Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - POISON PLOT: DID CHEATING HUBBY POISON WIFE & DAUGHTER, 10, WITH EYE DROPS FOR $250K LIFE INSURANCE?

Episode Date: August 13, 2024

When Stacy Hunsucker died, it was initially believed the mother of two had suffered a heart attack. She had a history of heart issues and used a pacemaker after being hospitalized following the birth of her second daughter. Just two days after her death, her husband, Joshua Hunsucker, began the process of filing for Stacy’s life insurance benefits and started a relationship with a co-worker less than a month after the funeral. Within six months, his new girlfriend moved into the family home. Stacy Hunsucker’s mother found the situation highly suspicious, as did the North Carolina Department of Insurance, which had paid out the life insurance. Joshua Hunsucker refused an autopsy for his wife, telling doctors he couldn’t bear the thought of her being cut open, and had Stacy’s body cremated. The NCDI later discovered that Stacy was an organ donor and that a vial of her blood had been stored. Tests on the blood revealed Stacy had a lethal amount of tetrahydrozoline, the active ingredient in eye drops, in her bloodstream at the time of her death. Once this was determined, the findings were turned over to the Gaston County Sheriff’s Office. Fifteen months after Stacy Hunsucker’s death, Joshua Hunsucker was arrested and charged with first-degree murder. While out on bail, Joshua Hunsucker rushed his 10-year-old daughter to the hospital with alarming symptoms, including low blood pressure, a low heart rate, extreme exhaustion, and constricted blood vessels. Doctors at CaroMont Regional Medical Center were stumped, and the girl was transferred to Levine Children’s Hospital. There, a urine test revealed she had a large amount of THZ, the same drug that killed her mother, in her system. The tests also found traces of an antidepressant found in Joshua Hunsucker’s car. Joshua Hunsucker has now been arrested on eight new felony charges: four counts each of witness intimidation and obstruction of justice. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Mark Peper - Criminal Defense Attorney, The Pepper Law Firm; X: @PeperLawFirm Dr. Shari Schwartz – Forensic Psychologist (Specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy); Author: “Criminal Behavior” and “Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology;” X: @TrialDoc” Ron Bateman – Sheriff (Former Homicide and Undercover Narcotics) & Author: “Silent Blue Tears: Voice of The Victims;” Twitter: Ronbatemanbooks Dr. William Morrone – Chief Medical Examiner, Bay County Michigan; Author: “American Narcan: Naloxone & Heroin-Fentanyl Associated Mortality” Derek Dellinger - Anchor / Reporter at Queen City News; IG & X: @derekdlnger  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A poison plot? Did a cheating paramedic poison his wife and his little daughter, just 10 years old, with eye drops? Motive? A nearly quarter million dollar life insurance payout.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. A paramedic comes home from a walk to find his wife slumped over the side of their couch. Then he says he was working on the computer when he noticed her slumped over. Why the changing stories?

Yes, I believe I would notice exactly when I observed my husband slumped over. Guys, with me, an all-star panel. But first, I want to go straight out to investigative reporter with Queen City News, GC News dot com, Derek Dellinger. Derek, thank you for being with us. OK, I want to take this very, very slowly so I can make sure I understand the facts. The day that the wife was observed slumping over and I'm talking about 32 year old Stacy Hunsucker. Explain to me what happened leading up to the 911 call. Well, what happened leading up to the 911 call is something that we've been working on at least

over the last several years with this case. What we can tell you though is that- Excuse me, Derek. Excuse me. Excuse me. Yes. Derek. Yes. Derek. Yes. You know, when I put people on the witness stand and I ask a direct question, I expect a direct answer. But let me understand what you just said. Is it not clear? And you've been investigating this for some time. Is it not clear what led up to the husband seeing the wife, Stacy, slumped over. Because, you know, in my world, I say, hey, when did you see your wife slumped over? And the husband would say,

right when I got back from jogging, I saw her. So even now the water is muddy. Okay. All right. Start at the top again. I'm sorry. I just had to understand that we don't really know. I've got a problem with that. Go ahead. That's something that we've still been trying to figure out over the last five or six years associated with this case. The thing about it is, though, is that we know at least leading up to some of what was happening here, that there was some sort of heart issue that Stacey Hunsucker had. The heart issue still unclear as to what exactly was going on. We know that she was having some issues trying to get around. She was having some

lightheadedness, but the fact that she was found slumped over there was a sign of something that was going wrong. And that eventually led to her eventual death as a result, at least at the time, it was considered the death of a heart attack. Hold on with me right now, a renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, opioid treatment expert. He's the author of American Narcan, and he's certainly put his money where his mouth is creating a mobile unit to travel the country fighting opioid addiction. I'm talking about none other than Dr. William Maroney. Dr. Maroney, thank you for joining us in between all the autopsies and other work you're doing. Dr. Maroney, I understand from my own investigation that Stacey had developed some sort of a heart issue, I've been told, after the birth of one

of her daughters. What could that have been? Because it had not manifested prior to delivering one of the daughters. If it was real, if it was real pathology, it could have been an atrial fibrillation. That's irregular, irregular, irregular heartbeats. Or it could have been anything that caused her to lose consciousness that lowered her blood pressure if it was natural but if she was poisoned then it's the medicine or the drug that made her feel this way and eventually the drug gave her the heart attack and that's what everybody's really focused on here is that this man poisoned her. So can you tell the difference between a poisoned heart or heart attack or some manifestation after birth? The most common thing after birth is some women have thyroid problems because the thyroid explodes and kicks in and it gets on steroids and it grows to compensate for the birth of the baby.

And then after the delivery, the thyroid has to shrink. The thyroid is in control of the heart. Dr. Maroney, wait a minute. You've just told me so many things I don't know. I didn't know. That happens every time I talk to you. So you just said the thyroid controls the heart. Did you just say that? very common before 40 years old that women that have multiple babies have thyroid problems. And we can see that maybe 20 percent, 25 percent. But there's underlying pathology in the heart

that you can say, well, her mother had this problem. Her aunt had this problem. Her sister. So, you know, it's coming. So it's really not a surprise. Dr. Maroney, I'm seeing a picture of her, this beautiful young bride, just 32 years old, two gorgeous daughters, Piper and Willow. She's 32. She was running a race. How does she have a heart problem? And she's an athlete. You know, OK, I'm having a horrible flashback to everybody knows about cult mom Lori Vallow and the so-called prophet husband of hers, Chad Daybell.

His wife, who was healthy as a horse, would run marathons, you name it, and then killed over in the middle of the night from what? A heart attack? OK, this is giving me deja vu. but Tammy Daybell is for another day. Let me get back to Stacey Hunsucker. So you're saying, Dr. William Maroney, that it could be a heart problem that often occurs when women give birth and it affects their thyroid. Thyroid controls heart. But let me ask you, this is a yes, no, Dr. William Maroney. If she had been administered some type of poison, you are saying that that poison could have also caused a heart attack. That's a yes, no. Yes, they look the same. Exactly. I knew you couldn't do it

in one word. Okay. But what you just said, absolutely correct. It looks just the same. Guys, you're hearing Dr. William Maroney joining us, medical examiner and toxicologist, Okay, but what you just said, absolutely correct. It looks just the same. Guys, you're hearing Dr. William Maroney joining us, medical examiner and toxicologist, pathologist as well. Listen to this. Joshua Hunsucker calls 911 when he finds his wife, Stacy, unconscious, slumped over the arm of their couch. Even though the 32-year-old is rushed to the hospital, Stacey dies of what looks like a heart attack. Stacey Hunsucker did have a history of heart issues and used a pacemaker since she was hospitalized after the birth of their second daughter. Does that shed any light on it, Dr. William Maroney, the fact that she was using a pacemaker since the birth of the second daughter?

Yes, that goes exactly to what I said about the irregular, irregular heartbeats. That's very, very specific for a heart condition that we call atrial fibrillation flutter. And that means the heart is not pumping in sequence so that it puts pressure and oxygen in the rest of the body. Atrial fibrillation means the heart shakes and it quivers and it doesn't deliver physiologically appropriate beats and pressure. Atrial fibrillation is corrected with a pacemaker. Is atrial fibrillation the same as defib? Defib is what you do to take people out of atrial fibrillation the same as defib? Defib is what you do to take people out of atrial fibrillation. That's the one-time shock. But atrial fibrillation is the pathological condition.

And sometimes after delivery, because of thyroid, the heart just starts the irregular, irregular beating. And it's always called irregular, irregular because there's no pattern. That's why they need a pacemaker. A pacemaker puts the heart back in rhythm so it can pump blood pressure and oxygen. This is exactly what happens after birth in 25, maybe 30 percent of females. But then they don't all get so bad. They need pacemakers, a pacemaker and an attractive, strong woman in her 30s is almost unheard of. To Derek Dellinger joining us out of Charlotte, North Carolina, investigative reporter and anchor at Queen City News. Question, Derek, I'm very curious as to the husband's behavior at the memorial.

Do we know anything about that? Well, for lack of better words, we do know he was somewhat emotional. However, the family did note that things seemed a little bit weird. And they noticed, especially right after or right around that time of the memorial service, he seemed to be moving on and rather moving on rather quick. So when you say weird, you know what? To Mark Pepper, joining us, veteran trial lawyer, criminal defense attorney at the Pepper Law Firm in Charleston. Mark, thank you for being with us. You know what? I really can't put that up as evidence.

It gives me nothing. He was weird. You could say that about, oh, I don't know, 50% of the population. Everyone thinks everybody is weird except themselves. So he may have acted weirdly at the memorial, but that's nothing hard. No, because being weird at a memorial is not a crime or evidence of having committed a crime. It's nothing more than going through an emotional stage in your life where, heaven forbid, your wife, mother of your children, has just been found by you.

I love the way that you're so confident in your answer, just as you are in court. Now I know why you win so many cases. But did you hear Derek Dellinger from QCnews.com state earlier that he was kind of confused the the husband, about how he found his wife dead. First, he was coming in, correct me if I'm wrong, Derek Delliger, coming in from jogging when he saw her slumped over the sofa. And I'm curious, how was she slumped over? Was she sitting there slumped over by the side or was she falling over the sofa? And then later he said, Mark Pepper, that he was working on his computer and went, oh, my stars. My wife slumped over on the sofa.

I mean, I think I would remember that. Now I'm getting some evidence. Although I think my expert at trial would say that when you go through a traumatic situation such as he did, you misremember things often. Perhaps he did go for a jog, came back, started on his computer, and then noticed his wife. Did you say misremember? Of course. People misremember things all the time. I'm sure you have. Is that actually a word? Misremember. It is today. It is today. It is in Mark Pepperland. Okay. You get multiple statements. You know, was it right, consecutive and sequential order that he went for a jog?

Then he found her. Or did he go for a jog and then check his email and then he found her? Does it really matter? The bottom line is that he found her. It matters to me. But that said, it matters to me. Would it matter to a jury? Okay. I understand you and your pretend expert that's going to get on the stand and say,

yeah, people change their stories all the time when their wives die. Yeah, I don't believe that. Your expert may say that, and you may have to pay that expert a lot of money to say that. But people on the jury may not believe that. But I give you an A+, because obviously you're doing something right in the courtroom. What more do we know about this couple? Listen to investigative reporter Drew Nelson. By their eighth wedding anniversary, high school sweethearts Stacey and Joshua Hunsucker share two young daughters, Willow and Piper. The couple seems happy with their life in Mount Holly, North Carolina. Stacey works as a paralegal and

Joshua is the lead paramedic at Atrium Health's MedCenter Air Unit. They're also close to Stacey's parents, John and Susie Robinson, who are always willing to babysit. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. great. As in so many other cases we have observed, friends and co-workers become suspicious. Listen. Friends and co-workers comment that Joshua Hunsucker seems largely unaffected by his wife's death. Hunsucker begins the process of filing for Stacey's life insurance benefits just two days after her death and starts a relationship with a co-worker less than a month after the funeral. Within six months, Hunsucker's new girlfriend moves into the family home. Okay, can we just get real for a moment? I don't know. That was

investigative reporter Jackie Howard speaking to Dr. Sherry Schwartz. Let's analyze what we just heard. There's such a thing as putting perfume on the pig. You ever heard that, Dr. Sherry? Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist specializing in capital mitigation victim advocacy at PantherMitigation.com. She's the author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, hold on. Did you hear what the reporter said? Hunsucker begins the process of filing for Stacy's life insurance just two days after her death.

Okay. Here's the problem that, here's the part that disturbs me and starts a relationship with a coworker less than a month after the funeral. Now, right there, I don't think we're talking about a pen pal. I think we're talking about a sex relationship. So as our expert Mark Pepper will tell you there's all sorts of you know psychological behavior following the death of your spouse. But starting a sex affair I don't think that's part of one of the stages of grieving. Well, I mean, in some respects it could be, but when you look at the aggregation of the behavior, so he's applying within 48 hours, it sounds like for insurance money. And then he's moving on with the relationship. This seems to be somebody who's moving on really quickly from the sudden shocking death of his wife and he

has two little children to worry about as well it just seems like he's very focused on getting to the next stage of his life Derek Dillinger joining me investigative reporter at Queen City News can we talk about the as it was stated relationship with a co-worker I have reason to suspect the relationship with the co-worker started before his wife died. What do you know? From what we know, it did. The relationship sometime around, not really sincerely sure about the length of the relationship, but apparently it did start before Stacia died. Okay. What do you mean? What indication do I have? He was having an affair. What if any? And all the wife's girlfriends speculating is not evidence. What evidence is there that there

was an extramarital affair during the wife's life? Nothing has been revealed so far about that specifically. Okay. So I've got to rule that out. I don't know any hard evidence about an affair. I just know speculation. Now, author of a crime trilogy, Silent Blue Tears. Ron, thank you for being with us. Yes, ma'am. So when you heard Dr. William Maroney speaking about COD, cause of death, that's what investigators have to focus on. They don't have anything else yet. Would just immediately filing for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars life insurance policy within 48 hours with that wave a red flag? What else would it take for you to become suspicious?

That's huge. Red flag. Huge. There's a grieving process that takes place, as you know, and you don't get over that that quick. And I would definitely be interested in interviewing this girlfriend. And to answer your question earlier about evidence, you know, I would be boots on the ground. I would be checking his credit card, his phone records, checking local hotels, motels, see if I have him staying there overnight or a couple nights with this lady. And I would definitely be interested in talking with her because there may be some bedroom talk. You know, they may be in this together.

This could be a conspiracy. It wasn't just co-workers that became concerned. Listen. Stacey Hunsucker's mom, Susie Robinson, cannot seem to find closure concerning her daughter's death. She finds it odd that Joshua Hunsucker, a paramedic with plenty of experience in emergency situations, can't seem to remember what he was doing before he found Stacey unconscious. Robinson also discovers Hunsucker's new girlfriend may have been seeing

him before her daughter's death. Okay, so is it still just speculation? Is it real? Was there an affair going on prior to Stacey's death? And if there was that relationship, that sex relationship going on, then that still doesn't prove that she's murdered. Let me ask you very quickly to Derek Dillinger. I had mentioned the memorial and whether the husband acted oddly at the memorial. It wasn't a funeral. Was she cremated? She was cremated. To Dr. William Maroney, joining us for now medical examiner. Dr. Maroney, once a body is cremated. To Dr. William Maroney joining us, we're now a medical examiner. Dr. Maroney, once a body is cremated, is there any way to somehow extract DNA for the body? Absolutely not. It's gone. It's done. It's ashes. And the fact that they didn't do an autopsy is suspicious,

even if she had heart issues, because that means your medical examiner is some kind of fossil. He's a dinosaur. He's living off of past, and he's not curious, and he's not interested in the truth. Ashes give you ashes. It's a box. It's as big as a box of Cheerios. There's nothing you can do with it. So let me understand.

Is it true to our legal experts? Is it true that the next of kin, not necessarily blood relative, but it would be the husband, that's the one that decides unless the state orders an autopsy? It would be the husband in this case to decide we're not having an autopsy. He, quote, didn't want to see her cut up. So he gets to decide to decide if his wife has an autopsy mark. That's exactly right. And his vote is the only vote that is considered by the pathologist at the coroner's office. He is the next of kin. He gets to determine what happens to the body. In this case, he chose to cremate his wife. Okay. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, you and I covered together.

I mentioned him earlier, the prophet Chad Daybell. When his wife, Tammy Daybell, died suddenly in her sleep, remember the one that ran marathons? He did not want her, quote, cut up and refused an autopsy. She had to be exhumed under court order. And it was then determined that she died of asphyxiation. So I'm concerned when someone doesn't want to find out why their spouse died and races practically sprints to the crematorium. I agree with you, Nancy. This is a significant consideration when making a determination about whether or not somebody could be implicated in the death of another person, particularly their loved one. This woman

was very, very young. And while she had a heart condition, it appears after the birth of her second daughter, still he's a paramedic. It's very concerning to me that he wasn't wanting to know exactly what caused her death, what was missed, what could happen that would cause the death of such a young, otherwise healthy woman. As investigators begin to suspect that his wife's death was not natural, Joshua Hunsucker's behavior becomes erratic. During a night shift with Atrium Health in their helicopter unit, Hunsucker sets a syringe pump on fire. The pilot is forced into an emergency landing in a car dealership parking lot. While no one is injured, Atrium Health begins an investigation into the incident. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. I feel like I'm in another case. To you, Derek Dellinger, joining us, Queen City News. So after his wife dies of natural causes, this guy who is a paramedic

starts a fire in a helicopter while it's in the air, like a life flight helicopter. Did I hear that? Yes, it was charged with some wrongdoing, specifically with that fire. So the pilot is forced into an emergency landing in a car dealership parking lot. Nobody is injured, but HM Health starts an investigation into the incident. You know, how many times, Ron Bateman, former sheriff, former homicide detective, undercover narcotics at ronbatemanbooks.com. Ron, how many times has a defendant, a suspect, been going along under the radar when they do something really stupid and they get nabbed on that? And then the entire plot unfolds. Like, why in the world would you start, I believe he said, like some syringe pump on fire up in a helicopter?

Idiot. That's crazy. It sounds like self-destructive behavior to me. But also, you know what you said, people do that all the time. They make something stupid mistake, which allows their DNA to be taken or their fingerprints to be taken when they weren't otherwise on file. And then, bam, they're in a they're in a system. They're identified for other crimes. It happens all the time. Let's face it.

They're not the smartest tools in the sharpest tools in the shed. Okay, guys, because of his crazy stunt in a helicopter, and I'm wondering if somehow this paramedic hubby, paramedic cheating hubby, according to sources, was trying to take focus off his wife's death and somehow come out the hero. I'm just wondering his motivation for lighting a syringe pump on fire in a flying helicopter? Okay, that opened up a Pandora's box. Atrium Health, where he worked, started an investigation of that. Now listen. The NCDI discovers Stacey is an organ donor and a vial of her blood has been stored. Tests on the blood reveal that Stacey has a lethal amount of tetrahydrozoline, the active ingredient in eye drops, in her bloodstream at the time of her death.

Okay, after the stunt in the helicopter, everyone's suspicions reach a boiling point. Now, remember, Derek Dillinger, isn't this correct? The husband demanded a cremation immediately. He did not want his wife cut up on autopsy. So she's cremated. You heard Dr. Maroney state there's no way to get tissue, blood, any DNA once someone is being cremated. But then they remember she's an organ donor. So what happens then? What happens then?

Okay, so there is a vial of her blood as a result of her being an organ donor. So what happens then? What happens then? Okay. So there is a vial of her blood as a result of her being an organ donor. That is what is tested. And it's found to have this lethal dose of basically the active ingredient in eye drops. If you know, if you put it in eye drops, eye drops in your eye will help with the redness in your eyes. But however, if you ingest it, that can cause some issues with the heart and also issues with your energy. It can be lethal at the right of the moment. To Dr. William Maroney, a renowned toxicologist, explain to me what he just said. Are you saying that if I drink Visine, it could shake the blood vessels around my heart? Yes. And it's lethal enough that if you did a couple tablespoons, you would lose consciousness.

You would be dizzy. You would lose blood pressure. It would slow your heart and you'd stop breathing. And if you did enough, it would make you look like you had a heart attack. What do we know about this substance, this seemingly toxic substance in eye drops? As you heard Dr. Maroney say, it's okay for your eyes, not okay for the rest of your body. Listen. This is not something we would normally go in looking for.

And the half-life, what they refer to as the half-life of the drug, is very short. It only lasts about six hours in the system. So you have to look to other symptomology and then dig back in and see what is this consistent with. So it requires quite a bit of medical detective work. So let me understand this, Dr. Maroney, when you become an organ donor at the time of your death, your organs are harvested. It's a nice way to say it, taken out of your body. So effect she Stacy was cut up as the husband said anyway to harvest her organs luckily during that process a vial of her bodily fluids I guess blood was maintained so from that one vial Dr.oney, it could be determined that she had the active ingredient of eye drops

in her blood? Yes. And they save the blood for purposes of answering questions after the body's buried or cremated. If somebody comes up and says, hey, the donor got hepatitis C, the donor got hepatitis B, the donor got a viral disease, they can go back and look at the blood and see if we screened that, did that, the person that got file a wrongful death lawsuit against their former son-in-law, hoping to gather what remains of Stacey's life insurance benefits to save for her children. The Robinsons accuse Hunsucker of using the $250,000 to fund a lavish lifestyle, including extravagant vacations with his new girlfriend and a $100,000 boat. The Robinsons also seek an additional $25,000 in damages as they claim Stacey's death was caused by Hunsucker's willful, intentional, and malicious conduct. Derek Dillinger, let me understand this. Her, Stacey's parents, sue him, the husband, for wrongful

death when they notice his, quote, lavish spending, a $100,000 boat, extravagant vacations with a new girlfriend. Why is it, Derek, that men pinch the pennies during the marriage and when they get a hot girlfriend, man, they spend it all? Well, he was free. At least he felt like he was free to do what he wanted to and do as he pleased. This is despite the fact that, I mean, he still had two daughters to take care of, but he apparently was going about his life and going about his life as if he lived life anew, at least before he was arrested. And then another bizarre incident. Listen.

Joshua Hunsucker calls 911 claiming he was attacked while changing a flat tire. On the scene, Hunsucker tells Mount Holly cops he was changing a tire when a man pistol whipped him several times in the head, bound his hands with a zip tie, then injected him with an unknown substance. Hunsucker claims he knows his attacker, former father-in-law John Robinson. Investigators find no evidence supporting Hunsucker's claims and determine he likely staged the attack. During the investigation, cops find an unmarked bag containing pills usually prescribed for depression in adults. OK, let me understand this, Derek Jellinger.

OK, so the wife is dead. The helicopter incident occurs. It's like you remember Alex Murdoch out of South Carolina who staged an event where he claimed someone attacked him and that really opened up a whole nother can of worms. So let me understand. Now this guy to get back at his in-laws who filed a wrongful death lawsuit against him, he now claims they attacked him? Yes. And specifically his former father-in-law. His former father-in-law is the target of not only that, but several other incidents. He's apparently trying to deflect blame away from what happened to Stacey and also the care for his kids away from his ex-father-in-law, away from him and more towards his ex-father. You know, again, the flat tire story rears its ugly head. Listen to this. Were you shot? Yes. I can't drive. Okay. I'm bleeding a lot. Where's part of your body? Uh, I'm not sure. Somewhere on my head. Your head? Somebody just stop for me, ma'am.

Okay. That was Alex Murdoch using the same tired story that all this happens when these fully athletic grown men are changing a tire and then an unknown assailant attacks them same thing here with hunsucker except he says his father-in-law his father-in-law i guess up in his 60s or 70s attacks him while he's changing a flat tire uh derrick i don't know if you recall in alex murdoch's case his lawyer came out and said he had like traumatic brain injury or some BS like that. He showed up in court with a Band-Aid on his head. Okay.

Were there any injuries pursuant to Hunsucker's attack on the side of the road? From what I recall, there may have been a bruise. But other than that, there was no real sign and no real sign of any struggle that had happened. You know what, Derek? I would absolutely check the blue eye shadow in his wife's cosmetic bag to find out if that's what the bruise was. One more thing, Derek. You got to hear this. Listen. Weeks after the alleged kidnapping and assault, Joshua Hunsucker rushes his 10-year-old daughter to the hospital with concerning symptoms. The girl has low blood pressure, a low heart rate, extreme exhaustion, and constricted

blood vessels. Doctors at Carrowmount Hospital are stumped, and the girl is transported to Levine's Children's Hospital. There, a urine test reveals she has a large amount of THZ, the same drug that killed her mother, in her system. The test also revealed traces of the antidepressant found in Joshua Hunsucker's car. Dr. William Maroney, not just renowned toxicologist and medical examiner, but devoted father. Maroney, did you hear what the reporter just said? Weeks after the claim his father-in-law attacked him on the side of the road, he rushes his 10-year-old little girl, 10 years old, to the hospital. And guess what?

With low blood pressure, low heart rate, exhaustion, constricted blood vessels, they determined from a urine test her blood is full of THZ found in eye drops. Help me, Dr. Maroney. First his wife, now his daughter? He's got the exact same symptoms.

And what he would say is, oh, well, genetically, he's like her mother. She has these problems. No, she's like her mother because you're poisoning her. That is exactly what's happening. It's the same symptoms. Okay, guys,

if this is true, if these are all just allegations, nobody's been proven guilty yet. If this is true, is Hunsucker what we call a family annihilator, it brings to mind Chris Watts. Listen. He reads me books. He ties my shoes. If you're a hero, blue and blue, my daddy, daddy, I love you. Chris Watts is cheating on his pregnant wife. And during an argument about divorce, Watts strangles Shanann. Their four-year-old daughter, Bella, wakes up and sees her dad and mom. Watts tells Bella, Mommy's sick, and puts her back to bed. Watts loads Shane-Anne's body into the bed of his truck, and with Bella and three-year-old Celeste in the backseat without their car seats,

he takes his family to the oil tankers where he works. Smothering his daughters to death, he squeezes them through an eight-inch hatch in the oil tank and drops his wife into a shallow grave 100 yards from the oil tank and drops his wife into a shallow grave 100 yards from the oil tankers and covers it with dirt. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To forensic psychologist Dr. Sherry Schwartz, what is a family annihilator? A family annihilator, Nancy, is somebody who basically plans to and executes everybody in the family. This is somebody who we find is generally high in psychopathy. They have no conscience. They lack empathy.

And they see their family as in their way to leading their best life. To Mark Pepper joining us, a veteran trial lawyer at the Pepper Law Firm in Charleston. Mark, you've dealt with so many defendants, and I'm not asking you to give up attorney-client privileges, but have you ever dealt as a lawyer with a client that seemingly had no emotion, that didn't seem to feel anything? For instance, a sociopath that doesn't really understand other people's suffering? It's more common than you would think, Nancy, and I suspect that your viewers would understand. The criminal mind is different, as your experts, I'm sure, will elaborate on later. There are reasons people do things that you and I can't understand,

yet they somehow are able to justify it to themselves. They have no empathy whatsoever. They have no sympathy whatsoever. There is no responsibility whatsoever. It is solely about that individual. And if that means moving his own family or her family out of the way to accomplish his own means, we see that quite often in the criminal world that we live in. That is a typical behavior that this pattern is starting to reveal here by Mr. Hunsucker. What investigators first responded to appeared to be a natural death. They found Stephen Clayton at the bottom of the staircase in their million-dollar home. And his wife, Lana, said that he had been sick for the last few days, suffered from vertigo. So it appeared to be a rather natural death. Well, according to investigators, they believe she was motivated by money.

Stephen Clayton had a successful business in health rehabilitation. They believe his house was worth about $1.2 million, his property, and then another million worth of assets. He did not have any children. And a few weeks after his death, our news partners at the Herald report that she filed to become a beneficiary to his estate. We're talking about Lana Clayton, the wife in that case, husband Stephen Clayton, dead at the foot of the stairs. Joining me right now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Sydney Summer. Sydney, thank you for being with us. The connection, if any, the Clayton death, was that by THC?

That is correct. Yes. Okay. What, if anything, does that have to do with the Hunsucker death by I-Drop? Well, Nancy, this was just a few months before Stacey Hunsucker died. So people believe that this was a copycat murder. Joshua Hunsucker got this idea from Lana Clayton and Lana Clayton almost got away with it because her husband was very adverse to Western medicine. He wouldn't even get his blood drawn in a doctor. So we believe that Clayton probably tried to poison her husband several times. But it is possible that Joshua Hunsucker saw this case in the news and took a page out of Lana Clayton's book. Wow. OK, Dr. William Maroney joining us, medical examiner, author, toxicologist. Did you hear what Cindy Sumner just said? In that case, the husband, Stephen Clayton, was, quote, adverse to Western medicine and

wouldn't even get his blood drawn. OK, that was perfectly set up for this type of poisoning because he didn't want any of his blood done. He wouldn't have prior doctor's visits. In this case, we don't have an autopsy because the husband doesn't want it. We're not getting the correct medical findings. I'm curious. I'm curious.

When you poison someone with this particular substance, tetrahydroxaline, what does it taste like? Because I think the wife got it in water. She didn't taste it? Tetra-Tri's Hydrazoline is a little basic. You know, sometimes things are acidic or they're basic, but it's colorless. It's relatively tasteless. It might taste a little bit like salt, but the idea is you need very little. It's in the body a long time. And we don't know if he was poisoning her for months, day after day, or just a huge dose because we can't tell.

But it would taste just a little bit like salt. And it's clear. That's how you get away with it. Wow. Guys, again, no one has been found guilty in this case and we wait as justice unfolds. Thank you to all of our guests to help us understand this very complicated yet so simple case. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.