Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Pop culture preacher busted in sex affair, Hillsong PR disaster

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

News of Carl Lenz's extra-marital affair has set off a public relations nightmare for megachurch Hillsong. An internal investigation of Hillsong's East Coast operations has begun, as has accusations of exploitation of the Australia-based organization's congregants and their donations. Hillsong denies these accusations. We reached out for comment and were referred to the link below.https://hillsong.com/media-releases/statement-recent-inaccurate-media-reports-finances/"A portion of the post from Hillsong: Recently there have been several stories circulating online alleging a serious abuse of trust – the misuse of church funds by Hillsong Church employees. We are particularly grieved that, in many cases, inaccurate accounts in these stories have been reported as if they are true."Hillsong Church strongly refutes that our culture casually allows for such gross misuse of church funds. In fact, these stories are especially troubling since Hillsong has a record of excellence in financial accountability globally and an unwavering commitment to financial integrity. Global leadership has always taken the stewardship of the tithes and offerings entrusted to us seriously and we have numerous structures in place to ensure financial accountability and integrity. Please find some of our policies below.Even though we know many of the stories circulating are not true, we are still obligating ourselves to closely examine the claims in line with our ongoing commitment to financial integrity. We have always placed a high value on good governance and stewardship, and if we discover a breach related to this we will take strong and swift action. We have a biblical responsibility to be excellent stewards of the ministry funds that have been committed to our care at each of our church locations."Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Troy Slaten - Criminal Defense Attorney, Los Angeles California, www.floydskerenlaw.com Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst www.drbethanymarshall.com Steven Lampley - Author, Speaker, Retired Police Officer and Undercover SVU Detective, Author, "12 and Murdered," www.stevendavidlampley.com, Facebook.com/StevenDavidLampleyPage Art Harris - Emmy Award-winning National Investigative Correspondent Hannah Frishberg - New York Post Features Reporter, Twitter & Instagram: @hanfrish  Tanya Levin - Hillsong Critic & Author, “People in Glass Houses: An Insider’s Story of a Life In and Out of Hillsong", www.tanyalevin.com Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Justin Bieber, Selena Gomez, scads of stars rushed to Hillsong Church, the New Age Christian version of church, but now in the wake of the discovery of affairs, a sex scandal, claims of misappropriation of funds. What's next? Is there an investigation ongoing? In a swift fall from grace, Lenz fired earlier this month, the church citing several reasons, including, quote, moral failures, launching a, quote, independent investigation into the culture of the church. Lenz admitting he was unfaithful to his wife of 17 years, writing on Instagram,

I take full responsibility for my actions. I now begin a journey of rebuilding trust with my wife, Laura, and my children and taking real time to work on and heal my own life and seek out the help that I need. You were just hearing our friend Zerreen Shaw at ABC News. Well, you know what? God bless him. But I'm still concerned about allegations of misappropriations of funds. And when I say funds, I'm talking about the money that we all put in the offering plate. Those funds. Is it true? With me, an all-star panel to make sense of it all.

With me, Troy Slayton, high-profile criminal defense attorney, joining me out of L.A. You can find him at FloydSkeerenLaw.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst to the stars, joining me from LA at DrBethanyMarshall.com. She's the star of a brand new Netflix series, Bling Empire. Stephen Lampley, author of a brand new book, former cop author, speaker, undercover SVU detective. Brand new book, 12 and Murdered. And you can find that on Amazon. Emmy award-winning national investigative correspondent, formerly with the Washington Post, then with CNN.

Art Harris at artharrisinvestigates.com. Special guest joining us, Hannah Frischberg from the New York Post, features reporter, and Tanya Levin, Hillsong critic and author, People in Glass Houses, an insider story of a life in and out of Hillsong. You can find her at tanyalevin.com. Wow. Where do I even start? First of all, to you, Hannah Frishbury, joining us with the New York Post. For those people that have not heard of Hillsong or Lentz, Carl Lentz, tell me, what is it? Why the big deal? Hillsong is an Australia-based megachurch that has built its brand on being youth-oriented. It's got a lot of celebrity endorsements from folks who seem to enjoy the music.

Hillsong's got a huge branch that's dedicated to music. It's very catchy, very poppy, Jesus-oriented, but also danceable. And, yeah, they've recently come in the headlines for the fall of Lent, who was their star pastor, which has unearthed a ton of other muck to do with the church following its fall. But we are talking about celebrities flocking to Hillsong, and you said it's Australian based, but it is here in the U.S. What celebrities are we talking about? I'm sure they don't fly to Australia every Sunday morning. Where are they located? The celebrities, I mean, Bieber is the biggest name, I would say, who's associated with the church because him and Carl then got real buddy-buddy for about a year there. And he was, yeah, I mean, basically serving as like a giant walking celebrity endorsement for this church during that time.

Let's take a listen to our cut number three. This is Mary H.K. Choi at HBO Vice News. Is Justin Bieber to Hillsong what Tom Cruise is to Scientology? No, it's apples and oranges because Scientology is so out there. They're like, you're the guy. So if we can get you indoctrinated quick enough, we're going to make you the spokesman. We've never done that. Justin's never set foot on stage. Hillsong works. Their global audience is staggering.

6.1 billion minutes of Hillsong content was viewed on YouTube last year. Hillsong United, one of their music groups, went double platinum. It's shiny packaging for age-old messages. Well, I don't know what's wrong with shiny packaging for age-old messages when you're talking don't know what's wrong with shiny packaging for age-old messages when you're talking about the Old and New Testaments, but things went sideways. Take a listen to Amy Robach, ABC News. Lentz was known as a rock star priest at Hillsong, a church previously frequented

by celebrities like Chris Pratt and Vanessa Hudgens, and followed online by more than half a million people. I just want to love people more. I just want to love Carl more. Raneen Karim says when she met Lentz five months ago, they began what she calls a consensual affair, in spite of what she thought were red flags, including him telling her not to Google him, saving her number in the Notes app instead of his contact list, and refusing to tell her his last name or what he did for a living despite regularly posting photos of himself online with Hollywood elite and NBA stars something she says she didn't know what first he's like you know I work for with celebrities and I said

what exactly you do and he keeps saying I manage celebrities and I travel with them he didn't want to say what he does. Did you think that was a red flag? He won't give you his last name? Yeah, it was. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psycho analyst to the stars, joining us from L.A., ding, ding, ding, ding, red flashing sign, bell of alarm, when the guy you're sleeping with won't tell you what he does for a living.

Catchphrase, don't Google me. I mean, I would run for the hills screaming as if I had seen a monster. Don't Google me? Well, the first thing you're going to do is Google him. But Nancy, think of the stories he might have spun for her about don't Google me. I'm working for these big celebrities and I've signed a nondisclosure. And if you know who I am, then you might tell other people. This pastor didn't lie small.

He lied big, Nancy. He spun a story. Think of it as not just a comment about, hey, I'd like to go out with you. I'd love to have sex with you. I want to throw back tequila in your apartment every Sunday afternoon after church. It wasn't just that he built a narrative. This is not lying. This is lying, conning and manipulativeness. So yes, she should have run for the hills unless it was exciting for her like it was for him, in which case people are willing to believe almost anything.

Exciting. You know what? I love my husband. I really do. I love him. The thought of doing anything to jeopardize my time with our children, i.e. co-parenting, 50% custody. Yeah. It's not that exciting. All right. It's not that exciting. The thought of being away from my children half the time, that's not going to happen. With me is a very special guest, Tanya Levin. Tanya, Hillsong critic and author, People in Glass Houses, an insider story of life in and out of Hillsong. Tanya, of course, Lance having affairs, multiple affairs, we think at least one right now, isn't a crime. That's not

a crime, nor is this the first time a great preacher has fallen from grace. Does anybody remember the name Jimmy Swagger? Because I sure do. Roll it. I have sinned against you, my Lord. I have sinned against you.

And I would ask that your precious blood would wash and cleanse every stain until it is in the seas of God's forgetfulness. Did he have to ask for forgiveness on a microphone televised? Art Harris, Emmy Award winning national correspondent. You're the one that cracked Swaggart, right?

I was among those, but I was there the day he resigned after chasing a lot of rumor and innuendo. He was confessing to something people weren't quite sure of, except that I actually interviewed a lady of the night who worked out of a $20 a night. Do you still actually say lady of the night? Okay, I guess I'm impressed in a weird kind of throwback way, but I'll let it occur. Go ahead. And ironically, Swaggart was caught outside the motel by the private eye of a rival preacher. He had attacked for having other relationships than his wife.

So this guy was very upset because he lost a big TV deal, and he got a PI to stake Swaggered out when he heard he was going to this little hotel and got pictures of him. And he asked Jimmy, what are you doing here? And he said, oh, I'm just changing my flat tire. He said, no, you're not changing your flat tire. My PI cut your valve stems, Jimmy. Bad enough you're lying about this, but you've been lying about me forever.

Why does it always go wrong when you mix TV and preachers? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, the latest pastor to seemingly topple from the pulpit is the Hillsong Mega Church Pastor Carl Lentz. Straight out to Tanya Levin, whose new book, People in Glass Houses, Insider Story, Life in and Out of Hillsong. What do you make of it, Tanya? You were in Hillsong. What does this all mean? Oh, I mean, well, it's just entirely part of their

culture. These people become untouchable. They have weeping women at their feet and, you know, nobody holds them to account for anything. And they are made into, you know, complete celebrities only with God as a backup. So, you know, they think they can do anything and they generally can. You know, why is it, Dr. Bethany Marshall, that we all get so distraught when a pastor cheats or with a congregant or a pastor defrauds the church of money, that money is put in the offering plate by people like my mom and dad who work night shifts to support us and tie to the church. Why is it so upsetting when a pastor does something that other people do every day and we just chalk it off? Because the pastor grooms

the congregation. In these cases, not all pastors groom the congregations, but in this case, the pastors groomed the congregation, just like a pedophile grooms the victim to believe that the victims, in this case, the congregants are special and unique. They have a special place in the world that they are contributing to the kingdom of God. And many of these followers put money in the offering plate that they didn't even have to give. Nancy, my parents tied 10% of their income their entire life. When my father asked my grandmother for my mother's hand in marriage, she was a single mom, her first question was, do you tithe? I mean, tithing holds a very sacred place in the religious community. So to think that all that money goes for fancy dinners,

gym memberships, mistresses, fancy bottles of wine. When you're giving money that could have gone to your children's shoes, school tuition, family vacations. Nancy, that hurts. That really, really hurts. And it's the double standard. It's the pastor who says being homosexual is wrong. So then you renounce your sexuality for your entire life. And then you find out that that pastor is indeed having an affair.

It is the deception from a person who's in a position of trust. I'm trying to figure out here to Hannah Frishberg, joining us from the New York Post. She's the features reporter there. Hannah, the sex, a pastor having sex with a congregant or someone else is, you know, the oldest story in the book. You can find that in the Old Testament. But allegedly misappropriation of funds. What are the claims? And they have, there are no formal charges as of right now. What are the claims? What's the investigation? A number of congregants reached out to me to say that during their time at the church doing what was functionally volunteer work, often babysitting

or doing other household tasks for the pastors, they got access to these PECS cards, these personal use business cards that were apparently like debit cards, just full of tithe money, which is, it seems to be like there might be an investigation into this in terms of it being embezzlement, as this was money that the, you know, the church was getting from its congregants in the name of bettering the church, and it appears to be going to large amounts of takeout food. It's going to ATVs that some of the pastors were just apparently recklessly riding around Williamsburg. Dean and DeLuca gift baskets, just a whole variety of luxury goods that I don't think these congregants would have given if they had realized that's where their money was going to be spent. Oh, absolutely not. You know, to Steve Lampley, former undercover detective and author of a brand

new book, 12 and Murdered. You can find that on Facebook. Steve, this sounds like a very extensive and exhaustive white collar crime investigation based on what Hannah, the claims that Hannah Frishberg is laying out. And again, the Hillside Pastor has not been formally charged. But if members are coming forward to reporters like Hannah Frishberg saying, I tithed my money, and now we're finding out about these debit cards that were tapped straight into tithe money, according to reports. How do you track that down? How do you prove something like that?

Nancy, these prepaid cards, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. I think they're called PECS cards. It's going to be really hard to do. And maybe that's why they use them. I'm assuming, that's my opinion, I don't know. Maybe that's the premise for the P pex because it is a lot explain what those cards are what are they steve lampley a pex card is nothing more than a prepaid uh similar to a prepaid uh debit card

you put money on there you spend it uh it's a lot different than a credit card where you have a trackable account uh of each of each expenditure that you do, that you get through the mail. These PECS cards are prepaid accounts, and you can use them any way you choose to. But the problem that the church investigations are a little different because you've got the Constitution back in them, or free speech and assembly and Freedom of Religion. And I believe it was – Wait a minute.

I don't think the founding fathers, when they came up with Freedom of Religion, anticipated paid debit cards to give out to people to write ATMs and buy lavish gift bags. I don't think that's exactly what they meant by Freedom of Religion. But I do think that there's a tax issue there. Hannah Frishberg, there's the issue of churches having this exempt status. They don't pay taxes, all charities actually, not just churches, the way the rest of us do. And that's for a reason, because the government wants to promote charity. But if there is wrongdoing, that status is going to be yanked pronto. I don't know. I mean, this is certainly not the

first time a church has been found to be misusing its status as tax exempt. John Oliver did a really good segment where he created a church called Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption. And it's a legally recognized church. And he was able to get tax exempt donations. And I think he only stopped it when people started sending in literal feed. But I mean, it's a huge loophole in the tax law in America. I can't speak to the rest of the world. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let's get our cut 23.

You're going to hear a voice you know very well speaking to Barbara Walters. Listen. You had preached that God wanted his subjects to live a lavish or successful lifestyle. You quoted from the New Testament, I pray you will be in good health as your soul prospers. Did you really feel that God was advising you to acquire material wealth? I really felt that prosperity gospel was the truth. I really thought that God wanted us to not have any problems, not have any sickness, not have any pain. Yes, but that's not the same as God wanting you to have lots of money, expensive clothes, huge salaries, lots of luxuries. We're not talking about health and pay. Yes, yes. But I really sincerely believed in what I was teaching. Our ministry just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

You were hearing the voice of Jim Baker, of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. What does that have to do with Hillsong today, the topic we're discussing, Jackie? Well, you know what? It seems like there's nothing new under the sun. Not only is the founder of this huge mega church seemingly doing the Lord's work here on earth under fire after the pastor is uncovered with affairs, but now allegations from inside the the church. Were their tithes going to support a lavish lifestyle by the Hillsong pastor and his family? Well, nobody knows Jim and Tammy Faye Baker better than Art Harris. Joining us, artharrisinvestigates.com. Art, hit me. Nancy, Jim Baker was very different than Hillsong. He was Hillsong on steroids. This was someone whose lavish spending threatened the tax-exempt status. IRS did not like the fact that, quote, substantial portion of his earnings, you're talking about millions of dollars a year, went to him and Tammy Faye Baker, his late wife, you remember, who cried on TV and her mascara ran very flamboyant

they had people enthralled with a daily talk show with the prosperity gospel it was called praise the Lord that people might not remember and they spent money on $8,000 dinner parties $350 this that was a lot of money a night hotel rooms and they had to pay air-conditioned remember the air-conditioned doghouse? Oh, air-conditioned doghouse. They sent their security guard out to buy sex toys with charitable tax-exempt contributions. I was just waiting on you. I knew you would be the one to bring up sex toys, Art.

Now, how did I know that? I don't know, but I knew that you would. I knew it wouldn't be Jackie over here. I knew it would be Troy Slayton. I knew it would be Art Harris. But go ahead. But Jim Baker served time in prison for defrauding his flock. He was collecting more than $60 million to build condos for the elderly that he never built. And that's what got him ultimately into trouble in federal court. All about the money, Art Harris. Remember, I think you were in the courtroom when he kind of got under counsel table and crawled into a fetal position. That's right. And they had to coax him out. Have some respect, man, for Pete's sake. He was practicing in the art of weeping from his TV shows, as was his nemesis, Jimmy Swagger. This was about, very different than his song, Godfathers of the Gospel,

about different TV preachers who bumped each other off with innuendos and sex scandals so they could grab their flock, their market share, and get even more money. You know what, Troy Slate? I was asking, something Art Harris said jogged my memory. I was asking Dr. Bethany Marshall why it's so upsetting when a pastor does something like this. It's called hypocrisy. It's hypocrisy. When you think about Swaggart, and I don't know what religion, if any, you have, Troy,

but this whole thing about, remember when Baker just said he relied on something in the New Testament that said the Lord wants your soul to prosper? That has nothing to do with your wallet. I mean, if you don't know the teaching, just look at Christ. He had a robe and a pair of sandals that somebody probably gave him for Pete's sake. That's it. He wandered from home to home preaching the gospel. He had nothing, nothing at all. That's the example, I think. But Troy, it's the hypocrisy that's so irritating that just shocks everyone. I understand that. And I understand that when people are putting money in the dishes for tithe or sending in donations.

It's called an offering plate, not a dish. You have just confirmed my suspicion that you do not have a religion. Because if you did, you would not call it a dish. But go ahead. Go ahead. I'm not judging. Nancy, they don't have the offering plates at my temple here in Los Angeles. But anyhow, they don't have a dish either.

But Nancy, Nancy, the idea is the same. And I understand that when people are offering money and giving money, donating money to the church in whatever way that they do it, they expect that it's going to be used for charitable purposes. The organization is tax exempt under 501c3, which means that they don't pay taxes. You can't tax God. And that's the way our government has it set up. But the church needs to keep very careful records of where every single dollar goes. And there's nothing that says that the pastors or anyone that works

for the church can't have a high salary. There's nothing that says that they can't be paid very well for their work. And so I want them to be paid because what they do is so important in our world. But you remember this phrase. I'll throw this one to you, Tanya Levin. Author was inside of Hillsong. Author of People in Glass Houses, Inside a Story of Life In and Out of Hillsong. Give to Rome that which is Rome's Caesar, and give to the Lord that which is the Lord. And Christ specifically removed himself from money matters, except, do you remember, Tanya,

the parable of the widow's might the widow who had nothing goes up to the front and drops in the equivalent of about a half a penny and the rich guy showed off by putting in a lot of money and christ said her might meant more to the lord than the rich guy's treasure trove because it was all she had. So here we see a complete distortion of that very basic premise, according to reports. Yeah, I mean, the whole thing is completely back to the front. When I began researching to have a look at what, you know, was different between Hillsong and the Gospels it was like every single line they were just doing the opposite with you know the way that people dress and the way they they show off but I think another really important thing to talk about is that these guys actually don't do any charity so what they will do is they will rely on volunteers and donations.

So if there's a Christmas hamper going out with Hillsong's name on it, there were volunteers that donated the content, volunteers that put it together, volunteers that will distribute that. So they're never really using their tithes for anything charitable. And that's the truth of it. They really don't deserve a tax-free status at all. I cannot find an example in the research of anywhere where they actually use church funding towards helping anybody, apart from mobilizing volunteers. Yes, I hear Dr. Bethany.

And by the way, everybody, Dr. Bethany, not only psychoanalyst to the stars, but also her parents were missionaries. They've lived the missionary lifestyle of having so little. You know, Bethany, what Tanya Levin is saying is so integral to so many church foundations. You know, I'm a Methodist. We're all about love. Yes. And in every Methodist church I've ever been to, at the top of the budget is missions.

And every church needs to hit that missions quota of whatever they take in. And it is guarded and it is watched by the hierarchy of the Methodist church. I mean, whether it goes to hurricane relief or children in need, it has to go to missions and that's very carefully watched. It is earmarked, Nancy. I remember once a man in the congregation bought my father a suit and I was like maybe 11 or 12 years old. And I couldn't figure out why somebody was buying my father a suit so he could wear to preach in the pulpit. And then I realized for the first time it's because our family didn't have money and that we were reliant. My dad was getting paid a good salary by the Baptist church,

but also people in the congregation wanted to help out in some way. So it was so different from what you're seeing with Hillsong Church. You know, Nancy, we've covered so many cults over the years where there's a hierarchical organization. People at the top are segregated from people at the bottom. And there's a rampant sex culture. And we eventually assume, well, this is just a sex cult. In this case, this church seems to be a money cult. In fact, I don't think we should really call it a church. I'm thinking that we should call it a Ponzi scheme or something other than a church.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, we're talking about the Hillside Mega Church and its pastor, its Hillsong, excuse me, its pastor, Carl Lentz. An affair has been uncovered. Is there just one or are there more? Just one, just one that we know of. Many, many. Okay, that shows what you know, Jackie, although I said it. You were pulling the strings.

Is that Tanya Levin jumping in or Hannah Frishberg? This is me, Tanya. Hi. Jump in, Tanya. I'm just so grateful to hear somebody saying that, you know, this place is not a church. It's got nothing to do with religion. They just throw in a few Bible verses to support it. It is no different to Coca-Cola or any kind of multinational corporation

that's making money out of people's feelings. These guys just use a couple of Bible verses to prop them up. It's a Ponzi scheme, 100%. It's a cult. You know, Art Harris um that hurts me i mean that's why we say we practice christianity because i for one i'm really not very good at it but it hurts me to see christ or the bible used this way? Nancy, these people put themselves on a pulpit and the followers are so brainwashed by their gospel of send me money, you will go to heaven. It is such an old recycled con game that they're the ones ultimately who are devastated like you when they give somebody their trust and they're let down.

That's because they put man on a pedestal and they should be looking a little higher. You know, something curious about you, Art Harris, you're always right up in all these pastors that are with hookers and running around. I may put you and Bethany up after the program to try to figure out what that's all about. Hannah Frishberg joining me

for the New York Post. She's the features reporter there. And I love her. Hannah, what's happening next? Is there an investigation going on? I mean, I can't stop a pastor from cheating. I can't.

But that's not breaking the law. And I'm certainly not the church lady. I only care when it's a crime, specifically a felony. Is there an investigation going on? How did these Hillsong congregants come to you? How did they find you? What were they saying? Most people just found me over Instagram.

My DMs are open and they just sent over messages after I started initially covering Carl Lentz's firing as an assignment and said, there's a lot more here and we'd like to tell you about it. There is not an investigation on a legal level as far as I'm currently aware. But I did receive screenshots of an email this morning from Brian Houston to the congregation, flatly denying everything. That's his strategy. He just flatly denies everything. He just tweeted a few minutes ago, flatly denying the $20 million lawsuit in Australia. This is how he handled the allegation.

What $20 million lawsuit? how he handled the allegations what 20 million dollar lawsuit oh in australia the hillsong property arm was involved in the construction of a variety of buildings residential in roseberry australia that were built shoddily and the tenants there are suing because they bought these just under a million dollar units that are appear to be worthless and structurally unsound. But Hillsong is now reciprocally, Hillsong is now suing the company that is being sued. So it's just, they just respond with aggression and denial consistently. And I want to emphasize that as- And moving the money out of the account, by the way.

Was that you, Tanya? Oh, yeah. Hi. Actually, the company that paid for those buildings to be built has now said that that particular bank account that they used is now empty. They've moved all of the assets out of that company that built those apartments. That reminds me of when I used to work with the Federal Trade Commission in their antitrust and consumer protection divisions. I would go after one guy that was selling some zany diet aid, making thousands and thousands of dollars a week. And by the time I would get there, they would have already closed down that corporation and they were doing it under another name and then another name.

And you could hardly catch them. And that's the federal government. It wasn't just me, Nancy. It was the federal trade commission trying to stop that wow okay so that's happening i didn't know exactly how they're behaving they've got so many i mean hannah will tell you they've got so many different companies and they just move assets around um yes internationally so you know it's, you know, it's... You know, it's almost enough to make you turn your back on a church, but I am not doing that.

The devil is not getting the best of me today. The devil is not getting the best of us today. You know, this is not the first time a pastor has an affair. And Troy Slayton, I'm sure you recall the New Jersey rabbi, very influential, Rabbi Fred Newlander, in a very, very wealthy synagogue, cheating over and over and over on his wife, ultimately murdering his wife, and he got convicted.

So cheating with your congregants is nothing new. Absolutely not. And that rabbi hired two men to kill his wife in a murder for hire plot. And so he's exactly where he deserves to be, which is serving a life sentence in prison. And so when people put, whether it be their rabbi, their priest, their pastor, their minister, up on a pedestal and give them their hard-earned money, they believe that they're doing it for some sort of good purpose. They feel better in donating that money to their temple, their church, and they expect the money is going to be used for a good purpose. And that's where the potential crime is. It's in misappropriation of funds, misuse of tax-exempt status, fraud, embezzlement. Those are the potential crimes. But there is no crime in

getting paid a high salary from the religious organization. Well, you're right about that. And if this pastor, Carl Lentz, had an affair, since I'm spouting off the little bit of scripture that I've memorized, I know under his and my religion, he is to be forgiven. Now, being forgiven and being sentenced under the law for a crime are two very different things. So, Tonya Levin and Hannah Frishberg, Tonya, author of the book, People in Glass Houses, Insider Story to a Life in and Out of Hillsong, Hannah Frishberg with the

New York Post, Tonya Levin having an affair, and right now he's only accused of one affair. He and his wife are trying to patch their marriage back together. That's not a crime. And again, the Hillsong congregation, the church, is denying any wrongdoing. But if tithe money was used to fund a lavish lifestyle, that is going to be a crime. If it's true, Tanya. Oh, it's 100% true. I mean, it's the way they've operated since, I guess, if they very first got a taste of Americana.

This was a very small church up until the late 80s when they saw what was happening in the United States and they wanted some of that for themselves and since then they've been pursuing the dollar relentlessly you know and Carl was just a product of that system. Well Anne-Hannah Frishberg. Yeah that's been one of the most interesting things that my sources have told me about Hillsong culture is that when they were going to church in Sydney, it was mostly just local rugby players who were the big celebrities there. create this absolute religious celebrity behemoth, which is got a huge magnetic pull for people and their money and is just wildly toxic. As of right now, Lentz and Hillsong deny any and all wrongdoing. Let me be clear about that. We wait as this story unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Amen.