Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Precious brothers 3 and 4 years old VANISH!

Episode Date: January 5, 2021

The adoptive parents of 3-year-old Orson West and 4-year-old his brother Orrin, send the boys outside to play just days before Christmas. Mom is inside wrapping presents. The brothers haven't been seen since. The dad was outside collecting firewood when he says he couldn't see the boys. After confirming the boys weren't inside the home, a frantic search began. Joining Nancy Grace today: Marc Klaas - Founder, Klaas Kids Foundation www.klaaskids.org Kathleen Murphy - North Carolina, Family Attorney, www.ncdomesticlaw.com   Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga www.angelaarnoldmd.com  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network  Bayan Wang, Reporter 23ABC News Bakersfield Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Two beautiful little boys, ages three and four, missing. I hate to hit you with the bad news at the beginning of the new year, but the search for missing children goes on 24-7, 365, including today. Let's take a listen to this. You said you were searching for two missing boys, ages three and four. The children, Orson West and Oren West, were last seen in the 10,700 block of Aspen Avenue. They're described as African-American, about three feet tall, both wearing black sweatshirts and gray sweatpants. You were just hearing our friends at KGET 17 News. That was Taylor Schaub.

And what Taylor Schaub said breaks my heart because I'm thinking of my children, John, David, and Lucy, at age three, they're twins, at three feet tall. These two wearing black sweatshirts and gray sweatpants. Now, how does not one little child disappear, say at the shopping mall or at the playground? How do two of them just disappear? With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again, let me tell you first a name you know very well, a hero and advocate, Mark Klass, the founder of Klass Kids Foundation, who's devoted his life to finding missing people, especially children, at the disappearance of his little girl, Polly. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina trial lawyer at ncdomesticlaw.com. Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at AngelaArnoldMD.com.

You know this name very well. Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute and crime scene expert, Joseph Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network. But first, we're going to a special guest joining us, Bayan Wang with 23 ABC in Bakersville. You know, Bayan, first of all, thank you for being with us. I've covered so many missing people cases, especially children, and investigated them as a felony prosecutor in inner city Atlanta. And I usually see one child missing, one person missing. It's very rare, very rare indeed, Bayan, for two children to go missing at the same time.

And it brings to mind, for instance, two little children playing in the front yard and they decide to walk down the street and then they're missing. Or two children getting away from mommy at the shopping mall. I want to hear exactly what you can tell me surrounding the facts of this case, Bayan Wang, because every fact, every single fact means something, including the time of the day, daylight or dark, the type of neighborhood, residential, apartment, tree-lined, business district, shopping mall, every single thing matters. So, Bayan Wang, first of all, tell me about the area. Where did they go missing? They went missing in California City. That's a population of about 14,000. It's surrounded by hundreds of miles of desert. It's the third largest land area in California. What do you mean the third largest

land area? I mean, the whole state of California is land. What do you mean by the third largest? Listen, Bayon, I appreciate your details, but I'm just a trial lawyer. You have to break it down for people like me. What do you mean the third largest land area? Well, Nancy, this community is in the middle of the Mojave Desert. I mean, you just go on Google Maps and you look at it and there's hundreds of miles of desert, a lot of it unoccupied. So this small township, you know, the community, you could imagine this case weighing in on their hearts. They are desperate to find these little guys. And you know what else they are weighing? Joining me, 23 ABC. I took the twins, well,

on many RV trips, but one of them, we went through the Mojave Desert. And I remember stopping, you know, when you go in a federal park or national forest, there's always a big sign. You're entering whatever, Smoky Mountain National Forest. And I remember you're entering the Mojave Desert sign and we jumped out of the RV and took a picture with it. And then we drove and we drove and we drove and did not see a thing. Hold on, Beyond Wayne, because I want to go to our expert Mark Klass, founder of Klass Kids at KlassKids.org. Mark, that presents a big problem. First of all, you've got a very small town. Bigger than where I grew up, Mark Klass, but still 14,000 rules out to an extent like strangers passing through.

But then remember, Mark Klass, Liberty and Abigail out in a park in Delphi, very small town, and they think it was a stranger. But you've got that factor, Mark Klass, combined with, as Bayon Wang just told us, huge expanse of desert. Nobody living there. That presents a problem, Mark Klass, to find this three and four-year-old little boy. Indeed it does, Nancy. To preface this, I'd like to say that, you know, even with COVID going around the world like it is and really restricting everybody's movements, Class Kids Foundation has had our busiest year ever with missing child cases. So this is a crime that endures and just keeps getting worse and worse and worse. Now, back to what you said, you know, there's generally about 105 to 115 stereotypical kidnappings in the United States in a given year.

And when I say stereotypical stranger kidnappings, I mean somebody coming out of absolutely nowhere and taking the children. And in the vast majority of those cases, there's only one child involved. And more often than not, it would be a girl between 6 and 12 years old okay wait wait you got me drinking out of the fire hydrant it's too much too fast hold on i'm taking in everything you're saying which contradicts everything about this case that bayan wang is telling us and he's absolutely correct okay let me pick it up from where you dropped off that that much is soaked in go ahead Well, so we're in a situation here where, as Bayan said, you know, you've got a massive landmass and you've got, whether it's above ground and they're thriving someplace or whether harm has been done to them and they've been buried.

Now, the way you say that, Mark Klass, it just, you know, trills off the tip of your tongue because you're used to it, saying that a three- and a four-year-old little child could be buried somewhere. But for people that don't deal with it every day, like you do, like I do, like everybody on this panel does, that's a tough, that's a tough pill to swallow what you said, but you're absolutely correct. We're talking about two little children, just three and four years old. Straight back to you, Bayan Wang, 23 ABC News. Okay, we went off on a tangent, but that was important because if these children are somehow, Bayan, out in the middle or even at the edge of this desert, if somehow they've gotten there, it's over. They cannot survive.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, the tip line regarding these two little children missing is 760-373-8606. Repeat, 760-373-8606. Back to you by Yon Wang, reporter 23 ABC. I get the area. Were they in a home, an apartment, a mall? What can you tell me about that? Yeah, so they were reported missing out of their home. Their adoptive parents, Jacqueline and Trezell West, reported them missing from their home. Essentially, they say that the kids were playing with chalk in their backyard, not in the front yard, in the backyard of their home, and then boom, they suddenly disappeared. The father, Trezellell says he was essentially gathering wood to start a fire while the mother was wrapping christmas presents for the boys

now hold on 23 abc do you have children uh not yet okay listen to me you'll find out about this uh jackie back me up on this when When you're wrapping or preparing Christmas gifts, you want the children to be somewhere else. And I'm not going to go into why, because it's very mysterious. But it's my understanding the mom was wrapping Christmas gifts. She sent three and four-year-old Orson and Orrin outside. The dad was collecting firewood for a fireplace. I mean, you know, Cheryl McCollum, founder, director, Cold Case Research Institute. It sounds like a Christmas card, really.

Building a fire in the fireplace, wrapping Christmas presents, sending the two little boys outside the place. They don't see what's getting wrapped. And then all of a sudden, they're gone. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Cheryl. It's all too perfect. The minute I heard it, what leaked out at me is mom's wrapping Christmas gifts, and daddy is starting a fire, and the children are doing artwork.

That is bogus. Oh, I don't know what planet you come from, but that's exactly what we do around Christmas. And I try everything I can think of to get the children to go somewhere other than where I am because I'm working on you know what. But hold on. I hear what you're saying, Cheryl McCollum. So, Bayan, am I right that mom was wrapping Christmas gifts? Nancy, that's what we're being told. Bayan, am I right that mom was wrapping Christmas gifts? Nancy, that's what we're being told. The parents, that's right. The mother said she was wrapping Christmas gifts

during the time the boys went missing. Okay, so what time of the day or night was it? The father says it was between 4 30 and 5 o'clock in here in the west coast. That's, you know, sun setting at that point. To you, Mark Klaas, you're joining us from California. Is that right? It's dark by 430? Yes. No, it's not dark at 430, but the sun does go down between 430 and 5. It gets very cold and very dark very quickly after that. So it's getting dark. Now, Jackie is waving at me frantically to clear up. There are other children in the home, but mom only sent out these two to go play. Well, that makes perfect sense to me. When I'm wrapping Christmas gifts, I don't send David out to go play.

I don't send grandmommy out to go play because I'm not hiding anything from them, Jackie. So, you know, it depends on the age of the children who get sent away when you're prepping Christmas. You know. Well, guys. Jump in. Well, guys, it's actually, sorry, it's important to mention that the parents' other four children were not home at the time. The parents say they were on vacation. Are you happy now?

You're happy? She's happy. Okay. So that's not an issue. Guys. Hey, Nancy, I've got to jump in. Jump. Because I want to make sure what I was trying to say is very clear.

It was all too perfect. And again, at 4.30 in the afternoon, number one, you can wait to wrap gifts at 11 o'clock at night when all the babies are asleep. You don't know that. And I'm just sure you can. No, you do not know that. If you think you've got a 30-minute segment where you can wrap Christmas gifts surreptitiously, then you jump on it. Look, you know what?

Our household is so crazy. I was hiding and wrapping at all times of the day and night, morning, noon. For instance, when Amazon would come by at 11 a.m., you know I was scrambling. So, I mean, I don't know how they did it, how this is all wrapped up together, but I do know this, what Mark Kly said at the beginning, very, very unusual for two children to go missing at the same time. Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, do you at least agree with that much? Well, yeah. I mean, it can be if you're wrapping gifts, it can you know, it can be a situation where you want to do it as discreetly as you possibly can. But back to what Bayan had said, he was very specific, Nancy, about these babies. He didn't say anything about the front yard.

He said the backyard. And I think from an investigative standpoint, I'm thinking about this and I'm thinking, who has access to the backyard in this case? And what's the configuration of the backyard in this case? And what's what's the configuration of the backyard? You know, you go a lot of places. I'm looking at the house right now and the street is wide open to the front yard. I see a few homes that have, for instance, a wrought iron gate in the front yard. But you can get right in through the driveway.

And it's one of those residential suburban areas where behind your backyard is another house, and behind that one is another house. If you looked at it from above, I mean, there are thousands of houses that stretch out. So that's a good point. By Yon Wang, guys, we're getting into the details for a reason. I mean, Mark Glass, every detail matters. Would you agree with that? Of course, every detail matters. I mean, somebody else's backyard butts up to their backyard.

You know what I'm saying? You remember when Isabel Solis went missing? Yep. That was in a suburban neighborhood and they had the big, solid fence surrounding their backyard and a gate to go into it. We've had so many cases where people's yards were totally enclosed, but somehow the children went missing. Do I have to say Elizabeth Smart? She had this beautiful home her family lived in somebody managed to get the children so it happens in all sorts of ways the mom and dad jump in you talked about how important the details are here and talking about those enclosed

backyards well an important note here is that the father says the panic set in when he noticed that he left the gate open. OK, I hear you. I did not know that. Guys, take a listen to our friends at ABC 23. Trezell West details the moment his two adopted boys, three-year-old Orson and four-year-old Oren, went missing Monday night from their California city home. Moments before, West says he was gathering wood to start a fire. I went up to that gate. I'm throwing wood, bringing it inside the house. My wife's inside. She was actually wrapping gifts, so we thought it was a good idea that they, that our youngest two, go outside and play with chalk on the back patio. Shortly after, West says he no longer saw the boys on the patio.

He asked his wife, Jacqueline, if she saw them. She said no. That's when he says panic set in. I realized that I left the gate open and I panicked, came inside the house, searched the house, me and my wife. Once that hadn't pan out, I got in the van. I looked down the street in both directions. It was getting dark, getting cold. West said he then called the police within minutes. Since then, California City Police, the FBI and the Kern County Sheriff's Office have been investigating.

And also take a listen to Travell West speaking. Take a listen. It was cold. I was going to make a fire. It's a lot of wood in this area right here next to our house. I went up to that gate. I'm throwing wood, bringing it inside the house. My wife's inside. She was actually wrapping gifts, so we thought it was a good idea that they that our youngest two go outside and play with chalk on the back patio do not let them go on the dirt in the backyard and keep them close i was playing with chalk and i came in the house i saw them there in one house i came back out i didn't see him now i immediately went back in asked my wife did you see the boys?

She said, no, they should be outside playing with chalk. I said, well, I didn't see them. So I came back outside and I started searching my backyard. I searched the whole thing. You're hearing the adopted dad of these two little children, ages three and four. I mean, how far could they get on their own? It's getting dark. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We're talking about the disappearance

of a three- and four-year-old set of brothers, Orson and Oren West. What happened as Christmas approaches? Take a listen to our friends at 23 ABC News. This is Bane Froney speaking with neighbors. There isn't too much information about what happened to these young boys, but one thing is for sure. The California city community is worried, scared and angry. Search helicopters came out. About 100 people gathered to search the surrounding area,

knocking on doors. Three and four-year-olds Oren and Orson West were reported missing on Monday night around 5 p.m. And when I got it, they still hadn't been found. Jennifer Wood resumed her search efforts Tuesday after looking all Monday night for the missing boys as she fears for their safety. These are two little boys. They're about three feet tall. And if they're out there, they're scared. Of course they are. I mean, to you, Mark Klass, on foot, how far could a three and four year old get even in a residential area in a paved street? I mean, how far could they get? They're not going to be able to get very far. And the whole idea of little children wandering off as it gets cold and dark from their home is a pretty hard pill to swallow. But I think what we have to consider is the local

sex offenders in the community, people that know the family, that intermingle with the family. You never know where the evil might come from. I mean, there's all kinds of possibilities out there. One of the things I've noticed recently, Nancy, is that there are more people driving around neighborhoods that aren't their neighborhoods delivering packages now than ever before. It seems like almost every other car is delivering a package. We don't know who the people are who are driving these vans oftentimes. So, you know, the possibilities of what happened to these children, I think, are vast at this point. Mark, let me tell you what happened to Lucy and me the other night. We went out walking. We loved to go on walks with our little dog,

fat boy. And it got dark while we were out. We waited too late. And we always hear of the stereotypical white van. And lo and behold, a white van, you know, everything rushing through my mind, begins to creep along behind us. And I didn't want to say anything to Lucy, so we kept walking, and I was picking up the pace. We were a good mile away from home. And it stayed. And finally, I said, let's turn around. And we abruptly turned around and started walking the other way away from the van, as you know, you're supposed to do if you think you're being, you know, a child should

run the opposite way. And we kept walking. Well, lo and behold, Mark Klass, five minutes hadn't passed until there was the white van. And it was a guy I'd never seen in the neighborhood before. And he was looking at us. And I said, Lucy, run to the house right now. And she took off. It was a delivery person, long story short. And he was lost. He was lost, just wandering around. And I then spotted him turn on his lamp on the inside

of the van and looking for directions. And I could actually hear him putting an address into ways or something. So it was much ado about nothing. But long story short, you're right. You're absolutely right. How quickly could someone be taken in a vehicle and be gone 60 miles an hour? But it's somebody within the neighborhood. I mean, the stories I just threw out, true cases of Isabel Solis was someone the family knew. And Elizabeth Smart, it was someone, the perp was introduced into the family. It was a day laborer that they hired to try to help out the family and help him out.

So there is a connection. They knew about the children, right? There's almost always a connection. Almost always a connection. Guys, we're talking about the disappearance of these two little children. What did the dad do? Take a listen now to what Travell West's dad says. I realized that I left the gate open and I panicked, came inside the house,

searched the house, me and my wife. Once that hadn't pan out, I got in the van. I looked down the street, most directions. It was getting dark, getting cold. And I got in the van and I hit a bunch of corners. I went down t my light on, I searched, their names, talked to a street on the other side see. So then I came home wife, we need to call the

dark and I need help. We So I called the cops, cop they did was tell us to s in the house so they can get a hold of us. And they had us just sitting there and we wanted to keep searching. You know, we've heard a lot from the dad, but now take a listen to mom. They said that she said she was wrapping gifts and she let my two kids out in the backyard because she didn't want them to see the gifts. But you didn't let the other kids out. Where were the other kids? Why my two just go in the backyard because she didn't want them to see the gifts but you didn't let the other kids out where were the other kids why my two just go back there at night she said it was

dark and it's cold right now so i know it was cold then so i don't believe it so when did she tell you this where were you when she told you this i just came here 45 minutes when nobody was here, 45 minutes to an hour, and we knocked on the door. And it took them a minute to come, and he came out. And he wanted to say he's sorry and all that. I just don't feel in my heart that it's something. They're not. Do you have a relationship with these parents? I don't know them.

I don't know them. I don't know them. They did something. Justine, you're hearing from the bio mom. The bio mom. Now, she doesn't have custody of her children. But now she is appearing, casting doubt on the adoptive parents. What more do we know? What more do we know? What more do we know?

Take a listen to David Kaplan at Fox 58. Trezell, Jacqueline West, and their six kids lived at Casa Loma apartments here in Bakersfield across the street from where I'm at. They moved from here to California City in September. This afternoon, around 40 people used drones, dogs, trash picker rubbers, and their eyes and feet to look for any sign of Orrin and Orson West. The four- and three-year-old's parents say they last saw them in their backyard in California City around 5 p.m. on December 21st. California City police say they have talked to every neighbor on that street and they all say they never saw the boys there.

That's why concerned community members wanted to continue the search efforts from the desert in California City to Bakersfield. We're trying to cover the grounds, you know, to help give law enforcement, you know, that may be shorthanded, you know, a hand. Hope is never lost now. No, never lost. Hope is never lost now. No, never lost. Hope never lost. I want to go to our cut five.

This is Alex Bell at 23 ABC. And the search continues for two toddlers from California City who were reported missing on Monday night. And now the FBI is involved in the search as well as the Kern County Sheriff's Office. Three and four-year-olds Oren and Orson West who are on your screen right now, they were reported missing around 5 p.m. yesterday. A search warrant was served at their foster parents house today in

Cal City and the foster parents are still at police headquarters as of Tuesday answering questions. Cal City police say that the parents are being cooperative and that law enforcement is not giving up on finding the toddlers. Police also say investigators are doing forensics exams on items taken out of the home today. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about two missing children, ages just three and four. And these two little boys go missing from their own home. Let me give you the tip line yet again in the hopes that someone somewhere may have seen something. 760-373-8606. Tell me about the search. Joining me from ABC 23 is Bayan Wang. Tell me what all has been done to find the children. Oh man, Nancy. I mean, this community has really come together we're talking about

multiple searches um two ten thousand dollar rewards i mean these guys are scavenging the desert themselves um going you know essentially through every neighborhood in that area unfortunately though there's been absolutely no sign of the boys. And I think earlier in the show, you guys were talking about the significance of what a large area this is, this sprawling desert that surrounds this community. Well, it's important to note that police themselves, none of the authorities, the FBI, none of them, have started their search in the desert. And that has caused a huge question in the community. You know, what is it exactly that they know that isn't leading them to search this sprawling desert? You would think

your natural instinct would be, hey, let's go see if they could possibly be anywhere out there, whether they wandered off or whether their bodies end up and you know ended up out there but that's not the case essentially the police chief for the california city police department said hey look our investigation hasn't led us there right now our focus is on the home we have absolutely no idea how these boys got out of the backyard well we're hearing what the parents are saying, but following up on what Bayan just said, I find this very troubling. Take a listen to our cut seven. This is Bayan speaking 23 ABC. A lot of neighbors told me that the parents have been virtually absent from all search efforts, raising a lot of concern out here in California City.

But the adoptive parents told me that's because they've been busy with the police investigation and that police told them that they don't need to be out there searching because there's already an adequate amount of people doing so. Straight back to Mark Klass, founder of Klass Kids Foundation. You know, Mark Klass, I understand they're saying the cops told him to stay in the house. I would find that very, very difficult to do. If one of my children went missing, I've told you about the episode

when John David disappeared inside a giant toys, a Baby's Arrest warehouse. I would find it very hard to control myself and not go looking, Mark Class. I mean, if you don't mind, would you recount what you did

when Polly went missing? Well, I pulled out all the stops, Nancy. And one of the first things I did is tell the FBI and the Petaluma police that I'd be willing to sit for a polygraph. And I think a lot of clarity could be brought to this case if they would simply polygraph the two parents. Then they'll know either if they are involved or if they need to

look elsewhere. But I also find it problematic, Nancy, that law enforcement doesn't seem to have conducted any searches whatsoever in this case. It seems to be all community-led searches. And the problem with that is that they don't really know what they're looking for. They're not professional at it. And if they did turn up with some kind of a clue, they might overlook it altogether. And or they might somehow defile the clue by touching it or moving it or otherwise getting involved with it.

So there's a lot of issues outstanding right now. And hopefully there will be some clarity brought to it sooner rather than later. I find that unusual as well. Is that true? Briefly, Bayon Wang, 23 ABC, is it true that's mostly volunteers looking for the children? That is true. I confirm. Yes. I don't like that at all. And I also noticed the FBI is involved. You don't normally see the FBI jumping in on a missing person's case.

I want you to take a listen to our friends at KGET 17. Perla Shaheen, listen. California City Police say they searched this house last night with canines. The canines were looking for the scent of the two boys inside. They smelled the scent inside the house, but they didn't smell it leaving the house. So police are concerned that the children never even left the house. About an hour ago, Cal City police drove the father and mother away. They weren't in handcuffs and went willingly with police, but police would not confirm why they took the mother and father away. Dozens of residents drove and walked around this home last night looking for the two boys.

Right now, many of them are still out here waiting for an update from police. Many came out again today to continue the search. So far, they've found nothing. Police told the parents to stay inside their house. Okay, I'm hearing somebody. I'm not sure who that was, but I want to go jump in. That was me, Nancy. Mark Klass.

Well, the whole idea of letting other people tell you how to handle your missing child case, I think, raises a lot of issues. Your inclination when your child is missing is to get out there and absolutely do something, which is what I did, which is what the Smart family did, which is what so many families did. And the whole idea that you would hunker into the house only leads people to believe that you are hiding something. And when that perception takes hold in the community, then it becomes problematic yet again, because people are going, well, what are they hiding? They're not coming out. They're not talking to anybody. They're not involved in the searches. There's something that seems very wrong with that. And I personally agree that it does seem very wrong. Take a listen to our cut for this is Bain Froney at 23 ABC.

The toddlers believed to be at their foster parents house in California City was the set meeting point for another search party on Tuesday. Lamia Patrick, a California City resident, also told 23 ABC that the believed-to-be foster parents have not come out of the household, besides to speak to law enforcement. He came out and spoke to the police, but he did not come out and greet the people who are trying to help find the babies. Parents haven't come out to say boo or hi or thank you for helping or anything. 23 ABC did speak with the believed-to-be foster father of the two missing boys, but declined an interview and wished to keep his name private. He said the police were asking that they stay inside and wait.

You know what is disturbing me more than the parents being told to stay in the home and don't go out and search? And them doing it is the fact to you, Cheryl McCollum, director of Cold Case Research Institute. You know, I'm a great believer in tracker dogs. In fact, I've told you many, many times, Cheryl McCollum, one of the best witnesses I've ever put on the stand was a dog. The tracker dogs go in, they smell the scent of the children in the home, but they can't pick up the children leaving the home, Cheryl. That's a great concern, Nancy, because again, in a missing child case, you've got four lanes that you're investigating at all times, and you're doing it simultaneously. You're obviously looking at the parent.

You're looking at, is this a stranger abduction? You're going to look at, is this an acquaintance? Is there somebody in the neighborhood the children knew and went to that home? Or are the children lost or hurt? It looks like law enforcement has already gotten rid of the lost or hurt avenue. They don't believe that it's a stranger because they're, again, not moving away from that backyard. The father himself repeated the word dirt more than once. He said backyard, backyard, and then he said search the backyard. I think he basically told law enforcement where to start. Way in to Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina trial lawyer at ncdomesticlaw.com.

Jump in, Kathleen. Nancy, as a mother, just as a mother, not even as a trial lawyer, you would not have my eyes off of a 3-year-old and a four-year-old in that backyard area. I don't know how close the father was, but it does not add up. Everything that Cheryl has said, everything Mark has said, everything Byron has said, everything you've said, it does not add up. And I'm very sad right now. To Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist out of Atlanta, the parents are saying law enforcement told them to stay inside and don't go looking.

What do you make of it? It just seems, that just seems so odd. I'll tell you one of the other things that struck me too, Nancy. This whole thing that we have to look at them on TV with masks covering their faces. Right. How often do we look at people on the news and everybody can sort of tell, are they telling the truth? Are they not telling the truth? But now these people's entire faces are covered with a mask and you can't tell anything about their initial reaction. And that is very bothersome to me because that's, I feel like there's so much information that can be

garnered from that. And it's all a blank slate at this point. Mayan Wang, Reporter 23 ABC, where does the search stand right now? Well, multiple community efforts, you know, obviously authorities aren't telling us what they're doing, you know, behind closed doors. But, you know, the community searched Bakersfield as well, which we're learning the adoptive parents lived in Bakersfield prior to moving California City. So the community is out there also doing, you know, various searches. That's the latest that we have on the search front. Tip line 760-373-8606. Please help us bring Orson and Oren home. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.