Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - PROSECUTOR'S DEAL WITH THE DEVIL, CRIES IN COURT: KOHBERGER GUILTY

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

Bryan Kohberger, in court this week, admits he killed four University of Idaho students: Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. Kohberger agreed to a plea deal when the death penalty was taken off the sentencing table. Family members of the victims were divided about the plea, some saying justice for their loved one was denied. During a court hearing, we learned that Bryan Kohberger did not plan to murder four people. He had a target. We don't know who that target was, but reports say Kohberger allotted on paper what happened that night, and after his sentencing, that information could be made public. Sentencing for Kohberger is later this month.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Philip Dubé  -  Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy Dr. Shavaun Scott - Psychotherapist, Best-selling Author of Her Newest Release, a Memoir, "Nightbird,"  as well as “The Minds of Mass Killers: Understanding and Interrupting the Pathway to Violence” and "Game Addiction: The Experience and the Effects;"  FB: Shavaun.scott IN: shavaunscott   Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective 9worked over 300 Homicides in 25-year career and rained the first Native American Homicide Task Force); & Host of YouTube Channel, "The Interview Room" Dr. DeWayne Hendrix - Former Warden at the MDC in Brooklyn (also served as a Warden in Sheridan, Oregon), Former Senior Warden with the US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons, and Founder and President of A New Daylight Foundation; Author: "Who Are You?  See it Say it and Seize it;" @anewdaylight (IG)  @drdewaynehendrix (LinkedIn)  @anewdaylight (X-Twitter) Andy Kahan - Director of Victim Services and Advocacy at Crime Stoppers of Houston; Facebook: "Andy Kahan and Crime Stoppers of Houston;" X @AKahanCrimeSto1; Instagram: AndyVictimAdvocate Dr. Kendall Crowns -  Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), NEW Podcast --- launching on April 7th, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University) Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X: @JoScottForensic Germania Rodriguez - Germania Rodriguez, Chief US Reporter, DailyMail.com Dave Mack  - 'Crime Stories'  Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The prosecutor strikes a deal with the devil, then breaks down and cries in court. He should be crying. Coburger, Brian Coburger, Brian Coburger, kills three murderers, savages, four beautiful Idaho University students, virtually in their sleep, takes a plea deal to save his own skin. Why was that allowed? Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

I wanna thank you for being with us. What is the 911 location of your emergency? Something is happening. Something is happening in our home. We don't know what. What is the address of the emergency? 1122 T Road. I don't know if you're like me, but every time I hear that 911 call of the survivors

desperately seeking help, four of their friends, their roommates, massacred, butchered in their sleep. How in the world did Brian Coburger escape trial. In the last hours that deal with the devil goes down in open court, but I want you to see the prosecutor choking on his own words, breaking down crying in the 13th of 2022. Excuse me. Mr. Koberger entered the residence of 1122 King Road in Moscow, Idaho. He did that with the intent to kill. We will not represent that he intended to commit all of the murders that he did that night, but we know that that is what resulted and that he then killed intentionally, willfully, deliberately with premeditation and with malice forethought, Maddie Mogin, Kayleigh Gonzales, Ethan Chapin and Santa Cruz.

Thank you. Really? Save it. Your tears mean nothing. Thank you. Really? Save it. Your tears mean nothing. You stood there and you took the deal over the objections of some victims' families. And I agree with them. At first I thought it wouldn't happen.

I thought maybe the media was wrong. Reports could be wrong, couldn't they? But then it went down in the last hours in a court of law. It's done. It's over. Brian Koberger will never face the death penalty. He won't even face trial. The victim's families will never have answers. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, didn't intend to kill the victims.

What? Didn't he go in the home with a K-bar knife? I don't know. Joe Scott, do you go into other people's homes carrying a military style K-bar knife? I don't. Why did he? Do you sneak in and break in a door, Joe Scott? Do you sneak around at three or four o'clock in the morning trying not to wake them up so you can have the element of surprise on your victims? Any of that? Do you dress in an outfit that you can shed the moment you get out of the home like this

so you leave nothing behind? Do you wear a face mask and gloves when you encounter the residents of the home? No, this was his intent. Under the law, there are two types of intent. Those types of intent evidence are implied and explicit. Explicit intent is when I say something like, Joe Scott Morgan, I'm gonna kill you and then I shoot you dead. That's explicit. Implicit is intent manifested by your actions such as every action conducted by Brian Koberger. Didn't intend Joe Scott Morgan explain how wrong that is. No wonder the prosecutor was crying. Yeah the only time I've ever carried a military knife in anywhere was when I was in the army.

And I don't ever really remember un-sheathing it at all. All those years ago, I had it as part of my equipment. And no, I would not dress like this unless I had specific intent to do great bodily harm and bring an, literally, Dancy fancy I've talked about this before an Instrument of death with me. That's what the K bar is made for and then you purpose yourself And the only way I can really think of this Nancy is through my eyes and experience as a forensic scientist and promising Investigator that's an investigator is that I'm trying to create barriers layers between myself and the environment in which I'm seeing investigator, that's an investigator, is that I'm trying to create barriers, layers between myself and the environment in which I'm in.

I always go back to the godfather of forensics, and that is Edmond LeCarde. Every contact leaves a trace. It's LeCarde's exchange principle. I think he's probably been exposed to that, at least peripherally. He understands that construct. And been exposed to that, at least peripherally. He understands that construct. And so based upon that, he's trying to keep himself from shedding any kind of evidence

that might fall from him. Hair, skin, any fibers off of his clothing he would commonly wear. And then you take, I don't know, maybe, I don't know, let's just say a Dickie's jumpsuit. Where have I heard that before? And you bestoon yourself in this, and then you can take it off after it's blood-soaked, Nancy. Didn't intend. Then why did he go into the home? Hey, you know what? I just want to watch the prosecutor choking up again in court and crying as he choked down the words, accepting a guilty plea over the objections some of the victims' families who go on to call the prosecutor a gutless coward who saved a killer's

life. Let's watch this again. On November 13th, 2022. Excuse me. Mr. Koberger entered the residence of the 1122 King Road in Moscow, Idaho. He did that with the intent to kill. We will not represent that he intended to commit all of the murders that he did that night, but we know that that is what resulted. And that he then killed intentionally, willfully, deliberately with premeditation and with malice forethought. Manny Mogin, Caley Gonzales, Ethan Chapin,

and Santa Cruz. Thank you. Joining us now, investigative reporter, chief US reporter for DailyMail.com, Hermonia Rodriguez. Hermonia, what happened in court? This all really went down very quickly. As you mentioned, half of the victims' families

disapproved strongly of this deal, and they said so before yesterday when it all took place in court. We saw an ice cold Brian Coburger get up, swear that he was going to tell the truth, and really simply replying yes as the judge went through the plea deal. As you mentioned, he said the prosecution said they couldn't be sure how many people he intended to kill. But in his plea deal, Brian Coburger said he killed these four young people. He meant to do so and he is accepting responsibility for it. However, Nancy, one of the tragic things about this plea deal is that it did not

require Coburger to tell the world what really happened. And that was one of the issues that some of the families have with it. Exactly what happened is that Brian Coburger pled guilty, escaping the death penalty. Hermonia Rodriguez, joining us, DealingMail.com. What were the terms of the deal? Basically, the defense just wanted to spare Coburger's life.

We've seen them try everything. So in exchange for him pleading guilty to these four murders with no details, he now gets to spend the rest of his life in prison for life sentences at a maximum security prison. He doesn't get to appeal his sentence. However, he gets to live the rest of his life in this prison.

As the family's mentioned, he gets to build relationships, he gets to build relationships, he gets to read books, and he will not face the death penalty. CRIME STORIES WITH NANCY GRACE Joining me is Chris McDonough, director of the Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective, intimately familiar with this case, has been to the scene multiple times.

Over 300 homicides under his belt. You can find him now on the interview room on YouTube. Chris McDonough, really? What did that buy me? Nothing. Every case gets appealed. Every case, every conviction, every felony conviction gets appealed. Done. Check. So to say, oh, we did it to avoid an appeal. That's, let me just say legal term crap

because you know, every case that is a conviction gets appealed. If they cannot afford a new appellate attorney, the state will give them an appellate attorney for free. So it's no skin off the state's back for them to say, oh, now there's no chance of appeal. That bought me nothing. So what do you make of what the prosecutor did? And I'm sick of looking at him crying in court. Save the tears. The people that are crying are the victim's families. So you know what, suck it up, man. Go ahead, McDonough. You know what, Nancy? You are a thousand percent right once again. This case has been driven by emotional mitigation for the horror of these events.

And I have information that they met with the AG's office and the AG's office, you know, did not invite the families to the table. They sent that email out with an attachment letter. And the discussion was there was half of the victims' families that wanted the deal and half did not. But the AG leaned towards the cost of the trial. Up to $15 million was the projection. And so they went with the state and they left the victims out to dry.

And part of that deal would be he would have to write out you know exactly what he did but that information is not available yet and so Chris McDonough please stop are you saying yep that part of the deal it was a deal for the defendant not for the state or the victims families was that Brian Koberger write out what he did. In other words, I committed murder. I committed murder. What? Write it out 500 times and it's all over. Are you serious? That I'm going to believe what Brian Coburger says? That was the deal? That's what I got out of this? Yeah, that's my understanding as well, Nancy. It's horrible. I mean, DAs have an, you know more than anybody,

how many times would guys like me come to you and present a death penalty case? And you guys have an ethical responsibility to file a death penalty enhancement with the idea though that you're not gonna extract a plea. In this case, did this DA go into this whole thing knowing he was gonna extract a plea all along? If so, I just find that's disturbing as well,

if that's the case. I mean, the reality is that you expect, straight out to Andy Kahn joining me, Director of Victim Services and Advocacy, Crime Stoppers, Houston, Texas, they don't play. I mean, really, Andy? What I got out of this, I gave up a jury trial, right? The state, not me, the state gave up a jury trial,

gave up ever giving the family answers about what really happened. They'll never know. You know, Andy Kahn, in my fiance's case, he was murdered, as you know, shortly before our wedding. I know what happened. There was a trial. I know what happened. He had a summer job on a construction crew.

He was out in a remote rural area building, I think an office building with a crew, he left at lunchtime to go get soft drinks for everybody else, he comes back in and an angry employee that had just been fired sees the company truck and opens fire on Keith and shoots him five times in the neck, the face and the back and he died. That's what happened. Okay, it's been twisted around in the neck, the face, and the back, and he died. That's what happened. Okay, it's been twisted around in the media. That's what happened. How do I know that?

Because there was a trial, and they gave all that away? So we could get a, I did it, I did it, I did it, I did it, five pages, write 100 times and you're free. From Brian Coburger? Like he's going to tell the truth, Con? I'll tell you, Nancy, I serve on the board of parents of murdered children and surviving family members of homicide. I've been with them for over 30 years. This is about the ultimate sucker punch that I've seen in my over 30 years. What's changed in three years? Nothing. The defense ran out of options. The decision was made three years ago to seek death. Nothing changed up until the time the

defense waved their white flag and said, we give up, we give up. We'll cut a deal with that. There's no mitigating factors. Families for the last three years that a trial was imminent. And for you to say the plea deal is in the best interest of everybody, get real. To quote someone I know very well that I'm talking to right now, that's a bunch of BS. And I have a really big problem with the way this was handled. The plea that you sending a form letter. That's really cold. That is about unemotional announcing your decision. Victims' families deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, and they deserve better from this prosecution. The death penalty in this country is so very rarely sought to begin

with and for those that are truly worthy of the ultimate punishment, Brian Coburger is at the top of the list right there. Why even have a death penalty if you're not going to use it? I mean, you know, that's what I was just about to ask you, Andy Kahn, because if... And I'm not debating death penalty, no death penalty. We have the death penalty. So if you've committed to having the death penalty, is there a better case than murdering four innocent unarmed University of Idaho students asleep or sleepy in their beds of stalking them, of identifying them, and you the perv who have been googling and searching, raping women who are asleep,

passed out, comatose, you fulfill your fantasy and you murder four people, one of them running down the stairs trying to get away from you? You chase her down and murder her? So if we're going to have the death penalty, what is that? Not the poster case for the DP? Why have the death penalty if you're not going to have it for Coburger? Basically the state of Idaho has basically abdicated the death penalty for any future cases

if you're not gonna do it for Brian Coburger. When you take four lives, especially in the manner that he did, this is the only possible outcome. The families now get zero answers. They get nothing out of this. And basically, you're allowing him to call the shots. The evidence was so clear and convincing, he slaughtered four young college students. He

deprived one, two, three, four people of their lives, and you're not going to deprive them of him. Where's the equity in that? Or at least offer it to a jury, this heaping pain on the victims' families. Now they have this to carry with them the rest of their lives that the state didn't even try. What are they afraid to try? A case for Pete's sake?

That's your job, man, to get in there and do the best you can, win or lose. To Joseph Scott Morgan again, the host of a hit series podcast, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, explain the injuries to the four victims. What we know, Nancy, is that these are a collection of sharp force injuries. I think people have simply assumed that they're all stab wounds. We know that based upon one of the victims, well, actually several of them,

that some of these injuries are more than likely incised wounds, which are slices. So you've got a combination of both of these. Either way, you have a milled blade that's penetrating the skin. Stab wounds, the way we delineate them from, incised wounds is that stab wounds are deeper than long and incised wounds are longer than deep.

So you know, you're a Shakespeare aficionado, you know, the, what is is it death by a thousand cuts. That idea applies here as well. It's painful. It would not have gone quickly. This was a very bloody affair. And you know, and that I think therein lies a real tragedy, Nancy, because he will not be held to account for this carnage in the sense that we would want him to be held in account. I'm not talking about the death penalty here either.

I'm talking about having to hear about this in court and actually what he did so that it burns into his ears so that you know you think you're reliving it right now he's you know in this kind of fantastic state in his brain this is not fantastic this is reality he will be able to sit there and hear what they have to say but of course that ain't going to happen it's never going to happen now because the d has offered this plea, the plea has been accepted, and we're left wanting. Correction. And I so rarely get to do this, but dying a thousand deaths is from Shakespeare. Death by a thousand cuts is from Imperial China. But that said, joining me now in addition to Andy Kahn

and renowned Joe Scott Morgan, Dr. Kendall Crowns is joining us. Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, never lack of business in their morgue, and he is a star of a new podcast set to launch, Mayhem in the morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine and is of a new podcast set to launch, Mayhem in the Morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine and is joining us now. Dr. Kendall Crowns, following up on what Joe Scott Morgan just told us,

what actually caused the deaths of the four students? What did their lungs fill up with blood and they asphyxiated? Did their heart get slashed? I mean how does a knife attack like that end up actually killing you as opposed to being wounds that could be repaired in the ER? So in stab wounds and incised wounds you basically die from blood loss. They're gonna be bleeding from all these wounds, bleeding out onto the bed or the surface around them and also they'll be bleeding

internally. So their chest cavity will fill up with blood and it'll make it hard for their lungs to expand which will cause them to basically suffocate in their own blood. If the heart is hit, the heart can actually bleed into the sac surrounding the heart which is called the heart can actually bleed into the sac surrounding the heart, which is called the pericardial sac. And that fills up with blood and makes it hard for the heart to beat. And you die from heart failure that way. And then also if the, there is compromise where the lungs are stabbed and then it communicates with the airway, you can be coughing up blood and then re-swallowing the blood and inhaling the blood and dying

that way. So, it's a combination of the blood loss with the possible asphyxiation from blood filling the chest cavity or heart failure from blood filling the pericardial sac or compromising the heartbeat. It's any number of things, but it's essentially blood loss. Tell me exactly what's going on. One of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Oh and they saw some men in their house last night.

In Moscow, Idaho with the intent to commit the felony crime of murder. Yes. Did you on November 13th, 2022 in Laetaw County, state of Idaho, kill and murder Madison Mogan, a human being? Yes. And did you do that willfully, unlawfully, deliberately, and with premeditation and malice of forethought? Yes. Okay, so the state does a deal with the devil, the devil being Brian Coburger in this scenario, and for what? To get Brian Coburger's version of what happened that night?

There have been a lot of attacks online and call bombing the judge in this case alert. The judge cannot force the state to go forward with the death penalty. The judge cannot force the state to go forward on any prosecution. The judge can forward a lack of prosecution to the state's AG to review what's happening within the district attorney's office. But the judge can't make the state do anything. The state can't make the judge do anything. It's a balance of power. So everybody call bombing and emailing the judge. So just follow this through. Let me bring in Philip DuBey, guys, our renowned attorney in the LA jurisdiction. DuBey, under our

law, the judge is immune from being forced by the state or the defense to really do anything. For instance, if the judge had rejected the plea and said, hey, I want the death penalty to hey with this, the state could have actually just gotten another judge to take the plea. The state cannot force, the judge cannot force the state to seek the death penalty. It doesn't work that way. Could you explain it, Philip DuVay? Yes, we have what's called the separation of powers both at the state and the federal level and what

that means is we have three coordinate branches of government. We have the executive branch, which is basically the governor, the attorney general, and prosecutors, and of course we have the legislative branch, which at the federal level is Congress. At the state level, we have the legislature. And certainly at the local level, you have your city council. Additionally, we have the judiciary, which is our courts. And to ensure that we have this fair balance of power,

neither branch can encroach upon the powers of either. Otherwise you get anarchy and you get an unjust system. And here what you have is prosecutors within the executive branch alerting the judiciary that a settlement has been reached. Yes, the court can reject that settlement agreement, but the prosecution doesn't have to go forward with penalty. The prosecution can just go forward with penalty. The prosecution can just go forward with the guilt phase. And if the jury would have come back guilty on all four homicides,

then Brian Coburger would have got what we affectionately call LWOP, life without parole. So it was a lose-lose for the court. And sadly, it is a lose-lose for the victims' families. On the brighter side of things though, the case is over. He will never get out. There will be no appeals. They will never ever be able to decide whether or not the denial of this motion was accurate, whether or not the Atkins denial was accurate regarding his... You don't know that? You don't know any of that? Well, remember when Charles Manson, remember him? Psycho freaky killer? Yes. Remember that? The Manson murders? There's been a lot of movies about it. Yes. Charles Manson got the death penalty,

didn't he? Didn't he get the death penalty? That's a yes. Yes. Okay, he got sentenced to the death penalty and what happened? The law changed. Correct. The law changed, right? Yes. And suddenly the death penalty was gone and he came up over and over and over to be released on parole. Can you just agree to that much, Dubay? I know you'll want to fight with me, but is it that much truth? Yes. It is true. Okay, straight to Andy Kahn joining us. Director of Victim Services and Advocacy for Crime Stoppers, Houston, Andy Kahn. Remember that moment when all the laws were reversed and Charles Manson got life.

The law was changed. Now I understand what Dubay is saying and I agree with him, believe it or not, to a certain extent. But we don't know what wild hair is going to get up the rear ends of the Idaho assembly. Do we? Or the federal government. We don't know what's going to happen. But I do know if Coburger is put to death, that cannot be reversed.

You know? Who's to say, or who's not to say, that in 10 years somebody would rule, I know it sounds crazy, that life behind bars is cruel and unusual? It's already been argued thousands of times that that's cruel and unusual punishment, life behind bars without parole. It's already been argued thousands of times that that's cruel and unusual punishment, life behind bars without parole. It's already been argued. Who's to say some crazy judge doesn't go along with it? And he walks.

No one is to say that. We've seen this time and time again, and I tell victims' families, look, here's reality. Life without parole today doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna be life without parole 10, 20 years from now. And we've seen this repeated over and over again. The other thing that we are now seeing right now is so-called elderly mercy release, and particularly in the state of New York, where they're looking at everyone from the ages of 55 and over for potential parole, including a serial killer by the name of David Berkowitz. So again, it sounds good on the premise, life without parole, you're never gonna breathe free air again. That's it. You don't have to worry about this appeal, that appeal. But

I have seen it, you have seen it, things change, jurisdictions change. And this is why you're gonna have to keep a close abs on this, you know, right now today. The bottom line from my perspective in this case is you let a cold blooded murderer win. You allowed him to call the shots, you allowed him to dictate his own terms, including, I don't have to say anything except for one word, yes. That's gonna come back and haunt the state of Idaho, and it's gonna come back and haunt

victims' families for years down the road. Dubay, I know that you're a great trial lawyer. I know you went a lot of cases for criminals to walk free. I can't stop that. I know you've got a great singing voice since you burst out into song at Christmas with Oh Holy Night. I know that. But I didn't know you were a clairvoyant. Please go get your crystal ball and your turban because I want to see you predict that the law won't change regarding life without parole or mercy for the elderly

and Coburger never walks free. Okay, waiting. Oh, are you going to read the tea leaves? Would that work better for you? It'll never change. Tarot cards, never mind. Tarot cards, go ahead. It'll never change in the state of Idaho.

It might if he were a youthful offender at the time of the crime, but he was what, a wreck, 28, 29 years old. So it's not as if he was deprived of review of all the youthful facts. So you are a clairvoyant. Pretty much. And it's based on statistics. It's based on what's going on across the country.

You and Scott Peterson. You and Scott Peterson, oh yeah, and O.J. Simpson, and his dream sequence that he really killed Nicole Brown. I didn't need his dream to tell me that. So you are of sorts a clairvoyant. Con, I'm giving you the last word on that. We're seeing it right now, at least in several states where they're taking a look at anyone

from the ages of 55 or older, no matter what the actual sentence is for potential senior release based upon the age factor. So it's happening. You can't say unequivocally that life without parole for Coburger means he will never get out because we're watching it right now. You didn't agree with me? You only negotiated with the order of order. I was the only person that totally negotiated with you.

He didn't give us the public security to negotiate with us. He didn't even pretend. He could have just pretended and then lied, but he didn't even pretend. He basically said, your guy's input is in. ["The Daily Show Theme"] Crime stories with Nancy Grace. ["The Daily Show Theme"] I'm just not reporting it. I want you to hear from Kayla Goncalves' father who has been very open about the raw pain he has been enduring since his daughter was murdered.

Take a listen to Mr. Goncalves. He's going to own this. He's going to inherit what Thompson did. He's the only one that can fix it. He's the only one who can make it right. He needs to protect those other surviving victims and make this right. He needs to protect those other surviving victims and make this right. He needs to protect those other surviving victims and make this right. He needs to protect those other surviving victims and make this right. He needs to protect those other surviving victims and make this right. He needs to protect those other surviving victims and make this right. He needs the only one that can fix it. He's the only one who can make it right

He needs to protect those other surviving victims and make this person say that they had nothing to do with it He did it solely did it all on his own and nobody else was responsible and then we won't keep having this The supporters always saying that he you know, he got set up We know what he's planning on doing. Somebody died, a vet died, and he's gonna try to say that, put the blame on that person. So he's not gonna take accountability. And Thompson didn't force him to take accountability.

He didn't even negotiate. According to the Goncalves' and others, none of them were consulted. No one had any input into the prosecutor who broke down crying in court when he did it. Deal with the devil. Listen. He didn't agree.

He only negotiated with the order of arrest. I was the only person that negotiated with him. He didn't give us the public hearsay to negotiate with us. He didn't even pretend. He could have just pretended and then lied, but he didn't even pretend. He basically said, your guy's input is in. Straight out to Hermonia Rodriguez, the chief US reporter for DailyMail.com.

What happens now, Hermonia? Well, we're gonna have still a sentencing hearing where hopefully the victims' families will get a chance to tell Brian Coburger what these horrific crimes have done in their lives. Coburger should also have a chance to say anything if he so chooses. But from what we have seen, he doesn't have much to say in court. He only said yes with no expression. And then finally, he will be moved to a maximum security prison for worst of the worst.

It's actually where a lot of, there's also a death row. It's where Chad Daybell, the cult leader or also serial killer is held. And he will be there for his life according to the plea deal. Though I know as you said, there's a possibility that who knows in the future what could happen and he could be released. The only way he wouldn't be released is if he was put to death, okay? Because we know, Hermonia, the law can change because it has changed post-sentencing in murder cases. And the one I gave you was Charles Manson is just one example.

But two special guests joining us in addition to Hermonia Rodriguez, Dr. Siobhan Scott, psychotherapist. She is a bestselling author. Her newest release is Night Bird. She also wrote The Minds of Mass Killers, Understanding and Interrupting the Pathways to Violence. Good luck with that. And Game Addiction, The Experience and the Effects.

Dr. Siobhan Scott, thank you for being with us. I asked Hermonia Rodriguez from DailyMail.com what happens now and she was correct. But there's a lot more to that story. This is what happens. Brian Koberger will do a book deal. The Son of Sam laws were reversed by the US Supreme Court. All right. People think, oh, they can't profit. Well, in many jurisdictions, they can,

unless the state has enacted its own state claim against it. He'll write a book. There will be a made-for-TV movie. There will probably be another movie about his side of the story, his memoirs. It will talk about his childhood, how isolated he felt, and so forth and so on. He's going to have pen pals behind bars. Women are going to try and have conjugal visits with him.

I mean, look at Luigi Mangione, right? There is a group out there called the Pro Burgers that support Brian Koberger. They will send him money. He may even get married behind bars like Yorne Vandersloot. He's had I think two children from behind bars. He has drugs, he has alcohol, he has women, he has parties. that is what is going to happen now. And I predict this Dr. Siobhan Scott that one day there will be a big symposium, a conference of crim-pro criminal procedure students much like you teaching Joe Scott Morgan and the guest of honor will be zoomed in from the penitentiary and that renowned

guest will be Brian Koberger where he will develop even more groupies. That's what's gonna happen. Yeah a perverse celebrity and when we look at it from the point of view that you just laid out for us, he has a far richer life than he ever had free, which is very twisted, but I think you're right. He's now in the ranks of Bundy, one of his idols, and it's sickening. It's absolutely sickening and disturbing. And I can only imagine how the families feel because they were given no sense of control over any of this, which I think is really important

for their healing to have a sense of control here. Why do you say that? I'm very curious because I distinctly remember, I don't know that the prosecutor does, but I remember, and Keith's family remembers, before my fiance's murder trial ever happened, the prosecutor came and spoke to us about what he thought was the best course of action and how we felt about it and what was our input.

I was so out of it, I just, you know, hardly even remember all the words that were said, but I remember the gist were said, but I remember the gist of the conversation. I remember what went down. I remember what Keith's parents said. And we did have, they did have that control to an extent. I mean, the family doesn't get to call the witnesses or put up the evidence, but they can steer the ship, right ship if they want to.

How does control help anything? I think the act of having your loved ones murdered is, I mean, we are all so protective of our kids, right? We want to have some benign, benevolent control over the way their lives go. We want to protect them and to have your kids murdered in this kind of way, that psychological need is just ripped away from you. And I think it's it's just important to feeling some kind of emotional stability again to feel like, okay this horrible thing happened.

I'm completely devastated. This has changed my identity forever, changed the trajectory of my life. But at least I get this little bit of power over this search for justice, this attempt to get some kind of justice here. And I think it's a psychological need that most people have. Andy Kahn, director of victim services in Houston through Crimestoppers. Andy, what's happened here, if it can even be imagined, is after losing their child,

to whom they poured in all their love, all their money, all their time, their hopes, their dreams. Yeah, I mean, I've got a life, but come on Andy, you know about my twins. They're my life now. They are my life. No pressure twins, but to have that ripped away, number one. Then to have it ripped away the way that they were murdered. That they were murdered at all, but then the way that they were murdered. That they were murdered at all, but then the way that they were murdered. Then the way the victims had been dragged through the mud as being partiers and horrors and sluts and blah, blah,

blah, they were out too late, they were drinking, oh no, that whole thing happened. And now this, behind their backs, you heard Goncalves, he wasn't consulted? What an emotional roller coaster for all these families. And you let a wannabe, budding Ted Bundy, I'm gonna be a serial killer beat you. And that's the reality right there. And you haven't heard the last of Brian Coburn because guess what? Exactly what you were saying earlier, he is going to talk, but he's going to do it on his own terms. He is going to write his memoirs. From my knowledge

right now, I don't see anything in the perspective plea deal preventing him from meeting with journalists, from sending out submissions, from talking about himself. And as someone who's been basically monitoring what we now call murderabilia, and that's items that are stolen from high profile defendants, killers, serial killers on the open market, he's about to become the new Darlene. A deal goes down in a court of law, a deal with the devil. The prosecutor in the Brian Koberger case actually crying in court choking on his words and he should have according to the victims families. Joining me now special guest Dr. Dwayne Hendrix. Dr. Hendrix, former warden at the MDC in Brooklyn, but also served as warden in

Sheridan, Oregon. Former senior warden with the U.S. Department of Justice, with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, founder president of a New Daylight Foundation, author of Who Are You? See It, Say It, seize it. Dr. Dwayne Hendricks, who shot to fame during the Sean Combs investigation, Dr. Hendricks, what can you tell me about where Coburger will be housed most likely? Yeah, he'll be housed at the Idaho

Maximum Security Institution near Kuna, Idaho, which is nearly six hours from where he brutally murdered those four beautiful souls It has the maximum security prison has capacity of 549 inmates and he'll be one of over 130 individuals serving a life sentence without parole His day-to-day activities will be very routine and focused on stringent security as maximum security facilities has the greatest amount of focus on security and restricted movement.

And while the Idaho Department of Corrections website doesn't clearly explicitly talk about what programming is available to those who are incarcerated there, I would beg to guess that he'll probably be involved in some cognitive behavior therapy as well as mental health treatment. And additionally, he will be able to visit on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sundays. And I was listening to the conversations earlier

with the other guests, there is no conjugal visits at this particular maximum security institution. That's what they all say. And yet women get pregnant, don't they? Yes, they do. And typically that's probably due to a staff member, a volunteer, or someone that's coming, or a contractor coming into those institutions that that does happen. Dr. Hendricks, Dr. Hendricks, Dr. Hendricks, you know how I feel about you, but I'm calling objection BS because you know what? I just covered a case where the jailhouse seamstress, please remind me the name of that, oh wait, it's all coming to me, Casey White, wasn't that defendant? Yeah. The jailhouse seamstress goes in a closet and has

affairs, sex, with a convicted felon. You think that was sanctioned? No, it wasn't and it all ended in an escape with her helping and a shootout. Thinky, thinky, it happened. It happens all the time where inmates get women pregnant. You do know about the birds and the bees, right? Dr. Hendricks, you do know where babies come from. I think you do, don't you? Yes ma'am, I do. I have four beautiful children.

Well, they just, you didn't pick them up at Walmart, Hendricks, you didn't pick them up at Walmart, okay? So women get pregnant by inmates, however, you want to claim it happens, it happens. I don't care if it's an employee, I don't care if it's a warden, I don't care if it's a seamstress. It happens. Isn't it true they get drugs and alcohol and other contraband behind bars? That's a yes-no, Hendrix.

Yes, it is. Everything that happens in the community happens behind those walls in the prison setting. Yes, it's all coming back to me. It happens every day. And unfortunately, there could be more. Yes. Drugs, alcohol, sex, they get tablets. We saw, sadly, I hate to bring it up, conjure it up for your mind, but I saw Alex Murdon, double killer, in a shirtless selfie. Why did I have to see it up, conjure it up for your mind, but I saw Alex Murdoch double killer in a shirtless selfie.

Why did I have to see that from behind bars? Cause he had a tablet. They get movie night. You said they have visits and therapy. Visits and therapy. Dave Mack joined me, crime stories investigative reporter. What is he saying? What they've got Nancy is when you get into this maximum

security where Coburger is going to be, he's going to have a life Nancy. What is he saying? What they've got, Nancy, is when you get into this maximum security where Coburger is going to be, he's going to have a life, Nancy. That's the saddest part of all of this. He has access to everything that you would pretty much have on the outside. He's got his own room. He'll have his own private area. He'll have an hour a day to go out and do whatever recreation he chooses to do. He can go to the library, a multi-purpose room, and go outside.

He'll have access to his own TV. He'll have his tablet like you were talking about. We've seen that so many times. He can watch older movies. His vegan diet, Nancy, you know, that's something that hasn't been talked about lately. Well, it will be totally at comedy. Oh, well, hold on. You're making me choke again.

Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Dr. Dwayne Hendrix, did you not hear what Dave Mack just said, vegan diet? Yes. You do know that they're gonna give him special meals, right Hendrix? Yes, if he is not on a flesh diet,

they call it common fare in the prison setting. And basically he'll get vegetables, fruits and protein. He'll be on a no-flesh diet. That's what we would call it. We didn't call it vegan. We call it no-flesh. Okay, stop everything. Just stop everything. Dr. Kendall-Crowns, you of course are a renowned medical examiner, the esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine. You're the star of a podcast about to launch Mayhem and the Morgue. You've handled mass killings.

You've seen what happens to the victims. Are you hearing this, Dr. Kendall Crowns? That Brian Koberger is going to get to watch movies, have visitation therapy, and special meals prepared for him as he writes his memoirs. Thoughts? Well, it is the unfortunate way that our legal system and our justice system works in which the murderer and the perpetrator of the violence and the terror on individuals is allowed to then have a very comfortable life in a basically a hotel and given anything and everything they want. It is what it is.

Movie night, special vegan meals, visitations, memoirs. That's what Brian Cobroger will be doing behind bars. While the victims' families not only remember their murdered children, but deal with the pain of being ambushed. According to them, several of them, they had no idea this plea deal was in the works and they opposed it. So Dr. Dwayne Hendricks is joining us, former warden. You didn't tell me about movie night, did you? Or special meals? What happened to that? What's he going to do next week? Have yoga therapy?

No. What, maybe a facial and a massage? Oh, wait, a mud bath? What? What's next for him? No, he's not. Is he gonna have a secretary taking down his memoirs as he dictates? No, but he might have an inmate that might want to take the notes for him if a cellmate might want to do that. But in terms of just his meals, I mean, if he doesn't want to eat meat, he doesn't have to um and the crazy thing out of all of this uh most individuals serving life sentences for every year that they're you know

every year they're incarcerated you can typically take two years off their life and i'm hoping i'm not speaking out of turn uh doc who's the uh medical examiner but if this guy is going to be living a somewhat healthy lifestyle, writing books, enjoying himself behind bars, this is another sort of slap in the face to the families who most of them who objected to this plea agreement and not him not having the death penalty. We wait as justice unfolds and now we remember an American hero, Officer Patricio Zemarapa, Dallas PD, just 32, shot in the line of duty, survived by grieving wife, Christy, daughter Lincoln, stepson Dylan, American hero, Officer Patricio Zemarapa.

Nancy Grace signing off. This is an iHeart podcast.