior in class? There were, a teacher saw that he had done a drawing, Ethan did a drawing, which showed a person being shot with a gun on it and blood everywhere. So he, you know, where students doodle who they love or who they, you know, were their favorite artists in class.

He was doing a doodling of a murder scene and it was talking on there about shooting it and it just said help me help me i don't i don't get it spencer corson uh why wasn't he taken out of class right then that minute yeah they did take him out of class and they talked to him and then they allowed him to go right back is my point take him out and keep him out. Right. This is the problem we see with schools time and time again, is that they're very good at identifying the pre-incident indicators of violence, but they don't know what to do next. When these students who do not have the emotional maturity to ask for help and act out in ways like these drawings, they're all but crying out for the attention of those to, you know, help them with their pain, with their suffering, with their trauma. Okay, wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop.

You're making my teeth hurt. Why are we talking about his pain? Yes, I want a student that's suffering emotionally to get help. Absolutely. But I'm talking about protecting all the other innocent students. Maybe if. What if we treated them 10 years ago? What if? There is no time for what ifs in these situations.

Of course, in a perfect world, you want someone treated the moment they began having a an emotional mental issue bobby chacon but when a teacher sees gun blood i want to kill my other students that's when he gets taken out pronto that's what i'm asking you yeah nancy i don't even see this as almost in pain it looks to me like he was reveling in and he was fantasizing about carrying this thing out. He wanted to do this. He was planning on doing it. And he had some and he had two parents who probably knew he was going to do it. And then they provided him the means to do it. So this is an egregious case. I'm sick about it, Bobby. I'm sick. And I know I'm preaching to the choir right here, right now, because

everybody on this panel has dealt with something similar to this. But Bobby Chacon, I mean, you were one of the feds, the FBI, that pulled the body parts of Samantha Koenig out of the water. Okay. You've seen this. She was a teen like this. My point is, yeah, I want everyone, not just teens, but everyone that has a mental or emotional crisis to be treated, of course, but that's a day late and a dollar short as far as I'm concerned right now. Guys, how in the hay did he get a gun? 15 years old. And listen to this. It's a Sig Sauer. Take a listen to our cut 17. James Crumbly purchased a Sig Sauer 9mm Model SP 2022 from Acme shooting goods in oxford michigan on november 26 2021. a store employee confirms that ethan crumbly was present with james at the time of the purchase per statute james crumbly completed atf form 309a, 53009A. On or about November 26, 21, Ethan Crumbly's social media posts reveal photos

of the semi-automatic handgun, along with the caption, just got my new beauty today, including emoji with hearts, Sig Sauer 9mm, any questions I will answer, end quote. Subsequent to the purchase of that weapon, one of Jennifer Crumbly's social media posts on about 11-27-21 read, quote, mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present, end quote. And they posted that. Explain that to me, Alexis Tereshuk. The mom, Jennifer Crumbly, she was put on her social media the day after the dad and Ethan went to purchase the gun. But she was spending the day with her son trying out his new Christmas present.

So they were going somewhere to practice firing the gun. These are not the only guns in the house. There are videos, news videos of police officers carrying armloads of weapons out of the home. They appear to be long barrel rifles. This is not the only firearm. Okay. So Alexis Tereshchuk, I understand how you feel about gun control. I also approve of certain gun controls myself.

I don't like guns. I'm a victim of gun violence. My fiance was murdered. I get it. But Troy Slayton, in this country, it's not a crime to keep guns in your home, especially when you have them being kept pursuant to the law, right? That's correct, Nancy. And Michigan does not have strong or really any child access prevention laws. So it was not illegal for the parents to keep guns in the house. And there was no requirement in their state to have those guns

locked in a gun safe or with trigger locks on them. So as much as we don't like the way the guns were kept, and I don't like a teen boy having access to a gun without parental supervision in any way. That's the law there and as of right now they can cart out a hundred long guns in that jurisdiction and it is not a crime. But I want you to take a listen to our cut 19. This is the Oakland County Prosecutor, Karen McDonnell. Listen. On November 30th, 21, the morning of the shooting, the next day, Ethan Crumbly's teacher came upon a note on Ethan's desk, which alarmed her to the point that she took a picture of it on her cell phone. The note contained the following.

A drawing of a semi-automatic handgun pointing at the words, quote, the thoughts won't stop, help me, end quote. In another section of the note was a drawing of a bullet with the following words above that bullet, quote, blood everywhere, end quote. Between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding. Below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji. Further down the drawing are the words, quote,

my life is useless, end quote. And to the right of that are the words, quote, the world is dead, end quote. Let me go to Dr. Tim Gallagher, joining us, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida at PathCareMed.com. He's a lecturer at University of Florida Med School in Forensic Medicine, the founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death

Investigation Conference. I could go on. Dr. Gallagher, thank you for being with us. Based on the wounds that we believe the children suffered, do you believe that they died instantly or did they lie there in pain hearing all of the chaos and the screams and the gunshots around them? Well, without knowing exactly where they were shot and what organs were destroyed in their bodies, I'd have to say that the most likely thing would be they they are young they are healthy they have no other diseases they don't have any diabetes or obesity or anything like that that they have very good resilience to a gunshot wound so my first impression would be that because they are healthy and they did receive a wound, that they would be able to resist succumbing immediately to it.

And so my impression would be that there was a lot of suffering going on before they finally succumbed to their wounds. Dr. Gallagher, as you were dying and, for instance, in this case, bleeding out, do you slowly lose consciousness or is it just like somebody cuts the lights off? People do describe it, people who are doing near-death experiences do describe it as an elongated process, nothing that's very immediate. They say that they come to peace with the fact that they are expiring, that a wave of calmness and peace comes over them in their final moment. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace guys um thinking of these students dying and back to you alexis what were their ages again anna was 14 kate was 16 justin was 17 and madison was 17 these are all

such young children. And you know what? Kate was actually taken. One of the police officers who responded to this scene, Kate was still alive when he responded. He didn't even wait for the ambulance. I'm going to cry. It makes me so sad.

He grabbed Kate and put him in his car to rush him to the hospital. He died in his car. Sorry. You know, Alexis, when I heard the audio that one of the teens had made, and you could hear them rustling around trying to get out windows, and the teacher going, put down your backpack. Forget that. Just get out. I just, I can't help it. I put, I superimposed my children, John David and Lucy, into that situation. And it's almost more than I can bear, especially upsetting are the warning signals. Take a listen to our cut 20. James and Jennifer Crumbly were immediately summoned to the school. A school counselor

came to the classroom and removed the shooter and brought him to the office with his backpack. Counselor obtained the drawing, but the shooter had already altered it. The drawings of the gun and the bloody figure were scratched out along with the words, help me and my life is useless. The world is dead and blood everywhere. Those were all altered by him. At the meeting, James and Jennifer Crumbly were shown the drawing and were advised that they were required to get their son into counseling within 48 hours. Both James and Jennifer Crumbly failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun which he had with him. James and Jennifer Crumbly

resisted the idea of then leaving the school at that time of their son leaving the school at that time. Instead James and Jennifer Crumbly left the high school without their son. He was returned to the classroom. Is it true, Alexis Tereshchuk, that the Oxford High School counselors allowed Ethan Crumbly to stay in class, go back in class the day of the shooting after he claimed the graphic drawing of blood and bullets was part of his plan to make a video game. He actually duped them. Yes, that is absolutely true. In fact, while he was, he was taken out of the classroom when the teacher saw the drawing, he, in fact, they had called his parents the day before because another teacher had seen him on his cell phone searching, Googling ammunition. That raised the first red flag.

So the school called the parents immediately. They did not respond to the school. But the prosecutor has announced that his mom sent him a text. Jennifer sent Ethan a text that said, I'm not mad at you, LOL. You just need to learn not to get caught. So he was the day before he'd been searching for ammunition. The school sent a warning flag to the parents, and the mom thought it was an LOL joke, which is laugh out loud. Okay. You need to tell me that very slowly again. The day before the school, a teacher

caught Ethan Crumley scrolling what through his iPhone looking for ammunition. Could you explain that again? Yes. A teacher saw him on his phone searching, searching for ammunition, gun ammunition. They, this was a red flag to the teacher. The teacher called somebody at the school that the school alerted his parents. They left the parents a message. The parents did not respond is what the prosecutors have said. Instead, one after the shooting happened, when they had Ethan's phone, they saw a text message from his mom that said, I'm not mad at you. You just need to learn how to not get caught, LOL.

What is that to you, Dr. Jory Cross? Is this complete denial? On the school park system? The mom. What is he doing scrolling through ammunition at school anyway? Why wasn't that phone taken away or some reprimand of some sort? Why is he looking at that during class? Well, again, you go back to the Michigan law. That's not against the law. It may be a red flag, but once the red flags up there, they didn't respond properly to it. What I'm saying is, why is he scrolling on his phone during school anyway?

That said, the parents don't even call back, Alexis? They did not. The school, so far, what we've learned from the school is they did not call back, but then they were there the next day. And then when Ethan's phone was taken after the shooting, they saw this text message. And this is one of the reasons. This is what the prosecutor had said, sort of laying out the timeline of what happened. Guys, we are talking about two parents, the mommy and the daddy, go on the run when their son is charged in a horrific school shooting. You know, Alexis, you earlier said that four are dead now. What did you mean by that, now?

So three of those students basically died on the scene. One died in the hospital afterwards. There are still about six children that are in the hospital. And nobody will really release all the details, but I believe some of them were in critical condition. So there could be more charges if anyone else dies. But there are also, when everything's said and done, attempted murder charges for all of these kids and the one teacher. So we hear about mom texting the day before when he's caught scrolling for ammo.

And she says, just don't get caught next time. L-O-L. Well, those aren't the only texts we are learning about from mom. And maybe this is one of the reasons all they saw of her were elbows and tail hole on the run, running the other way. Take a listen. Our cut 21. When the news of the active shooter at Oxford High School had been made public, Jennifer Crumbly texted to her son at 1122. I'm sorry, at 122 p.m., quote, Ethan, don't do it, end quote.

At 137 p.m., James Crumbly called 911, reporting that a gun was missing from his house and he believed his son may be the shooter. Further investigation revealed that the 6-hour 9mm handgun purchased by James Crumbly was stored unlocked in a drawer in James and Jennifer's bedroom. The gun recovered from the shooter at the school after the shooting was the same gun that was purchased by his father, James Crumbly. Take a listen to why charges are being brought against Crumbly's parents. Here's cut 22. This is the prosecutor. The facts of this case are so egregious. Reading this document, looking at it, reading the words, help me with a gun, blood everywhere.

This doesn't just impact me as a prosecutor and a lawyer. It impacts me as a mother. The notion that a parent could read those words and also know that their son had access to a deadly weapon that they gave him is unconscionable. And I think it's criminal. It is criminal. Explain to me, Alexis Tereshchuk, what the charges are against the parents. There are four counts of involuntary manslaughter. That is because four people have died from this. So involuntary manslaughter is where it wasn't directly their fault.

They didn't pull the trigger, but they are responsible for the death of these four people. Guys, take a listen to Hour Cut 6. It puts you in the location at the time of the shootings. This is Mary McDonald, WDIV Local 4. The accused shooter's behavior had raised red flags before yesterday. We have since learned that the schools did have contact with the student the day before and the day of the shooting. The shooting happened just hours after the shooting. The shooting was recorded. He was in contact with the student the day before and the day of the

shooting yesterday before the shooting that 15 year-olds parents were brought to school for a face to face meeting with school administrators over his classroom behavior. Just under 3 hours later, school cameras recorded him

and what's depicted on the video. Honestly, I don't have the words to describe how horrific that was. The accused shooter seen coming out of a bathroom and firing, aiming for students' heads with a gun his father bought last Friday. Aiming for students' heads, obviously going into the bathroom to get the gun locked and loaded. It was a Sig Sauer 9 SP 2020. You don't play with that. A 9mm. I want to go to you, Bobby Chacon. Explain what a 9 Sig Sauer is. Well, it's a semi-automatic pistol, which means that you can fire it fairly rapidly.

It probably held anywhere between 10 and 15 bullets in each magazine. He had extra magazines with him, which means he was planning on killing probably a lot more people than this. And so this is a gun that's commonly used by both criminals and law enforcement. It is a very effective weapon, especially at close range, like he was shooting. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So this kit has a Sig Sauer semi 9mm 10-15 bullets per mag with extra mags. Now, what about the parents? Take a listen to our Cut 26 7 Action News.

Tonight, U.S. Marshals posted a $10,000 reward in the case. James and Jennifer Crumbly are wanted on charges of involuntary manslaughter in the mass shooting that put their 15-year-old son behind bars. The search goes on as thousands gathered in Oxford tonight to mourn the tragic loss of life at the high school on Tuesday. And now we learn the U.S. Marshals get in on it. That means they're on the run. On the run. That's what the U.S. Marshals do.

They are government bounty hunters. When you get the U.S. Marshals do. They are government bounty hunters. When you get the U.S. Marshals on your tail, you're in trouble. Tell me about them going on the run, Alexis Reschuk. So the shooting took place on Tuesday. Thursday afternoon, the police were still observing them. They had kept an eye on the family the whole time. The mom and dad had actually moved into a hotel because there were probably so many people at their home. So they were in a hotel. Everybody kept an eye on them. Friday morning, nothing had been announced. There had been no charges announced. The police stopped their surveillance of the couple. Shortly thereafter, the prosecutor announced the charges. And the prosecutor, I believe, had spoken to the police

officer and they were given, I'm sorry, spoken to the police officer and they were given i'm sorry spoken to the defense attorney they were given a four o'clock deadline to turn themselves in four o'clock came and went they did not turn themselves in and in fact the sheriff then says at this point there was no contact with them at all the sheriff said he went on television to a news channel and said we have not heard from. They have turned off their cell phones and their attorneys have not been able to reach them, which meant that there was no communication. So that's when they put out the I guess they're calling it a bolo. Be on the lookout. The U.S. Marshals offered the ten thousand dollar reward Friday night. They are still missing. Troy Slayton is just like Ghislaine Maxwell, who goes on the run. Nobody can find her.

She's posting false leads like at an In-N-Out burger in L.A. when she's really hiding out in New Hampshire. These parents, they're not going to have a chance now for any kind of bond when they're arrested because they've already gone on the run. And what does that say about a parent willing to run for the Canadian border when their son needs them more than he's ever needed them in his whole life? Take a listen to Megan Fitzgerald, NBC. This morning, James and Jennifer Crumbly are in custody after an hours-long manhunt led to their arrest overnight. The vehicle is a black Kia.

It's the practical vehicle of the two parents of the expert situation. The couple found hiding in a commercial building after police received a tip. They certainly appeared to be distressed. Authorities say the parents of accused Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbly failed to show up for their arraignment Friday. They were finally captured hours later and he's charged with involuntary manslaughter. So Troy Slayton, I doubt very seriously they're going to get any kind of a, you know, reasonable bond after they've already gone on the run, caught about a half a mile from the Canadian border. Well, risk of flight is certainly a consideration for the judge in deciding whether or not to issue a bond. And also when it comes time to their eventual trial, any good prosecutor, I know if you were prosecuting the case, you would argue consciousness of guilt as evidenced by

their running at the time that they knew that there were charges against them. You know, gun control experts say the move to charge the parents is almost unheard of. What do you make of the charges, Troy Slayton? Well, Michigan doesn't have the child access prevention laws. So if they didn't do anything illegal, then the government will have to show, prosecutors at their trial will have to prove that they acted so recklessly, so beyond the pale that any other normal, average, reasonable person would do that a person would know that acting so recklessly would lead to someone's death. Would you agree that it's very rare for parents to be charged? This is very rare. And you are saying that in Michigan, there is no, what kind of statute did

you say? No child access prevention laws with regard to firearms. No rule that they have to keep guns locked up, ammunition separate, when there's a child in the house. For example, in California where I live, in New York, in many other states, it's illegal if you have a child in the house or a child come visit the house. Troy, you certainly are not suggesting that because there's not a black and white statute that they still did not know that the other students were in danger after reading that note and knowing he had access to a brand new Sig Sauer? By that same argument, Nancy, the school officials should know. Are we also going to charge the school guidance counselors? The school officials didn't know he had a gun.

But they knew that there was something that was so alarming that he was searching ammunition that they thought to take him out of class temporarily and then put him back in the class. You're artfully avoiding my question. I didn't ask you about them. I asked you about the parents. And by your avoiding the topic, I assume that you agree with me. You know, the district superintendent informed the parents and staff members Saturday that the parents never

told the school he had access to a gun. What do you make of that, Troy? I don't know how the gun was stored inside the house. There are some reports that the gun was locked. Maybe the kid found a key and got access to it. We don't know yet what measures the parents took to secure the firearm. We don't know whether they handed it to the kid on a silver platter or whether somehow the kid went uh around some sort of uh system that the parents had in place we do know that within minutes of the shooting the father called 9-1-1 and said he thinks his son might have a gun i mean the father made act. That's an act that the father did that shows that he knew it was very likely that his son had that weapon. He made a 911 call to

that effect. Alexis Teresha, where were the parents found exactly? They were found in a commercial building. It was actually an art gallery is where they were found, but they were hiding in a locked room inside the gallery. Hiding in a locked room inside a gallery. Now, I understand the owner of the gallery claims he didn't know anything about this. He did. Well, he's the artist. I believe someone else owns the whole building. He's an artist.

He said that when they called him, they said, we are getting death threats. Can we come there? And he said, yes. He says this was before any charges were filed against him. They were there. He left. He said he expected them to leave. He didn't know anything about the charges that were filed. Do you believe that there will be charges against the artist who was harboring them? What do you know about that, Alexis? The prosecutor has not said whether or not that they will if they will prosecute him or not.

They probably will need to look and see why he didn't know. It was such a big news story. But a lot of people don't watch the news. Maybe he was doing as soon as he left, he was doing something all day and didn't know. And they have said that their cell phones were turned off. So there was likely no way that he could have reached them after he heard, if he heard. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.