Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Pastry chef-mom-veteran bludgeoned to death, killer 'EXCITED!'

Episode Date: March 19, 2021

Air Force Veteran and mother, Mary Barrett is found beaten and stabbed in the basement of her home. A suspect, "emotional and excited," walks into the Plymouth Borough Police Department to report he killed Barrett. The autopsy determined Mary's cause of death to be from blunt force trauma, and the manner of death was a homicide. Who killed Mary Barrett?Joining Nancy Grace today: Angela Sperazza - (Lead Prosecutor), Chief, Major Crimes Division, Luzerne County District Attorneys Office Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis - Licensed Psychologist and Mental Health Counselor, Adjunct Professor: Columbia University, Author: Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (2nd Edition) debbiejoffeellis.com Karen L. Smith - Forensic Expert, Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of Shattered Souls Podcast, @KarensForensic Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner, State of Florida www.pathcaremed.com Jason Campo - Chief, Family Violence Unit, Cameron County District Attorney’s Office, Cameron County Texas, Presenter at Crimes Against Women’s Conference  Bob Kalinowski (KAL-IN-OW-SKI) Reporter, The Citizens’ Voice in Wilkes-Barre, Luzerne County, PA bobkal.com Instagram: @bob_kal Twitter: @cvbobkal Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. How does a beautiful and brilliant young mom end up bludgeoned dead, dragged in the basement for her final hours, languishing there for days on end before anybody figures out mommy's missing. Mommy's not just missing. Mommy is dead. I wish you could see this woman. She's just beautiful, so full of life. Why did this woman end up dead, bludgeoned, dying in the basement, left there for days on end? Take a listen to this. If you listen to Mary Susan Barrett's friends, they'll tell you about a woman who can turn her hand at almost anything. Barrett, born in Louisville,

Kentucky, but raised in Indiana. Barrett has an associate degree in pastry chef and a master's degree in business administration. She's also a mom. Barrett rounds out her resume with service in the U.S. Air Force, including three tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan. According to her Facebook profile, Mary marries Daniel Barrett in May. The couple buys an historical colonial home, which Mary Barrett has been restoring during the COVID crisis. Outside the home, Barrett works as a secretary for her hometown community, Plymouth Borough. Wow, that's a lot to take in. You were hearing from our friends at CrimeOnline.com. Let me understand this. A pastry chef, an MBA, a veteran, like on HGTV, she restores homes, works as a secretary for the community, and to top it all off, she's a mom. It almost sounds too good to be true. Joining me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it

back together again. First of all, Bob Kalinowski, a reporter with the Citizen's Voice in Wilkes-Barre, Luzerne County, there in Pennsylvania. And you can find him at Bob underscore Cal or Twitter at C-V-B-O-B, Cal. Also with me, the Chief of Family Violence Unit, Cameron County District Attorney's Office in Texas, Jason Campo joining us. Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida. You can find him at PathCareMed.com. Karen Smith, forensic expert, Lecturer Lecturer, University of Florida, and host of Shattered Souls Podcast, Dr. Debbie Jaffe-Ellis, Licensed Psychologist, Mental Health Counselor,

Adjunct Professor, Columbia, and author of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, now in its second edition. Special guest joining me, Angela Sparazza, lead prosecutor, the chief of the major crimes division there in Luzerne County. You know, this case is almost too much to take in. Have you ever wondered, to you, Angela, who is actually working this case and understand there are going to be questions I put to Angela that she may not be able to answer to preserve the integrity of this ongoing investigation. Angela, do you ever wonder when you're looking at your caseload, because I sure did, why is it so often it's the great people, they get murdered,

and violence befalls them? Absolutely. This is one of, as you said, many cases. When we look at domestic violence cases, it really highlights to us the vulnerability that everyday citizens have. You know, you talk about people who deal drugs and we all kind of think there's an inherent danger there. But Mary Barrett was in her home. She was with someone that she trusted. And it definitely shakes a prosecutor to say there's things that you can't give anyone a list. Don't go here. Don't go there. She was living her life in her home.

You know, to Jason Campo, chief of the Family Violence Unit, joining us out of Texas, you actually present at the Crimes Against Women's Conference. You know, I'm just looking at this woman's, let me just say her resume, pastry chef, an MBA, a veteran, a war veteran. Did you see how many tours of duty this woman did? She went to Afghanistan, Iraq, three tours for Pete's sake. She's restoring a historic colonial home, like on, have you ever seen HGTV? That thing is always running in my mom's room. They're always restoring something.

And she's a mom, for Pete's sake. Why is it? Have you noticed all these wonderful women have violence before them? Why is it always the good people? You're absolutely correct. Unfortunately, violence can strike anybody at any place. We've learned in many of the cases that I've worked, it's been teachers and just everyday citizens and sometimes professionals. They don't want to talk about what's happening or what's going on behind closed doors, maybe to keep it hidden a little bit more than the people that we see on our regular day-to-day cases.

You know, that's really interesting. And Bob Kalinowski, I'll be with you in just one second, but this is quite a phenomenon because straight to you, Dr. Debbie Jaffe-Ellis, joining me, Adjunct Professor Columbia. I spoke with a mom many times about the murder of her little boy, Chucky Mock. And she has said that people actually act like she's a bad mom, that somehow there's a stigma attached to murder victims and murder victims' families. And you know what? I think it's true. Well, it can be true, and it's a great pity. It's really distorted thinking because the fact of the matter is when there are such appalling crimes, it's got everything to do with the dysfunctionality or psychopathy of the perpetrator

and much less to do with the victim. Guys, we were talking about a gorgeous young mom and she's like, I guess, Mary Poppins and somebody at HGTV and Martha Stewart all rolled in together to make this sparkling personality, her life cut short. You just heard from our friends at crimeonline.com. Now listen to this. A neighbor who is not comfortable speaking with Newswatch 16 on camera tells us that Mary had a background in the military and kept to a certain schedule. Every morning when he would walk to get his coffee, he'd pass by this window and see her drawing back the curtains to expose the stained glass into the home. He thought something was wrong when that didn't happen over the weekend. Court papers say she was also as a 14-year-old child from a previous

marriage. So how does this awesome mom end up dead in the basement? Big question. You were just hearing our friend Chelsea Strub at WNEP ABC 16. And we're learning more and more and more in what you just heard. And let me go to a special guest joining us, Angela Sparazza, lead prosecutor in Luzerne County. That's what is called routine evidence. And it's anything but routine. What it really is, is evidence of someone's habits. And you will find very often people do not deviate from habits

for instance this guy the neighbor says something was wrong because she has these beautiful stained glass windows and every morning she would open them up to let the light come in through the stained glass windows. And when this guy walks by with his dog, he says, wow, that's weird. She normally has her curtains open by this time. It's like clockwork. And you can actually introduce that at trial. For instance, here's an example. Remember in the O. Simpson double murder case, neighbors heard, as they said, a plaintive wail, a plaintive howl from the dog at a certain time. And they had never heard that from the dog. I think the dog's name was Akita. I can't believe I remember that. And that, prosecutors believe, started a timeline of a double murder.

Now, a lot of people don't think you can set a clock by a dog howling or windows being opened at a certain time every morning. But you know what, Angela, you can. Absolutely. And we look to, like you said, neighbors, people that interact with people on a regular basis. Sometimes, you know, as a prosecutor, we're going back and recreating habits and finding those habits and then looking to see where they fall off or where they deviate. And we rely on the people that are in someone's everyday life to help us create those habits. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about the death, the brutal, bludgeoning death, and I believe stabbing as well, of a gorgeous young mom. You know, when I had the twins and they were little bitty babies, I thought they need me so much. They're so defenseless. Then they got to be toddlers and I was forever making sure they didn't hurt themselves or fall down the stairs or get kidnapped at a park.

Then they got to school, which is a whole nother minefield for them to walk through. I felt like, wow, they need me so much. I've got to be there for them. Now they've just turned 13. And let me tell you, I feel like they need parents now more than ever. Is there ever really a time in your child's life that they don't need you, even after they grow up just thinking about this 14 year old child left behind when mary susan barrett is bludgeoned dead and i'm also curious how do you have a 14 year old daughter and the daughter doesn't notice mommy's not there i mean when i wake the children up in the morning that's the first thing they see is mommy then i start blaringaring, oh, what a beautiful morning on Alexa. And that pretty much wakes them up.

The old one with Gordon McRae from Oklahoma. They'll probably, you know, be hearing that in their heads from years to come. But how does this woman just drop off the map for days on end? With me, what an all-star panel. Dr. Debbie Jaffe Ellis, Karen Smith, Dr. Tim Gallagher, Jason Campo, Bob Kalinowski. But to you, Angela Sparazzo, chief of the major crimes division in Luzerne County, where's the daughter? Where's the 14-year-old girl when mommy's bleeding out in the basement? When we talk about before we talked about routines, we in our investigation find out

that a text message is sent to the daughter's father saying that there's issues with the dog. He's sick and that changes the drop off date. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm learning about a whole new wrinkle in this investigation. So there's a, the daughter is from a previous relationship. And the first thing we all know is to rule out the man in your life. So is that a previous husband or boyfriend, Angela? That's a previous husband. And that is the father of her daughter. Hold on to you, Jason Campo, chief of the Family Violence Unit, Cameron County

DA's office in Texas. When I start analyzing a case, I'm always accused of being a man-hater. That's not true. I love my husband very much and have a wonderful son. I don't hate them. I love them. But it's just pure statistics. You have to look at the men in a woman's life first. Why is that? That's absolutely correct. The people who are closest to the victim are generally the ones who are the most, they have the most time to be with the victim or to keep the victim away from other people. And they're the ones who can cover up the tracks when they go missing. So they're always the prime candidate in the beginning of the investigation. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, you can find him at

pathcaremed.com. Dr. Gallagher, I don't know if you've ever been asked this, but about how many autopsies have you performed in your career? Well, I don't keep count of them exactly, but it's probably in the neighborhood of 5,000 or maybe 6,000, somewhere in that range. I know what you mean when people ask me how many cases have you handled. I have to go back and figure out, well, the grand jury in Fulton County, inner city Atlanta, indicted about 150 cases a week, divided by, say, 10 courts. Each prosecutor running a courtroom would get their share by the next week then the next week then the next week i mean that's a lot of cases a month times 12 times 10 years that's thousands and thousands of cases you had to resolve one way or the other it's hard to but 5 000 cases okay anecdotally dr gallagher don't

get all bogged down how you haven't kept a record and you don't really know do you see more dead women or more dead men well it depends on the the the situation but generally in my practice is more dead men. Because they're violent. Sorry, man. I hate to put it out there like that, but it's true. Statistically. Well, they also take a lot more risk-taking behaviors, high risk-taking behaviors, and that includes chemicals and drugs and things like that. So driving fast, et cetera, that puts a very big dent in their population. Pulling the triggers on guns, stabbing each other, getting into fights and hitting each other with blunt objects. Yeah, you can include that too, Gallagher. This is not about speeding down Park Avenue in Manhattan.

This is about violent crime. Yeah, they do take a lot of risk-taking behaviors and uh they do act violently on each other wait risk-taking they kill each other well there's a risk of being caught and then you go to jail for a long time we know that you're gonna go down with a ship aren't you okay you know what i respect that to to you karen smith forensic expert can we just put it out there there may be more men that actually are ending up on the autopsy table because of violence but when you look at statistics i remember a stunning statistic that the number one cause of death amongst pregnant women i couldn't believe it until i found out it was the new england journal of medicine is homicide i couldn't believe it until I found out it was from the New England Journal of Medicine, is homicide. I couldn't believe that when that statistic came out. It's true.

I believe it. I do. I've been there. I've seen it. And, you know, when you have statistics like that, I think once you have somebody down at the medical examiner's office, it's a matter of looking at, you know, what was the cause and manner of death between each person? You know, there may be an overdose versus a gunshot. And it does seem it did in my career seem like a lot of the more heavy violence, the gunshots especially were men, where women, there was blunt force trauma, there was stabbing, there was strangulation, especially. That's my experience. You know, I'm thinking about this woman, and I've gotten totally down the garden path on this. You know, who went off out in the weeds?

Oh, it was me. Let me circle back to Angela Speraza, lead prosecutor. A text sent coincidentally that weekend when there was supposed to be a tradeoff of the 14-year-old teen girl. Yes, that text was sent to her ex-husband. So whoever killed Mary Barrett knew, or I would argue knew, that the daughter was going to be gone for a period of days. Is that true? Yes, and knew those routines we had talked about before, those routines that prosecutors look for. This is a person that absolutely knew Mary Barrett's routines. Knew her routines and, think about it, knew how to access her phone, I would argue, and send a fake text message.

You know, to Bob Kalinowski, reporter with the Citizen's Voice in Wilkes-Barre, there in Pennsylvania, where was the daughter as far as geographically when the mom was murdered? The daughter was in, I believe, in a town about 20, 25 minutes away at her father's house. So it's about 20, 25 minutes away in a more rural area than where Mary lives. So between the daughter and the bio dad, they would be able to alibi each other, you would think, as police try to figure out what happened to Mary Barrett. At first, nobody even realizes she's gone. This text message seemingly explaining her absence to Angela Sparazza, lead prosecutor there in Luzerne County District Attorney's Office. Did the daughter not talk to mom every

day or when she went to go visit bio dad, she didn't talk to mom when we talk about when the crime occurred to when it's found out it's a period of time where she was with dad and this text message seemed to explain that they were dealing with a sick dog so it didn't seem out of the ordinary that she didn't have contact on that day what was supposed to be wrong with the dog may i ask just old that would preclude the daughter from coming home uh just that the dog was old and they thought he might pass away and they didn't want the daughter to be there for that. And again, this message came from Mary Barrett's phone. So I think it could be argued that the daughter thought she did have contact with mom. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace guys how does a gorgeous young mom a pastry chef with an mba who did three tours of duty in iraq and afghanistan end up, bleeding out in the basement.

As cops start looking for answer, they get a bombshell. Take a listen to our friend Chelsea Strub, WNEP, ABC 16. A bouquet of red roses have been placed outside this home on Gaylord Avenue in Plymouth. The roses are for Mary Barrett, the woman police found dead inside the home on Monday night after her husband, 40-year-old Daniel Barrett, went to police and confessed that he killed his wife on Saturday. Went to police and confessed that he killed his wife straight out to investigative reporter Bob Kalinowski with a citizen's voice in Wilkes-Barre, Bob Kalinowski, that's something you don't normally see. For someone to waltz into the police station and announce they killed their wife. Oh, yeah. Every veteran detective I've talked to said that's very extremely rare and it doesn't happen. It obviously wasn't a huge surprise to the Plymouth Borough Police station where the man just walks in and says he killed his wife. She's dead in the basement at home.

You know, I've heard reports, Bob Kalinowski, that he was actually excited when he told his story. Almost gleeful. Is that true? That's the words used in the affidavit, and I don't know the context of that, but it seemed like excited, nervous, a little bit of both, I think. To Dr. Debbie Jaffe, Ellis psychologist and Professor Columbia, I know you just heard Bob Kalinowski with the Citizen's Voice in Wilkes-Barre. What could explain an almost giddy demeanor when the dad, the husband, comes in and says, yes, she's dead and I did it? Well, if we rule being under the influence of anything out of the question,

it could be a kind of dissociation from reality, from the severity of what he had done or what had just happened. Some people might hypothesize. I don't necessarily agree that there could be remorse. I'm not sure about that. Maybe he thought handing himself in might have less detrimental outcome than hiding, being chased, et cetera. So he chose the path of fewer complications for him. It's hard to know, but there's some possibilities. To Karen Smith, forensic expert lecturer, University of Florida. Karen, I don't recall ever seeing a defendant giddy when they confessed.

No. Giddy, that's a really strong word. I have seen them eventually remorseful. I have seen them very quiet, very sullen. They know what's coming. And most of the time, at least the ones that I've seen, they threaten to commit suicide and never carried through with it because they're cowards. But that's been my experience is that they're not giddy. They're sullen and they know what's coming to them. I wonder if it was because he was proud that he murdered her, that he took the place of the judge, the jury and the executioner somehow of cheating on him. After she admitted to spending time with another man, Barrett said he punched her and knocked her to the ground near the fireplace

in the home. Then Barrett told police he blacked out. When he came to, he was holding fireplace tongs over his head and was beating her with them. Barrett said he continued to beat her with those tongs and a fire poker before getting a knife and stabbing her in the back. Then he dragged her body into the basement. Blacked out. Wow. That was convenient that he remembers accusing her of cheating, punching her in the face. Then he blacks out and wakes up with a weapon raised over his head. But after he comes to, he continues beating her until she's dead, dragging her down to the basement to die or post-mortem. Blacked out at the moment of truth. Bob Kalinowski, reporter with Citizens voice wilkes-barre is that correct does he conveniently black out at the moment of the killing and then come to that's what he told

investigators that he blacked out and i don't know if that's he's already started trying to make his defense for trial um including using the the alleged cheating uh excuse as well i don't know if he immediately started planning his defense at trial, but that's what he said, blacked out. But then he confesses to continuing the assault afterwards to finish the job, allegedly. Yeah, the blackout defense is not going to really work if once you come to, you continue the murder. I got a question about the timing to Bob Kalinowski, Citizen's Voice. When was it, do we know or think we know, when the fake text was sent to the daughter as it relates to the murder?

So it looks like the fake, the crime, I believe, happened on a Friday and the fake text happened on a Saturday morning. Or no, the fake text happened on a Saturday morning and then he confessed on a Monday, according to police. Okay. According to police, Angela Sparazza, lead prosecutor, the murder happens on Friday, the text is on Saturday, and the confession is later possibly on Monday. Do I have that timing correct? We're one day off, guys. It's Saturday that the crime happens.

It's Sunday morning that the text happens. And then it's Monday around five o'clock that he comes to the police station. Either way to Jason Campo joining us from Cameron County, Texas. Either way, the state's going to have a field day with that because either he sent the text before the murder which means he was planning it and there's all your mens rea your mal intent or he commits the murder then he does the text to cover his tracks, indicating he knew what he did was wrong, which destroys an insanity defense. The old McNaughton rule. Did you know right from wrong at the time of the incident? Agree or disagree, Jason Campo?

That's absolutely correct. He definitely, in my opinion, knew right from wrong. He was covering his tracks with the text message. And I believe that when he confessed to the police, he knew that he was out of options and he wasn't going to be able to manipulate this situation anymore. And so what he would do is go turn himself in, manipulate to the police the confession so that he can make sure that he can say, oh, well, she was cheating on me. That's what the argument was about, because that's what these types of defendants do. They try to manipulate the entire situation from beginning to end. You know, speaking of the alleged confession to Angela Sparazza, lead prosecutor there in Luzerne County, I'm curious about his demeanor back to the giddy aspect. According to the police, which a jury is going to see this in affidavit form, and once a police, an officer takes a stand, was he crying? Did he exhibit remorse?

There were no reports, nor do we have any reports from police that he, this isn't a man who comes in crying, begging for help or calling for aid. He comes in and reports what he did. At no point is he inconsolable or is he crying. You won't see that in any affidavit or police report. Was there ever a 911 call or any attempt to help her? We talked about him being the one in control. For two days, he decided what would happen and there's no 911 call from Daniel Barrett. Just the neighbor going by and seeing that the curtains were closed. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Mary Susan Barrett is dead, leaving behind a 14-year-old girl without a mommy, just as she faces some of the rockiest roads she will have in her life. Going through puberty in high school and start forging a life without her mother. Take a listen to this. The criminal complaint goes on, saying Barrett heard noises coming from Mary after washing his face. So he allegedly dragged her to the basement where she later died. It's a nice neighborhood. We never have any problems here. According to court documents, Daniel Barrett had researched attorneys and ways to commit suicide prior to making contact with police. I'm just very shocked by the whole thing.

He researched attorneys and how to commit suicide but didn't do it before calling police. You know, Karen Smith, forensic expert, host of Shattered Souls podcast. That's just what you said earlier. They threatened suicide, but instead end up killing their wife. That's right. Exactly. Because they're cowards. They don't have the mental capacity to do it themselves.

So they turn themselves into the police and then fabricate this story of, oh, I blacked out. I don't buy it. I didn't buy it when I was on the street. I don't buy it now. He's a coward. That's the end of the file. You know, you were just hearing our friends at Fox 56, Jack Reinhart. But there's another there's another wrinkle to this story as far as the defense goes. Did you hear this, Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis, that he says he confronted her about cheating and that she admitted she spent time with another man? I wonder if he is now deciding he's going to try to argue heat of passion to reduce this down to a manslaughter. If he's doing research, I wonder if he researched that too, that he found out his wife was cheating.

I don't know if that's true or not. Then in his anger, killed her to lessen intent. Get it? Yeah, I get it. It sounds like a thing that he could contemplate saying. I mean, it seems to me that at the core of his action certainly was rage. And where there's a difference between right and wrong and legal and illegal, whilst he probably knew what he did was a crime that could get him imprisoned, he possibly thought that he was justified coming from this dysfunctional state of rage that she did what a woman shouldn't do and betrayed him.

And on one level, he probably thought in his idea of what a man should do, that he did the right thing to this evil, cheating woman. You know, the way you said that i could see his mind working that way of course this state is never required to prove the motive but as a practical matter the jury wants to hear the motive so the crime makes sense to them although no murder ever makes sense but take a listen to to Nicole Rogers, WBRE Eyewitness News. Like no way, like not Mary. And it's crazy because I was just thinking about her over the weekend. Like I sent her a Christmas card this year, right? Jim Byers was a friend of Mary's. He put flowers

on her doorstep, remembering their fond memories. Just very sweet the way that she would talk and just very caring. And like she would like check in, like I said, my mom passing when she would check in on me see i was doing to ask if we you know wanted to go out for coffee or something like that so she was always looking to make people smile police say daniel went to the plymouth borough police department and told them he killed his wife the criminal report says he was quote emotional and excited end quote just before eight monday night officers executed a search warrant and found Mary at the end of a bloody trail. The autopsy performed today determined Mary's cause of death to be from blunt force trauma,

and the manner of death was homicide. Is this a trumped-up allegation that she cheated? Is he hoping that will lessen the offense? Is he hoping one juror might agree she deserved to be murdered? Take a listen to our cut seven, our friends at Fox 56. According to the police criminal complaint, Daniel Barrett appeared emotional when he walked into police headquarters. Barrett allegedly admitting he accused his wife of cheating on him. Police say Barrett claimed his wife then said she spent

time with another man. That's when investigators say he told them he punched her in the face, knocking her down near a fireplace. Court papers say he then told police he repeatedly beat her with fire tongues and a fire poker before eventually stabbing her multiple times with a knife. I don't think she's the type of person that was going out and approaching men, you know, behind her husband's back. You know, this just strikes me as so wrong to Angeles Pizarro, lead prosecutor there in Luzerne County, that this woman in death this mother is really being tried as to whether or not she had an affair so what I mean I'm not the church lady son of my business that is a moral issue why is it that so many people are focused well did she have an affair

doesn't matter you've done a great job of outlining what an amazing woman Mary was and her family even mentioned to amazing woman Mary was. And her family even mentioned to us that Mary was even as far as to be an organ donor. She was worried about how she can give back to the world even when she wasn't here. So the fact that Mr. Barrett comes in with this very general allegation that the information is a man, that's the information he gives. That sounds pretty vague to me. I don't know that it's even true. I think that's a big question on everyone's mind.

But it's interesting how she's going to get tried reputation-wise as to whether she had an affair when the issue is him killing her. So let's make that the issue to Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida. You can find it at PathCareMed.com. Let's talk about the mode of murder. I hear stabbing.

I hear beating with a fire poker. I hear beating with a fire tong, punching, dragging. How do you make sense of the succession of the murder when you do this autopsy? Well, typically, you know, we find that if a person is killed by a stranger or somebody unfamiliar to them, there's usually one mode of assault. It's usually a stabbing only or it's usually a shooting only. You know, to have a stabbing and bludgeoning and different modes of attack is quite unusual. And in my experience, it often leads to the person, those two people being very familiar with each other. And the person who is doing the assaulting is using

objects that are convenient to him that just happen to be nearby. How do you figure out, or can you, the succession? Was she punched first? Was she then stabbed with a knife? Then the poker? Then the tongs? Can you tell that? And can you fit the object, be it poker or tongs or fist or knife, can you match it back to the wounds on the body and how?

Oh, absolutely. If the person who is being attacked is alive and they are, say, punched, then underneath that injury there would be heavy bleeding because the heart is still pumping and it's pumping blood into that area. We could also look at the wound and match it up to knuckles or fingers, you know, that would have been used in the assault. The same with the other objects. For instance, a fire poker would definitely leave an impression, a very unique impression on the body. And if it is used in the attack and there is bleeding and hemorrhage underneath that wound, then we could assume that the person was alive or they had a heartbeat when that wound occurred.

If there is no bleeding under it, if it's just a stab wound with no bleeding around it, there is no heartbeat present in the victim. And that would indicate to us that the person was already deceased. This is a post-mortem type wound and there was no heartbeat used to pump blood into the injured area. So it's very easy to determine what type of weapon was used and if the person was alive or deceased when they were. Which leads me to another point to Angela Sparazza, lead prosecutor there in Luzerne County. I'm wondering, did he leave her to die in the basement, just leaving her down there over a period of time? Or did she die right there near the fireplace? Based on what Gallagher, Dr. Tim Gallagher, has just said, her heart would not have been pumping blood.

So there may not have been an extensive blood trail from the fireplace to the basement if her heart was no longer beating. And I think it's going to matter at trial whether he left her down there to die over a period of days. And I also think it's going to matter at trial that she didn't have an affair and he's cooked this whole thing up

in order to get sympathy. What I can tell you is her injuries were extensive and at no point did he offer her aid in that period of time from, and again, this is his narrative, his narrative that there was a man, his narrative of how everything went down, but even in his own narrative, he never talks about rendering her aid in any way, even if it would have been futile. To Jason Campo, chief of the Family Violence Unit, joining us out of Cameron County, Texas. Weigh in. I definitely believe that the heat of passion defense won't be applicable here because you can see that he's trying to cover up his steps afterwards.

That's not usually the behavior of somebody who has heat of passion. They usually either call 911. He went upstairs, washed his face, and then heard noises, and then dragged her down to the basement. That starts from the very beginning that he's trying to cover it up. Not only has Mommy been murdered, now Mommy's being dragged through the mud over an alleged affair. Karen Smith, you know what?

This never happens with men. When it's a male homicide victim, you don't hear this. When it's a woman, oh, you know, it's her fault. She's a sex maniac. She needed to die. You know, I see it so many times. It's very disheartening. It really is.

And it's true. And you know what nancy i'm so tired of hearing it i'm so sick of hearing these stories about oh she was having an affair she was she had a boyfriend on the side you know what it doesn't matter she did not deserve this nobody deserves this and and frankly i'm really glad to hear from the prosecutor in this case because I cannot wait until that adjudication is finished and he's put away for good. So speaking of to Bob Kalinowski, reporter of Citizen's Voice in Wilkes-Barre, Bob, what's next? Well, Nancy, first of all, I do want to say one thing about the affair issue. And I made a bunch of phone calls the

last couple of days because I wanted to put my credibility on the line. And I asked a bunch of phone calls the last couple of days because I wanted to put my credibility on the line. And I asked a lot of people who know her intimately and know this case intimately. And people that worked with her in the community and all the community things she did and all the organizations she was with about a possible affair. And everyone has told me that's not her and there's no evidence of an affair. Bob, I just, if I could reach through this camera and hug you and kiss you right now, I would. Because I just, hey, isn't it enough the woman is dead and her daughter's going to live a life without her mother? Do we have to have her dragged through the mud too? Well, I appreciate that, and as a prosecutor, I probably would agree, you really a lot of times get to meet these and know these victims only after the crime happened to them and after they die.

So, I mean, I got to know Mary Barrett only after she died, and I'm glad I did. And I think it was just, she deserved to get her name cleared if her name needed to be cleared. And I put my, you know, I I did some research the best I could. Bob, I am so grateful that you told me that. When is this thing going to trial, Bob? What do we know? I think Angela knows best, but she recently had his preliminary hearing just on Friday.

And the preliminary hearing here in Pennsylvania, it's basically the local court step, the local magistrate step. And he actually waived the hearing. So I don't know if he did it on purpose to save the family any grief. But I know some of the prosecutors and police were thankful that they did not have to go through a preliminary trial before it gets to the county court level. So now it's good. Now it has moved to the county court level. And Angela and her team of prosecutors are going to prepare the case to see if it does go to trial. So Bob Kalinowski, do you guys have the death penalty in Pennsylvania? We, we do have the

death penalty in Pennsylvania. There's a moratorium, but there is a moratorium. Yes. Governor Wolf has a moratorium on it. So basically you can kill as many people as you want to. Prosecutors could still pursue it, but it won't be carried out, at least as of now. And I don't know. The district attorney and Angela's team would obviously have to file motions to see if they were going to do that. Yep. I'm intentionally not going to ask her because I know she won't comment. We wait as justice unfolds and prayers to this girl, this teen girl facing life without mommy.

Nancy Grace Crump Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.