Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Pilot Goes "BESERK," CUTS FUEL AT 31,000 FEET

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

Alaska Airlines pilot Joseph David Emerson was catching a ride from Everett Washington, to San Francisco, California.  The off-duty pilot was seated in the cockpit jump seat of Horizon Air Flight 2059,  having casual conversation with the pilot and co-pilot. Without warning, Emerson attempted to shut off the engine, midflight.  Emerson reportedly tried "to grab and pull two red fire handles" that would have activated the plane's emergency fire suppression system and cut off fuel to its engines.  Emerson was subdued and the flight diverted to Portland Oregon.  Eighty-four people, crew and passengers were aboard the plane.  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Ed Booth - Board Certified Aviation Attorney and partner at Marks Gray Law Firm, Fmr. Prosecutor, Airline Transport Rated Pilot, profession at Jacksonville University School of Aviation   Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: @TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology"  Captain Ross Sagun - Fmr. commercial airline pilot and air safety representative for over 40 years, investigation, Aviation expert and consultant for Sagun Aviation Consulting, www.sagunaviationconsulting.com  Mary Schiavo -  Former Inspector General of the United States Department of Transportation, Aviation attorney and CNN Aviation analyst, Author: “Flying Blind, Flying Safe”, Maryschiavo.com   Matthias Gafni -  Investigative reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle,  www.sfchronicle.com,  Twitter: @mgafni   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Worst nightmare. You have no control. You're trapped. You're actually belted in. You can't move. And you find out there is a life or death match fight going on in the cockpit of the plane. You're just a passenger. You can't do a thing, but it's not really a nightmare. It happened.

It happened. Where a pilot goes into the cockpit and tries to bring the plane down. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. What happened? Listen. Okay, I'll just give you a heads up.

We've got the guy that tried to shut the engine down out of the cockpit. It was supposed to be a typical Sunday night flight from Everett, Washington to San Francisco. It was anything but. Mid-flight, the captain made an announcement to passengers that there was a disturbance in the cockpit. A few minutes later, a flight attendant announced over the loudspeaker that the plane was in an emergency situation and needed to land immediately. Another 15 minutes passed and the flight attendant announced there was a medical emergency.

An emergency, not necessarily a medical emergency. Everyone sits there glued to their seats wondering what's happening. There was, as I said, a life or death battle going on in that cockpit with 83 souls at risk. Again, thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and What a Crime This Is. Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, I'm going to go out to Matthias Gaffney, investigative reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle. Matthias, thank you for being with us. What exactly happened? Let me start with a narrow question.

In the cockpit, who is 44-year-old Joseph Emerson? So he's a young father, and he's a pilot that's relatively new to Alaska Airlines. And the day of this incident, he's off duty and he's flying in what they call the jump seat of the cockpit, which is basically like a third seat right behind the pilots in a very small cockpit. And he's basically getting a free flight. A lot of pilots these days, they commute to their jobs. And so he lives in the San Francisco Bay Area. And so it appears that he may have been just flying home to SFO. So hold on, Matthias, he was rightfully on the plane, correct? Correct. Off duty as a pilot, but he was

essentially a passenger on the plane. And he was in the cockpit, correct? Correct. Let me ask you a couple of lightning round questions. A lot of people have sent in email questions. I'm going to ask them to you as we go along. Matias Gaffney joining us from the San Francisco Chronicle. So this guy, a 44 year old dad, married dad, was rightfully in the cockpit, in the jump seat. Anybody that's flown, you know what that is. You often see the flight attendants where there's coffee and all that. They bring down a little, very slender seat, and they sit on that, and then it folds back up. Is that what you're talking about, Matthias?

No, those are outside the cockpit. This is inside the door. But is that what it is? It's essentially a small, tight, narrow seat that fits within the cockpit, though. So this is behind the locked cockpit doors. So he actually was in within arm's reach of all the controls. Oh, yeah, absolutely. We have a diagram up today on our website where it shows the interior of an E-175 cockpit. It is incredibly cramped. Looking right at it. Great shot, by the way.

Thank you. Yes. And I mean, yes, the controls that he's alleged to have pulled were probably more accessible to him than the two pilots in front of him. Okay. Joining me, as I said, an all-star panel. Now let me bring in a longtime colleague I refer to often as a friend, Mary Schiavo, former Inspector General of the United States Department of Transportation. Thank you, Nancy. How hard do you think it was to get that spot? Former Inspector General of the U.S. Department of Transportation, aviation lawyer, CNN aviation analyst, and author of Flying Blind, Flying Safe at maryschiavo.com. Mary, thank you for joining us. I'm not sure that I understood that any pilot that wants to hitch a ride can get up there with the pilots driving my plane. Is that normal?

Well, actually, it is normal because it's up to the airline to check the credentials and they can check the credentials right there. Usually the pilot who is flying or sometimes the first officer checks credentials. The airlines are able to check to see that they really are pilots. And usually they have a short discussion to feel comfortable with each other, but absolutely. And a pilot from one airline can jump seat on another and when I was inspector general we did a big investigation because not only can pilots do that but the FAA can too and we found abuse by the FAA people just joyriding in the in the jump seat but yes it's legal to do that and there are a lot of loopholes about whether or not you actually perform function. And so that would be a huge issue here because

the pilot knowingly had taken mushrooms, legal in Oregon. They better reconsider that. But if you consider that he didn't have any flying duties, then technically, now I would say he had violated a FAA reg despite using shrooms, but technically he hadn't violated the regulations that says if you're performing a safety function, then you can't have any substances or alcohol or anything. really attached to the aviation industry. You're like zooming by us. Okay, I heard you say shrooms. And you said he had been ingesting mushrooms. And you said legal in Oregon. They better rethink that. Yeah. Agree.

Yeah. Agree. What does it take? Crashing a plane with 80 plus souls on it before they go, hey, that's a bad idea. But wait a minute. Don't you think Mary and listen I go up and I breath test every pilot of every plane I get on especially when my children are getting on it see if I smell any pot or booze they've got to

know what I'm doing I get right there if I go and take a big whiff they try not to look irritated but that said you the thing is, don't pilots or whoever's getting on a jump seat, as you call it, don't they have to be screened in some way? But you're saying it's verified he's a pilot in good standing. And I got to tell you, my husband has a lot of pilots in his family and they are as steady as a rock. You can't get a rise out of them ever. They don't drink. They don't smoke. They're flat, just like this flat affect. Even at a Christmas party or Thanksgiving party, they are just, you know, they're nice. They smile. They say things, but they're not excitable. Exactly who you want to pilot your plane. And

they're not crazy. They're not the life of the party, telling the jokes, having too much to drink, nothing like that. That's who I want on my plane. I don't want somebody high on mushrooms. That's right. You're exactly right. And there's just so many loopholes in the aviation regulations. And you only get tested when you go in. I mean, you aren't even tested. You only have your review when you go in for your annual physics calls. Whoa. Of course, I have no right to interrupt the former Inspector General of the U.S. Department of Transportation, Mary Scioto. Esquido. Let me bring in Captain Ross Sagan, former commercial airline pilot, 41 years, air safety rep over 40 years. Wow. Aviation expert, consultant for Sagan Aviation Consultant.

You can find them at SaganAviationConsulting.com. I could go on and on and on about how he never had an accident. He never had a mistake the entire time he was a pilot. But I'll skip all that. Captain Ross Sagan, do you mean to tell me, Captain Sagan, that a pilot only goes in for a physical once a year? Don't they have spot checks on pilots to sniff you and take your blood and urine? Well, I think it's a little stricter than that, Nancy. This pilot and most airline pilots get evaluated medically every six months for the first class medical. And some companies require a company physical as well.

Listen, I've had a company physical when I was doing a syndicated show, Swift Justice. You know what it was? They came in, they put a, what do you say, EKG on me. That lasted 60 seconds and they tested everybody for STDs. Now, I'm not kidding.

That was the physical. And guess what? I passed. But that said, what do you mean by a company physical what do they put pilots through i'm going to get back on the mushrooms and the fight in the cockpit with everybody sitting in the back clutching their children but what is a company physical captain ross sagan well it it varies the company physical varies company by company. When we were doing company physicals in my company, it was actually a pretty rigorous screening where we, you know, a nurse practitioner or doctor would check you for all your vitals, check your hearing, check your eyesight. And of course, there would evaluate you for your mental stability, which is always being evaluated, even when you're not under at a medical facility

in our business. But the FAA physical actually has become more and more rigorous over the years. I remember when I was a new pilot, it was fairly standard, as you described. But before I retired, things had gotten a lot tighter. There were more tests. Things were much more scripted as far as the requirements by the doctor. And I thought it was quite challenging. Fortunately, I was able to pass. Fortunately, you were able to pass because you're on the Nancy Grace Show right now. And if you had not passed, you'd be getting grilled, Captain.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, what happened? What actually happened in that cockpit? What? This captain was high on mushrooms and the Lord only knows what else. But what did he do? Go ahead, buckle up. No pun intended.

Listen to this. Alaska Airlines pilot Joseph David Emerson was catching a ride to San Francisco with Horizon Air Flight 2059 from Everett, Washington. The off-duty pilot was seated in the cockpit jump seat and engaged the pilot and co-pilot in casual conversation when, without warning, Emerson attempted to shut off the engines mid-flight. Emerson reportedly tried to grab and pull two red fire handles that would have activated the plane's emergency fire suppression system and cut off fuel to its engines. Okay, hold on. I need to understand exactly what I just heard. And let me warn you, Matthias Gaffney, in law school and when I was practicing law, I would get a big paragraph and

a brief. I'd have to cut it up into four or five pieces and listen to each segment until I understood exactly what was being said. And that just happened. That was a lot of information. Matthias Gaffney joining a San Francisco Chronicle. What exactly did this guy do? And he is a pilot flying me and my children, my John, David and Lucy, my husband. What exactly did he do back there on the jump seat? Yeah. So it sounds like the first half of the flight, everything was pretty normal. He didn't show any signs of any weird behavior. And then halfway through, all of a sudden he throws off his headset and says he's not okay. And that's where everything turns.

And he, according to the flight crew, what they told authorities, he reaches up and grabs what's essentially like red fire handles that are on the ceiling of the cockpit. And he pulls them down. And those are used if you have a fire in one of your

engines your right or left engine you can uh stop the fuel from going there which would stop the fire um hopefully from uh continuing to burn and you also have the option to rotate those handles which would shoot some fire extinguisher into the engines. Okay, hold on. Let me just understand what exactly he pulled. Hold on. Captain Ross Sagan, I believe everything Matthias Gaffney just said, but can you explain it to me? What would happen if I go in a cockpit and I yank down those two red handles? What happens then? Doesn't that cut off all the fuel to the plane? Well, if you're on the ground, the engine's not running, it really doesn't do much. But in this case, they're at 31,000 feet. Apparently, this gentleman reached

up and pulled the red fire handle on one of the engines, which essentially cuts off the fuel, the hydraulics and the air, the pneumatics to the engine in an effort to stop everything from going to the engine and cut off any source of fire or fuel to the engine. If he was successful, if anyone is successful in pulling those two red levers, which I understand are up on the ceiling of the cockpit, undeterred, would the plane crash? No, not necessarily. What would happen would be that the engines would start to spool down, the fuel would be cut off to the engine, and the engine would basically turn off, just like if you turned off the ignition to your car as you were driving down the road.

Right, but except you're up at 31,000 feet and the plane cuts off. Well, remember that basically the engine is spooling down and the way we get an airplane to come down from the sky when it's time to descend for landing is we pull the power back to idle. So the airplane is not going to fall out of the sky when one or both, even both engines are cut off. If you're over an airport, that's great, Captain, because you can just land. But what if you're over forest or, God forbid, water and there's nowhere to land? Then what happens? Well, an airplane basically comes down at about three miles for every thousand feet. So if they're at 31,000 feet, ostensibly, they're going to be able to glide about 90 miles with no engine power. Okay. Probably a little bit less in that case because there's probably

more drag with the engines completely off. But the airplane is not going to fall out of the sky when the engines turn off. What happens at the end of that 90 miles? Well, now it's a bad day. Can you be blunt, Captain? Normally, within that period of time, hopefully a competent crew would have done everything they can to restore the power to the engine. And this is actually a procedure that we train. Okay, Captain Ross Sagan, you never had an accident ever in all of your 40 plus years. But Ed Booth joining me, a renowned aviation lawyer, partner at Mark's Gray Law Firm, former prosecutor. Ed Booth, isn't it true that at the end of those 90 miles, if you're over water or terrain, the plane's going down. The plane is going down. You would do what Captain Sullenberg did in the Hudson River and ditch the airplane and evacuate the passengers.

There is a solution to that. Why is no one just telling the truth? I mean, listen, people. I'm a JD, not a DDS. I don't know how to pull tooth. But if you give me a set of pliers, I will try. Why is everybody avoiding the fact that if you cut off the fuel to the plane, the plane's going to go down? Yeah, I might have 90 miles before the plane goes down, but the plane's going down.

Period. I mean, yes, no. Is that true? Let me ask you, I vote. Maris, after those 90 miles, can you just tell me the truth? It is. If you shut off the engines and as the captain said, you can't get them restarted. And when my flight training, that was part of my training and one of the flights, we couldn't get them restarted. So absolutely, yes. If someone shuts off the engines, you're going down and it's not always a given that you can restart.

It's difficult. I've worked air crashes where you couldn't do an in-flight restart, not even a diving restart, and we couldn't restart. So, yes, you're going down, hopefully at an airport. I almost wish I hadn't asked you, but I had to ask you. Okay, what more do we know about what's going on in that cockpit? Listen to our friends at CrimeOnline.com. Before the incident in the cockpit, Emerson and the flight's pilots were chatting casually, according to court documents.

Then, without warning, Emerson threw his headset across the cockpit and said, quote, I am not okay, unquote. Then Emerson grabbed and pulled on the two red handles that would have activated the fire suppression system. CBS News reports one of the pilots told investigators that Emerson wasn't able to pull all the way down on the handles because the pilots were wrestling with him. Emerson and the pilots got into a struggle in the cockpit. And you know, that's another thing, Captain Ross Sagan. I want my pilot to be fit

so he can take on a guy like Emerson. I don't want a pilot that is clearly dissipated, certainly not drinking or on any kind of even an OTC, over-the-counter drug. I want him or her to be able to take on somebody like Emerson. And I'm hearing, oh, Emerson was depressed. Emerson this, Emerson that. Don't care really what he was going through because he could have cost 80 lives. And the reason I earlier said 80 souls is because that's airplane talk. I've heard pilots say it. We've got 200 souls on board. That's where I got that from you guys. But, Captain Ross Sagan, you need your pilots fit and ready for action.

And I absolutely agree. And I demanded it when I was a captain. We are always sizing each other up. And we are always screening each other, even if we're sitting at the table in the pre-flight briefing. And when we get on an airplane, we self-certify that we're fit to fly. And this pilot got on the airplane as an observer member of the crew. He was actually part of the crew when he got in that cockpit and he self-certified that he was fit well obviously whoa whoa wait are you saying the word self-certified isn't that like grading your own

test in high school that do you think i believe self-certify i don't believe that for one minute self-certify well it's just like when you when you uh get up in the morning and you feel like you're not feeling that well. And who knows, maybe you have COVID. But should you go into work or not? Well, that's what we do. We certainly can't go to a doctor before every flight. So we have to self-certify that we are fit to fly mentally and physically. And that's what we do.

You know, Dr. Sherry Schwartz is joining us, forensic psychologist specializing in capital mitigation. Literally, she wrote the book Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect at Panther Mitigation dot com. Dr. Sherry, I appreciate the self-certification that Captain Ross Sagan is talking about. What I really appreciate is what he told me about how often that they get physicals to make sure they're ready for action. What's interesting to me, and I want you to address how we feel, the passengers feel, because I look at the plane and I stand there before I let the children on the plane and watch to see if the captain gets down out of the cockpit and goes around the plane and checks the tires and looks up, I guess, under the hood. I watch him, her, to see what they're doing. And they

do that and that makes me feel better. What I don't want to hear is about somebody like Emerson, high on mushrooms, up in the cockpit. That's true. And Nancy, you're more vigilant than most of us. I get on the plane and I find my seat. I put my carry-on bag and I just trust that the pilot and the crew are professional and sober. Wait a minute. Dr. Schwartz, you don't smell the pilot. I totally smell the pilot if I can get that close to him or her. Go ahead. Well, I think that's a great practice. I mean, I always learn something from you, Nancy, and I'm learning a lot today. Of course, this is really important to pay attention. And to also, if you see something wrong, they say,

if you see something, say something. But I think most people are just trying to find their seat and they want you to board as quickly as possible because anyone who's flown in the last few years knows that it can be difficult. And so everybody's got to take their seat. And you're just trusting that who's in that cockpit has your best interest at heart. Your safety is a priority. And so when something like this happens, it's earth shattering. I immediately now, I've never looked into FAA regulations on mental health for pilots. And now I've been looking at it and wondering why it isn't a little more stringent than it seems to be. It seems to be self-report. Everett could say,

nope, I'm good, no mental health issues. But he reported in the wake of this that he's been depressed for six years. Six years he's been depressed. Guys, what more are we learning? Take a listen to our friend Dave Mack. Joseph Emerson tried to shut down both of the Embraer 175's engines by pulling its fire extinguisher handles. Those handles, located above the pilots' heads, look like a T. And when they are pulled, a valve in each wing closes, stopping the flow of fuel to the engines. And more. When the flight crew wrestled with Emerson, one of the pilots grabbed his wrist,

preventing those valves from being fully engaged, maintaining fuel levels for flight. In a statement from Alaska Airlines, quote, the Horizon captain and first officer quickly responded. Engine power was not lost and the crew secured the aircraft, unquote. The flight was diverted to Portland, Oregon. As the aircraft was landing in Portland, federal prosecutors say Emerson tried grabbing the handle of an emergency exit to open it while still in flight. Flight attendants were detaining him at the time. Mary Schiavo, what happens if you open the emergency exit in flight? Well, you know, if you open it now, they used to say you could not do that, except that happened about a year ago.

Someone managed to do that. And if you do, you have a rapid decompression. Rapid decompression can cause a loss of the aircraft and it can be impossible to recover from. But if you open it in flight, you're going to have a rapid decompression and there's always a risk of a hull loss, meaning you're in a loose plane. Okay. When you say rapid decompression, that seems to be airbrushing what really happens. What happens on a plane mid-flight, 31,000 feet in the air, when there is, quote, rapid decompression? Everything that's not belted down, including people, is sucked out of the aircraft. And it has happened before, and that is exactly what happens.

People are sucked out of the plane. And I don't mean to make light of it, but people who have seen the movie Snakes on a Plane and, you know, when all the snakes are sucked out, that's what happens except when it's a person's flight, the people are sucked out or the baggage that isn't tied down and the flight attendants for the service card, that's a rapid deconversion. I was going to impress you with my knowledge of aviation by quoting snakes on a plane, but decided you did not need to hear that. But you did it to me first. Captain Ross Sagan, this guy, a captain, of course, in his own right, knew exactly what

not to do. Pull down those red levers that cut off the fuel to the engines and try to open the emergency exit. Was he on a suicide mission? One has to wonder, and I'm not so sure that he was really, you know, all there. Because like you said, he was a captain.

He was well-versed in the operation of the aircraft. And he should have known that you can't open that door at 31,000 feet. Mary is exactly right. It did happen, but I think what the incident she was referring to happened down low, where the pressure on that door is very low as the aircraft's getting ready to land. But this aircraft is at altitude. There's six to eight pounds per square inch on every inch of that door there's hundreds if not thousands of pounds of pressure on that door he would have to have been Superman to open that door at 31,000 feet so and he should have known that so why he did that knowing that it's impossible is beyond me I think the

scariest thing for me about the whole incident is not that he grabbed, that he was grabbing the fire handles, but that we had a, we had a emotionally unstable person in the cockpit and both of us, both of the flying pilots in the front seats were now occupied and trying to control this person instead of doing what they're supposed to be doing. And that is flying flying the airplane which is a job of course in and of itself should be which should be paid attention to and it wasn't for those moments this is not the first time that a mid-air flight is in danger take a listen to our cut 12. A German airliner left for Barcelona around 10 a.m. local time heading to Dusseldorf, Germany. The plane reached its cruising altitude of 38,000

feet at 10.27 a.m. After reaching that cruising altitude, the captain, 34-year-old Patrick Sondenheimer, turned the controls over to the co-pilot, 27-year-old Andres Lubitz, so he could use the restroom. At 10.31 a.m., the plane begins a rapid descent. Ten minutes later, at 10.41 a.m., the plane, with 149 souls on board, crashed into the mountainous terrain in southern France. There were no survivors. And more in Cut 13. When a Boeing 737 MAX being operated by Indonesia's Lion Air began having problems mid-flight, a pilot in the jump seat became a hero as he helped the crew stop the plane's nose from repeatedly pointing down. Disaster was averted, and a hero was born. However, on the plane's very next flight, the same thing happened.

No hero in the jump seat this time. The plane crashed into the Java Sea 13 minutes after takeoff on October 29, 2018, killing all 189 people on board. The resulting investigation blamed everyone from Boeing to the flight crew. Back to the case at hand. What happened in that cockpit and why? Listen. Passenger Aubrey Gave tells abc news that she heard the flight attendant tell a man walking to the back of the plane quote we're going to be fine it's okay we'll get you off the plane okay i'll just give you a heads up we've got the uh guy that tried to shut the engines down uh out of the cockpit um and he doesn't sound like he's causing any issue in the back right now. I think he's subdued.

Other than that, yeah, we won't allow a person to get on the ground in part. The threat is now in the back of the airplane, so we're reduced on the threat level. We're going to check in with the flight attendant to make sure everything is running smoothly, but it seems like he's settled down as soon as he, after one moment of going a little bit overboard, we put him back. It escalated to a four, but he's out of the cockpit now.

He's handcuffed and he's on a half-back jump when law enforcement arrives, and right now he's staying calm. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Matthias Gaffney joining us, investigative reporter with San Francisco Chronicle. Did you hear that pilot? He was just as cool as a cucumber. He could have been reading the stock report, you know, the stocks and bonds just even killed and steady. And that's what I want to hear. Explain to me what he was telling the control tower.

What happened once the pilots subdued this guy, another pilot? Yeah, he was basically informing them that they had an in-flight emergency, that they had a guy who was in the jump seat try to turn off the engines, and the pilot is letting the air traffic controllers know the situation, and now that off-duty pilot is in the back of the plane and appears to be calming down and is handcuffed. And then he also mentions to them to have law enforcement ready to pick up at the gate, as this is obviously something they're going to report as a crime. And somehow they've got him handcuffed and all the way to the back of the plane. Listen. He doesn't sound like he's causing any issue in the back right now. I think he's the dude. Other than that, yeah, we want law enforcement to get on the ground in part.

The threat is now in the back of the airplane, so we're reduced on the threat level. Passengers watched as a man in handcuffs was escorted to the back of the plane. There was no other explanation except the flight attendant's announcement about a medical emergency. The plane was diverted to Portland, Oregon, where police stood by to take the handcuffed man off the plane. Passenger Alex Wood tells ABC News the man was wearing a lanyard, a sweater, and looked like an airline employee. Ten officers meet the plane as, thank God in heaven, it pulls into the gate. Mary Scavo, I gotta tell you, just listening to that pilot and hearing Captain Sagan, it actually makes my chest hurt to think of the near fatality that occurred. Because Mary, you and I have talked about this.

I was there on 9-11 in New York. And for the longest time, no planes could fly over Manhattan. I remember the first night I had snuck into the workout room in my apartment building, which was at the top of the building and all the lights were off in there. I was running the treadmill. It's like nine, 10 o'clock at night. And I saw a plane go over Manhattan and I jumped off the treadmill and jumped down on the floor and tried to call my now husband. That was just my immediate impulse. And then I'm like, whoa, whoa, why is there a plane?

Everything's okay. And I got up and watched the plane fly over. I mean, this is extremely traumatic. It's very traumatic. And we're in a new age of aviation. So many improvements have made it very very safe the statistics have been going in the right direction for aviation safety but on aviation security now air pilot intentional pilot actions or pilot

suicide how you count the accidents is the leading cause of death or the second leading cause of death on commercial air flights. And the FAA has been under tremendous criticism for getting a better handle on how do we evaluate pilot mental fitness to fly. And as recently as this summer, my old office did a study and told the FAA, get a better handle on this. Come up with some better tests. Come up with something better. And the FAA said, of course, well, we'll work on it. But it is an issue. And you can't blame pilots for not wanting to discuss their mental health because if they come forward, they'll be grounded. But we need a better way to handle the situation and to improve our security since we are improving our, you know,

all the safety features on the aircraft. To Ed Booth, a high-profile aviation lawyer, I want you to hear this. Take a listen to crimeonline.com. Joseph Emerson hadn't slept in 40 hours and started suffering from depression about six months ago. ABC News reports he told the flight attendants to restrain him because he was having a nervous breakdown. Emerson also discussed his use of psychedelic mushrooms and reportedly thought he was dreaming and just wanted to wake up. 44-year-old Joseph David Emerson lives in Pleasant Hill, California. The married father of two is well-liked by his neighbors who describe him as positive, very friendly, and upbeat. Emerson is an FAA licensed pilot. He

joined Alaska Airlines as a Horizon First officer in 2001. 11 years later, he left the airline to fly for Virgin America. Emerson returned to Alaska in 2016 when the carrier acquired Virgin America, and he became a captain with Alaska Airlines in 2019. To Ed Booth, high-profile aviation lawyer and so much more, Ed Booth, I don't care if he's depressed. I don't want him in the cockpit. I think everyone would agree with that. Part of my practice is representing pilots whose medical credentials are called into question by the FAA.

And there are so many disincentives for pilots to disclose problems because of what happens when they do. I think it's important to understand that when you go for a medical exam, there are three questions that allow the FAA to diagnose mental disorders. They ask the pilot, applicant, do you suffer from mental disorders of any sort, such as depression or anxiety? They ask, are you currently using any medications? And they're looking for psychotropic drugs. And then they ask you about visits to health professionals within the past three years. And if you put a psychiatrist or psychologist down there, they are going to make some inquiries. But these inquiries are so harsh, even with pilots with minor anxiety problems, that no one reports them. And we've heard this pilot had been suffering from depression for six years.

He would have been examined six times at least. He lied, I suppose, six times when asked if he suffered from depression. We're learning it may be six months. Jackie, isn't it six months? It's six months. Would that have encompassed one of his physical exams? And when they have a physical exam, do they also have a mental exam? Nancy, they are asked if they have mental disorders.

There's no mental exam. I've been through dozens of these physicals myself, and it's a self-reporting system. I'm trying to figure out how long it takes your body to metabolize, as they're called, magic mushrooms. What effect do they have on you? You can take a higher dosage, a lower dosage, but they act as a psychotropic drug to my understanding. And what did he mean, Dr. Sherry Schwartz, by I'm having a nervous breakdown? Well, so that's an interesting one, kind of like insanity is not in the diagnostic and statistical manual. Neither is mental breakdown, but it is something that we use to describe a certain mental state.

And so what I can surmise that he means is that he's just not okay. He's having some sort of break with reality. It could be a brief psychotic episode. It could be due to the magic mushrooms or something else. It could be due to experiencing the tragedy of the death of his loved one, underlying mental illness like the depression that he described, lack of a strong support system. There's so many things that can lead into what we describe as having a mental breakdown. used psychedelic psychotropic mushrooms but apparently the effects last for about three to six hours and the residuals stay in your system at least 24 hours after but it's just in my mind like drinking and driving mushrooms to

my understanding the right ones will have like an LSD effect on you if you take them. And to me, it's just like driving while drunk, except now you've got 80 plus souls in your hands. Take a listen to our cut eight. When Joseph David Emerson tried to shut down the engines on the Alaska Airlines plane, there were 80 passengers and four crew members on the flight. Now, Emerson is charged with 83 counts of attempted murder, and he's also facing 83 counts of reckless endangerment, a misdemeanor, and one felony count of endangering an aircraft, according to the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office. Meanwhile, the United States Attorney's Office, District of Oregon, announced that Emerson has been charged in federal court with one count of interfering with flight crew members and attendants. As he should be, Timothai is gaffing, joining us from

the San Francisco Chronicle. What happens next? Has he already bonded out? Is he at home boiling up some more mushrooms? Yeah, he appeared for his arraignment yesterday in state court there in Oregon. It was pretty quick court appearance. Basically, the judge said that he will have a bail hearing within five days where he can ask to be released out of custody or a bail set. But for now, he's in custody and he will have future court hearings coming up to determine if he will remain there. I hate it for him and his family. But what I hate more is the near fatality of over 80 people trapped at 31,000 feet.

We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart podcast.