Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Parents of Mass Shooter Ethan Crumbley Blow Wet Kisses in Court

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Blowing kisses, sending love signals, secret signals in court, while each of them are charged with four counts of homicide. Really? I'm talking about the parents of school shooter Ethan Crumley. Take a listen to our friends at Inside Edition. Their son is accused of killing four students during a school rampage in Michigan last November, and the parents are facing their own serious charges of manslaughter for allegedly allowing him access to a gun. Now prosecutors want them to stop acting all lovey-dovey in court.

Starting point is 00:00:55 It started when James Crumbly was seen mouthing, I love you, to his wife, Jennifer, at a court hearing last December following their dramatic arrest at a warehouse in Detroit where they were hiding out. Crumbly looked on the verge of tears. Jennifer kept stealing glances in his direction. Then during a recent court hearing via Zoom, Jennifer tries to communicate with her hands. Next, she waves and then tells her husband she loves him. The prosecutors say the romantic moments must come to an end immediately. The courtroom is not a place for blowing kisses and sending secret signals.

Starting point is 00:01:31 This is a time for families to pursue justice. And those families are the parents and the loved ones of the students that were murdered at a public high school. Can you imagine you take your children to school that morning or you put them on the bus, and then the next thing you know, you get urgent text, you may see a flash on the news, your child is dead from a school shooter? And by all accounts, the parents had plenty of warning. His parents, Ethan Crumley's parents had plenty of warning that there was something very, very wrong.

Starting point is 00:02:11 And then you go to court to follow the case where your child was murdered. And you have to watch these two mouthing kissy kissy in the courtroom. Can you imagine how angry they feel? I think anger is one of the stages of grief. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. For those of you that are not familiar with what we're talking about, the school shooter, Ethan Crumley. Take a listen to Hour Cut 29 from our friends, MyTVHomeFox. Be on the lookout. A BOLO alert has been issued for James and Jennifer Crumley, the parents of Ethan Crumley, the accused Oxford High School shooter. Now we did have our reporter confirmed through two police departments that a statewide Bolo was issued for the crumblies just here on Friday afternoon, hours after they were charged with involuntary manslaughter

Starting point is 00:03:14 in connection to the Oxford High School shootings. Now a description of the vehicle or last possibly known location was released. Anyone who sees the crumblies, they are pictured here on your screen in that left-hand box. You're urged to call police. The Crumblies were charged just today with four counts of involuntary manslaughter. While some argue the parents should be charged with much, much more, because in many jurisdictions, involuntary manslaughter can carry a sentence of probation. Yes, that's true. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, Daryl Cohen, high-profile lawyer joining us out of Atlanta, former felony prosecutor,

Starting point is 00:03:59 now defense attorney, Dr. Jillian Peterson, forensic psychologist, professor of criminology at Hamline University in St. Paul, and an expert on mass shootings, the author of The Violence Project, How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic. Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, lecturer, University of Florida, host of a hit series, Shattered Souls podcast. Dr. Jeffrey M. Jensen, clinical emeritus professor, pathology, University of Michigan, author of Death Investigation in America. Jessica Dupnak, reporter, Fox 2 Detroit, who has been on this case from the very beginning. Can I just ask this, Jessica? How sickening is it for the victim's families in court to watch Ethan Crumley's parents blow kisses to each other, not to their son, not supporting him, but to each other? And

Starting point is 00:05:02 keeping in mind, these are the parents that had all sorts of alarms and bombs going off in the background, but they did nothing to stop their son. These are also the parents, to my understanding, that drained the bank account of three grand and planned to leave him, their son, behind and go to Florida to race horses. So how is that affecting everyone in court to watch these two mwah, mwah in court? It's disgusting. We were there and it was one of those things where you watch it in playback and you're saying to yourself, did they really just sign to one another and blow kisses? I mean, it totally demeans the entire process, let alone for these families

Starting point is 00:05:46 of these children. It's unbelievable. And it doesn't shock me, though, now knowing the history of this family and just some of the despicable behavior that has come out in court. You know, I want to go to you, Dr. Jillian Peterson, forensic psychologist, author of The Violence Project, How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic. And I know your expertise, but I want to ask you about just propriety. You have dead children gunned down at school, just starting their lives. And then their families have to watch these two salivating over each other in court. You know, somehow Dr. Peterson, I would feel it more acceptable if the mom or the dad mouthed, I love you to their son, as opposed to each other. Now that's just me,

Starting point is 00:06:49 but this is really rubbing me the wrong way, Dr. Peterson. You know, I agree. It's so wildly inappropriate. It's just hard to imagine what they're thinking. And if they take this, that sort sort of unseriously if they don't understand what these families have been through if they don't understand what this court process means to the families the victims themselves their son and it just kind of speaks to their mindset I think of how bizarre um they are sort of as people as parents as a family and the whole thing leading up to this point, it's hard to understand. And then their behavior in court is just kind of the icing on the cake where it's just absolutely unbelievable. You know, Daryl Cohen, I introduced you earlier, correct, Daryl?

Starting point is 00:07:36 Former prosecutor, now high-profile lawyer in Atlanta, correct? You did indeed, Nancy. Daryl, so many times in court, I would see parents of the defendant. And the defendant could be a killer. Just before we went to air, I was talking to you about a judge that you and I shared. I think you prosecuted and ever in city Atlanta, Fulton County, to be tried as an adult. Now, before you hate me, Daryl Cohen, this child was about 6'3", and he ran into a pawn shop, guns a-blazing. He killed either one or two people, and he permanently paralyzed another, still in a wheelchair today, for a handful of dope ropes,

Starting point is 00:08:37 gold chains, and then ran out. He had two accomplices, I think, that were 17 or 18, twin brothers, I might add, which was a whole host of problems for me as a prosecutor. But I started with him. We severed the cases. I severed them because I didn't want them tried together. I severed the cases, tried him first, and I don't have any problem with it. So when you look at the defendant, even though he is a juvenile, you look at what he did. I don't have a problem typically with the parents showing up to court to support their son, even if he's a devil from hell, mouthing, I love you, trying to ask the sheriff, can I just talk to him for one minute, showing their love. I would absolutely never, ever, you know, abandon my children no matter what they did.

Starting point is 00:09:38 But for the parents to be drooling on each other in court, that's a whole other can of worms, Daryl. Well, Nancy, this is unbelievable to me because when you go to court, you can't change what happened before. What you can change is a perception of reality. And the parents should have been there reaching out to the victim's family, not huggy, huggy, kissy mouth. I love you.

Starting point is 00:10:02 I love you to the son. That works for me. And I'm right there with you.. I love you to the son. That works for me. And I'm right there with you. But I love you to each other. It's as if the poor victim's family has nothing. It's just no big deal. We're watching a movie. They can't tell their child. I love you. You know, Daryl, I should probably, you know, tell this to the shrink. And I say that in a loving, caring way, Dr. Peterson. After I do a program like the one we're doing right now, I have to get in the car and drive to the school where the twins are in school

Starting point is 00:10:34 and make sure it's not a lockdown or some horrible thing hasn't happened. I mean, that is the way this has affected so many people, this school shooting. I mean, Jessica, Jessica, am I saying your last name correctly? Because I have a bad feeling I'm not. Nope, you got it. I'm so happy. That rarely happens. Jessica, joining us from Fox 2 there in Detroit, the day that this happened was a day I will never forget.

Starting point is 00:11:04 Take a listen to our cut for our friend Pierre Thomas at ABC. This happened was a day I will never forget. Take a listen to our cut for our friend Pierre Thomas at ABC. Student John Edwards describing the chaos to our affiliate WXYZ. So with the PA, we hear our principal, Mr. Wolf, shouting, Alice, lockdown, Alice, lockdown. And then we heard the gunshots in the class. And so we locked down, turned the lights off. Our teacher got paper taped over the window on the door and got his two big tables and barricaded the door. I was just scared. I was praying for, you know, my safety, my friend's safety, you know, everyone's safety.

Starting point is 00:11:37 Edwards able to call his mother. I could hear the fear in his voice. And I told him, I said, baby, I'm on my way. I've never been so scared in my life. School officials left reeling. Of course, I'm shocked. It's devastating. You know, Dr. Peterson, when I'm hearing that, my eyes just fill up with tears and I got chills because I can't help but think about my own children who I think are safe and tucked away in school. That's what I think. And at their school, it's locked down.

Starting point is 00:12:15 You can't get in. The windows are locked. The doors are locked. There is security. The whole shebang. But this threat was from within, and there's not a darn thing a parent can do about it. Yeah, that's one thing we've found in researching these cases. Of course, there's the absolute devastating loss for the families that lost their own children.

Starting point is 00:12:40 But then the ripple effect of this tragedy just, it goes really across the country. There's the kids who were locked down in the school, which that has lifelong effects of being terrified that you were going to be shot. There's their parents and families unsure if they were okay or not. And I agree, I'm a mother of three kids. I have the same sort of gut reaction where parents across the country kind of feel this fear and suddenly their school feels like an unsafe place to send their children. And then we saw hundreds of copycat threats in the weeks following this, where schools were sort of shutting down and locking down on a daily basis across the country. I mean, the fear and the anxiety and the trauma this causes people across the country, this one incident, it's really hard to grasp.

Starting point is 00:13:36 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So much has been happening in the case since it first, since the shootings first went down. And I don't want to get stuck on the parents, the crumbly parents playing kissy face in court. But that is concerning. I want you to hear our cut to this is raw classroom video from the classroom the day of the mass shooting. Our cut to. Yes. Sheriff's office. Safe to come out. video from the classroom the day of the mass shooting our cut to yes we're not willing to take that risk right now i can't hear you we're not taking that risk right now okay well come to the door looks like that, bro. No.

Starting point is 00:14:25 Yeah, bro. He said, bro. He said, bro. He said, bro. Red flags. Okay. Here's your... Go.

Starting point is 00:14:33 Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Starting point is 00:14:41 Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Slow down, you're fine. I want you to drop that back, you're okay. You are hearing students climbing out of a window. They see a police officer. It just hurts me hearing them scramble, trying to save their own lives.

Starting point is 00:15:08 Straight back to you, Jessica Dubnack. Tell us what happened that day. I mean, we got there. I mean, as we talked about, there's so many false alarms when it comes to these threats. But when we got there, we knew it was real. I mean, it was just total chaos. I mean, we were staged where families were being reunited and just being able to see these parents after hours reuniting with their kids just in a daze, you know, as if you don't even know what they've seen, the bloodied hallways, the bathrooms, and you could just see it on their faces that this is a stain that's going to hurt these kids forever.

Starting point is 00:15:45 And it was just total chaos. And then within 24 hours, a source told me that heads are going to roll. And I didn't understand what that meant. But now we go back to all the signs that led up to this, that led up to this 15-year-old coming into the school. It just adds insult to injury to know that this absolutely could have been prevented by many people involved. It's just, it's sickening. The victims, Hannah St. Juliana Tate, Meyer, Madison Baldwin, Justin Schilling, as young as

Starting point is 00:16:18 14 years old, gunned down dead in their school. Then seven other students were shot and lived. A 17-year-old girl, gunshot wound to the chest, critical. A 14-year-old girl, gunshot wound left chest and neck. 17-year-old girl, gunshot wound to the neck. 14-year-old boy, shot. 15-year-old boy, gunshot wound to the left leg, 17-year-old boy, gunshot wound to the hip, a 47-year-old teacher, gunshot wound to the left shoulder. I want to go out to special guest joining us, Dr. Jeffrey M. Jensen, Clinical Emeritus Professor, Pathology, University of Michigan. Dr. Jensen, thank you for being with us.

Starting point is 00:17:08 With the murder victims, Hannah Tate, Madison, and Justin, how long do you believe they would have been aware after the shooting of what was going on around them? Typically with gunshot wounds that are fatal and either striking an aorta or heart or lungs, a person has conscious pain and suffering for at least 30 seconds or so. It takes that long for the oxygen content to decline enough for the person to go into a coma. And so typically, an individual will have about 30 seconds worth of oxygen and consciousness in a gunshot wound that basically spares the head and neck area. And I would like to comment that even wounds to the extremities are particularly potentially fatal if they strike major arteries and that there is not immediate medical care available. of course, the jugular vein, obviously. And I noticed, Dr. Jensen, that several of these victims were shot in the neck. And I wonder if the perp was trying to shoot them in the head and got them

Starting point is 00:18:33 in the neck. But there are shootings, for instance, when you take a GSW gunshot wound to, say, your chest, and you don't bleed out immediately, but your lungs slowly are filling up with blood and you're speeding it up. It's coming out your nose and your mouth. That takes a little bit longer to die, Dr. Jensen. Yes, if the wound itself is not fatal, but then there's blood or hemorrhage that accumulates into the airways. The person could, you know, die from prolonged dyslexia or lack of oxygen because of the obstruction of the airways. And imagining as young as 14, Hannah lying in the floor, knowing somewhat what's happening around her,

Starting point is 00:19:27 everybody running and screaming, her parents aren't there, nobody's there with her, and she dies in the floor of the school like that? Why? And of course, and I recall this, Karen Smith, Karen, forensic expert and lecturer, host of Shattered Souls podcast. Karen, I remember the processing it took, let's just say on my first triple homicide. That was a lot of processing the scene than my best friend in the DA's office, who you will remember, Daryl Aldixon. I remember the days and days it took to process the scene at the Fulton County courthouse shooting where there were mass victims. A shooting like this, Karen Smith, that's a very difficult crime scene.

Starting point is 00:20:25 Explain. It's very difficult on a number of levels, not just the evidence. The investigators are having to digest what they're seeing, too. And, you know, I've had five people shot in one place. That was the most for me. And I can tell you, we were there for days. And it's not just collecting the bullet casings, taking blood samples, taking photographs, looking through that viewfinder to see what you're seeing,

Starting point is 00:20:54 photographing the victims where they lay, photographing and diagramming and all of the evidence that we have to do. It's actually processing it and actually having the wherewithal to put that aside to do your job. And, you know, for the parents, for the victims, for the students, for the people who survived, this is not going to just go away. They're going to carry this for the rest of their lives, like you do, Nancy, with your cases, like I do with mine, like I'm sure the doctor does with his. This is systemic. This was a failure on so many different levels. And that just adds to the frustration and the anger and actually the rage that comes along with something like this. Yeah, Karen Smith, we're finding out more and more and more about what the parents should have known. If they didn't know, they

Starting point is 00:21:37 should have known. You know, let me ask you this, Dr. Jeffrey M. Jensen, joining us out of Michigan. Dr. Jensen, I have no idea how many autopsies you've done, how many dead bodies you've seen. How does it affect you, or does it affect you differently when the victim is a child, like in this case? Well, we typically try to keep an objective opinion and your emotions under check. Certainly, young infants and children are especially tragic because they're so defenseless and dependent upon others. But, you know, it really, it doesn't matter if the individual's, you know, 32, 22, or 12. I mean, it's still a life, and each life carries the tragedy of loss to the family and the loved ones. Right now, I'm very disturbed about what could have been done to save these lives. And in my mind, it all rests squarely on the shoulders of the parents, Ethan Crumley's parents, who looked but didn't see.

Starting point is 00:22:58 Also, things that happened at the school. For instance, take a listen to our cut 11 WD IV. Madison, Tate, Hannah, and today, Justin, all dead after a 15-year-old student at Oxford High, went on a rampage yesterday, with seven others, including a teacher, wounded. Sir, do you understand all the charges against you? Yes, I do. Ethan Crumbly was charged with 24 counts, including terrorism and first-degree murder in a crime the prosecutor says was no spur-of-the-moment decision. Judge, a preliminary review of the defendant's social media accounts, his cell phone, as well as other document evidence recovered on scene showed that this defendant planned the shooting, he deliberately brought the handgun that day with the intent to murder as many students as he could. You know, I pack the twins' backpacks every night for the next day. I personally take them to the car. I know what's in the backpacks. I know what I've cleaned out of the backpacks. How could you not know your son was taking a weapon to school? And so much more.

Starting point is 00:24:08 Take a listen to our Cut 15, our friends at Inside Edition. The couple allegedly fled following the announcement of the charges by prosecutor Karen McDonald, who revealed the gun used in the shooting was bought for 15-year-old Ethan Crumbly as an early Christmas gift. One of Jennifer Crumbly's social media posts on about 11-27-21 read, quote, Mom and Sunday testing out his new Christmas present, end quote. She said the parents were called to the school after a teacher found a chilling note on Crumbly's desk. It showed a drawing of a gun with the words, the thoughts won't stop. Help me. Blood everywhere. My life is useless and the world is dead. The notion that a parent

Starting point is 00:24:54 could read those words and also know that their son had access to a deadly weapon that they gave him is unconscionable and it and i think it's criminal i it is criminal but not just that hold on the school has a part in this too take a listen to our cut 31 from gma while their son faces charges including murder and terrorism and is expected to plead guilty by reason of insanity j Jennifer and James Crumley face four charges of involuntary manslaughter. Prosecutors using records of text messages and eyewitness testimony to try to prove that their negligence contributed to tragedy. The parents of Ethan Crumley appearing in a Michigan court Tuesday after that Oxford High

Starting point is 00:25:42 School shooting that killed four students last November. Prosecutors say Jennifer and James Crumbly gave their son a firearm and repeatedly ignored warning signs. Investigators showing text messages Jennifer Crumbly sent the day before the shooting when Ethan got in trouble for looking up bullets on his phone during class. Jennifer texting with her 15 year old son. Did you at least show them a pic of your new gun? And, LOL, I'm not mad. You have to learn not to get caught. To you, Jessica Dupnak, reporter Fox 2 Detroit. How did the school miss him thumbing through his phone looking at bullets? But let's just start with the parents, the two that are blowing wet

Starting point is 00:26:25 kisses to each other in court in front of the victim's families. What were the warning signs the parents chose to ignore? How much time do you have? I mean, it goes on and on. Starting in March, eight months before the shooting, Ethan was having for about weeks, hallucinations at his home of demons and ghosts inside of the house that were throwing dishes around. And he repeatedly tried to reach out to his mother, saying, something's wrong with me, something's going on. She was busy at a horse barn riding horses and completely ignored it. There was never any mental health care given to this child. Then he started to mutilate animals, to which he brought a severed bird head to school just a few days before the shooting. He was searching school shootings and weapons on his cell phone so much that he started to get

Starting point is 00:27:18 pop-up ads for psychological evaluations and mental health. He had notebooks, two notebooks. Every single page of those notebooks, there was drawings of weapons and basically a manifesto. I mean, it goes on and on and on, all under the Crumbly's roof. Just trying to take in everything she is saying. To Dr. Jillian Peterson, forensic psychologist and author. Weigh in. I mean, I hardly know which question I should start with. I know. It's the warning signs in this case. I mean, it's this laundry list that goes on and on. And when we studied these cases, we do see this, that there's lots of warning signs and it's a

Starting point is 00:28:03 failure of people kind of putting together the pieces in a lot of these cases. This case feels different because the pieces were all put together. The Crumblys had all of the information. They knew all of these warning signs. They knew he was hearing voices. They knew he was struggling. And their response was to buy him a gun. And then they're called into the school and shown a picture where he literally writes the words, help me. And their response was to walk away. I mean, in this case, it's so unbelievable. And we've also mentioned the school. The school here, too, had social media posts.

Starting point is 00:28:39 They had a bird's head found in the bathroom that he had put there. They had bullets in the classroom. They had this drawing of a school shooting to the point where parents were pulling their kids from school because they were worried. So this school, I think there's going to be some real questions around that as well. I want you to hear this and then Daryl Cohen, you tell me, you're the defense attorney, the parents aren't partially responsible. Our cut 32, this is our friend Will Reeve at GMA. The morning of the partially responsible. Our cut 32. This is our friend Will Reeve at GMA. The morning of the shooting, the Crumleys went to the school for a meeting

Starting point is 00:29:10 with school officials. Prosecutors playing the 911 call James Crumley made just hours later. I'm at my house. There's my dad. Three years of being in the law school. My son's a gunman. I have a missing gun. Jennifer's boss, Andrew Smith, testifying that the morning of the shooting, Jennifer told him she needed to get Ethan counseling. Jennifer allegedly screaming in the office as news of the shooting broke. Later, texting Smith, the gun is gone and so are the bullets. Adding, I need a lawyer. Ethan did it. And begging,

Starting point is 00:29:46 I need my job. Please don't judge me for what my son did. I was surprised she was worried about her job at the time. I thought she'd be more worried about what was going on. You know, Daryl Cohen, I don't have a lot to compare it to, but I do know that when I got the news, my fiance had been murdered. I didn't even think about my job. I couldn't take in really what I was hearing. I still thought for the longest time if I could just get to him, I could fix it. And so my sole objective was to find out where he was so I could get to him, so I could fix everything. My job? Nancy, you can't make this up.

Starting point is 00:30:29 This is not even a Hollywood script. My job shouldn't even enter into the subconscious, much less the conscious, much less the vocal and the verbal. This is more unbelievable. Yes, I'm a defense lawyer. But yes, I try to do the right thing. And yes, this is not the right thing with her or her husband. This is riding horses, save my job, heck with my son, he'll make it. Really? This is not anything at all that any of us want to hear, but it's what's happening.

Starting point is 00:30:58 And as has been pointed out earlier, repercussions of this are not just the dead victims and the shot victims but everybody in the entire united states and perhaps the world because kids need to be able to go to school they need to be able to understand that school is a quote safe place in quote they need to know that it's okay they should not be in fear that some crazed student will come and shoot and kill. It just can't happen this way, and we've got to stop it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Jessica Dupnak, joining us Fox 2 Detroit. Jessica, not only did they ignore all the signals, the red flags, the bombs going off in their home, they bought him a gun.

Starting point is 00:32:01 What were they thinking? Why did he need a gun? Well, he was clearly obsessed with them. And I think that there was some guilt associated with this parenting that was going on that they realized and acknowledged through text message that there was something wrong with their child. They knew what was going on and maybe they thought this would fix it, and it certainly did not fix anything. I'm wondering, I'm curious about this huge treasure trove of social media and digital evidence that the state refers to. What are they talking about, Jessica? What social media? What digital evidence? Well, as far as Ethan Crumbly's, you know, his social media breadcrumbs, if you will. I mean, he was blatantly posting about guns, about demons, about very dark, dark things on social media,

Starting point is 00:32:52 to which his parents followed his account and saw all of that. And then in terms of other digital evidence, they were then relaying concerns to friends, the Jennifer and James, that there was something wrong with their son. They just continued to do nothing. And as we've said before, they bought him a gun to maybe put a Band-Aid on the problem. You know, Jessica Dupe might join me. Fox 2 Detroit. There was a very, very lengthy document, including evidence from before and after the

Starting point is 00:33:22 shooting, like text messages between the Crumleys after the shooting, crime scene photos, clothes of the victims. That, I guess, was the first time we were really seeing the evidence. Photos inside the bathroom where one student was murdered, chased down into the bathroom. Emails between school officials about the Crumley's odd behavior before the shooting. What odd behavior are they talking about in that document? In terms of Jennifer and James odd behavior? Either the parents or Crumley himself. Well, I think in terms of Ethan, what we've talked about is just the bizarre torturing of animals. All of the social media posts, there was some tens of thousands of text messages between Ethan and a friend of his talking about school shootings, glorifying school shootings, all of that.

Starting point is 00:34:19 And then it shows kind of juxtaposed with all of that going on. You've got the mom at the horse barn, dad's delivering Uber Eats, and apparently there were extramarital affairs going on. So you're just painting this picture through digital evidence of parents that were accused of knowing what their child was doing, that child later erupting into murder. I'm sure no one will ever forget the Columbine Massacre. Listen. One of the pages that had a recipe for a pipe bomb concluded, now our only problem is to find the place that will be ground zero.

Starting point is 00:35:05 Today, a sheriff's spokesman would not discuss any of this. All of that is part of the ongoing investigation and they do not want to make any comments about that right now. But some of the information given to the sheriff made its way to Neil Gardner, a deputy who was assigned to the high school. Had you been told about that? I mean mean did you have any kind of warning about him a little bit yeah that he might be capable of making some bombs in the past year brooks brown and eric harris settled their differences before the shooting harris warned brooks to go home brooks i like you get out of here go home. Brooks Brown was spared, but now his parents are wondering if their complaints to the sheriff a year ago had been handled differently,

Starting point is 00:35:50 could many more have been saved? So, you know, to everyone on the panel, this is not the first time parents have chosen to look the other way. Why is that, Dr. Peterson? I think a lot of parents can't imagine that their kid would actually do something like this. It's your kid. You tend to think there's no way Micah really being ignored, like we saw in this case. Even though they are doing all these things, showing all these signs, in many ways almost crying out for help, saying, look how messed up I am. I need something. And the parents are just ignoring it. We are also learning that the prosecutor is debunking social media posts that Ethan Crumley

Starting point is 00:36:52 is incompetent to stand trial, calling it 100% false. Now, I understand that a lot of people are on social media giving their opinions, which mean nothing, of course, in court. But they are saying that he is in no way incompetent, Jessica Dubnack. Why? I think there's just there's too much of a trail of a paper trail of and it was ramping up. You know, it started with searching school shootings to the point where it became obsessive. I mean, he's drawing in notebooks. I heard that there was videos that he did kind of a tell-all of what he was going to do. And then I think really the headline here is that drawing in class where he basically drew pictures as a 15-year-old would of what he was about to carry out two hours later. I mean, he knew what he wanted to do.

Starting point is 00:37:46 A treasure trove of social media posts, Crumley allegedly filmed himself talking about killing students the night before the shooting. A series of posts by him posted on Instagram just before the massacre. One of the captions appears to say, I quote, just got my new beauty today, and it's of a 9mm semi-automatic weapon. Another post says, see you tomorrow, Oxford, with a mention to death and the destroyer of worlds. It goes on and on and on.

Starting point is 00:38:28 I don't know how a jury is going to take it all in. In the past days, there has been a move to take Ethan Crumley out of adult holding and put him in juvenile, in a juvenile facility. Jessica Dupnack, what's happening? Well, that's been really the conversation since he appeared in court. You know, I think that right now he's going to stay put. He's isolated in an area kind of where medical treatment is given in the adult jail. He's 24-hour watched by a deputy, you know, very secluded. But his attorneys believe that he needs to go really across the street, you know, proximity to juvenile. But I just don't see it happening.

Starting point is 00:39:07 I think that it would just upset too many people. And with this being a case that's so media driven, I just don't see it happening. What about it, Daryl Cohen? I completely agree. He needs to stay where he is. The heck with his age. It's the focus on the crime that he committed and also, pardon me, the perception. This is all about optics as well.

Starting point is 00:39:30 He has to stay where he is before he's tried or before he enters a plea. He should not move. Just so upsetting that all of these warning signs were missed. Take a listen to our cut. 34. This is Elise Preston, CBS. Ethan Crumbly remained quiet as his attorney entered a not guilty plea on 24 counts, including murder and terrorism charges.

Starting point is 00:39:55 The Michigan teen allegedly opened fire in a hallway at Oxford High School, killing four and wounding seven with a gun that his parents bought him as an early Christmas present. A civil lawsuit against the Oxford Community School District accuses administrators of putting students in danger by allegedly downplaying Crumbly's actions before the shooting when he posted countdowns and threats of bodily harm. At one point, the complaint claims that the boy left a severed bird head in a mason jar containing a yellow liquid in the boy's bathroom. The school then emailed students and parents that there has been no threat to our building nor our students. To Karen Smith,

Starting point is 00:40:38 forensic expert, that is a classic sign that that youth will turn into a killer. The mutilation of animals. Absolutely. That's one of the trifecta. You have mutilation of animals, you have bedwetting, and you have fire starting. Those are the three things that you look for. And when I heard about this bird head found in the bathroom, and then I heard that the police couldn't link it to a specific person. But then I saw that there was video surveillance in the moments before and after the shooting and I

Starting point is 00:41:10 thought, well, where's the video surveillance of the bathroom with this bird head in it? Was that reviewed? Were fingerprints pulled from the mason jar that it was in? You know, students may have touched it and left their fingerprints behind, but you can still process that and look for forensic evidence to link it to the person who may have left it there. So there were a lot of balls that were dropped that made me question it, but yes, you're absolutely right. Leaving a severed bird head in a yellow liquid, which I will assume to be urine, in a mason jar in a boy's bathroom, and then have that reported to school officials and no action taken to find out who left it there, to listen to the students who were saying it was potentially Ethan that did this.

Starting point is 00:41:52 That is a failure that just escapes my mind. To Dr. Jeffrey M. Jensen joining us from University of Michigan, author of Death Investigation in America, Coroners, Medical Examiners, and the Pursuit of Medical Certainty. The title of your book leads me to my next question. When you, I mean, I will never forget the first time I investigated and prosecuted a mass shooting. I still think about it. And one of the crime scene photos, Dr. Jensen, there was literally blood running down the gutter. Literally blood running down the gutter. There was so much blood. At the medical examiner's office, how is a mass shooting processed when you have so many victims? How do you call in for backup? I mean, what do you do?

Starting point is 00:42:47 Well, on multiple fatality incidents, you basically have to rely on your disaster programs and your previous training because you just can't plan ahead enough for these kind of episodes. And, you know, our experience with the Jeffrey Dahmer case was very similar to something like this with all the evidence and clues ahead of time, and that things were ignored. And we treated that as a mini disaster also. As you should have. When you are performing the autopsies, Dr. Jensen, I would assume that you would rather look at the body as having the body chilled for a period of time, hours, or even a day for you to accurately, methodically take the time you need for each autopsy? Well, Nancy, you know, my practice has always been that the autopsy starts at the scene and that it's essential that the medical examiner forensic pathologist

Starting point is 00:44:06 is available to view the decedents at the scene and to gather their own information and objective findings as soon as possible in order to make those determinations as to time of death, pain and suffering, location of shooter and victim, and other really essential observations that can only be done when the forensic pathologist is at the scene. I'm taking in everything you're saying, doctor, and let me go to now Jessica Dupnack, reporter Fox 2 Detroit. Jessica, what's happening next? I know the judge denied a request to move Ethan Crumley to a juvenile facility. What's next? to the higher courts for now. And as far as his parents, James and Jennifer, there'll be further testimony later this month. It'll be day two of testimony. And that's really where we got a lot of the details of that digital evidence you spoke of. And then the judge will ultimately determine if that their cases, their charges will be bound over to the higher courts.

Starting point is 00:45:22 And simply put to you, Daryl Cohen, a bind over hearing or a preliminary hearing is just for a judge to determine. You know, I typically used a grand jury because I didn't want my evidence to be public. But a preliminary hearing is where the bare bones evidence of a case is presented to a judge, just a judge, and that judge decides whether there's enough evidence to go to a petit jury of 12. And then we'll send it to the correct court. For instance, if it's a shoplifting with $10, it'll go to misdemeanor court. If it's a mass murder, it will go to superior court.

Starting point is 00:46:05 Is that your understanding of a preliminary hearing? Absolutely, Nancy. I like to say it's not really probable cause, which is what the law is. It's possible cause. Did it maybe perhaps happen? And then it moves on. In this instance, it definitely happened. And whether or not he is found guilty by a jury, whether or not he enters a plea of guilty, whether there's an insanity portion of this, doesn't matter until later. But this is merely enough to say, let's move it on to the next court so they can deal with it and hopefully justice will happen. You're right. It's not a probable cause standard for a prelim. It's whether, and this is the black and white letter

Starting point is 00:46:46 of the law, there is an issue of fact to be determined by a jury. Is there a question at all? And if so, it will be sent to a jury trial or at least to a higher court. We wait as justice unfolds, not only for the school shooter, Ethan Crumley, but for those two parents that keep blowing drippy wet kisses to each other in court. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Parents of Mass Shooter Ethan Crumbley Blow Wet Kisses in Court

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