Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - PASTOR'S WIFE MICA MILLER: ENHANCED 911 CALL BEFORE SUICIDE REVEAL

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

Former pastor John-Paul "JP" Miller is awaiting a federal trial on cyberstalking and lying charges. Public scrutiny again focused on the suicide death of Mica Miller after the release of a three-part Netflix documentary.  Miller has pleaded not guilty to charges.  Authorities have not charged Miller criminally in connection Mica's death.      JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY: Regina Ward  - Attorney for Mica Miller; Criminal Defense Attorney,  Law Firm of Regina B. Ward,  website: attorneyreginaward.com  Eric Faddis - Founder of The Law Offices of Eric Faddis,   former felony prosecutor and current criminal defense and civil litigation attorney,  website: EricFaddisLaw.com  Dr. Geri-Lynn Utter  -  Clinical Psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations and risk assessments for individuals involved in the criminal justice system, Author of “Mainlining Philly: Survival, Hope and Resisting Drug Addition,” and “Aftershock: How Past Event Shake Up Your Life Today”, and Producer of “Utter Nonsense,” a documentary of exploration of addition and severe mental illness, available to stream on Apple TV and Prime Video, website:drgerilynnutter.com, Instagram & Facebook: DrGeriLynnUtter  Dotti Owens  -  Former Medical Examiner - Coroner for Ada County in Idaho - Founder of Dotti Owens Consulting   Jennifer Wood - Director of research at FITSNews.com in South Carolina, Twitter: @IndyJenn_  Dave Mack -  Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The shocking shooting death of Pastor's wife, Micah Miller,

re-ignites tonight as enhanced 911 call footage before her suicide is revealed. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The feds indicted a Myrtle Beach pastor preacher John Paul Miller after the shocking death of his young wife. Robinson County number one. What's the address of your emergency? I'm about to self and I just told my family to know where to find me. In Jesus name, in Jesus name. We were told so many conflicting scenarios of what happened that day.

Nothing added up. For her to drive an hour and a half into the middle of nowhere makes absolute zero sense. She survived by her husband, the pastor at Solid Rock Church. I'm gonna have you stand up and I'm gonna make an announcement. My wife has passed on me. I told them for years this would happen over and I said if she gets off her medicine, suicide is the next thing. He is lying.

This case has been eating me up because I know there was foul play. I know that she did not kill herself. That from our friends at Netflix Philippines tonight, the suicide, the alleged suicide of a beautiful young pastor's wife, Micah Miller. That investigation is re-ignited. Number one, her husband, John Paul Miller, is headed to federal court on cyber-stalking charges against his wife. We have been able to document 14 phone calls she made, Micah made,

to police about stalking, about harassment, about her fear leading up to her death. and tonight enhanced sound of her 911 call. What does it reveal? So many people refusing to believe that she committed suicide all on her own? Why? Why is it still lingering as the case reignites us partially because of a Netflix documentary? Listen. Oh, are you going to make me crying?

I love it so much. I can't wait to get a veil on. How much? That's the state of South Carolina and from Almighty God, I'll for now, you can kiss your bride. I'll be yours 100% of my encouragement, 100% of my efforts to make your dreams come true, 100% of everything that I am I give to you. I promise to always support your enthusiastic personality. I promise to remain faithful, loyal, and encourage.

loyal and encouraging to you. That from our friends at Netflix, that's part of their three-part documentary, The Pastor's Wife. That's a documentary in real life. John Paul Miller's heading back to federal court as 911 enhancement is going down. I want you to listen very carefully

to the original 911 call. But first, straight out to Jennifer Wood, joining us, Director of Research Fitz News, We knew about Fitz News for years, but they really shot to the forefront of the National Consciousness during the Alex Murdoch, double murder investigation and trial. And I will be seeing you, Jennifer, for the retrial as soon as that begins. Jennifer, it's hard to keep all of your cases straight, but I'm telling you, the Micah Miller suicide has taken on a gargantuan dimension now, because there's more focus on what happened. What is happening right now, Jennifer?

So right now, John Paul Miller is awaiting trial in federal court. That looks to be scheduled right now to begin October of this year. There's been, I believe, six delays by his defense team. And that's for charges of cyberstalking and lying to federal investigators. neither of those charges are tied to her death at this point. The stalking, however, she's the victim in that case. Isn't that right? The alleged victim? Exactly, she is.

And the police reports that we obtained for our reporting right after her death, this showed a pattern of stalking, of harassment, and of nothing being done by local authorities. It is one of the most frustrating stories I've ever worked on because this woman was reaching, she was crying out for help and very, very little was done on her behalf. Straight out to Dr. Dottie Owens, joining us out of Boise, former medical examiner and coroner for Ada County, now at Dottie Owens consulting. And she consults with coroners and medical examiners all over the country.

Dr. Owens, thank you for being with us. I find it very unusual that this guy who's paralyzed, he's a war vet, that somehow he manages to get himself paralyzed at the bottom of a pool and dies. But my question to you is, it was closed, and then suddenly, enigmatically, it's reopened. How often does the coroner or. medical examiner reopen a case. It's already closed. And why would they do that? You know, to be really honest, it's not very common for cases to be reopened. And usually that only will happen if there's new

information that warrants reopening and reviewing those, you know, the case details in that case. It's not very common. Not common at all, Dr. Owens. And all my years investigating and prosecuting homicides, I rarely saw a case reopened. It's very odd, so there must be compelling evidence to reopen the case. Now, Regina Ward joining us, attorney for Micah Miller. Regina, who is the woman that John Paul Miller married about a year after Micah's death? What is her name? Her name is Susie Skinner, and that's her husband that was found at the bottom of the pool. Okay, tell me about him. What was the nature of him being? Why was he in a wheelchair? It's my understanding that he was actually in an automobile accident, and that's where he sustained all of his injuries.

And it's also when he went to rehab for that, that's where he actually met Susie. So he was already in a wheelchair and paralyzed when she met him before they even got married. And when it came out that he had allegedly, Regina committed suicide. Was the thinking at that time because he learned his wife was having an affair with a younger man? Yes, that was the understanding is that, and I'm not sure about that age. And who was that younger man? That's John Paul Miller in true fashion, one after the next. Revolving door.

Revolving door. Okay, I'm getting to the 911 call. We're just drinking from a fire hydrant tonight. because so much is breaking in the Micah Miller suicide investigation. Now, re-ignited. I'm going to play that 911 call in just one moment. But hey, Eric Fattis, founder of the law offices

of Eric Fattis, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney, Fattis, it's never good when your client, aka John Paul Miller, is going to federal court on two federal counts, one of them lying to the feds. You know what? That's why we have the fifth. So you don't have to start. His congregation may have just sucked it up with a straw,

but the feds ain't playing. The feds ain't playing fattis. And now the other suicide has been reopened fattis? Federal charges are serious without question. One charge I see missing from there is murder. He is not alleged to have killed Micah Miller, at least at this stage. And I note too on the cyber stalking, they've got to prove that Micah Miller had a fear of death or serious bodily injury as a result of the cyber stalking. Unfortunately, without her testimony, you know, there's the confrontation clause.

He's allowed to confront witnesses against him. She cannot testify against him. I'm not sure how the prosecution meets that element. I don't know how strong these federal charges really are. So Eric Fattis, I love the way you always look at the bright side. So in your mind, the only bright side to the federal stalking and lying charges, the only bright side is, hey, they didn't charge him with murder. Okay, and you're also saying she never exhibited fear of her husband, pastor. Pastor John Paul Miller, okay, I hope you're sitting down.

Privately, Micah Miller tells her sister she is afraid of John Paul Miller, going so. far as to tell her sister Sierra Frances, if I end up with a bullet in my head, it was JP. Two days after John Paul Miller is served with divorce papers, the Bonnie of Micah Miller is found in Lumber River State Park in North Carolina with a bullet in her head. Isn't it true, Regina Ward, that she, Micah Miller, told her sister, if I am found dead with a bullet in my head, I didn't do it. He did it. that's right she did she not only told her sister but she told her best friend and and i think someone else from the church so she had said that more than once so eric fattis your claim that she had

no fear of him for pete's sake he's facing federal charges of cyberstalking her telling her he would put partially nude photos of her online post them as a matter of fact he admitted to that he admitted he did that to his wife to ruin her chances of ever working at another church again. How can you say she wasn't afraid? Just to be clear, I did not contend that she was not afraid. Did you just stutter? I think you were talking over me, so I got to get it's true. What I'm saying is that she probably did have that fear.

She probably did have that fear of him, but the realities of the courtroom are much different than the realities outside of the courtroom. In the courtroom, hearsay evidence is not admissible. Out-of-court statements are not admissible. You've got to bring a witness and to testify about this stuff. And I'm not sure there is a witness who can give admissible testimony regarding what Michael Miller said out of court years ago. The court's probably not going to allow that. So how do you prove that fear? That's really what I was getting at.

It's going to be hard to prove that fear based on the rules of evidence. Okay, Eric Fattis, I really respect what you just did because that would be a maneuver that you would use in court and it may be successful. It's called the hearsay rule and there are over 20 exceptions to the hearsay rule. What is hearsay? Someone told me X. Why can't that come into evidence? Because it cannot be cross-examined. that person that first said it is not there to be cross-examined.

Under the Sixth Amendment, you have a right to cross-examining witnesses brought against you that is specifically stated in the Constitution. That is why hearsay is disallowed, but isn't it true, Regina Ward, that there are over 20 exceptions to the hearsay rule, such as dying declaration. That's typically a statement that you make close to death. there are exceptions to showing excited utterance. Excited utterance is an exception to the hearsay rule. That sounds a great deal like an excited utterance to me.

Yeah, not only that, it's a present sense impression, which is also another exception. So someone can testify as to what their impression was of her statement. And so there are ways to work around some of that. Plus, there's a lot more to it than just what Micah said. She left a trail of evidence that can be authenticated by others. It's not her. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit.

Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. To Dr. Geraldine Utter, joining us, clinical psychologists specializing in psych evaluations and assessments within the criminal justice system, author of Mainlining Philly, author of Aftershock, how past events shake up your life today, and producer and star of utter nonsense. It's a documentary exploring severe mental illness. Dr. Jerylind, here's the thing. If you were suddenly told, hey, remember, all those nudie photos I took of you way back when, I'm going to post them and I'm going to destroy you. You will never work as a shrink again. Who wants to go to a shrink that posts naked photos of themselves online? I'm going to make you look so bad you'll wish you never met me. Okay,

that would scare me. I would be very concerned. I wouldn't know what to do. And that is what he allegedly told her. So these claims, she wasn't afraid. It's B.S. I mean, I think it's absolutely BS, Nancy. And a couple of things to bring to life. Number one, it's called coercive control. JP, her husband is also her pastor. So he's coercively controlling her by threatening her and scaring the, scaring the bejesus out of her.

And he's saying to a woman whose identity is rooted in her religion. She was a very faithful woman. She was a very religious woman. And he's saying to her in no mixed words, hey, if, you know, I'm going to take these pictures and I'm going to blast them all over the place and you'll never be able to be a part of a religious again, which is something that she held so close to her identity. And so we have coercive control there as far as he's concerned. The other thing that we have that that he possesses is he's considered to be a spiritual leader.

So now you're taking someone who has an authority over her just by sheer nature of his position, spiritual leader, husbands. and now you're talking to a woman that's significantly ingrained in her religion. It's part of her identity. So fear is just, you know, is at the top of the list for her. But also let's talk about how confused she was, how it really damaged her mental health. She was completely lost and scared. And she felt like she had nowhere to turn because every time she turned to the authorities or to folks, she didn't get the help.

And also one very other important thing is her mental health and the state of her alleged mental health, because we don't really know a lot about that, was weaponized against her again from her husband who was trying to control and manipulate her. So at the end of the day, you know, in listening to everyone and looking at everything, you have somebody that started to feel very helpless and hopeless because she was significantly abused by J.P., who was her husband and supposedly a pastor, a man of God. You are seeing video and photos from Solid Rock Ministries, where Miller was a pastor. Okay, I'm just a trial lawyer.

I'm not a shrink like Dr. Geraldine Utter. I'm not a medical doctor like Dr. Dottie Owens. I'm not an investigative reporter like Jennifer Woods, but I know what I'm seeing, and I want you to see Pastor John Paul Miller reportedly his first sermon after Micah's death. It just got a mile. When I was such a boy,

people build a love a lot. It just got stranger and stranger from there. Okay. That's from a Z.A. Mark on TikTok, Fattis. Did you see that? He's totally jamming. He's like tearing it up.

Thoughts? Yeah. Yeah, he's getting after it. there, and it's not the reaction we would expect. You know, folks have to put food on the table. You can't just pause your entire life for an indefinite period of time when something tragic happens. You know, I don't know what was going on inside of his head, but he was the front and the face

of this large congregation. And so he could have taken some time off. He chose not to. He chose to do what apparently he loves to do best, which is sort of be this perceived charismatic pastor and lead this big congregation. I'm not sure that that's a crime. I didn't ask you if it was a crime, Fattis. I mean, there are a multitude of things he could have done. He could have preached a sermon on grief. He could have preached a sermon on how Christ dealt with disappointment and grief and mourning. He could have preached a sermon on finding strength from your Holy Father after a

death of someone close to you. I mean, there's a million things he could have done, but let's just take a tiny peek at what he did do. That from our friend Zed A Mark on TikTok. Okay, let's get down to the facts as we know them right now. We know Jennifer Wood that John Paul Miller is headed back to federal court. We know that the seeming suicide of his new wife's ex-husband, the paraplegic, has been reopened for further investigation. Now we're hearing an enhanced 911 call from when Micah. was killed. Am I missing anything? I've got a funny feeling I am. Well, I mean, nothing about Micah's last day has ever made sense to me. You know, I went to

Myrtle Beach and I drove, followed her last steps the entire day from from the pawn shop to the Lumber River State Park and I can't make it make sense. I don't know if it ever will, but she, We left her apartments with just enough time to get her shift to a shift at work in her uniform. She packed herself a lunch for work. And somewhere between the drive to her restaurant where she was working, she turned into a palm shop and purchased a gun and went up to a state park in North Carolina that we've got no indication she's ever been to before. I want you to take a listen to some of what we've learned in the Netflix documentary, The Pastor's Wife. Micah told me multiple times, don't call me before 11, unless I call you first. John Paul does not like it if I get out of bed before him, so just don't call me.

I'll call you first in the morning. I was like, well, that's weird and unhealthy. She had, I would say, max, three hours to hang out. Right around the two-hour mark, he would call her. Dr. Gerald Lutter joining us, renowned clinical psychologist. So she had to lay there and pretend to be asleep. Oh, that was from our friends at Netflix. She had to lay there and pretend to be asleep until he woke up.

There's something wrong with that. If that's not control, I don't know what is. I mean, again, if you watch the film, there are so many examples. like that. You know, you can't get up until I get up. You can't be out with your friends. You know, when she hit the two and a half three hour mark, he starts to call. I mean, he wanted to control every aspect of her being. Again, we're looking at something called coercive control. Just because a man is not beating you physically and putting his hands on you or a partner does not mean that you are not victim to significant, significant abuse. And he controlled every

aspect. Not only that, he also used religion to manipulate her. This was a person who was invested in her faith and she's trying to follow God. And he's using scripture. He's literally using scripture and quoting scripture to basically say, you must follow me. You must obey your husband. There's actually sermons of him preaching talking about, you know, how you have to give your husband the sex that he needs so that he doesn't become tempted outside of his marriage. You know, there's just so much manipulation that took place as far as, you know, psychological manipulation that it's so disheartening. And you can see the physical wear on her face.

I mean, you can see how she was upset. I mean, there was records of her taking testosterone to keep up with his sexual appetite. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. It was so emotionally and psychologically abusive what she went through leading up to her passing. There was a knock on the door one day. It was a forced delivery person.

And he said, there'll be one every day this week, And Micah said, I don't want any more flowers delivered here from John Paul. He managed to continue to harass her with a constant barrage of text, telling her that she wasn't being biblical, that she was going against God's will. He had tried to contact her 53 times within a three-hour period. And he says, did Micah share with you her phone number? Would you mind telling me which number? I'd like to know if it was her burner or number.

not. And I'd like to know as to what level she trusted you. And then he follows up with, the police ask me as well, they're investigating the death, even though it all points to suicide. He is trying to take access of every communication she could have possibly had with any person so he can end her narrative and start his narrative. That from the new Netflix documentary, the pastor's wife, it's a three-part documentary on Micah Miller's death. grandiosity, controlling behavior, controlling even the phone calls and the texts that she got and returned, controlling what time and how she got out of bed. Was her death her own decision?

J.P. Miller had this grandiose behavior over Micah. He prayed on her weaknesses, shot her down, and then built her back up, and shot her down. made her feel she wasn't good enough, made her feel like he could make other people think and feel about her the way he wanted them to think and feel about her. He made her feel like he was all she had. She doubted herself, she doubted her image,

she felt like she wasn't good enough, and that is exactly where he wanted her. That from our friend, The Go Christine, on TikTok, many believe that she, Micah Miller, did not commit suicide, at least not on her own. I feel like Micah was lured to where she was found. I just have a gut instinct that she did not do this to herself. I think something happened.

Somebody killed her and tried to make it look like a suicide. I believe she bought the firearm for protection. for her to drive an hour and a half into the middle of nowhere makes absolute zero sense. Interesting. Interesting points. Did she commit suicide all on her own? That from the brand new Netflix three-part documentary, The Pastor's Wife. Let's take a listen to the actual 911 call. Robleson County 911, what's the address of your emergency? Hi, are you able to trace the location of my phone? Let me see. You don't know where you're at?

And National Park. Where's the park located at? In Bear Bluff. I have my location on, I think, on my phone. Find my phone is on. I just did my share of my location. Yeah, the Lumber River State Park? Yeah, that's where I am.

Tell me what's happened. I'm about to kill myself, and I just want my family to know where to find me. Okay, ma'am. Just listen to what I'm seeing, okay? Let me make sure I got the exact location where you're at, okay? Just one minute. Regina Ward, call me crazy, but... Did the dispatch person ever try to talk around of killing herself?

Or is she just like, hey, let me get that location where you're about to kill yourself? Exactly. And it really shows the lack of training for that. You know, I think myself and everyone else thinks the first thing you say is, oh, my goodness, why would you ever even want to do that or what's happening or what's going on that's got you feeling this way, while you keep them on the line talking and talking and talking while you're pushing the button to send out first response. to go save this woman's life. You know, I also wanted to say too about with regard to Micah, she tried to so many times get the proper help,

like through call and law enforcement, et cetera, and all of these things failed for her, primarily because there's no law in the state of South Carolina that defines coercive control abuse as a form of abuse. And had that law been changed back in 2020, where coercive control abuse tactics, is actually included in the law,

then he could have been held accountable for that. And so it's very, no doubt in my mind that Micah would still be alive today if that law had been enacted. And maybe she would still be alive today if that call, the 911 dispatch person had been trained properly. But of course, you know, that's an overwhelming phone call to receive. And it's easy to sit here and say, well, I would have said, what's going on?

What's happening? Tell me, you know, talk to me. But maybe that's maybe that's just me. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

Let's hear that original 911 call again. and then we're going to play where it has been enhanced. Robinson County 911. What's the address of your emergency? Hi. Are you able to trace the location of my phone? Let me see. You don't know where you're at?

A national park. Where's the park located at? In Bear Bluff. I have my location. on I think on my phone find my phone is on listed my share of my location yeah the Lumber River State Park yeah that's where I am tell me what's um happen um I'm about to kill myself and I just want my family to know where to find me okay ma'am just listen to what I'm seeing, okay?

Let me make sure I got the exact location where you're at, okay? Just one minute. Clearly, begging for help because she could have just put on her shared location and killed herself, but instead she makes this 911 call saying, I'm about to kill myself, and instead I'm trying to help her or counsel her, the dispatch just said, Okay, now where is that going down? So what? Now I want you to hear an acclaimed

enhancement of the 911 call. Where's the park located at? There, blah. I think I just heard it. Hold on. What? Guys, I heard it. Right there.

Oh, it's too much. I think y'all were right. That's wild. That from Nat to Cash, on TikTok to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter according to that enhancement she says she hears

someone stating the location before Micah tells 911 someone else stating it, not Micah. Nancy, that it actually made me sick to my stomach when I heard that

because until then we believe that Micah was alone in the park calling 911 so that they would have a location for her family to find her body. If that is true, then somebody was standing there, and this is not Micah taking her own life. Okay. To you, Regina Ward, Regina is the lawyer for Micah Miller. She is featured in the new Netflix documentary, The Pastor's Wife. Okay, Regina, I'm curious why a 911 enhancement was not made on day one by authorities. Yeah, so that, you know, obviously we don't have the inside information. My hope is that that actually did happen, but we wouldn't have any knowledge of that,

that any investigation is going to keep that close to the best. And if they haven't done it, I hope the heck they will now, certainly important. But so many things just don't make sense for that day. adds up nothing connects. You know, Michael was in my office, you know, not long before that, talking about our future dreams. I mean, she beamed with happiness. She was confident in her decision to leave John Paul Miller. But I tell you this, there's no doubt in my mind, because he got served two days before she died. And there's no doubt in my mind once he got served that he probably blew her phone up consistently over and over and over again, because

he just has to spend the narrative. And that's my opinion why he preached the next day, is he wanted to get in front of the narrative. He wanted to take control of everything. I want to look back at his first sermon after Micah's death. I got a call late last night. My wife has passed away. Yeah, it was self-induced, and it was up in North Carolina.

It just got stranger and stranger from there. I just wanted to confirm that his announcement that his wife was dead was the same day he was tearing up the keyboard by looking at his appearance and his shirt and the background, and yeah, it looks like it was. And that's from TikTok Z-A. Mark to Dr. Doddy Owens is joining us. former medical examiner, Ada County, founder of Owens consulting to coroners and medical examiners across the country. Doddy, while the one body, the suicide of his current wife's ex-husband, the war vet, is reopened.

If Micah's body was exhumed, what would the coroner or medical examiner be looking at? at as far as trajectory path or anything else to suggest this was not a suicide? You know, honestly, if they were to exhume her, that would be the first thing that we would look for would be trajectory. We really don't know what happened in regards to that. I didn't see a whole lot of investigation, you know, pertaining that. So that would be one of the first things we would look at. And then a full toxicology panel definitely on her. Uh-oh. Dr. Dottie Owens, I just recalled there cannot be an exclamation. There cannot be any further investigation regarding suicide or otherwise because she was cremated.

Whose decision was that, Regina Ward, that she be cremated? Well, of course, it was her surviving spouse, and he had excluded her family from seeing her body. By the way, there was a talk psychology report done. I had actually called it there to North Carolina and asked about that myself. But and also I also had a phone call with John Paul Miller about about him basically cremating her. And I was like, are you going to get an autopsy done? He's like, no, it goes, I don't understand why why that would even be necessary. And I said, well, because it'd give you more answers about that about her death and the circumstances or, you know, whatever the situation was. He's like, no, no, I don't think we need to do that.

I don't see the reason for doing that. So anyway, because he was our legal spouse and there had not been any orders issued with regard to their separation. And he went to work immediately to exclude her family in every kind of way with regard to that. Just total disrespect. The same old control, manipulation, harassment, controlling the narrative, all the way all the way past her death, you know, it just never, ever, never, ever, never, never,

ever stopped. Never. And, you know, Regina, you have worked so hard for Micah's law to be enacted, but Eric Fattas, you see problems with it? You know, I do. I think that this issue needs to be addressed, but we've got to be careful in terms of how we do that legislatively. When you look at the examples of course of control listed out in Micah's law, some of them

are problematic. You know, one of them is monitoring your partner's time. Well, that could be construed rather broadly. You know, people might have a partner who's not great with time management, that they're not punctual to family gatherings. And so, you know, being on top of that person's time management, that's course of control. Another one is repeated insults. Well, I don't condone insulting your partner, but I think there might be a First Amendment issue that could arise with some of these examples. So we've got to be very careful in terms of how any such law would be.

Are you actually saying, that abuse, verbal and emotional abuse is protected by the first Amendment. I thought I'd heard it all when I found out. You could burn the flag or say the F word. But now you're saying spousal or any type of verbal or emotional abuse is protected by the First Amendment. Did you just say that? Because if that's your complaint, it ain't flying. I think if a partner were to call their partner an SOB or something like that, that is probably protected speech or the First Amendment, whether we like it or not. And so is that also coercive control such that it rises to the level of a crime if other requirements are met, I think we get into problematic territory there. If you know or think you know anything about the death

of Micah Miller, the pastor's wife, please call FBI 803-551-4-200, repeat, 803-551-4-200. and I want to stress as of tonight Micah's death has been ruled a suicide with no contributing factors by others.

We wait as justice unfolds and tonight we remember an American hero trooper Chad Wolf, Michigan State Police just 38 killed in the line of duty leaving behind his wife Aaron and their children

Autumn, Micah, Corbin, and Colton, American hero trooper, Chad Wolf. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray, signing off for tonight, but I'll see you on. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.