Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Police Identify Body as Missing Mom Rachel Morin

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

Police say the body found along a hiking trail is missing mom Rachel Morin. The 37-year-old was last seen heading to the Ma & Pa Trail at around 6 p.m. on Saturday evening. Her boyfriend  Richard Tobin, reported her missing when she did not return home. The body was found Sunday at 1 p.m. Morin’s vehicle was found in the parking of the popular walking route. Her body was found by a family friend during a search. Police say currently, there are no suspects.   Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Matthew Mangino– Attorney, Former District Attorney (Lawrence County); Author: “The Executioner’s Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States” Caryn Stark – Psychologist- Trauma and Crime Expert; Twitter: @carnpsych Ron Bateman - Sheriff (Former Homicide and Undercover Narcotics) & Author: "Silent Blue Tears: Voice of The Victims;" Twitter: Ronbatemanbooks  Dr. Tim Gallagher – Medical Examiner State of Florida; Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine; Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference Vincent Hill - Anchor/Reporter for FOX 45 in Baltimore & Former Police Officer and Private Investigator; Author: “Playbook To A Murder”, Twitter & IG: @VincentHillTV  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous mom heads out to a local hiking trail. She's never seen alive again. At this hour, family distraught. As police confirm, the body of Rachel Morin has been found. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

Take a listen to our friends at WJZ. The sheriff said the community came together to search for 37-year-old Rachel Morin when she was reported missing. Now he's asking the community to help find the person responsible for her death. You're very eerie. I have a goosebumps. A quiet popular trail in Hartford County, now at the center of a homicide investigation that startled the entire community. They set up a command center here, so we figured that it was something rather grave that had happened to that poor woman. Just after 1 p.m. Sunday, someone called them, saying they found a body off the trail well we firmly believe uh this is the body of rachel um more in that final determination that final um say belongs with the medical examiner and that has not happened yet the sheriff says investigators have no doubt

that this is a homicide guys you are also hearing our friends at WBAL with me, an all-star panel. To make sense of what we know right now, before we go one step further, let me go straight out to Vincent Hill, anchor reporter for Fox 45 in Baltimore, former police officer and private investigator, and author of a hit book, Playbook to a Murder on Amazon. Vincent, thank you for being with us. We are hearing that the police are confirming this is in fact 37-year-old Rachel Morin, mother. She is absolutely gorgeous, by all accounts, beautiful on the inside and out. But I'm interested, since the medical examiner has not yet confirmed her death, I'm curious, are they identifying her by her clothing, tattoo, dental records?

Was her face still recognizable? How have they identified her if the medical examiner has not given a firm official identification well nancy that's the million dollar question sheriff gaylor said to me on sunday that they are convinced it's a homicide they are convinced it's her and he also went into how physical and how brutal that crime scene may have been, she was actually found inside a tunnel under the Ma and Pa Trail. So something has tipped investigators to believe that that is actually the mother, Rachel Morin. You know, I'm very curious about how they're doing it, how they're making this identification.

To Dr. Tim Gallagher joining me, renowned medical examiner for the state of Florida. You can find him at PathCareMed.com. Lecturer, University of Florida Medical School, Forensic Medicine. And founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Dr. Gallagher, before there was DNA, IDs were made routinely. And fairly quickly. Based on what, Dr. Gallagher? Well, there were other methods of identifying people. One of them were dental records.

And of course, you know, before DNA, there were a lot of identifications made. There were also a lot of mistakes made. So DNA has certainly tightened up that area of identification. But fingerprints are also a good method of identification. If she is not decomposed, we can get fingerprints, and there's something called a rapid ID. If her fingerprints are on file, we can do fingerprints, send it through the rapid ID, which goes through APHIS, and then we will be able to identify her that way. Certainly tattoos would also come into effect if she has any medical devices that are on her, any types of identification such as a pacemaker or other medical devices, perhaps a breast implant.

In her case, we can follow the serial numbers on those and then make identification that way. So there are very many avenues, dental, fingerprints, unique body features if DNA is not available. As well as clothing. Yeah, clothing, yes, Nancy, but that's also fraught with its downside too. Problems. Right. So there are a lot of clothing that are very similar. But that certainly is a secondary form of identification that we can use.

But you have to ask yourself, joining me, Ron Bateman, former sheriff, Arendelle County, Maryland, former homicide and undercover narcotics officer, author of Silent Blue Tears, Voice of the Victims. Ron, let's just get real for a minute. I believe I saw the population of Bel Air, which is about a 30-minute drive from Baltimore, is 10,661, as I recall. She goes hiking on this trail, the Ma and Pa Trail. A body is found of a blonde female on this trail, the Ma and Pa Trail. Who else is it going to be?

Well, I can tell you that Shailiff Gaylor, who I know very well, would not stick his neck out and say it was someone else if it was in fact Rachel. So I'm sure he has beyond convincing evidence to say in his mind that he feels confident that it is Rachel. Speaking of, take a listen to what we are hearing from our friends at WMAR2. The Bel Air community is now mourning the death of 37-year-old Rachel Morin after her body was found on Ma and Pa Trail Sunday afternoon. Something like this should not happen in Harvard County. Officers say Rachel Morin left her home around 6 p.m. Saturday and went over to the Ma and Pa Trail. Around 11 p.m., officers say her boyfriend reported her missing, which is when a search began for Rachel. Just after 1 p.m. Sunday afternoon,

police got a call saying a woman's body was found on the same trail. Body found on the same trail. And you hear them narrowing down the likelihood of suspects, but we don't know that. And also, we're getting a glimpse into the manner of death. Take a listen to our cut 18. This is Sheriff Jeffrey Geller. While it was all of our hope, certainly mine and everyone standing up here with me, and the men and women of our office and all of our citizens, that Rachel will be found safe at about 107 p.m. A citizen called 911 to report a female's body had been located off the trail. At that time, it was obvious that this person was deceased.

The investigation went from a missing person investigation to a homicide investigation. Guys, I want to focus on two words we just heard from the elected sheriff. Quote, it was obvious the person was deceased. It immediately goes from missing person to homicide. So very clearly, Vincent Hill, this was a violent homicide. Quote, obvious the person was deceased and the victim of homicide. No doubt that there was a suicide. No doubt that there wasn't a natural cause of death like heat exhaustion or something akin to that. So Vincent Hill, you were there covering the case when the body was found. What more can you tell us about this Ma and Pa trail and anything else you know about the discovery of this female body we believe to be Rachel Morin. Yeah Nancy so the

trail was kind of in the middle of nowhere in Hartford County and of course when you're talking about jogging and hiking trails there's not a lot of cameras but there are a lot of people. Now keep in mind the boyfriend said she went missing or she went to the trail around six o'clock. Six p.m. Yeah correct and around 107 Sunday afternoon a female found Rachel's body under a tunnel that goes under the Montauk Trail near Highway 24. And when I pressed the sheriff, sheriff, you've used the word homicide. How do we know this was not an accident? He touched on the physicality of Rachel's body when it was found. So that tells you something gruesome happened.

Okay, when you say Vincent Hill, he touched, he, the sheriff, the elected sheriff, touched on the, quote, physicality. What do you mean by that, by the physicality? You mean the condition of the body when discovered? Is that what you're saying? Right, the sheriff said, well, I won't tell you how investigators found her physically but we have no doubt that this is a homicide his words crime stories with nancy grace i want to go to Matthew Mangino, guys.

Former prosecutor, former district attorney in Pennsylvania. Author of The Executioner's Toll. Listen to this. The crimes, arrests, trials, appeals, last meals. I would love to read that. And final words. Okay, who cares what they said after they murdered one or many more and they got the death penalty. What? I didn't do it

and executions of 46 persons in the u.s matthew mangino i've got to agree with the sheriff galler and our current former sheriff joining us ron bateman when you see a murder you know it's a murder okay here's a good one you know when you're walking along taking a walk you're walking your dog or whatever and all of a sudden you smell a horrible smell you know you smell dog poop or you know you smell an animal that's been run over it's immediate you know nobody needs to tell you it's like when you find a dead body you know immediately they're dead and you know they've been murdered there's not really a question in many cases well right and and we're talking about you know experienced law enforcement officers who

have you know investigated uh crimes uh like this in the past so they know it when they when they see it and uh unfortunately in this situation um i think her sister said that that she didn't go down uh easy you know so she may have fought for her life uh and and there would be probably consider considerable amount of bruising and in an injury that it would make it apparent by looking at her that she was deceased and was the victim of a homicide. Yeah, you know what? You're right. Isn't that right, Vincent Hill?

Vincent, joining me from Fox 45 Baltimore. Vincent, the sister, Rachel Moran's sister, who, by the way, has created a GoFundMe to pay for the funeral expenses for this mother of five. Three girls, two boys, all very young. No mommy. Let's just let that sink in for a moment. And I've got to have a shrink talk about that. Karen Stark joining me.

But Vincent Hill, Rachel's sister, was very clear that this is Rachel and that she fought for her life. Yeah, Nancy, I mean, the family was notified immediately. So obviously the sheriff's department knew it was Rachel. The family, unfortunately, had to go identify Rachel at some point. So, yeah, she knew it was her sister and she probably has to deal with what happened to her sister. Because Bel Air, you talked about the population, Nancy. I report in Baltimore and surrounding areas, things like this, they just don't happen in Bel Air.

You may have a drunk driver. You may have a domestic violence here and there, but things like this don't happen in Bel Air. You know, that's an interesting statement. You know, Karen Stark joining me, renowned psychologist, TV, radio trauma expert and consultant. You can find her at KarenStark.com and that's Karen with a C. Karen, we want to believe this can't happen in my neighborhood. I mean, at our apartment in New York, I know it can happen if I put one toe

out on the street. In many rural areas, people think this cannot happen. I grew up thinking, well, I wasn't even thinking about crime because it, as we were just hearing, doesn't happen. But no one is immune. And here's my example. I will come up with a new one one day. But the case of Dylan and Shasta Groney in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. If you fly over that, and I have looked down, there's nothing but green. Nothing but it looks like a lot of broccoli. It's completely green. They lived there, and some perv drove by on the interstate and saw Shasta, the girl, I believe it was at an above-ground pool, and went and lay in wait for the family to go to sleep, then killed the whole family and took the boy and girl. Ultimately, after molesting them over and over and over and over, playing these games where you strangle the victim, then you

bring them back to life, and then you do it again. The little boy, Dylan, died and Shasta miraculously was saved. But they literally lived in the middle of a forest. So no one is immune, Karen Stark. No one is immune. And unfortunately, Nancy, we hear about stories where there are females who are jogging. And somehow in that situation, somebody sees them or follows them and they wind up being dead and that's so frightening because you believe that you should be able to go out and do whatever it is that you want to do and that really isn't the case you have to be very cautious and aware of what's around you and unfortunately somebody took advantage of her they really did they i don't know if she was sex assaulted yet or not but if she was or was not either way will give me more

clues as to who the killer was guys speaking of the tunnel seemingly someone had a premonition she would be found in a tunnel now typically if you say you've got a premonition about a murder and it comes true you become a suspect. I don't think that's true in this case. Take a listen to our cut 16 from WMAR. The call came in from Michael Gabbrzeski who says he joined the search after hearing about Rachel's disappearance. He says his daughter was friends with Rachel. He and his daughter and a friend found Rachel's body in a drain. And I kept telling them to search the tunnels because I had a feeling about those tunnels. And I walked forward to search the one tunnel and they searched the one and that's where they found her. Michael says the state they found her body in led him to believe she was murdered.

So we know who found the body. It's Michael Gaberzeski, a friend of the family, and he had a premonition about these tunnels and felt me think of a good example. When we were little and we literally lived in the middle of nowhere on a red dirt road and there was a giant tunnel, a big pipe, really big, like six foot circumference. And we could run under there and run across the road, but under the road. That's a tunnel. Let's say in Central Park, you go under a very short tunnel, maybe 50 feet long, 80 feet. And that could be a tunnel. And it's wide enough for a horse-drawn carriage to go through.

That's a tunnel. What are these tunnels we keep hearing about, Vincent? And that leads me to another line of inquiry that was she killed in daylight hours and someone did it in a tunnel to obscure other people's vision? It stays light there well into the evening now with daylight savings. I mean, a lot can be extrapolated from the location of her being killed in or near the tunnel. So tell me about the tunnels, Vincent. Yeah, you described it best, Nancy. It's one of those tunnels that goes under the highway.

Highway 24 is right there. And from what I've been told by people that live in the area, they shoot a lot of music videos in those tunnels. And around 107, when Michael found the body, his daughter Cecilia actually called 911 to say she was found in one of those tunnels. But what's interesting, the tunnel is not actually close to where her car was found, are close to the entrance of the Montauk Trail.

Okay, hold on just a moment. That's a lot of information. Vincent Hill is joining us from Fox 45 Baltimore. Repeat that really slowly so we can all dissect it. And let me remind everyone, we're in the middle of what I believe to be a murder investigation of a mother of five. So I've got a real brain trust here. Jump in, people. All right?

Okay. Go ahead, Vince, and say that again, because that had a lot of evidentiary issues in what you just said. Yeah, I mean, where Rachel was found in the tunnel is not close to where her car was or close to the entrance of the trail. And the thing about the trail, Nancy, I was there at 10 o'clock Sunday night. It was very dark back there. So anything could have happened. Anyone could have come out of anywhere to take this young lady and do whatever they did to her. Okay. Straight back out to Ron Bateman, former sheriff. What do you think about that? Well, you know, these opportunistic criminals strike at the strangest times. I've worked cases here in my jurisdiction where we had a jogger.

Same thing. She was a jogger in an area where she frequented, so she may have been stalked. But same thing, just a brutal murder out of nowhere, did not know the victim. I've actually handled a case where a body was actually placed in a drainage pipe. It wasn't big like you're describing, Nancy, where you can walk through it. But it's just these opportunistic criminals just blow me away when they just do this out of nowhere for no reason whatsoever. And I wouldn't read too much into this local guy

saying make sure you check the tunnels because if you grew up in the area and you frequented when you were a little kid and you grew up there and you were always in the woods or in the tunnels, I wouldn't draw too much attention to that, though it still would spark my curiosity for sure. Oh, yeah. I put him in the category of A, a great friend of the family.

He goes out. He doesn't just sit around going, oh, no, she's missing. He goes out and tries to find her with his daughter. And I doubt very seriously he'd bring his daughter along if he knew he was going to find a dead body of a family friend. And also, I can never forget Roy Cronk. Do you remember him? He was the guy that found top mom Casey Anthony's daughter, Kelly, and he called police and called police several times for them to come look at what he had found. And then he came under suspicion. He was completely innocent. Speaking of her car, will her car reveal any clues? Take a listen to our

cut seven. During the initial search, again, deputies did locate her vehicle at the Williams Street entrance. The vehicle during the investigation was towed to our CID building up in Forest Hill, where it will be processed for any and all evidence. At this time, at that time, last evening, an extensive search of the trail and surrounding area followed. A notice to the public was put out by this office, by our Office of Media Communications. That has had over 11,000 shares. So what, if anything, can be gained from the car? Everyone on the panel, jump in. I think the first thing I'm going to be doing, Vincent Hill, is looking for any and all video surveillance. At a lot of trailhead parking lots you do have a camera but not the majority the majority of trailheads are out in the wilderness and

there's not going to be a surveillance camera so where do we go from there let me direct everyone to the case of Alex Murdoch when he shot himself or had himself shot in the middle of a rural road there wasn't a surveillance camera there but we said, hey, what about the intersection, the closest intersection? And lo and behold, there is a camera at the church there on the corner where he turned. Who else turned in? Well, the cars had been there an hour before and an hour after. Is there a gate to get access to the trailhead? Think Scott Peterson, the idiot that drove his boat in and had to get a receipt when he dumped Lacey's body. That kind of entrance.

And the guy remembered him. Is there a gateway? What? Jump in, Please help me. So, Nancy, you know, I think not only do we want to look at whether there are cameras directly in the vicinity of that parking lot, but I'd like to see, you know, what video we have of her going there. You know, was she by herself? Yes. You know, was she with somebody else? You know, so that can help in this investigation.

Yes. We know. Jump, Karen Stark. else was you know so that can help in this investigation yes we know jump karen stark how dare you interrupt vincent hill go ahead sorry was that not vincent who was that oh that was mangino okay how dare you interrupt matthew mangino please go ahead um and i wanted to say something along with what he had to say which is it's her boyfriend who reported her missing and her boyfriend who said, I believe that her car was there. How do we know that she actually decided she wanted to go jogging? Maybe he forced her if he was the one that reported her. We don't know that she's the one that drove up there or even that she left her car there.

Karen Stark, you're so right. He was the last one to see her. He was the one to find her car. He was the one to report her missing. So he is going to be looked at very carefully. What? I don't want to speculate, but I will say this. I went to the entrance of that park.

There were no cameras. There are apartments that turn into the trail. There may be ring doorbells there but there's also a brew pub that she would have had to pass to park that car there but i'm going to jump out of reporter anchor mode and go back to cop boat and investigator mode for just a second i'd be interested to learn if her keys were found with her body if not there's a problem and i'd be interested to learn to the position of her driver's, because we can tell by looking at the pictures of Rachel. She's very petite, very short.

And if that seat is pushed forward, maybe she did drive there. But if the seat is back, the one thing I do at six foot one, when I get into a car that someone shorter than me is driving, it's natural for me to slide the seat back so I can actually fit and drive. So I think the car will tell a lot of clues, even if there's no DNA, like just by the positioning of the seat, just by the positioning of the mirrors, because as drivers, even if we just committed a crime, that's something we do naturally. Hey, you know what, Vincent Hill, you're so right. And a seminal case on that is Tara Grinstead, the gorgeous high school teacher that goes missing. I toured her home with her mother. It was perfectly in order, except a lampshade was askew. The bed had a break in it and there were pearls scattered across the floor and her seat. She was one of those people that three years on the car still smells brand new. Nothing is out of place. Doesn't smell like

like McDonald's or hairspray or anything like that. And her car was covered in mud and the seat was pushed back just like Vincent Hill is saying. And don't limit to the trailhead. What about the intersection before it? What about at that brewery? That's a business. That's nearby. Was anybody in the car? Is the car caught on surveillance?

Think about Brian Koberger and the clerk at the 7-Eleven or whatever the convenience store was, who went through reams and reams of convenience store video and sees a white Elantra speeding by. Bam! Brian Koberger, who's awaiting trial in quadruple homicide. Yes, that brewery that you just said. Jump in. I was going to say, someone addressed the ring cameras or various other models of cameras

at front doors. I would be real interested in checking out if there was any cameras at Rachel's house or her ex's house or her boyfriend. Hold on, I've got to write that down. That's a great idea. Home cams to catch her leaving the house. Is anybody with her? You're leaving the house. Also, some future things to see if there's an ex or a boyfriend or a co-worker, you know know having a disagreement on camera at the front door at any of these houses you know you should really consider going into law enforcement former sheriff of arundel county ron bateman yes the home camera

you're darn right oh gosh that's such a good idea and you you addressed it briefly there but state highway administration cameras are all over every intersection in Maryland. And, of course, you have the gas stations, the convenience store cameras. But you've got to canvass that neighborhood because those are the people that use that trail. And I guarantee you there's somebody that's sitting in their house that hasn't picked up the phone yet. It happens all the time. They're afraid. They're afraid to cue somebody.

And if you knock on their door, then they spill it out. Here's what I saw. Ron Bateman, you're giving me a memory. The last time I was in Idaho on the four beautiful university students that were slain, according to cops by Brian Koberger, I was standing outside the house. Jack, I don't know if I told you about this. I was standing there looking around. We were about to do a shoot with you, Jack. And I looked know if I told you about this. I was standing there looking around. We were about to do a shoot with you, Jack. And I looked over. I could look directly into the window of somebody's apartment. I could even see what their dishwashing liquid was. Dawn.

And what I'm saying is if anybody lives along that route, what, if anything, did they see? They may not even know they saw something but what are cops doing right now take a listen our cut 13 wjz when asked if there was a threat to the public the sheriff told wjz can i put the comment out there that says we don't believe there's a threat to the community i can't do it he says there will be extra patrols along the trail while the investigation continues and reminds people to practice caution and stay alert. He wants anyone with information about Warren to come forward. If you see something that doesn't make you feel comfortable, if you feel suspicious about it, take out your phone and call 9-1-1.

Okay, that tells me volumes. I want to say there's not a threat, but I can't say that. When the cops tell you there's not a threat, that means it's a targeted attack and they think they know who it is. There's a big screw up in Coburger when the cops came out and said there's not a threat. But the killer was, in fact, still walking free. That's when they thought it was a targeted attack on these four victims. I got something for you. Who's that jumping in, Vincent? Is that you or Bateman?

That was me. Go ahead. That was me. Go ahead. That was me. I just got a question that really bothers me. Why is a mother of five going out for a jog without her kids at 6 p.m. on a Saturday night? Who is this talking? Ron Bateman. I'm sorry.

Is this Bateman? Yes, ma'am. Okay, Ron Bateman. I need to drag you into 2022. Guess what? Women go jogging when they can. How do I know if there was an aunt or the boyfriend or whoever with the children? And guess what?

Sometimes we go jogging in shorts and a jogging bra. I want you to sit down when you hear the rest of it. And sometimes we don't worry that we're going to get raped and murdered. So at 6 p.m., for Pete's sake, I'm still going strong at 6 p.m. To me, that's like 1 p.m. Please do not say that again, Bateman. Spanky, spanky.

Why was she out jogging? Because she felt like it. Excuse me. Are we in USA here? Or am I in communist China? Oh, we're still in the USA. So I can't go out and jog at 6 p.m. Are you defending him?

Jackie is defending you, FYI. I think he means why didn't you have your kids with him, because that's usually an unusual. Oh, so you're going to take five children that are toddlers with you when you jog. Oh, okay. Bateman, how many children do you have? I have three. Hey, do you ever take them jogging or walking when they were two or three years old? I actually did take them on a trail, actually. So hiking, hiking, but not jogging. Hey, did you ever think this mom might want to break? She's got five children. Oh, absolutely. Okay, I'm going to quit beating on

you for just a moment, even though it's a lot of fun. I want to talk about somebody else, not a suspect, the boyfriend. Take a listen to our cut to our friends at Crime Online. 37-year-old mother of five, Rachel Morin, and 27-year-old Richard Tobin announced they were a couple via Facebook. Just four days after the relationship announcement, Rachel is missing, and Richard Tobin is defending his past. Tobin is the one who called to report his new girlfriend missing at 11.30 p.m. Saturday night, and it was Tobin who told police where Marin's car was parked and that she wasn't in the car.

Tobin is a decade younger than Rachel Marin and has a lengthy criminal past. Tobin felt the need to address the speculation and in a Facebook post said, quote, I love Rachel. I would never do anything to her. Yes, I have a past, but I also have 15 months clean and have changed as a person. Please. Prime Stories with Nancy Grace Vincent Hill is joining me from Fox 45 Baltimore. I did a little research on the boyfriend and what I found is he doesn't just have a past. He has 14 arrests since 2014, including drugs, assault, disorderly conduct, refusing arrest. I was told domestic. What do you know? Yeah, Nancy, I mean, you just laid out his rap sheet, if you will.

You know I did. Yeah, to go back to my cop days, you know, when you're the person to call 911, when you're the person to find the car, when you're injecting yourself in an investigation, certainly as an investigator, you want to question those things. You know, like you touched on her being a woman walking and running in the park with shorts and a sports bra. I mean, think about this, Nancy. She was a beautiful woman at six o'clock. The sun is still up. I'm thinking a hundred people would have noticed her running through that park just because eyes glazed on beauty. Right. So, you know, we don't have a bunch of people coming forward to say, oh, yeah, I saw her running in this trail at 6 o'clock. Then there's a problem with the statements made by the boyfriend. Okay.

Why do you say that there is a problem with statements made by the boyfriend? Well, I mean, think about it, Nancy. She did go to this trail. She was on a run. Yeah. She's a very noticeable person. People would have noticed, yes, I she did go to this trail she was on a run yeah she's a very noticeable person people would have noticed yes i saw her yeah nobody would notice an ugly bag like me is that what you're trying to say thanks go ahead i'm not saying that they wouldn't notice me running

through the trail i'm just i'm just saying she will she would probably catch eyes if she was in that trail. Right. So as an investigator, I'd want people to come forward and say, yes, I saw her at 615. I was walking my dog. She ran past me. She smiled and said hello. If I don't see that, then I have to go back even further than six o'clock and figure out where Rachel was leading up until the time of that 911 call. So, Nancy, I would just comment. Is this Matthew Mangino? Yes. Okay, go ahead.

He's the boyfriend. And you're always going to look at the boyfriend, the husband. It's always going to be a suspect, at least initially. And there are some things that really, you know, seem inconsistent with someone who has nothing to do with this based on his statements and other things. But I think you also can't rush the judgment and put blinders on. And sometimes that happens. One of the things that I would want to look into is, you know, what relationships were either he or her in prior to this relationship? Because one of the things that's striking is just on the 1st of August, he put something up saying that he was in a relationship with her.

Did that offend a former girlfriend or offend a former boyfriend? Is this Mangino still speaking? Yes, it is. Okay, Matthew Mangino joining me, former prosecutor of felonies including homicides, now defense attorney and author at mattmangino.com. Matt, you're absolutely correct. I think the mode of homicide, cause of death, let's just say, what if somebody snapped her neck? We can safely assume a woman didn't do that. If she was bludgeoned dead by, let's just say, think of Ted Bundy. He actually bludgeoned people with a log. Depending on the mode of death, statistically, you may be

able to exclude a female killer. I don't think this was a female killer, but you're right. Typically, the investigation starts with the love object, the husband, the ex-husband, boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, stalker, male co-worker, and then you move out. Of course, there's always the weirdo like Lisa Nowak. Isn't that her name, Jackie? Literally an astronaut that traveled across country to try to kill her love rival. It does happen. Dr. Tim Gallagher joining us, medical examiner from the state of Florida.

Dr. Gallagher, they walk upon the scene and they immediately say, this is a homicide. What does that tell you, Dr. Gallagher? What it tells me is that there was something at the scene that was probably bloody. But, you know, it makes me question, you know, who is the person who made that call, you know, and what are their qualifications? You know, how are they able to come to this conclusion? You know, a bloody scene, especially an outdoor bloody scene,

especially an outdoor bloody scene in an area that is secreted away, such as a tunnel, you know, how do we know that it's not an animal attack a pit bull attack you know something something of that nature you know so um i think that um you know it's a good case for the medical examiner to um really spend a lot of time on because uh you know the the nature of the killing um whether it be uhudgeoned to death or whether it be a sharp instrument being used. You know, a lot of things can mimic that, especially in the outdoors. You know, was she a victim of an accident? Did she get hit by a golf cart?

You know, that may have been going through that tunnel, too. You know, so these are questions that the medical examiner is very qualified to answer. Wow. I didn't see that answer coming, but you're absolutely right. Guys, we're focusing on, for a moment anyway, the boyfriend who announced on social media there were a couple just four days before Rachel was found dead. But, yes, that's standard operating procedure

to look at him first. That doesn't mean he's guilty and he's not been named a suspect. Can I remind everybody of Eliza Fletcher? Let's now recut 22, our friends at WREG. Fletcher was jogging down Central Avenue around 4.30 this morning when investigators say she was approached by someone who forced her into a dark-colored SUV and drove off.

You don't want to hear that that's going on. We want to find her. We don't know. We don't that that's going on. We want to find her. We don't know. We don't know what's going on. Hart Robinson is a friend of Fletcher and got the news this morning and immediately came to the area of Central Avenue and Zach Curling Street where she was last seen. Everybody's desperately looking for her. Eliza Fletcher, loving mother, teacher, was killed by a man, according to police, murdered, assaulted and murdered,

Cleotha Abston, who had never met her before. It's like a predator. And then, of course, I can never forget the Long Island jogger, as she is called, Karina Vetrano. Take a listen to our cut 26 from GMA. New York police are on the hunt for a killer. Right now, there's evidence of strangulation,

asphyxiation. Overnight a vigil for 30-year-old Karina Vetrano who went out for a jog around five o'clock Tuesday and never came home. Concerned, her father called police and went out looking for her on a path they often ran together. You can imagine his angst at that point. We found her face down in the ground. We immediately called EMS. Vetrano was found face down just a few blocks away from her New York home. Found by her own father, a man I now consider a friend, Phil Vetrano. She was murdered by 20-year-old Chanel Lewis, whom she had never met, and of course, Molly Tibbetts.

Take a listen to our cut 29 from ABC. For the first time, we are hearing from the man who believes he could be the last person to have seen Molly Tibbetts before her mysterious disappearance. Devin Riley says the University of Iowa student went jogging past his house about 8 p.m. July 18th. She jogged down the street, up the hill, and there was just nothing of it until I heard somebody was missing, and then it really hit me, and it's like I haven't seen that runner since then. He called the police with the tip after seeing her picture on the news. Molly Tibbetts was murdered by a man she had never met, who then dragged her off and hid her body in a cornfield.

His name, Christian Rivera. What is the truth about the disappearance and death of this beautiful mom of five children, now sentenced to live without mom? We wait as justice unfolds. If you have information, please dial 410-836-5430. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.