Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - POLICE: PARENTS DINE OUT, LEAVE 5 CHILDREN TO STARVE

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

On a Tuesday afternoon, a driver in the 700 block of 15th street in Miami Beach sees a 6-year-old boy running across 15th street, unsupervised and in a high traffic area. Calling 911, the driver relates what he is seeing, and officers arrive on scene in a matter of minutes.  Police see the child leaving an apartment complex by himself and ask the boy where he lives. The child leads the officers to his apartment to show them he isn't lost and the apartment door is answered by the oldest person in the apartment, the boys 12-year-old sister.  Officers find there are a total of five children in the apartment between the ages of 6 and 12, with no adults in the home. The officers report a strong odor of urine, the children are not bathed, their clothes are dirty and there is no food in the house. The apartment doesn't have a functioning stove, no electricity, and no working toilet. . Asking the children if they are hungry, they all say 'yes' and tell the police their last meal had been around 10 p.m. the night before.  The children tell the police they have been without electricity for around two months. Trying to locate their parents, the children tell the police they have no way of contacting their mother, but they know she works at a hotel in Miami. They don't know where their father works.  Police officers finally contact the children's mother, Azra Nikocevic and get her to come to the police station.  Officers question Nikocevic about what the children have told them about going to bed hungry and having no electricity.  She tells investigators the electricity to their apartment has been cut off for about 6 weeks because they got behind on the bill. She also tells investigators she is trying to get assistance with food stamps but denies depriving her children of food.    Azra Nikocevic and Sanel Canovic are arrested after leaving their five children ages six to 12 unattended in a filthy apartment with no food, no electricity, and no working toilet. The mother gave a statement to police and denies depriving her children of food while the children's father refused to speak to police without an attorney.  Both are charged with five felony child neglect charges, and the children were taken into protective custody while authorities investigate.  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Derek Smith - Criminal Defense Attorney,  www.dwsmithlegal.com Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski  - Forensic Psychologist, Author: “Darksides", darksides.podia.com,   YouTube: Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski, Forensic Psychologist Officer Christopher Bess - Miami Beach Police Department Dr. Michelle DuPre - Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: “Money, Mischief, and Murder: The Murdaugh Dynasty...the Rest of the Story" ; "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Child Abuse Investigation Field Guide", Forensic Consultant DMichelleDupreMD.com Paula Rohde  - Child abuse/welfare consultant and expert, Former Child Protective Services Administrator for Orange County, CA. abuse and neglect investigations.  Paula Rohde Consulting LLC, Twitter: @PaulaRohde2.  Chelsea Jones  - Weekend Evening Anchor / Reporter at CBS News Miami, Emmy Award winner for 2024 National coverage of the Stanley Cup Finals, website: www.cbsmiami.com, X, IG and FB: @ChelseaJonesTV See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Parents dine out and leave their five children at home to starve. Mommy says she's too focused on her job. Let me understand this. So they're out, what are they having? A steak and potato, waffle house, Chipotle? I don't know.

They're out together, mommy and daddy, yucking it up, ordering whatever they want while their five children are emaciated, starving at home? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Five children hungry, home alone, with no electricity and clogged toilet. Where's mommy and daddy? Well, I know where they are. They're at the Golden Corral, Chipotle, you name it. That's where they are. Their children at home starving with the commode running over with feces. That's where the children are.

When asked, mommy says, oh, I've been too focused on my job. Really? That's something I think mommy should think about behind bars. And daddy, you're not off the hook either. Take a listen to this. On a Tuesday afternoon, a driver in the 700 block of 15th Street in Miami Beach behind bars and daddy you're not off the hook either take a listen to this on a tuesday afternoon a driver in the 700 block of 15th street in miami beach sees a six-year-old boy running across 15th street unsupervised and in a high traffic area calling 9-1-1 the driver relates what he's seeing

and officers arrive on the scene in a matter of minutes police see the child leaving an apartment complex by himself and ask the boy where he lives. The child leads the officers to his apartment to show them he isn't lost and the apartment door is answered by the oldest person in the apartment, the boy's 12-year-old sister. Joining me in All-Star Panel to make sense of what we are learning right now, but from what I understand, a six-year-old little boy, that's first or second grade max, is running unsupervised across a street in a high traffic area. Let's just start with that. A driver happens to see the boy running, calls 911. Then when police respond, they find the boy, skin and bones.

You know, straight out to Officer Christopher Bess, who is joining us out of Miami Beach with the PD Police Department. Sadly, officer, there's never a lack of business when it comes to mistreated children. Isn't that true? Absolutely. Unfortunately, this is an extremely heartbreaking case. While others were ringing in the new year, we had five kids who didn't know where their next meal would come from. Or any meal for that matter.

Joining me, Officer Christopher Bess. Just question, does anybody ever ask you that? Do you ever just get sick of it? Because, you know, I remember prosecuting felonies for over 10 years in inner city Atlanta. And I remember the moment I had the whole courtroom. I turned off the lights. I was doing a slide presentation to the jury. It was a serial murder.

I could get him on one, just one. So it had to work. I had a picture up of the victim. And at that moment, I didn't know how much more I could take. Her head, her scalp had to be during autopsy, pulled back so you could see the contusions under her scalp. And I remember that moment thinking, I don't know how much more I can take. I'm so saturated with it. Do you ever feel like that, Bess? Absolutely. So unfortunately, these particular cases happen more often than not. Our detectives from the Special Victims Unit, our responding officers are really still having a difficult time with going about their day to day after seeing just the very sad conditions these kids are living in. I want to go straight out. I'm about to go to

a very well-known anchor and reporter at CBS News Miami. I'll also report she's an Emmy Award winner, by the way. But I want to go to Derek Smith, high profile criminal defense attorney who has represented parents in similar cases. Derek Smith, you know, I've looked at your trial record. You win a lot of cases. You have a lot of clients. You're successful. Is there ever a moment you walk out of your office and say, I'm going to vomit. I can't take one more case like this. Of course. Yeah. You'll have that. I mean, emotions when there's children involved, obviously. I mean, this isn't near one of the worst cases that I've seen. It's bad. You don't really seem that worried, Derek. You know what? I don't think so. I mean, the parents are trying to do what they can. They're

earning. They're making a living. They're trying. Their kids have shelter. No electricity, no food. I read the schools. Shelter, my rear end. Well, at least they're in Miami. Control room, could I please see the picture of the two parents in court with their defense attorney. You just showed it. There you go. Hey, they haven't missed a meal. They're doing fine. Derek Smith, they're out. Each one has their own private lawyer. What's happening here? I don't get it. They're fine. Their children are skin and bones and running in the traffic. Do you have children, Derek? Yes, Nancy, I have four of them.

I bet they're not running out in the middle of a busy intersection, starving. Well, no comment. Let's focus on them. But so I have, you know, my first son I share with my ex-wife. And sometimes we get into discussions about what we're feeding them. Is it appropriate or whatnot? I'll make a beautiful dinner. Chicken, broccoli. He won't want it. He wants McDonald's. He wants chicken nuggets. You know what, son? Sorry. You're going to eat what I provided. It's healthy. And if you don't want it, you can go to bed. And I've read-

I'm glad to hear that your children are at least eating and they have the choice to turn down the broccoli. But you know, to you, Chelsea Jones, Emmy award winner, investigative reporter and anchor CBS news, Miami, these children didn't have the chance to turn down broccoli at dinner. You think they'd turn down broccoli? They'd eat any scrap they could find. Tell me about this little boy, six years old. Now, does that put him in first or second grade? It kind of depends on his birthday, whether he's even going to school, running out in an intersection, a heavily trafficked intersection. So the woman who called police and found this six-year-old boy, it's actually what they learned when police went back to the home from the eldest child that kind of gave a picture of what these children basis arrest documents show that the eldest

child who is 12 uh told police they hadn't eaten since the day before this is new year's eve so she says um on the 30th at 10 p.m was their last meal and then she also told police wait just a moment hold on chelsea i'm taking from the fire hydrant right now you're giving me so much 30th at 10 p.m. was their last meal. And then she also told police. Wait just a moment. Hold on. Chelsea, I'm taking from the fire hydrant right now. You're giving me so much information. I don't want to miss one fact, OK, because I plan to use everything you tell me. I plan to use all that scrap metal and turn it into a bullet to shoot right at these two parents. It all started when the little six year old runs out into traffic. Is that right? Correct. Okay. Officer Christopher Bess is joining us, Miami Beach PD. Bess, this is called heavily trafficked. Tell me about the intersection because I'm having nightmares.

There's one thing about running across the street where you live, you know, it's a single lane, as opposed to 3rd Avenue and Lex in Manhattan, okay? Describe this heavily trafficked area. Correct. So it is an enormous intersection, and it is utilized pretty heavily by vehicle traffic and also other pedestrian traffic as well. So this is something that the boy and also the other victims we learned would do quite often. They didn't have electricity, so they would navigate this intersection quite often going to the park and other areas of the city, again, just to do what normal kids would do. Two forensic psychologists joining us, Dr. Jeff Kaliszewski, author of A Dark Side. On YouTube, you can find him, Dr. Jeff Kaliszewski, forensic psychologist.

Dr. Jeff, thank you for being with us. I find it very difficult to take him, okay, because since my children came home from the NICU at five pounds and two pounds, my life's mission is to keep them happy and well fed and safe. So how do the parents go chow down at Chipotle or Golden Corral when their children are running in the street with their bones poking out. Right. You know, I've been involved in literally thousands of neglect and abuse cases as a forensic psychologist. And many times, you know, when you see neglect like this, there may be substance abuse or there may be mental illness or even a lack of knowledge to parent. But occasionally you will run into these parents that are so self-centered, so caught up in their own lives that the children are secondary to the

point where the kids are harmed. And, you know, I wonder about this case. Is this a case of sort of narcissistic and self-centered people? Hold on. Okay. You're giving me blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What do you mean? The child is secondary. That could mean anything. The children are starving. I don't know why you call that secondary. That's certainly euphemistic.

You're putting perfume on the pig. The children were starving. The commodes are overflowing with feces. You know what that is, right? Crap. Poop. And they're living there in the cold while mommy and daddy are dining out

at a restaurant. What does secondary mean? What I mean by secondary is they're so caught up in their own life and what they want that the kids are a second thought. They don't even want to feed the kids as long as they're fed. Maybe like maybe they'll leave some money for

the kids or maybe they'll just forget about the kids because they're well fed and happy and doing their own thing. And the kids are on the back burner. I'm looking at him right now, Kaleshevsky. You know what? I need an MD. Dr. Michelle Dupree is joining us. You know her well. She shot to fame during the Alex Murdoch double murder trial. But in my world, the world of crime, she was already famous forensic pathologist, medical examiner. And guess what?

Also former detective, author of Money, Mischief and Murder, The Murdoch Dynasty, the rest of the story. And more important for me, field guide for child abuse investigation, child abuse investigation, field guide and homicide investigation, field guide. Dr. Dupree, thank you for taking time to be with us. How long do you have to starve a child before their ribs and their bones start showing through their skin? Nancy, a child normally would starve to death in three to four weeks. And so they're going to be exhibiting signs of that. They're going to get very skinny.

All sorts of other symptoms and signs are going to be there. So, you know, two to three weeks and that's it. You know, a child, a person cannot go very long without water, three days or so, but food maybe three or four weeks. This is so egregious. And unfortunately, this is not that uncommon. I have dealt with many child abuse and neglect cases all over the country, really. And we see this more often than we want. You know, I'm catching on one thing. You know, Dr. Dupree, it's my job to marshal evidence to determine what I can prove, whether that evidence is admissible in front of a jury, because if it's not, it means nothing to me. But I just heard you

say it could take two to three weeks before a child's bones are actually sticking out. Okay. Derek Smith, back to you. You're a veteran trial lawyer right there. I would have a field day with these parents because it's not an isolated incident where one night they didn't get supper. They're not steaming broccoli, okay, in the steamer like you do for your children. This took at least two to three weeks to methodically starve them. Well, Nancy, you mentioned evidence. Well, you mentioned evidence. You mentioned evidence.

This is how we try cases. This is how we figure out guilt, innocence. We use evidence, testimony. And right here, the children are the ones telling the police they went to bed hungry that night. Because as the mother said, when they questioned her, they don't go to bed hungry at night. They just didn't want raising canes or she didn't want to feed a McDonald's and the children didn't want to eat anything but that. So that's a different argument. I'm starting to see your defense here. So you're saying the children want a McDonald's and her being such a good mommy, she goes, oh, no fast food for you.

How about no food for you? One night of refusing McDonald's does not a starving child make. And you better know right now, my children have never gone to bed without plenty of food. Okay. Okay. Ever. So you're saying that in this case, now I get why you were talking about your son wanting McDonald's as opposed to broccoli. You're saying that mommy is such a good mommy.

She wouldn't feed her children fast food. You do know that's BS, right? In the real world, maybe in criminal defense world is great. I wouldn't buy that if an angel flew down from heaven and tried to sell it to me. You're saying they went to bed hungry because mommy didn't want them to have McDonald's. Is that your defense right now? Hey, Nancy, I'm pointing to the evidence. And right now the evidence we have is testimony from the child and testimony from the parents. And furthermore, if you look into what they were talking about to the police, they're in school.

The school provides them with food. So how do they get to this point? Oh, my stars. So wait, you're saying mommy and daddy are not responsible for breakfast and lunch because the children can get that at school? I mean, if they're provided food from the school, how are they getting to this point? Let me just say this. Officer Bess, I got to give this to Derek Smith. He wins a lot of cases. And now I see why he's got this good guy. Look at me when I lie to you appearance. And he makes it seem like, hey, she's just a good mom. She didn't want them to

have fast food, Officer Bess. You know, you might almost fall for it unless you had been one of the cops answering that call and you see the child thin, thin, running in the street and you go to the home. Tell me, Bess, what was found in the home? Well, Dan, what we were able to discover in the home is there was no functioning stove. So even if the parents felt as though they wanted to cook broccoli, they didn't even have the modacity to fix the basic necessities, such as a stove in the home. Furthermore, there was no food inside of their inside of their refrigerator. So these kids not only have to fend for themselves, but the foods and the meals that were provided in the schools were the only source of nourishment they really had. You know, at a lot of schools, I don't know if you know this, Chelsea Jones,

but a lot of schools, they don't let you come back for seconds. And then for some children, if they do go back for seconds, they get made fun of. Did you know that? Yes. I mean, that's, I think, part of...

Another thing, Chelsea, isn't it true that this was during a break? The children didn't have food at school, had nothing. Correct. One of the children, the eldest child, also told police that on occasion when mom and dad were out, they would leave about twenty dollars for them to eat at home and they would take the purchase two bacon cheeseburgers and three McChickens totaling around 19 bucks to eat and that was not every day that was on occasion your point they were on a holiday break which then made meals even more sparse than normal parents face charges after five children found living in squalid conditions with no food. Joining me, an all-star panel, and we've got veteran trial lawyer Derek Smith trying to make the best argument he can for these two.

Chelsea Jones joining us, evening anchor, investigative reporter, CBS News Miami. Chelsea, any idea where the parents would go chow down for dinner? That isn't immediately available. And when I asked the mom, that wasn't something that she indicated to me exactly where they were when this all took place. Guys joining me right now, in addition to our all-star panel, Paula Rohde is joining us, child abuse welfare consultant and expert, former CPS child protective services in Orange County. She's at Paula Rohde Consulting. Paula, thank you for being with us. I was just talking before you joined us to Dr. Michelle Dupree, a renowned medical examiner and pathologist. And she says it would take two to three weeks for a child to

exhibit evidence, physical evidence that you could just look at and see that the child is starving two to three weeks. These are five children. Occasionally, occasionally mommy and daddy would leave a $20 bill. And I guess the children are supposed to run out in the traffic, five children and try to find something to eat. I don't know if you heard what they could get. It was like two cheeseburgers and some McNuggets and five of them would have to split that. And that was only on occasion, Paula. I mean, I'm hearing more and more. I first really found out about food denial as a form of child abuse in the past couple of years. I saw plenty of child abuse, children beaten, their bones broken, murdered, burned with cigarettes.

You know, of course, sex abuse that goes without saying raped. But I had not encountered or was not trained enough to realize what I was seeing. Denial of food as child abuse, Paula. Yes, it's actually would fall under severe neglect because the health and safety, the life of the child is immediately in danger with that severe withholding of essential necessities, food, among everything else. And when I say everything else, I mean the conditions of the home, the children having dirty and ill-fitting clothes, no supervision, left alone. And what I'm curious about is where were the protective adults, such as teachers, you have a reference to a school uniform, so they're not homeschooled where children have less access to protective adults, but you have teachers, you have relatives, you have the landlord if they were living in an apartment,

you have neighbors. And I would not be surprised if there have been reports made to Child Protective Services about the conditions and concerns for these children previously. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Just recently, a high-profile case, including starvation of not one but all the children, came to the forefront of the news in our country. Now, you're looking at these two parents.

They haven't missed a meal. But what about this woman? Watch her. I just got a text message from Eve's teacher. And she said that Eve did not pack a lunch today. And can I bring a lunch over to the school? This happens quite often when you're having raising children because I know that her teacher is uncomfortable with her being hungry and not having a lunch and it would ease her discomfort if I came to the school with lunch.

But I responded and just said Eve is responsible for making her lunches in the morning and she actually told me she did pack a lunch. so the natural outcome is she's just going to need to be hungry and hopefully hopefully nobody gives her food and nobody steps in and gives her a lunch. the teacher uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable just looking at her. That's Ruby Frankie, who shot to stardom with a mommy blog and then her own show. That was from the official eight passengers on YouTube. It went from her fame and glory, giving parental advice to millions of followers to this. a 12 year old boy show up here at my front door asking for help. And he's

uh, said he just came from a neighbor's house and we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs, he's hungry and he's thirsty. Okay. Is your door locked? No, I'm sitting outside with him on the front patio. Okay, cool. And he asked us to call the police. So he's very afraid. And he's 12 years old.

You can hear the neighbor break down, crying, as he sees the starving boy of Ruby Frankie. And in the photos we're showing you, we're not... We're not even showing you the worst because these children were bound and tied up. Take a listen to more of that 911 call. She's a bad lady. We didn't realize how bad.

I'm just asking where he is. Well, it sounds like he's making a phone call real quick to his sergeant. He is going to head up. Okay. All right. Well, if we have to take him inside the house, we will. We're just sitting outside right now because we have chairs out here and it was convenient. That's okay. If anything, he's sitting out down your driveway and keeping an eye on the house. So if that's where you feel safe, that's where the child feels safe, let's just stay where you're at. Yeah.

Does he have anything with him? No, he's wearing a long sleeve shirt and shorts and it's way too big for him. Can you tell me what color the shirt and shirt are? Okay, the ambulance is here. Are they with you? No, they're just not getting out of the truck. Okay. Okay. I'll go ahead and I'll let you go then. You did a great job. Dr. Michelle Dupree, I don't know if you could see the images that we are showing our viewers right now,

but who could see these children and not know something was horribly wrong? Teachers, administrators, neighbors, tenants, nobody said a thing. Dr. Dupree, how long would a child starve to get to the point of Ruby Frankie's children? You saw the bones protruding, almost about to break through the skin. Well, Nancy, it would be about the same thing. And of course, everything is dependent upon the child individually. But again, three to four weeks, something like that. And this is a chronic thing, obviously, in these children. This is not an overnight thing or a one-time event. This is something that's been going on for a long time, and it's disgusting. A child leads officers to siblings with no food, no electricity, and dirty clothes. While the parents are actually dining out, leaving their children to starve,

Camo running over with feces, no clean clothes, the place is cold, we find out that the parents have jobs. They have money. They have food. Listen. Looking around the apartment, officers discover the toilet contains stagnant water and feces and there is no toilet paper. The children tell police they have been without electricity for around two months. Trying to locate their parents, the children tell police they have no way of contacting their mother, but they know she works at a hotel in Miami. They don't know where their father works. And then police find out more. As officers talk to the children and look at the apartment,

it is apparent things are even worse than it seems. All five children share a single, full-size bed and lack clean clothing. Officers also note a strong odor of soiling, and the 12-year-old girl tells them her parents haven't washed clothes for a couple of weeks, so they just wear what they have. So let me understand this. Officer Christopher Best joining us from Miami Beach PD. So not only do they not give the children food, the children are starving while they're down the street at Golden Corral, but they don't wash the clothes either. The parents go to work every day.

Their clothes are clean. I mean, they've got to know this is wrong. It's not like they don't understand what they're doing wrong because their clothes are clean. They have food. Absolutely. So our investigation revealed that not only do the parents have jobs, but the mother makes about fourteen hundred,400 a week. When the kids expressed concerns over having food and clothing, the children told our investigators that it depended on the mood. The 12-year-old, in all instances, were like the guardian of her other siblings. She would advocate for them. She would ask her mother and or father for additional money. And she told our detectives it all depended on their mood, whether they wanted to feed us or not.

When they would go out to Lincoln Road or Ocean Drive to dine out and have dinner or have takeout, whenever they would ask for more. It was all depending on how the parents felt in that moment. Isn't it true that she said she was too focused on her job to feed her children? Absolutely. That's also what detectives uncovered. And I want to make it very clear. These parents knew exactly what they were doing. This was very intentional based on the physical evidence and also the testimony of both parents

and children. This was a chronic issue that stemmed from New York. So they had been flagged in New York. What exactly happened when they were in New York? So there was an open case of child neglect in New York. CPS took away the kids while they were there. Once they went through the process of regaining custody of their children, they relocated down here in Miami Beach, and apparently the same vicious cycle continued. accustomed to just to provide food for their kids during a break when their parents refused to provide them with the $20 outside of the meals that they received in school. So very disturbing case. My stars.

So one of them had a cell phone and had to sell it for food. Absolutely. Guys, listen to this. At the police station, the children are being fed as the 12-year-old girl explains. Occasionally, they get to eat food their parents bring home. The girl explains to police that her mother would occasionally leave them a $20 bill to buy food, and she would buy two bacon cheeseburgers and three McChicken sandwiches from McDonald's to feed all five of the children. The parents frequently leave the children at home without food while they go out to eat dinner.

911 emergency, what are you reporting? Hello? leave the children at home without food while they go out to eat dinner. Can you hear me? And we have abusing parents. Did you hear that? Okay. How did they abuse you? Okay. They hit us. They throw us across the room. They pull our hair. They yank out our hair. I have two, my two little sisters right now are chained up. One Turpin child manages to escape through a window after years of abuse and get to make a 911 call. You saw that photo of all the children in matching outfits. The Turpin parents would do this. They would stage photos and force the children to behave in a certain way in front of the camera, dressing them all alike in a choreographed photo to send out. But at home, as is now dubbed, the house of horrors.

Listen. David and Louise Turpin live in Paris, California, with their 13 children, ranging in age from 2 to 29. The Turpins imprison and beat their children, only allowing them to eat once a day and bathe once a year. The parents would buy food for themselves, but their kids weren't allowed to eat it.

When 17-year-old Jordan escapes out a window, she calls 911 and tells the dispatcher she and her siblings are being abused by their parents and that the smell in the house is so bad sometimes she can barely breathe. She also says two of her sisters and one of her brothers are currently chained to their beds. David and Louise Turpin plead guilty and are sentenced to life in prison. Rot in hell, Turpin parents. They're behind bars where they belong, but guess what? They're getting

three hots and a cot, something they deprived their children of for years until again, their bones were literally, literally sticking out, almost about to puncture the skin. Another issue there with the turpins, listen to this. What about this? Dr. Jeff Kalashevsky, they would buy pies at the deli and the grocery store, apple pies, pumpkin pies, and more, and leave them out. Then they would unchain the children and let them out of closets. And they would let them come down and see the food, but not let them eat it.

Right. That's beyond neglect. That's sadistic psychological abuse, no doubt. You know, I'm just wondering what part of hell is for people like this? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Derek Smith, please don't think I'm picking on you just because you represent people like this that starve their children. What do you do in a case like this? And look, I'm giving you a hard time, but you're very successful. You know, the constitution, like the back of your hands, you know, the rules of evidence, uh, backwards and forwards, like they're your alphabet.

But how can you get parents off in a case like the one we're looking at right now? Forget about the Terpens. They've already pled guilty. They got a one-way ticket to hell. But how would you argue the current case, the case in chief we're discussing? I think that the biggest issue here would be intent. I mean, what was the parents' intent here? I know the detective mentioned that, you know, some past issues in New York could point to a pattern of behavior with them. But I mean, what was the parents' intent here? I know the detective mentioned that, you know, some past issues in New York could point to a pattern of behavior with them. But, I mean, there's no evidence of physical abuse, which is good. I understand that we have some evidence that the mother's employed and what money she's making. However, what are their expenses?

There's no electricity at home. Well, they are not paying the electric bill, and the grocery bill is next to nothing. Well, I mean, groceries, as you know, are expensive nowadays. And you got five kids to feed here in this case. You need to stop right there. You need to stop. OK, I was supporting you and your representation because it's allowed under the Constitution of parents that starve their children. But to say with a straight face, grocery bills are expensive.

They're eating out, man. They're paying for restaurant food. You know, when I grew up, we never got to go to a restaurant, ever. We ate home every night because we couldn't afford to go to a restaurant. Well, obviously they can't cook at home if they don't have that working stove,

but they may have an air fryer. They may have a microwave. Other ways that they can prepare the food for the children, but they don't go to school. I'm making a list on you. Okay, so you're saying. They're not getting meals prepared for that. Grocery bills.

I got to write this down. Grocery bills cost a lot. Oh, that's going to work with a jury. Good luck with that. And the stove's not working. Why is the stove working? The stove's not working, Derek, because mommy and daddy are spending the money on themselves.

You saw them. They ain't missed a meal, man. They can get back and forth to work. The mom's making 72 grand a year for Pete's sake. The reason they can't cook is because they aren't paying for heat and air condition, much less a stove in the home. But I can see where you're going. And, you know, I asked for that.

You gave it to me. That's what your defense would be. Although I think the mom not wanting them to eat snack food or fast food, that might work a little bit better. But I want you to hear this, Derek Smith. Police asked the children if they were hungry and fed them. As police interviewed the 12-year-old, she utters some very telling information. The parents would frequently share an evening meal without providing food for the children,

and they would often leave the children at home while they went out to dinner. The girl says the siblings often went to bed hungry. You know, Chelsea Jones joining us, evening anchor, investigative reporter, CBS News Miami. She won an Emmy. That ain't easy. Chelsea, I mean, what can you tell me about these two parents? The dad had a job. I just don't know what his job is yet.

The mom had a really good job at a hotel in Miami. So that tells me she had to go back and forth. She probably had a really good job at a hotel in Miami. So that tells me she had to go back and forth. She probably had a car. So she could afford transportation, eating out, clothes to wear to work, the whole shebang, but not food for her children. And the apartment was like a hellhole. Yeah, it's unclear based on what police have told us at this point and revealed how she

got to work. But they report that she works at Moxie Hotel, which is also on the beach. So she could be getting there by foot. However, when I talked to her, she was really emphasizing the fact that she made a mistake. She did confirm that she was from New York and that her children never went to bed hungry and that at the end of the day, they just weren't hungry despite what has been revealed by police that these children were not eating and were being neglected. Chelsea, did you say the mom said her children never went to bed hungry? Correct. Oh, I can't wait for the jury to hear that. What? I asked her specifically about the $20 that she would sometimes supply in the food that they were able to get with only $20 for the five kids. And she said that wasn't true and that they often just didn't want what she would allow.

Take care of your kids. I let the job. I was focusing more on the job than the kids. And it got to me like the career and stuff. But just take care of your kids and, you know, love them as much as you can. What? You were hearing mommy, Azra Nikosevic, speaking to our Chelsea Jones, investigative reporter, anchor CBS Miami. Did I just hear her correctly? Chelsea, did she actually tell you

I was focusing more on the job and the career? What? That is correct. Yes. And that's not all she said. Listen, police say they found, you know, the plumbing wasn't on the electricity hadn't been on for two months. The kids correct the electricity was off for like a month and a half but and the toilet was clogged but i'll fix everything okay if she ever does fix it it's because the court will make her fix it but here is mommy along with daddy in court i'm gonna set uh i'll find probable cause i do find it for all five counts your honor if you'd be so inclined for pretrial services for all five counts considering missing the covid lack of criminal history what's your position state given that this the state doesn't feel like this would be a good fit um the inform rates the um the listed address where the living has um no electricity no um standard third precautions it's on one bond of twenty five hundred dollars that's the standard bond i'll set that for count one. And ROR on the other counts.

It's all for the same act. So counts two, three, four, and five are ROR. Count one is $2,500. Let me explain what you're hearing right now. The defense attorney, he's pulling a Derek Smith right there, asked for a PTS. You know what that is? We just call it PTI, pre-trial intervention. That's where there's no criminal case. And the defendants go to some classes like parenting classes,

and then everything's dropped. And the prosecutor, thank goodness said no. And they have walked out on $2,500 bond translation. That's $250 they have to put up and ROR released on your own recognizance. In other words, you don't have to pay anything. Just go back out there. Uh, okay. To Paula Rohde joining me, former child protective services, now Paula Rohde consulting. And it just keeps on and on and on. Second verse, same as the first.

These two are out, R-O-R, probably at Chipotle right now, probably having a steak somewhere. Maybe they're out back, I don't know, after starving their children. Yes, it's criminal. And they were arrested, rightly so. And I think that next step with regards to the Child Protective Services is to request of the juvenile court that the parents undergo a, in California, it's called a evidentiary psychological evaluation. Oh, my goodness. I was with you until you said that. The parents get to have a shrink paid by me, the taxpayer.

You know what? I don't need a shrink to know that they are self-centered and they are sadistic, watching their children day by day starve. Chelsea Jones joining me, CBS News Miami. What's next for mommy and daddy? What mom told me when I spoke to her was that she was going to fight to get custody of her five kids back. And we have yet to hear from the father at this point. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off.

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