Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - PSYCHIC TIKTOK INFLUENCER APPEALS $10 MILLION VERDICT IN UNIVERSITY OF IDAHO SLAYINGS DEFAMATION CASE

Episode Date: June 13, 2026

A Texas-based TikTok creator has been ordered to pay University of Idaho professor Rebecca Scofield $10 million in a defamation lawsuit, The creator falsely accused the professor of orchestrating the 2022 murders of four University of Idaho students.  Ashley Guillard, an internet personality, posted videos accusing Professor Scofield of planning the murders to cover up an alleged affair with one of the victims.   Scofield sued for defamation after Guillard repeatedly refused to take the damaging videos down.  It subjected the professor to severe harassment and threats.  A federal judge found Guillard liable for defamation. Guillard filed an appeal to challenge the $10 million judgment   Joining Nancy Grace today: Greg Morse - Criminal Defense Attorney at Morse Legal, Author of “The Untested” [found on Amazon] Dr. Shavaun Scott- Psychotherapist, Author of “The Minds of Mass Killers: Understanding and Interrupting the Pathway to Violence” and "Game Addiction: The Experience and the Effects;"  FB: Shavaun.scott, Instagram: shavaunscott Dr. DeWayne Hendrix - Former Associate Warden at the MDC in Brooklyn, and Former Senior Warden with the US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons; Founder and President of A New Daylight Foundation, Author: "Who Are You?  See it Say it and Seize it;" @anewdaylight (IG)  @drdewaynehendrix (LinkedIn)  @anewdaylight (X-Twitter)   Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensicith Joseph Scott Morgan;" X:@JoScottForensic Sheryl McCollum -  Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, Host of Podcast: Zone 7; X: @ColdCaseTips Susan Hendricks - Outside Ada County Courthouse Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi;" IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The brutal murders in Idaho have reverberations that go on and on and on. In the last days, we learned a university, in the last days we learned a TikToker who falsely accused, a university professor of being somehow involved in the murders. is fighting a $10 million judgment. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

I want to thank you for being with us. That's right. A TikToker was ordered to pay $10 million to a college professor for falsely claiming the professor played a role in the brutal murders of four beautiful University Idaho students. What happened? Now, according to court documents we've obtained a social media personality, a TikToker, Ashley Gillard, who goes on social as Ashley solves mysteries on TikTok. Okay.

Compared the judgment, the $10 million judgment ordered against her to the Salem witch trials. Okay. This woman, Ashley Gallard, claims she conducted a tarot card. reading after the murders to, quote, get information on who killed the students and why? Repeat, a tarot card reading. She then says her cards reveal that one of the slain students had a relationship with a professor, Rebecca Schofield, and that Schofield ordered the murders of the students. well nothing could be further from the truth

Brian Coburger murdered them and pled guilty to it admitted it in court this had nothing to do with the University of Idaho professor nothing and if you're getting your facts from the tarot cards good luck just FYI that is not admissible in court these are the facts of what happened

to those beautiful young students with their lives before them. I don't know if you're on location of your emergency. of the survivors desperately seeking help, four of their friends, their roommates, their roommates massacred, but every time I hear that 911 call of the survivors desperately seeking help, four of their friends, their roommates, massacred, butchered, butchered in their sleep, How in the world did Brian Koberger escape trial? In the last hours, that deal with the devil goes down in open court, but I want you to see the prosecutor choking on his own words,

breaking down, crying in court. Watch. On November 13th of 2022, excuse me. Ms. Coburger entered the residence of 1122, King Rowell. in Moscow, Idaho. He did that with the intent to kill. We will not represent that he intended to commit all of the murders that he did that night, but we know that that is what resulted, and that he then killed intentionally, willfully, to reliberately, with premeditation, and with malice forethought. Maddie Mogan, Kaylee Gonzalez,

Ethan Chapin, and Santa Cruz. Thank you. Really? Save it. Your tears mean nothing. You stood there and you took the deal over the objections of some victim's families. And I agree with them. At first I thought it wouldn't happen. I thought maybe the media was wrong. Reports could be wrong, couldn't they? But then it went down in the last hours in a court of law. It's done. It's over. Brian Koberger will never face the death penalty. He won't even face trial. The victim's families will never have answers. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, didn't intend to kill the victims. What? Didn't he go in the home with a K-bar knife? I don't know. Joe Scott, do you? Do you, go into other people's homes carrying a military style K-bar knife? I don't. Why did he? Do you sneak in and break in a door, Joe Scott? Do you sneak around at three or four o'clock in the morning,

trying not to wake them up so you can have the element of surprise on your victims? Any of that? Do you dress in an outfit that you can shed the moment you get out of the home like this so you leave nothing behind? Do you wear a face mask and gloves when you encounter the residents of the home? No, this was his intent. Under the law, there are two types of intent. Those types of intent evidence are implied and explicit. Explicit intent is when I say something like Joe Scott Morgan, I'm going to kill you. And then I shoot you dead.

That's explicit. Implicit is intent manifested by your actions such as every action conducted by Brian Koberger. Didn't intend Joe Scott Morgan explain how wrong that is. No wonder the prosecutor was crying. Yeah. The only time I've ever carried a military knife and anywhere was when I was in the Army. And I don't ever really remember unsheathing at all all those years ago. I had it as part of my equipment.

And no, I would not dress like this unless I had specific intent to do great bodily harm and bring an – literally, Dancy – I've talked about this before, an instrument of death with me. That's what the K-bar is made for. And then you purpose yourself. And the only way I can really think of this, Nancy, is through my eyes and experience as a forensic scientist and crime scene investigator, death scene investigator, is that I'm trying to create barriers, layers between myself and the environment in which I'm in. I always go back to the godfather of forensics, and that is Edmond Lecard.

Every contact leaves a trace. It's LeCard's exchange principle. I think he's probably been exposed to that, at least peripherally. He understands that construct. And so based upon that, he's trying to keep himself from shedding any kind of evidence that might fall from him, hair, skin, any fibers off of his clothing he would commonly wear. And then you take, I don't know, maybe, I don't know, let's just say a Dickie's jumpsuit. Hmm, where have I heard that before? And you bestoon yourself in this, and then you can take it off.

after its blood should soak, Nancy. Didn't intend. Then why did he go into the home? Hey, you know what? I just want to watch the prosecutor choking up again in court and crying as he choked down the words, accepting a guilty plea over the objections of some of the victim's families who go on to call the prosecutor a gutless coward who saved a killer's life. Let's watch this again. On November 13th, 22,

excuse me. Ms. Coburger entered the residence of 1122 King Road in Moscow, Idaho. He did that with the intent to kill. We will not represent that he intended to commit all of the murders that he did that night,

but we know that that is what resulted, and that he then killed intentionally, willfully, deliberately, with premeditation, And with Maoist forethought, Manny Mogan, Kaylee Gonzalez,

Ethan Chapin, and Santa Cruz. Thank you. Joining us now, investigative reporter, Chief U.S. reporter for Dailymail.com, Hermania Rodriguez.

Hermania, what happened in court? This all really went down very quickly. As you mentioned, half of the victim's families disapproved strongly of this deal. And they said, So before yesterday, when it all took place in court, we saw an ice cold Brian Coburger get up, swear that he was going to tell the truth, and really simply replying yes as the judge went through the plea deal.

As you mentioned, the prosecution said they couldn't be sure how many people he intended to kill. But in his plea deal, Brian Coburger said he killed these four young people. he meant to do so and he is accepting responsibility for it. However, Nancy, one of the tragic things about this plea deal is that it did not require Coburger to tell the world what really happened. And that was one of the issues that some of the families have with it. Exactly what happened is that Brian Coburger pled guilty escaping the death penalty. Hermione Rodriguez joining us Dealingale.com. What were the terms of the deal? Basically, the defense just wanted to spare Coburgers' life.

We've seen them try everything. So in exchange for him pleading guilty to these four murders with no details, he now gets to spend the rest of his life in prison for life sentences at a maximum security prison. He doesn't get to appeal his sentence. However, he gets to live the rest of his life in this prison. As the families mentioned, he gets to build relationships. He gets to read books. and he will not face the death penalty.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, it wasn't long before the University of Idaho professor sued the Ticktokker, Gillard, claiming Gillard was spreading lies about her, the professor, and hurting her reputation. She also claimed it led to a loss of salary increases and mental distress. The professor. Rebecca Schofield was awarded $10 million in damages. Well, the TikToker, Ashley Gillard, fights back, claiming she did not get a fair trial due to, quote,

fabricated evidence, and claims the professor lied under oath. She, the respondent, Ashley Gillard, also claims she was, quote, targeted and punished for her spiritual beliefs. Nobody cares about your spiritual beliefs. What they do care about is libel and slander. She claims her practices were, quote, even referred to as witchcraft. What? Terro card readings. Okay. That said, she demands the judge throw out the $10 million vote. Let me remind everybody. Brian Koeberger pled guilty after overwhelming evidence, including DNA, points to his guilt. This is what happened.

Chris McDonough, every conviction, every felony conviction gets appealed. Done. Check. So to say, oh, we did it to avoid an appeal. That's, let me just say legal term, crap. Because you know every case, that is a conviction, gets appealed. If they cannot afford a new appellate attorney, the state will give them an appellate attorney for free. So it's no skin off the state's back to say, oh, now there's no chance of appeal.

That bought me nothing. So what do you make of what the prosecutor did? And I'm sick of looking at him crying in court. Save the tears. The people that are crying are the victim's families. So you know what? Suck it up, man. Go ahead, McDonough. You know, Nancy, you are a thousand percent right.

Once again, this case has been driven by emotional mitigation for the horror of these events. And I have information that they met with the AG's office, and the AG's office did not invite the families to the table. They sent that email out with an attachment letter. And the discussion was there was half of the victim's. families that wanted the deal and half did not. But the AG leaned towards the cost of the trial. Up to $15 million was a projection. And so they went with the state and they left the victims out to try. And part of that deal would be he would have to write out, you know, exactly what he did. But that information is not available yet. And so Chris McDonough, please, stop. Are you saying

Yep. The part of the deal, it was a deal for the defendant, not for the state or the victim's families, was that Brian Koeberger write out what he did. In other words, I committed murder. I committed murder. What, write it out 500 times. And it's all over. Are you serious? That I'm going to believe what Brian Koberger says. That was the deal. That's what I got out of this. Yeah, that's my understanding as well, Nancy. It's horrible. I mean, you know, that, DAs have enough, you know more than anybody, how many times would guys like me come to you and present a death penalty case? And you guys have an ethical responsibility to file a death penalty enhancement with the idea, though, that you're not going to extract a plea. In this case, did this DA go into this whole thing knowing he was going to extract a plea all along? If so, I just find that's disturbing as well if that's the case. I mean, the reality is that you expect straight out to Andy Kahn joining me, Director of Victim Services and Advocacy, Crime Stoppers, Houston, Texas, they don't play. I mean, really, Andy?

What I got out of this? I gave up a jury trial, right? The state, not me. The state gave up a jury trial. gave up ever giving the family answers about what really happened. They'll never know, you know, Andy Kahn, in my fiance's case, he was murdered, as you know, shortly before our wedding. I know what happened.

There was a trial. I know what happened. He had a summer job on a construction crew. He was out in a remote rural area building, I think an office building with a crew. He left at lunchtime to go get soft drinks for everybody else. He comes back in. And an angry employee that had just been fired, sees the company truck and opens fire on Keith and shoots him five times in the neck, the face, and the back. And he died. That's what happened. Okay, it's been twisted around in the media. Nancy. That's what happened. How do I know that? Because there was a trial. And they gave all that away so we could get a, I did it, I did it. I did it, I did it five pages, write 100 times, and you're free from Brian Koberger?

Like, he's going to tell the truth, Colin? I'll tell you, Nancy, I serve on the board of parents and murdered children and surviving family members of homicide. I've been with them for over 30 years. This is about the ultimate sucker punch that I've seen in my over 30 years. What's changed in three years? Nothing. The defense ran out of options. The decision was made three years ago to seek death.

nothing changed up until the time the defense waved their white flag and said, we give up, we give up, we give up, we'll cut a deal with that. There's no mitigating factors. Families for the last leave that a trial was imminent, and for you to say the plea deal is in the best interest of everybody, get real, to quote someone I know very well that I'm talking to right now, that's a bunch of BS. And I have a really big problem with the way this was handled, the plea to you're sending a form letter. That's really cold. That is about unemotional announcing your decision. Victims' families deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, and they deserve better from this prosecution.

The death penalty in this country is so very rarely sought to begin with. And for those that are truly worthy of the ultimate punishment, Brian Koberger is at the top of the list right there. Why even have a death penalty if you're not going to use it? I mean, you know, that's what I was just about to ask you, Andy Kahn, because if, and I'm not debating death penalty, no death penalty. We have the death penalty. So if you've committed to having the death penalty,

is there a better case than murdering for innocent, unarmed University Idaho students asleep or sleepy in their beds, of stalking them, of identifying them. And you, the purve, who have been Googling and searching, raping women who are asleep, passed out, comatose, you fulfill your fantasy and you murder four people, one of them running down the students. is trying to get away from you. You chase her down and murder her. So if we're going to have the death penalty, what is that not the poster case for the DP? Why have the death penalty if you're not going to have it for Coburger?

Basically, the state of Idaho is basically abdicated the death penalty for any future cases if you're not going to do it for Brian Coburger. When you take four lives, especially in the manner that he did, this is a lot of the way. is the only possible outcome. The families now get zero answers. They get nothing out of this. And basically, you're allowing him to call the shots. The evidence was so clear and convincing he slaughtered four young college students. He deprived one, two, three, four people of their lives. And you're not going to deprive him of him. Where's the equity in that? Or at least, offer it to a jury, this heaping pain on the victim's families. Now they have this to carry with

them the rest of their lives that the state didn't even try. What are they afraid to try a case for Pete's sake? That's your job, man, to get in there and do the best you can win or lose. To Joseph Scott Morgan again, the host of a hit series podcast Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. And Joe Scott, explain the injuries to the four victims. What we know, Nancy, is that these are a collection of shark force injuries. I think people have simply assumed that they're all stab wounds. We know that based upon one of the victims, well, actually several of them, that some of these injuries are more than likely in sized wounds, which are slices.

So you've got a combination of both of these. Either way, you have a milled blade that's penetrating the skin. Stab wounds, the way we delineate them from incised wounds, is that stab wounds are deeper than long, and incised wounds are longer than deep. So you know you're a Shakespeare officianto, you know, the, what is it, death by a thousand cuts, that idea applies here as well.

It's painful. It would not have gone quick. quickly. This was a very bloody affair. And, you know, I think therein lies a real tragedy, Nancy, because he will not be held to account for this carnage in the sense that we would want him to be held in account. I'm not talking about the death penalty here either. I'm talking about having to hear about this in court and actually what he did so that it burned. into his ears so that, you know, you think you're reliving it right now. He's, you know, in this kind of fantastic state in his brain.

This is not fantastic. This is reality. He will be able to sit there and hear what they have to say. But, of course, that ain't going to happen. It's never going to happen now because the DA has offered this plea. It's been accepted. And we're left wanting. Correction.

And I so rarely get to do this. this, but dying 1,000 deaths is from Shakespeare. Death by a thousand cuts is from Imperial China. But that said, joining me now in addition to Andy Kahn and renowned Joe Scott Morgan, Dr. Kendall Crowns is joining us, Chief Medical Examiner, Terrant County, that's Fort Worth, never a lack of business in their morgue. and he is a star of a new podcast set to launch Mayhem in the morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine and is joining us now.

Dr. Kendall Crowns, following up on what Joe Scott Morgan just told us, what actually caused the deaths of the four students? What did their lungs fill up with blood and they asphyxiated? Did their heart get slashed? I mean, how does a knife attack? like that end up actually killing you as opposed to being wounds that could be repaired in the ER. So in stab wounds and in size wounds, you basically die from blood loss. They're going to be bleeding from all these wounds, bleeding out onto the bed or the surface around them, and also they'll be bleeding internally. So their

chest cavity will fill up with blood and it'll make it hard for their lungs to expand, which will cause them to basically suffocate in their own blood. If the heart is hit, the heart can actually bleed into the sac surrounding the heart, which is called the paracardial sac. And that fills up with blood. It makes it hard for the heart to beat, and you die from heart failure that way. And then also if there is compromise where the lungs are stabbed and then it communicates with the airway, you can be coughing up blood and then reshawowing the blood and inhaling the blood and dying that way.

So it's a combination of the blood loss with the possible asphyxiation from blood filling the chest cavity or heart failure from blood filling the paracardial sac or compromising the heartbeat. It's any number of things, but it's essentially blood loss. Tell me exactly what's going on. One of the roommates who passed out and she was drunk last night and she felt like me up. Oh, and they saw some man in their house house outside. in Moscow, Idaho with the intent to commit the felony crime of murder? Yes. Did you, on November 13, 2012, in LATO County, state of Idaho, kill and murder, Madison, Mogan, a human being?

Yes. And did you do that willfully, unlawfully, deliberately, and with premeditation, and malice of forethought? Yes. Okay. Okay, so the state does a deal with the devil, the devil being Brian Koeberger in this scenario, and for what? To get Brian Koeberger's version of what happened that night? There have been a lot of attacks online and called bombing the judge in this case. Alert.

The judge cannot force the state to go forward with the death penalty. The judge cannot force the state to go forward on any prosecution. The judge can forward a lack of prosecution to the state's AG to review what's happening within the district attorney's office. But the judge can't make the state do anything. The state can't make the judge do anything. It's a balance of power. So everybody call bombing and email.

the judge. So just follow this through. Let me bring in Philip Dubay, guys, our renowned attorney in the LA jurisdiction. DuBaye, under our law, the judge is immune from being forced by the state or the defense to really do anything. For instance, if the judge had rejected the plea and said, hey, I want the death penalty to hey with this. The state could have actually just gotten another judge to take the plea. The state cannot force, the judge cannot force the state to seek the death penalty. It doesn't work that way. Could you explain it, Philip DeVay? Yes, we have what's called the separation of powers, both at the state and the federal level. And what that means is we have three coordinate branches of government. We have the executive branch,

which is basically the governor, the attorney general, and prosecutors. And of course, we have the legislative branch, which at the federal level is Congress. At the state level, we have the legislature. And certainly at the local level, you have your city council. Additionally, we have the judiciary, which is our courts. And to ensure that we have this fair balance of power, neither branch can encroach upon the powers of either. Otherwise, you get anarchy and you get an unjust system.

And here, what you have is prosecutors within the executive branch alerting the judiciary that a settlement has been reached. Yes, the court can reject that settlement agreement, but the prosecution doesn't have to go forward with penalty. The prosecution can just go forward with the guilt phase. And if the jury would have come back guilty on all four homicides, then Brian Koberger would have got what we affectionately call Elwap, Life Without Perkins. role. So it was a lose, lose for the court. And sadly, it is a lose, lose for the victim's families.

On the brighter side of things, though, the case is over. He will never get out. There will be no appeals. They will never, ever be able to decide whether or not the denial of this motion was accurate, whether or not the Atkins denial was accurate regarding his... You don't know that. You don't know any of that. Remember when Charles Manson, remember him? Psycho Freaky Killer? Yes. Remember that? The Manson murders.

There's been a lot of movies about it. Yes. Charles Manson got the death penalty. Didn't he? Didn't he get the death penalty? That's a yes. Yes. Okay, he got sentenced to the death penalty, and what happened?

The law changed. Correct. The law changed. Right? Yes. And suddenly the death penalty was gone, and he came up over and over and over to be released on parole. Can you just agree to that much debate?

I know you'll want to fight with me. but isn't that much true? Yes. It is true. Okay, straight to Andy Kahn joining us. Director of Victim Services and Advocacy for Crime Stoppers, Houston. Andy Kahn, remember that moment when all the laws were reversed and Charles Manson got life. The law was changed.

Now, I understand what Deubei is saying, and I agree with him, believe it. or not to a certain extent. But we don't know what wild hair is going to get up the rear ends of the Idaho Assembly, do we? Or the federal government. We don't know what's going to happen, but I do know if Coburgers put to death, that cannot be reversed. Who's to say, or who's not to say that in 10 years somebody would rule, I know it sounds crazy, that life behind bars is cruel and unusual. It's already been argued thousands of times that that's cruel and unusual punishment, life behind bars without parole. It's already been argued. Who's to say some crazy judge doesn't go along with it? And he walks. No one is to say that. We've seen this

time and time again. And I tell victims families, look, here's reality. Life without parole today doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be life without parole 10, 20 years from now, and we've seen this repeated over and over again. The other thing that we are now seeing right now is so-called elderly mercy release, and particularly in the state of New York, where they're looking at everyone from the ages of 55 and over for potential parole, including a serial killer by the name of David Berkowitz. So again, it sounds good on the premise,

life without parole. You're never going to breathe free air again. That's it. You don't have to worry about this appeal, that appeal. But I have seen it. You have seen it. Things change. Jurisdictions changed. And this is why you're going to have to keep a close abs on this, you know, right now today. The bottom line, from my perspective in this case, is you let a cold-blooded murderer win. You allowed him to call the shots. You allowed him to dictate his own terms, including, I don't have to say anything except for one word, yes, that's going to come back and haunt the state of Idaho and it's going to come back and haunt victims' families for years down the road. DeBay, I know that you're a great trial lawyer. I know you went a lot of cases for criminals

to walk free. I can't stop that. I know you've got a great singing voice since you burst out into song at Christmas with, oh, holy night. I know that. But I don't know. But I didn't know you were a clairvoyant. Please, go get your crystal ball and your turban because I want to see you predict that the law won't change regarding life without parole or mercy for the elderly and Coburger never walks free. Okay, waiting. Oh, are you going to read the tea leaves? Would that work better for you? It'll never change. Tarot cards, never mind. Terro cards. Go ahead. It'll never change in the state of Idaho. It might if he were a youthful offender at the time of the crime. But he was, what, a I'm 28, 29 years old.

So it's not as if he was deprived of review of all the youthful facts. So you are a clairvoyant? Pretty much. And it's based on statistics. It's based on what's going on across the country. You and Scott Peterson. You and Scott Peterson. Oh, yeah, and

O.J. Simpson and his dream sequence that he really killed Nicole Brown. I didn't need his dream to tell me that. So you are of sorts of clairvoyant. Con, I'm giving you the last word on that. We're seeing it right now, at least in several states, where they're taking a look at anyone from the ages of 55 or older, no matter what the actual sentence is for potential senior

release based upon the age factor. So it's happening. You can't say unequivocally that life without parole for Colberger means he will never get out because we're watching it right now. I'll call you. I was the only person that totally good. He didn't give us to public to negotiate with us. He didn't even pretend. He could have just pretended and lied,

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Stream us on your phone. Listen now at iHeartRadio.ca. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The scenarios that spin out of high-profile cases are mind-boggling. And now we learn a TikToker who falsely accused a professor of having a hand in the murders is fighting a $10 million judgment against her. Regardless of what the TikToker claims, this is what happened to the four Idaho students. I'm just not reporting it.

I want you to hear from Kelly Gonzalez's father, who has been very open about the role. pain he has been enduring since his daughter was murdered. Take a listen to Mr. Consum. He's going to own this. He's going to inherit what Thompson did, and he's the only one that can fix it. He's the only one who can make the right. He needs to protect those other surviving victims and make this person say that they had nothing to do with it. He did it solely. He did it all on his own, and nobody else was responsible, and then we won't keep having this. these supporters always saying that he, you know, he got set up. We know what he's planning on doing.

Somebody died, a vet, died, and he's going to try to say that you put the blame on that person. So he's not going to take accountability. And Thompson didn't force him to take accountability. He didn't even negotiate. According to the Gonzalez and others, none of them were consulted. No one had any input into the prosecutor who wrote down crying in court when he did it. Deal with the devil. Listen. You didn't agree.

He only negotiated with the governor of... I'll call you before I was the only person that he'll negotiate. He didn't give us to call it to negotiate it to negotiate with us. He could have just pretended and then lied, but he didn't even pretend. He basically said, your guys is in, what is in? Straight out to Hermania Rodriguez, the chief U.S. reporter for DealingMail.com. What happens now, Hermania? Well, we're going to have still a sense.

interesting hearing where hopefully the victim's families will get a chance to tell Brian Koberger what these horrific crimes have done in their lives. Kovberger should also have a chance to say anything if he so chooses, but from what we have seen, he doesn't have much to say. In court, he only said yes with no expression. And then finally, he will be moved to a maximum security prison for worst of the worst. It's actually where a lot of, there's also a death It's where Chad Daybell, the cult leader or also serial killer, is held. And he will be there for his life according to the plea deal, though. I know, as you said, there is a possibility that who knows in the future what could happen

and he could be released. The only way he wouldn't be released is if he was put to death, okay? Because we know, Hermania, the law can change because it has changed post-sentencing in murder cases. And the one I gave you was Charles Manson is just one example. But two special guests joining us in addition to Hermione Rodriguez's daughter Chavon Scott, psychotherapist. She is a bestselling author.

Her newest release is Nightbird. She also wrote The Minds of Mass Killers, Understanding and Interrupting the Pathways to Violence. Good luck with that. And game addiction, the experience and the effects. Dr. Javon Scott, thank you for being with us. I asked Hermannia Rodriguez from DailyMell.com what happens now. And she was correct. But there's a lot more to that story.

This is what happens. Brian Koeberger will do a book deal. The son of Sam laws were reversed by the U.S. Supreme Court. All right? People think, oh, they can't profit will in many jurisdictions. They can unless the state has enacted its own state claim. against it. He'll write a book. There will be a made-for-TV movie. There will probably be another movie about his side of the story, his memoirs. It will talk about his childhood,

how isolated he felt and so forth and so on. He's going to have pen pals behind bars. Women are going to try and have conjugal visits with him. I mean, look at Luigi Mangione, right? There is a group out there called the Pro Burgers that support Brian Coburger. They will send him money. He may even get married behind bars like Yorne Vandersluet. He's had, I think, two children from behind bars. He has drugs. He has alcohol. He has women. He has parties. That is what is going to happen now. And I predict this, Dr. Chavon Scott, that one day there will be a big, symposium, a conference of crimpro, criminal procedure, students, much like you teach in Joe Scott Morgan, and the guest of honor will be zoomed in from the penitentiary. And that

renowned guest will be Brian Coburger, where he will develop even more groupies. That's what's going to happen. Yeah, a perverse celebrity. And when we look at it from the point of view that you just laid out for us. He has a far richer life than he ever had free, which is very twisted, but I think you're right. He's now in the ranks of Bundy, one of his idols, and it's sickening. It's absolutely sickening and disturbing. And I can only imagine how the families feel because they were given no sense of control over any of this. which I think is really important for their healing to have a sense of control here. Why do you say that? I'm very curious. Because I distinctly remember, I don't know that the

prosecutor does, but I remember, and Keith's family remembers, before my fiance's murder trial ever happened, the prosecutor came and spoke to us about what he thought was the best course of action and how we felt about it and what was our input. I was so out of it. I've just, you know, hardly even remember all the words that were said, but I remember the gist of the conversation. I remember what went down. I remember what Keith's parents said. And we did have, they did have that control to an extent. I mean, the family doesn't get to call the witnesses or put up the evidence, but they can steer the ship, right, if they want to. What do you, how does control help anything. I think the act of having your loved ones murdered is, I mean, we are also protective of

our kids, right? It's just we want to have some benign, benevolent control over the way their lives go. We want to protect them. And to have your kids murdered in this kind of way, that psychological need is just ripped away from you. And I think it's just important to feeling some kind of emotional stability again to feel like, okay, this horrible thing happened, I'm completely devastated. This has changed my identity forever, changed the trajectory of my life. But at least I get this little bit of power over this, you know, search for justice, this attempt to get some kind of justice here. And I think it's a psychological need that most people have. Andy Con, director of Victim Services in Houston through crime stoppers.

Andy, what's happened here, if it can even be imagined, is after losing their child to whom they poured in all their love, all their money, all their time, their hopes, their dreams. Yeah, I mean, I've got a life, but come on, Andy, you know about my twins, they're my life now. They are my life. no pressure twins but to have that ripped away number one then to have it ripped away the way that they were murdered that they were murdered at all but then the way that they were murdered then the way the victims have been dragged through the mud as being partiers and horrors and sluts and blah blah blah they were out too late they were drinking oh no that whole thing happened And now this, behind their backs.

You heard Gonzalbis, he wasn't consulted. What an emotional roller coaster for all these families. And you let a wannabe budding Ted Bundy, I'm going to be a serial killer, beat you. And that's the reality right there. And you haven't heard the last of Brian Coburger, because guess what? Exactly what you were saying earlier.

He is going to talk, but he's going to do it on his own terms. He is going to write his memoirs. For my knowledge right now, I don't see anything in the prospective plea deal preventing him from meeting with journalists, from sending out submissions, from talking about himself. And as someone who's been basically monitoring what we now call murderabilia, and that's items that are sold from high profile defendants, killers, serial killers on the open market. He's about to become the new darling. A deal goes down in a court of law, a deal with the devil.

The prosecutor in the Brian Koeberger case actually crying in court, choking on his words, and he should have, according to the victim's families. Joining me now special guest, Dr. Dwayne Hendricks. Dr. Hendricks, former warden at the MDC in Brooklyn, that's no piece of cake, but also served as warden in Sheridan, Oregon. Former Senior Warden with the U.S. Department of Justice with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, founder-president of A New Daylight Foundation, author of Who Are You, See It, Say It, Sees It. Dr. Dwayne Hendricks, who shot to fame during the Sean Combs investigation, Dr. Hendricks, what can you tell me about where Coburger will be housed, most likely?

Yeah, he'll be housed at the Idaho Maximum Security Institution near Coona, Idaho, which is nearly six hours from where he brutally murdered those four beautiful souls. It has a, the maximum security prison has capacity of 549 inmates, and he'll be one of over 130 individuals serving a life sentence without prison. role. His day-to-day activities will be very routine and focused on stringent security as maximum security facilities has the greatest amount of focus on security and restricted movement. And while the Idaho Department of Corrections website doesn't clearly explicitly talk about what programming is available to those who are incarcerated there, I would beg to guess that

he'll probably be involved in some cognitive behavior therapy. as well as mental health treatment. And additionally, he will be able to visit on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sundays. And I was listening to the conversations earlier with the other guests. There is no conjugal visits at this particular maximum security institution. That's what they all say. And yet women get pregnant. Yeah.

Don't they? Yes, they do. And typically that's probably due to a staff member, a volunteer, or someone that's coming or a contract coming into those institutions that that does happen. Dr. Hendricks, Dr. Hendricks, Dr. Hendricks, you know how I feel about you, but I'm calling objection BS because you know what? I just covered a case where the jailhouse seamstress, please remind me of the name of that. Oh, wait, it's all coming to me, Casey White. Wasn't that to defend it? Yeah. The jailhouse seamstress goes in a closet and has affairs, sex,

with a convicted felon. You think that was sanctioned? No, it wasn't. And it all ended at an escape with her helping and a shootout. Thinky, thinky. It happened. It happens all the time

where inmates get women pregnant. You do know about the birds and the bees, right? Dr. Hendon's, you do know where babies come from. I think you do, don't you? Yes, ma'am. I do. I have four beautiful children. Well, they just, you didn't pick them up at Walmart, Hendricks. You didn't pick them up at Walmart.

Okay. So, women get pregnant by inmates. However, you want to claim it happens. It happens. I don't care if it's an employee. I don't care if it's a warden. I don't care if it's a seamstress. It happens.

Isn't it true? They get drugs and alcohol and other contraband behind bars. That's a yes, no, Hendricks. Yes, it is. Everything that happens in the community happens behind those walls in the prison. It happens every day. And unfortunately, there could be more. Yes.

Drugs, alcohol, sex, they get tablets. We saw, sadly, I hate to bring it up, conjured up for your mind, but I saw Alex Murdoch on double killer in a shirtless selfie. Why did I have to see that from behind bars? Because he had a tablet. They get movie night. You said they have visits and therapy. visits and therapy. Dave Mack,

joined me, Crime Stories, Investigative Reporter. What is he saying? What they've got, Nancy, is when you get into this maximum security where Coburger is going to be, he's going to have a life, Nancy. That's the saddest part of all of this. He has access to everything that you would pretty much have on the outside. He's got his own room. He'll have his own private area.

He'll have an hour a day to go out and do whatever recreation he chooses to do. He can go to the library, a multi-purpose room, and go outside. He'll have access to his own TV. He'll have his tablet like you were talking about. We've seen that so many times. He can watch older movies. His vegan diet, Nancy, you know, that's something that hasn't been talked about lately. Well, it will be totally accommodated.

You're making me choke again. Wait a minute. Dr. Dwayne Hendricks, did you not hear what Dave Mack just said, vegan diet? Yes. You do know. Yes. They're going to give him special meals, right Hendricks? Yes. If he is not on a flesh diet, they call it common fare in the prison setting.

And basically he'll get vegetables, fruits, and protein. He'll be on a no-flesh diet. That's what we would call it. We didn't call it vegan. We call it no-flesh. Okay. Stop everything. Just stop everything. Dr. Kendall Crowns, you, of course, are a... a renowned medical examiner, the esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine. You're the star of a podcast about to launch Mayhem in the morgue. You've handled mass killings. You've seen what happens to the victims.

Are you hearing this, Dr. Kendall Crowns? That Brian Koeberger is going to get to watch movies, have visitation, therapy, and special meals prepared for him as he writes. his memoirs, thoughts? Well, it is the unfortunate way that our legal system and our justice system works in which the murderer and the perpetrator of the violence and the terror on individuals is allowed

to then have a very comfortable life in a basically a hotel and given anything and everything they want. It is what it is. Movie night, special vegan meals, visitations, memoirs. That's what Brian Coburger will be doing behind bars. While the victim's families not only remember their murdered children, but deal with the pain of being ambushed. According to them, several of them, they had no idea. This plea deal was in the works, and they

oppose it. So Dr. Dwayne Hendricks, joining us, former warden, you didn't tell me about movie night, did you? Or special meals? What happened to that? What's he going to do next week? Have yoga therapy? No. What, maybe a facial and a massage? Oh, wait, a mud bath? What? What's next? What's next? Is he going to have a secretary taking down his memoirs as he dictates? No, but he might have an inmate that might want to take the mills for him. If a cellmate might want to do that. But in terms of just his meals, I mean, if he doesn't want to eat me, he doesn't have to. And the crazy thing out of all of this, most individuals serving life sentences for every year that they're, you know, every year they're incarcerated, you can typically take two years off their life. And I hope I'm not speaking out of turn. Doc, who's the medical examiner.

But if this guy is going to be living a somewhat healthy lifestyle, writing books, enjoying himself behind bars, this is another sort of slap in the face to the family. who most of them who objected to this plea agreement and not him not having a death penalty. A psychic TikTok influencer is now appealing a $10 million verdict in a University of Idaho defamation case. A woman, Asch Yulard, has been ordered to pay $10 million damages for making false claims about a female professor's alleged role in the murders of the four University Idaho students. That woman, Ashley Gillard, has now filed an appeal in federal court. She is challenging a jury verdict that found her liable for defaming Professor Rebecca Schofield.

A federal jury determined Gillard made false statements accusing the professor of planning the killings of the four students. It did not take the jury long at all to award $10 million in damages, including compensation tied to allegations about the murders and claims of an inappropriate relationship with a student. Just what a university professor does not want to hear. Tarot card readings, defamation, TikTok influencer, $10 million.

We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, crime stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.