Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Precious TWINS found dead in TRASH

Episode Date: March 3, 2021

On June 6, 2003, the bodies of newborn twins were found by a waste management employee emptying residential trash bins. The medical examiner determines that the boys were born alive. The search for the mother took more than 17 years to solve.Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Troy Slaten - Criminal Defense Attorney, Los Angeles California  Dr. Jeff Gardere - Board Certified Clinical Psychologist, Prof of Behavioral Medicine at Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine www.drjeffgardere.com, Author: 'The Causes of Autism” @drjeffgardere  Karen L. Smith - Forensic Expert, Bare Bones Consulting Podcast: “Shattered Souls” Dr. Kendall Crowns – Deputy Medical Examiner Travis County, Texas (Austin) Shera LaPoint - Genetic Genealogist, Founder, The Gene Hunter www.TheGeneHunter.com, Twitter: @LapointShera  Ray Caputo - Lead News Anchor for Orlando's Morning News, 96.5 WDBO TIPLINE: Childhelp National Child Abuse Hotline 800-4-A-CHILD  800-422-4453 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When you drive down your suburban road, you very often see the garbage guys and garbage ladies as they are doing the dirty work of throwing your trash away. But imagine how they felt when instead of seeing trash tumbling in and out of their truck, they see the bodies of two tiny infants, newborns, literally thrown away like trash. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What happened?

That's the big question. Joining me right now, an all-star panel to make sense of it all. First of all, Troy Slayton, renowned criminal defense attorney, joining us out of L.A. You can find him on Twitter at Troy Slayton, board-certified clinical psychologist, professor of behavioral medicine at Truro, author of The Causes of Autism. You can find him at drjeffgardier.com. Genetic genealogist, the gene hunter at thegenehunter.com. Cheryl LaPointe joining us, forensics expert, host of brand new hit podcast, Shattered Souls. Karen Smith, forensics expert. Dr. Kendall Crowns,

deputy medical examiner, Travis County, Texas. That's Austin joining us. But first, to Ray Caputo, lead news anchor, WDBO. Ray, thank you for being with us. Before we get started, take a listen to our friend Angie Marie at True Crime. A waste management employee was emptying trash bins in the 4800 block of South Latrobe Avenue in Stickney Township. This is when she saw something odd mixed in with the trash that was tumbling out of the trash can and into the trash truck receptacle. Upon closer examination, she discovered an absolutely gruesome scene. The lifeless bodies of two sweet, innocent newborn baby boys. They'd been thrown out like they were trash. Thrown out literally as trash.

Can you imagine what that poor person went through, seeing that will stick with them for the rest of their lives? Hold on, Troy Slayton, I don't know about you, but I remember the moment that I decided I've got to get a new job in the DA's office. It was I was prosecuting a serial killer. We got him on one murder. And very often as a finale, either at the close of the day or before the jury would retire for lunch or at the end of the trial, I would put on a slideshow. Typically, the witness to identify each slide would be either the medical examiner, that's where you would come in, Dr.

Kendall Crowns, or the lead detective who can testify lawfully to hearsay as to what went on in the investigation. So the lights would be out totally. There'd be complete silence. You know how many times I would practice that slideshow, Troy Slayton, because there's nothing like a technical malfunction in the middle of your slideshow to kind of ruin the moment. Lights off. I had walked up to the screen to point out with my hand different things that were evidentiary of evidentiary importance. And I came to an autopsy photo, as I recall, and I was right there at the screen in the dark. And I just looked at it. And I remember it was a veteran trial judge on the bench who said, Miss Grace, because I had stopped. And I knew in that moment, I needed to do something else because the weight of all the literally thousands of cases was just backbreaking. So when you get to a moment like

this in a trial or a case is something that sticks with you forever. Here we've got these garbage guys see two infants, newborns, dead, tumbling out of the trash. It's a horrific incident, and it's something that will stick with them and everybody involved in the case for the rest of their lives. And justice delayed in a case like this does not always mean justice denied. You're right. Troy Slayton, do you have cases that have a moment in them, something you've defended or investigated that you have never forgotten? There are some things in criminal law, Nancy, as you well know, that you can never unsee. Judges talk about in court that you can't unring a bell. You can't unsee certain things. There are photographs that I have seen that have never made their way into a courtroom that I've successfully kept out of evidence because the only purpose for

the prosecutor to show them to the jury would be to inflame their passions and prejudices. Some pictures that were so awful that the only purpose would be to make the jury angry. Well, of course, according to you, and if it's a photo of a crime scene, then it is likely a truthful and accurate portrayal of what was seen there at the crime. But just because it was so upsetting, it made you upset. You knew it would make the jury upset as it should have. But I get you. These things you don't just forget. Yes, but the purpose of showing something to a jury is to get to the truth.

But that's why we have the standard in the law where if something's probative value is significantly outweighed by its prejudicial effect, then it is not admissible. Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? Because we haven't even gotten to if there were photos or any evidence other than the testimony of these garbage guys. So, you know what? Bring it down a notch, Slayton. Back to Caputo. Ray, tell me about this location, Stickney Township. I know it's a little municipality in Illinois, right? Well, yeah, but it's a part of Chicago, Nancy.

And if you look at it on a map, it's right there by Chicago Midway Airport, like literally right on the outskirts of one of the edges of the airport. If you've ever lived in a city by an airport, you kind of understand the industrial type of area. Now, there are homes, but, you know but there's an airport, there's a big mail facility, there's car rental places. So I would consider it industrial, but also there are homes around the area. A lot of homes, a lot of residential areas. I'm looking at the town square there in Stickme Township. It's a population of about 41,000 at the last census, which is a small town, and that weighs into the investigation. I want to go straight out to Dr. Kendall Crowns, Deputy Medical Examiner, Chavez County. That's Austin. Dr. Crowns, how can you look at an infant

and immediately know it's a newborn? Well. John Baxter Well, there's a few things. Often with fetuses or brand newborns, they still have the umbilical cord attached. And as the baby develops, the umbilical cord actually dries up and falls out. But when they're brand newborn, the umbilical cord is kind of white and pearlish looking. So you know that they haven't been out of the womb, so to say, for very long when you see that. Back to you, Ray Caputo, Lee's News Anchor, WDBO. What was the condition of the bodies? Take a listen, Ray, to Angie Marie at True Crime. One of the babies still had his placenta attached to him and the other baby's placenta was found in a black shoe box near the baby. She immediately called 911 and so a long and

frustrating investigation began. Authorities went around to everyone in the area to see if anyone had seen or heard anything, but nobody had. They spoke to several pregnant women in the area, but unfortunately this was just another dead end. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111, imagine the shock of this garbage person. It's a woman, a garbage lady, when she sees not trash or soft drink containers or boxes or newspapers. She sees two tiny bodies pouring out of the trash, immediately calling 911, which leads to a long and frustrating investigation. Back to you, Dr. Kendall Crowns, one placenta was in a shoebox. One of the babies still had his placenta attached to him.

Two baby boys. What does that tell you, Dr. Kendall-Crowns? Well, again, the fact that the placenta is still intact or attached, it shows that the child was just freshly born. Because if you leave the placenta attached, it shows that the child was just freshly born because if you leave the placenta attached, they will have continual hemorrhage from the baby. Basically, when they take the baby out and they clamp the cord, that's to stop the blood coming out of the baby as well. So with the placenta still attached, you know, that kid didn't survive very long after birth.

Again, it shows that these were freshly born children. Two infant boys. Straight out to Karen Smith, forensics expert, host of Shattered Souls podcast, now starting its season two. Karen Smith, so many directions to go right now regarding evidence. For instance, fingerprints, a DNA on the body, fibers on the body, but the trash itself. What garbage was used to hide these infant baby boys? I mean, was it household trash? Was there a credit card receipt? Was there a fingerprint on a soda can?

There's just what direction do you go in on a scene like this, Karen? Nancy, this is one of those scenes that just gives me nightmares. No crime scene or homicide investigator ever wants to get a call like this. And you're right. You have a garbage can. You know, who knows what was what was in there besides these two poor little infant boys. But you have to start somewhere. And frankly, that entire garbage can filled with trash needed to be documented, collected, photographed, tagged, bagged, and placed into evidence. Because you don't know if it's somebody from the immediate area.

You don't know if it was somebody, you know, I would hardly think that they would put it in their out front trash can. But who knows? You know, people don't think when they do things like this. So everything in that trash can. You're right. I don't think they're really thinking, Karen Smith, forensic expert. As a matter of fact, Dr. Kendall Crowns, what would the mother have gone through delivering these children and cutting the umbilical cord and delivering the placenta? I mean, what would she have gone through? Well, I mean, the people give birth outside the hospital on, you know, not on a regular basis, but it does happen. So she would have to birth the babies herself and then, of course, remove the placenta herself,

which she would have had a lot of hemorrhaging or bleeding associated with that. So she would go through the birthing process by herself. It can be done, of course. It's been done throughout time. She would have to take the babies out on her own and then make sure that she also took the placenta out as well. Sometimes the placenta comes out on its own, but sometimes it can get stuck. She would have had a lot of bleeding associated with it. And then after that, if the cord tore on one of the babies as she was trying to get it out, the babies would be bleeding. There would be screaming of the

children, probably screaming of the parent. It would be a kind of a bloody screaming mess at the scene. I'm just not really sure how you go about doing it all alone. I remember when I gave birth, I was so out of it. Lucy and I almost died in the middle of all that. So I just had a wonderful, wonderful doctor that saved all three of us. You know, to Dr. Jeff Gardier, board certified clinical psychologist, professor of behavioral medicine at Truro College. Dr. Jeff, not only the physical requirements of giving birth, but the emotional toll it takes on someone to give birth. I mean, how would this woman have been in her right mind? And Dr. Jeff, as you recall, you and I covered a case where an infant was found in a dumpster, but the infant had been beaten dead. And as it turned out, a co-ed had given birth and her boyfriend beat the child. One of them beat the child and discarded of the infant, discarded the infant in a dumpster.

So the I'm trying to get into the frame of mind of a mother at during and immediately after childbirth? Yes, of course. And it's a situation here where it can be absolutely traumatic. But given what are the circumstances before the birth, does she feel safe? Is there someone there to assist her? Does she want the baby or the babies? What is her socioeconomic situation? What is her frame of mind? Is she mentally stable before this has begun? All of those things play into what the birthing process will be. And so when we see something like this, where the fetuses are discarded in this way, it really does speak to that there were some circumstances there where these children were not wanted, or there were some very dire circumstances going on where some very horrible judgments were made. What does it mean to you, Karen Smith, forensic expert, that this was residential trash, not industrial trash?

Well, it tells me that somebody probably lived in the area. giving birth to twins, regardless of the circumstances, going far to do this disgusting, horrendous act of disposing them in a garbage can. So it would have to be somebody local or close by, in my opinion. Guys, we were talking about a garbage lady going about her routine. You know, I don't even like taking the garbage out to the chute in our apartment in New York, much less carting it out to the street. So, but you do it. It's a chore. Got to be done. Here is a lady minding her own business, doing her job, and she sees two infant boys, newborns, tumble out of the trash.

First thing, secure the scene. All the trash in that truck, all the trash in that garbage can has to be saved for evidentiary purposes. Can we find a receipt? Can we find a fingerprint? Can we find anything to identify who killed these babies. Then there is a transport of the babies to the medical examiner's office. Take a listen to our friends at True Crime. The next day an autopsy was performed which showed that the boys had been alive at the time of their birth but had died later due to asphyxiation and so because of this their deaths were ruled homicides. Unfortunately, authorities were never able to determine the identity of the boys or determine who the boys' parents were. And so unfortunately, the case went cold for many, many years. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

For those of you just joining us, two infant newborn twins are found in the trash by the garbage lady. I want to go straight back to Karen Smith, forensic expert. Karen, cops then go door to door trying to speak to what neighbors have described as pregnant women. That goes nowhere. What was their purpose? Well, they have to just blanket the entire neighborhood because, like I said, this is going to be somebody local, Nancy. They're not going to travel a far distance.

So they had to question everybody, family members. Did you notice that one of your family members was pregnant and is no longer pregnant? You know, questioning pregnant women, that was probably because, you know, pregnant women might talk with each other about their experiences. Did you talk to somebody who was nervous or scared or or, you know, had questions about giving birth? All of those things come into play. But unfortunately, all of those leads went nowhere. Well, of course, Dr. Jeff, they were looking for a potential killer. If a woman had been pregnant and they go and interrogate her, they find out if she's still pregnant or can she produce the baby?

That's why they talk to the ladies. Absolutely. And again, we talked about proximity. How much more proximity than can you have than the person who actually gave birth to the babies? Straight out to special guests joining us, the gene hunter. And I don't mean blue jeans. I mean G-E-N-E hunter. Her name, Cheryl LaPointe, genetic genealogist, founder of the gene hunter at the genehunter.com. Cheryl LaPointe, we're just old trial lawyers here, so you're going to have to speak to us in terms we can understand. I will never forget the first time I tried to explain to a jury deoxyribonucleic acid. I finally just sat down and let the expert describe it. But at the time these children were found dead in the trash, two infant boys, newborns, twins, we didn't have anything called mitochondrial DNA, right? At the time that the

babies were found, DNA was taken at the autopsy and about 17 years ago the only system that was available to try to find who the parent was was the system law enforcement uses that is the CODIS system. So the markers in the DNA were actually run against the CODIS system, and there was no masses found, which basically means that the parent of these babies had never committed a crime, and their DNA was not in the only system that was available to try to find who this parent was. To Troy Slayton, criminal defense attorney, joining us out of LA, if you could briefly describe in regular people talk, not Latin phrases you picked up in law school, what is CODIS?

CODIS is a law enforcement database. It's a national database where law enforcement agencies from all over the country enter the DNA from people who have been typically arrested or convicted of felony offenses in their respective states. And the purpose is for exactly this type of situation, where some DNA is found from a rape kit or from an autopsy, and it is then run against the database of all the people who have been arrested or convicted of significant offenses all over the country. Very often you don't see DNA get taken on a misdemeanor, but definitely on felonies is SOP, standard operating procedure. Now to Dr. Kendall Crowns, Deputy Medical Examiner, Travis County, Texas, Austin. Dr. Crowns, when we say the DNA didn't

match up in CODIS, how do you get DNA? How do you extract DNA from a newborn baby twin? So the DNA is extracted in a, we, what is done at autopsies, they take a blood sample and they place it on what we call a DNA card, which is a special card. It's coated with a fixative. And then those cards are sent to the crime lab. A card or a piece of glass? What do you mean a card? A card. It's actually like a paper card with a special. Like an index card? Similar. Yeah. So you take what? Blood, saliva, what? Blood. We take a sample of the blood from the decedent and place it on the card. But with a needle, you extract blood like you would at the doctor's office?

Well, so it's similar, but what we do is we remove the chest plate and then directly get blood from the heart with a needle. Well, you know what? I asked the question. I deserve that. Why you would just get it with a needle like at the doctor's office, I don't know. But thank you for that detail. I'll have that in my head tonight. So you remove the baby's chest plate and take the blood directly from the heart. May I ask why that's necessary when you could just do a pinprick? Well, if you're doing an autopsy and you do the blind stabbing with the needle, you could cause damage to the internal organs that then you would have to explain once you got in there to do the autopsy. On an arm? Taking blood from the baby's arm

would do more damage than opening up the breastplate? You can't take blood from an arm in a dead body because there's no pressure left. So when they're taking your blood at the hospital, you have blood pressure that allows blood to flow into the tubes. When the body's dead and there's no heart beating, everything's stagnant. So what you have to do is you have to get into the body cavity to get the blood itself. You can't just stick it in an arm because nothing's pumping anymore, so you wouldn't be able to get any blood at all. And Troy Slayton, veteran criminal defense attorney,

I've just displayed for everyone why, A, you try not to get into an argument with an expert not in your field because they will win. And number two, never at trial ask the question you don't know the answer to. And number three, because it'll make you look like an idiot. And number three, prepare, prepare, prepare. Because at trial, if I already knew what Crowns was going to say, I would have said, and isn't it true, Dr. Kendall Crowns, you had to open the breastplate to get the blood for a very specific reason. You couldn't just take the blood from the

arm like at the doctor's office. Explain. Right, Troy? I mean, there you go. Be prepared and don't ask the question you don't know the answer to. That's true. But when I'm asking questions, usually as a criminal defense attorney, most of my questions are what are called leading questions, where I'm asking the question that pretty much has the answer in the question. In other words, you're making an argument in front of the jury, question by question. Like, isn't that right, Dr. Crown i know your i know your your style and it's for a reason so dr kendall crowns you take the blood directly from the heart you put it on something like an index card and i'm sure seal it so people like troy slayton cannot then argue with the chain

of custody that somebody put somebody else's blood on the card. And then you get to someone like Cheryl LaPointe, the genetic genealogist. Once the lab gets the blood sample, the dot, it really only takes a dot, right? Cheryl, what do they do? Yes, Nancy. they have a dot of blood and they run it, they get a profile. Now, the profile that was obtained when these babies were found was not able to be used in the system we as genetic genealogists use. It's a different process. So you actually have to get this DNA now in a file that can be uploaded to sites that we use to compare DNA matches. So that had to have been done with a sample of DNA that was degraded, that the lab actually stored for about 17 years. And in a nutshell, what is GEDmatch.com? What is that?

So that is a site that was developed by two gentlemen who were genealogists and we like to compare our results with people that we match but you may have tested at one company and I may have tested at another company so we can upload our results no matter where we test to GEDmatch, and we can compare our results. We can see how we match to each other, or we can compare ethnicity results. There's all kinds of tools that we use. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. And now in the search for who left these infants, purposely throwing them in the trash to die. Take a listen to WGN 9 Chicago's Rob Snade. Cook County Sheriff's investigators reopened the investigation and used DNA from the scene to attempt to identify the birth mother. It's called Investigative Genetic Genealogy, where a familial DNA profile is developed from DNA and uploaded into a database. It's an open source database called GEDmatch.com.

We had contracted Parabon Nanolabs to assist us with finding the birth mother of these babies. Investigators traveled to Holland and obtained a discarded item containing Briley's DNA, and the DNA was a match, according to authorities. A discarded item. I've had cases where a cop saw a target eat a pizza and they went in after the pizza was discarded and got DNA off the crust of the pizza. Take a listen again to WGN Chicago 9. Authorities say a national case inspired the handling of this case. There was a Golden State killer case broke through genetic genealogy. It was the first case that was solved through genetic genealogy.

So I had approached the deputy chief of investigation, Sean Gleason, after that happened and asked him if we could open the case. He said yes. And they did reopen the investigation. And that investigation led them to nearby Holland. Take a listen to our friends at CrimeOnline.com. Antoinette Briley was born and raised in the Chicago area. She's a 41-year-old single mother of a daughter. She currently lives in Holland, Michigan and works very long hours at a local factory. Briley doesn't have any criminal history, and she's described as a productive member of society. A 41-year-old single mom of a daughter who we've learned is

age 12, Antoinette Briley. Tere Caputo, how did the cops ID Antoinette Briley? Through DNA? Yeah, Nancy, through DNA. What they did was they went to Holland, Michigan, which is a state over from where she used to live and where all this happened. And you can understand why she slipped below people's radars, because this is a woman leading a relatively mild life. No, you know, raising a child, working a job. But they ended up finding a cigarette butt that she had smoked and they picked it up from her unwittingly and she became a match. The DNA matched her. So that's how she ended up getting picked up. So mommy smokes a cigarette, throws down the butt. Cops are watching. They get the

cigarette butt under the law. If you abandon property, throw it in the trash, throw down a cigarette butt, leave a crust of pizza. It's fair game. They don't need a warrant if you abandon the property or the cigarette butt. But to you, Cheryl LaPointe, genetic genealogist, thegenehunter.com. Cheryl, how did they find Briley to start with? When they look through the matches, the shared matches of DNA. Once the DNA from the twins was put into GEDmatch, they sorted groups of matches and they found shared ancestors. And they use typical genealogical tools like birth certificates and historical records, and they build family trees to find where this all leads to. They look at an area where the families are from. They look at married

couples and see if you have DNA on both of those lines. And they continue to build a family tree until they get to an area where you have a suspect where you can give law enforcement names and say these are possible suspects find and let's see if they match so to get a match on ged jed match it doesn't mean you have a criminal history that would show up in codas this woman mean you have a criminal history. That would show up in CODIS. This woman does not have a criminal history. She's holding down a job and raising a 12-year-old little girl. She's 41 years old now. But what the DNA from the baby shows with modern technology called familial DNA is a match to somebody in Briley's family. Therefore, they don't know it's Briley

yet. They go all the way back. In fact, they could go back as far as the 1700s. And you follow the family tree down, down, down, down, down, down, until you find a woman who would have been in childbearing age 17 years ago. Then you look in this area and then you narrow it down. They go to Antoinette Briley's home and work. They watch her, which they are allowed to do under the law. They see her discarded cigarette butt. They get it. They compare the DNA and then they know who the birth mother is. Take a listen to our friends at WG and Chicago 9. Authorities say that mother is 41-year-old Antoinette Briley. They say that she's of Holland, Michigan. Now, they say that they used DNA to link her back to her twin boys that they

say she threw away like trash. I'm happy that there's closure for the twins. You know, there was nobody fighting for them. So I am happy that we identified who did this to them. And it's kind of a surreal feeling. The announcement came 17 years after a waste management employee found twin brothers in a Stickney Township alley. And to Will Jones, ABC 7. A trash collector discovered their bodies while emptying a garbage bin in Stickney Township. That bin belonged to Don Pecknick. It was indescribable that someone would do that.

Investigators say Briley lived about a mile and a half away from the crime scene. Pecknick remembers detectives questioning her and others in the neighborhood. I was in tears. I couldn't, I was in shock. We did multiple interviews up and down the block, you know, checking, doing canvases, but we didn't get anything back then. That's why this case now jumping that way is so good. Detectives have not released a motive for the murders. They say Briley does have a daughter. Pecknick says she has always thought about the twins and what happened to them.

What was going through her mind and no I think it was I think of them a lot. Then Briley is arrested. Take a listen to our cut 14 ABC 7. Cook County Sheriff's Police say through genetic genealogy they were able to eventually connect DNA evidence recovered from the scene to Briley. As part of the investigation, sheriff's police detectives traveled to Holland, Michigan and obtained discarded items of Briley's DNA, which was then matched to the DNA from the victims. On Thursday, detectives learned Briley was in the Chicago area. She was arrested during a traffic stop in Oak Lawn. Briley was transported to the Sheriff's Police Headquarters here in Maywood,

where she admitted post-Miranda to her involvement in the birth, death, and disposal of the two deceased infants. But why? Why? Take a listen to our friend Joy Barge in our cut eight at CrimeOnline.com. Reports say that Antoinette Briley, then 24, is alone at her grandparents' home on the day of June 6, 2003. She notices bleeding and is having cramps, so she gets into the shower and she starts giving birth to the first baby. Briley then describes that she felt more pressure and realized she was giving birth to the first baby. Riley then describes that she felt more pressure and realized she was giving birth to a second baby. After delivery, she sees that both infants are male and are crying, but not loud enough for neighbors to hear.

She describes the sound as whimpering. And then Ray Caputo, lead news anchor, WDBO, how do they go from her bathtub, her grandparents' bathtub, to a trash can? Oh, this is really sad, Nancy. She puts them in a duffel bag, these newborn kids, one of them with the placenta still attached, puts them in duffel bags, and she gets into her car, and she says that she's going to go to the hospital. Now, I'm looking at a map, and the hospital where these children were left was only, you know, blocks and blocks away. It wasn't too far, but she decided at some point that she was going to dump

them in a garbage can in an alley. So she took them out of the bag and she did just that. She threw them in that garbage can with trash. Dr. Jeff Gardner, let's get real. If you were taking babies to the hospital, why would you stuff them in a duffel bag? Absolutely. Well, with them being suffocated in the duffel bag. And it shows that possibly not only was she emotionally unstable, but not at all invested in this in that she's not holding them. She's not nurturing them. She puts them in a duffel bag in order to take them away. You're saying emotionally unstable. That is not insanity. Under the law, she knew very well what she was doing. She put them in a duffel bag, put the placenta in a cardboard box, threw it all in the trash, even said, I thought about taking them to the hospital, but then changed my mind. This is a case of murder one.

I hate to see a single mom of a 12-year-old girl go to jail. She ran. That's true. She hid. But you cannot hide from modern day science. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.