Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Queens Jogger Karina Vetrano's accused killer wants confession tossed

Episode Date: December 21, 2017

The man charged with the brutal murder of Queens jogger Karina Vetrano gave a videotaped confession soon after his arrest, but his lawyer now argues no jury should ever hear it. Chanel Lewis has entered a not guilty plea and awaits trial. Nancy Grace looks at the Vetrano case with forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, death scene investigator Joseph Scott Morgan and DNA expert George Schiro. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. in Queens was presented during a pre-trial hearing. Karina Vetrano was murdered while jogging at Howard Beach. The 30-year-old was found dead. Her body was discovered just 15 feet away from a trail that she and her father ran together nearly every day. But back pain forced him to stay at home the afternoon she was killed. Detective say Chanel Lewis

provided a detailed confession to the crime and police collected DNA samples from scores of young men before focusing on Lewis. Kathy Vetrano shared this chilling message to the person who killed her daughter, Karina. The whole entire world knows what a pathetic, puny, weak piece of filth that you are. The retired firefighter has a message of his own for the attacker. Justice will be served. A beautiful young girl goes jogging every day with her father, a retired firefighter. They're very close soulmates. One day he decides he's down in the back, as we say, and he doesn't go. She goes jogging, but then an hour passes, then an hour and a half, and he, the dad, knows instinctively that something is horribly wrong and begins frantically calling her cell phone.

He doesn't waste time. He immediately calls police. Together, they retrace her typical jogging route, and it is her own father, Phil Vetrano, that finds his daughter dead. And now, a shocking twist to the already disturbing story. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Now we learn that the man who turned the Vetrano's world upside down, who led police on a wild goose chase for months and months and months, and now is the poster boy for something called familial DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid, has given a confession to the brutal murder and rape of Karina Vetrano. But now he says, I'm not guilty.

Not guilty. He'll have to argue it was a coerced or fake confession. And what about the DNA? Should this even be allowed? I want to go straight out to a special guest joining me, in addition to Joseph Scott Morgan, homicide investigator, forensics expert. With me is Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. And also with me, my special guest today, George Sciro, director at Scales Biological Laboratory, with over 30 years of experience as a forensic expert, a scientist, and crime scene investigator. First to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, I want to review the facts. But before we do, I want you to hear what Karina's father, Phil Vetrano, a retired firefighter, tells me.

It was August 2nd, broad daylight. She left the house around 5.30. You know, she said, Daddy, I'm going to go for a run. And she asked me if I wanted to come. And I said, I can't today, Kareem, because my back is hurt. And I asked her, are you going to go in there, meaning the trail in the weeds? And she said, yeah. And I said, Kareem, do you think it's a good idea? She said, don't worry, Daddy, I'll be okay. And she went off. And she was only gone 20 minutes when this feeling came over me,

like something was wrong. So I called her phone at 627, 628, 630. I was watching the news. I was eating dinner. And I just said, damn. I didn't say damn, but a word similar to damn. And my wife had just gotten home from the hospital. And she said, what's the matter? And I said, Corrine is not answering her phone.

And my wife didn't even know she went out for a run. So I went looking for her. And I walked the trail where we usually run. I stopped about 200 feet from where she was because I didn't think we ever went that far. And I turned around and I came out. I called a friend of mine in the PD, and I told them, Karina's missing. She's not answering our phone. And within 15 minutes, we had patrol cars. Within a half hour, we had helicopters, we had bloodhounds. We had 300 people looking for her.

They happened to unlock her phone. She had an Apple product, which was very difficult to unlock. But because Karina had asthma, they were able to unlock the phone and we found the location. And at 10.30, I went to where the phone was found. And I just, she called me. You know, she came to me and called me and led me to where she was. And I just walked into the weeds and found her. When you say she came to you, did you hear a voice in your head?

What happened? No, it's the same way that I got the feeling when I was watching the news, when I knew something was wrong. Karina and myself, we weren't just, you know, father and daughter. She was like my best friend. And we did everything together. You find your cell phone, and then what happens? Well, the cops found the cell phone. So I went to where the police were. There were about 15 cops there at the time. There was bloodhounds. There was a helicopter with heat sensor on it. And I said, where's the phone? And they pointed in a direction, he said, about 50 feet in. And, you know, they didn pitch black now. And I start walking deeper into the trail, you know, just walking. And then I told myself or somebody or something told me no.

So I turned around and I walked in the other direction. I got to about 50 feet from where the phone was on the trail and I just stopped and I you know there's a trail to the right and there's a trail to the left you can go any of the way and the weeds are eight feet high and I just stopped I turned to my right I looked at the weeds and I just walked in, and I made it about 30, 35 feet, and that's where she was. You know, she needed her father. She needed me to find her. There's no question. To Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, what this guy says in court, Chanel Lewis, is so disturbing.

The family heard this. They have personally reviewed his videotaped confessions. He says that, I was mad. I saw red. He also denies raping her and says, I guess, he says he killed her. I guess what, somebody else raped her. And so he's going to say that coincidentally somebody just happened to rape her and then he came in and killed her. Quote, he says he grabbed Vetrano as she ran past him through a marshy swamp that she clawed at his face. And he hit her five times before she was knocked unconscious.

Quote, she didn't yell. She was finished. I finished her off. I strangled her. She fell into the puddle and drowned, he says coldly on videotape. I got up. I wiped off the blood and she was calm. She was in the pool of water. It was like all the way over her face, he says, of the puddle. And after telling police how he, quote, finished her off, he seemed to think he could pay his way out of a murder one charge. He says, quote, I can straighten out my stuff.

I mean, you're the DA, right? Where do we go from here? Is this a restitution program or something? What? Quote, I finished her off. Then he goes on, Joe Scott, to insist he did not molest her, even though her jogging shorts had been pulled down. I did, quote, I didn't do any of the stuff they said, sex assault, stuff like that.

He says he then walked home up the bike path quote shaken up he was shaken up Joe Scott hoping to get napkins to quilt the bleeding from the scratches on his face and then when he was asked why he attacked the jogger who has a name it's Corinna Vetrano he says because a guy moved into my house in the neighborhood. He said he was feeling a lot of anger. Okay, Justice Scott Morgan, you have been a witness in countless cases. I don't even know how many felonies I've tried or investigated. I want to hear your thoughts on this. Now pleading not guilty. Not uh that's an interesting interesting thing to say isn't it let me throw you one other thing that he said as well uh he's also quoted as saying nancy

i beat her to let my emotions out i never really meant to hurt her it just happened so let me get this straight he he places himself there physically at the scene of the crime where he apparently laid in wait nancy this is a very narrow jogging path it's in a wooded area immediately adjacent to a beachside area where people take their families this young girl lived there this young lady lived there with her father. And he waited in the bushes until she jogged by. And then as he got past, as she got past his position, he attacks her while her back is to him. Then he drags her out into this marshy area. Now, he says,

I beat her. Let me tell you what else they're saying. She was apparently struck in the back of the head with some type of heavy object they're thinking possibly a rock now i don't know this definitively but she may very well have had a depressed skull fracture that happens many times with these types of strikes and then she was strangled and he's saying that he didn't he didn't molest her at all nancy you know she's wearing jogging pants. Now, as everybody can attest to, jogging pants don't just spontaneously fall off. Her pants had been pulled down. This is in a very, what we refer to as an asymmetrical position. She's face down, Nancy. Can you imagine in this

dirty, filthy marsh water, face down? She's been brutalized, beaten, strangled. She's bruised and scratched. All she wanted to do was go out for a jog. Her pants are down. And he, in this asymmetrical position where he's dominant over her, finally, finally just strangles out the last bit of life that she had left in her. He completely abused this woman. And to say that this wasn't sexually motivated, give me a break. This is a sexual attack. It's an attack of power. He raped her and he choked her. And you know what? He may have raped her after she was dead. We don't know.

But this we do know. He has left his DNA behind. and that is a tough tough mountain for any defense team to climb in this particular case well there should be a treasure trove of dna because let me add some more facts to that for our special guest george skiro to digest um again, when Corinna Vetrano had not returned, any of her dad's calls, and this really hits home, guys. You know, my dad passed away two years ago, and that was one of the things, one of the many things we did together. I would jog, and he would walk.

He had been a heart patient since his late 30s, and he walked, racewalk fast walk religiously and I would jog to keep up with him we did it on vacation we did it every time I went home to visit always just like Corinna Vetrano and her father Phil so when she didn't call back a couple of hours after she left he calls NY You know, he knows them because he was a firefighter. He found his own daughter's body. I mean, that is an image that will never get out of his mind, which I'll go to Dr. Bobron in just a moment. But this is what we know. Detectives say, as Joe Scott said, she had been hit in the back of the head with a rock, raped and strangled. She fought.

She cracked her teeth off while biting her attacker. She clenched grass in her hands as she was being dragged off the jogging track, trying to hold on. DNA was under her nails, on her back, which had to be semen, and on her phone in the weeds a few feet away. Now, she was out jogging alone. And when I say that, in fact, I almost didn't even want to say that, Joe Scott, because somehow, when I say she was out jogging alone, people find fault with that. Oh, she was jogging alone. what did she think was going to happen well fyi i go jogging or walking almost every day so what should i not do that am i bad for that i mean have you noticed that joe scott when we say she was jogging alone somehow that has a bad connotation yeah i mean what is she supposed to do? She's supposed to call, you know,

every friend that she has and every family member. This is something she's doing for personal fitness. This is something she's going out. And look, she has an expectation. She's been on this path with her dad over the past. It's probably a peaceful time that they can get together and enjoy one another. And this is, you know, that's what makes us all the more tragic, too. This place that she found a lot of joy with, with her dad probably, ends in this kind of horror. And no, she's not at fault for going out and just taking care of herself as she probably did on a regular basis day to day. And who would think that lurking over in the bushes is somebody that is acting in a predatory nature that just reaches out from behind after she's passed by, knowing what he's doing, and drags her off into this hell-filled last few moments of her life.

Joining me right now, as I have touted, is a renowned DNA expert. It is George Skiro, director of the Skills Biological Laboratory, with over 30 years of experience as a forensic scientist and a crime scene investigator. Before I go much further with the facts, George, I want to welcome you. Thank you for being with us here at SiriusXM 132. And I want you to enlighten us all. For those that may not be familiar with DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid, every single person has their own unique DNA. It cannot be replicated. It's like a biological

or genetic fingerprint. But what is familial DNA, George? Because they tried and they tried and they tried. They took the DNA off her body, George, and compared it to CODIS, which was the nationwide data bank of DNA. No matches. So it looked as if it wasn't anybody that had a record. They couldn't find the perp. It was excruciating. George, what is familial DNA? Well, thank you for having me, Nancy. Familial DNA searching is where a database is searched, a database of DNA profiles. It's searched to determine if there are any close matches that could have maybe come from a potential family member of a perpetrator of a crime to see if a link could be made that way. Then if there's a potential link made that way, and if it's a fairly strong familial DNA match, what they'll then do is get

a DNA sample directly from that individual to compare directly to the evidence that's found at the scene. So bottom line, if you get DNA on a crime scene to Justice Scott Morgan, and it doesn't match anybody in the DNA databank, if you can use, there's just a handful of states that allow the use of familial DNA, although I think that's changing. You then take the DNA and you compare it to anybody in the data bank and it can show up if their relative has been in jail. Then you have an idea. I'm like, oh, this is somebody related to Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, I'm going to go find Joseph Scott Morgan because he's in my data bank.

He's got a rap sheet. And I find Joe Scott Morgan. And I say, listen, familial DNA popped up and you're a hit. Got any ideas which one of your blood relatives might have done this thing? Who lives in this area? Who lives in this neighborhood? Blah, blah, blah. That's what familial DNA is.

So explain to me, Joe Scott, your take on familial DNA. You know, Nancy, the really great thing about this, as you know, I'm a college professor, and one of the things that I tell my students in class and the forensics classes I teach is that people are always really focused on things like positive findings in science. Well, the test was positive. I tell my students that negative findings are just as important as positive findings. And the reason is, is that in crime scene investigation and death investigation, one of the things that we're looking for is a starting place. If we have a negative finding, say for instance, that it doesn't appear in the CODIS database, that means we have a place

to start. That means that we can push that aside and begin to look in other locations. So this is going to be a tieback and it's going to give us an opportunity to dig deeper into who may have played a part in a particular case and in this case in particular. And this is essential because I think that this is a historic moment. This case has a lot of weight to it relative to what you just mentioned. Man, you're not kidding. You just brought familial DNA to the forefront yet again. And let me tell you, the ACLU, the defense bar, screaming, crying, whining that it's, quote, not fair. You know what? That's what John, Dave, and Lucy say when they have no other argument. That's not fair. And I always say, you know what? You're going to have to refine your argument and

come up with an actual reason I should not take your iPad away. And when you do that, I will listen, but it's not fair. It's not specific enough. So that's where we're standing right now. I want you to hear what the police are saying. Now, this guy who gives a videotaped confession about the death match he put on Karina Vetrano before she was raped and murdered, how she knocked her teeth out, struggling, tore at the grass to save her own life. He tells all this about how he drowned her in a puddle. Now he's pleading not guilty. I want to thank our partners who are making today's program possible, where we investigate the murder of a beautiful young girl and the devastation of her

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nancysbeats.com today. In fact, I need to drink about a gallon right now because I need energy. We are talking about the horrific murder of a beautiful young girl who had the audacity to go jogging one day. Her own father found her body, Phil Vetrano, a retired firefighter, who that one day was down in the back and did not go jogging with her as he usually did. Now joining me in addition to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics professor at Jacksonville State University and death investigator, the director of Scales Biological Laboratory, George Schiro, and now joining me, Dr. Daniel Bober, Forensic Psychiatrist. Dr. Bober, thank you for being with us.

I was just detailing the confession that he gave a great, a fine detail of the murder of this girl. How can he now? And it's on video. How can he now claim he didn't do it, Dr. Bober? Nancy, my concern about this case is that whether this confession was legally and voluntarily obtained. I was reading something about. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Dr. Bober, are you serious? Or are you just saying that for argument's sake? mean are you actually concerned it was illegally obtained it's on video well nancy you and i both know that even a video confession could still be illegally obtained i mean really how if it's on video how would you even suggest this was illegal because we don't know what happened before the video started rolling number one number two I was reading that this particular defendant attended a special school, and there's concerns about his capacity to give a voluntary confession. So that's my concern. Hold on.

Just let me put your mind to rest, Dr. Bober. He signed a statement saying he knows his rights, and on that statement are written his rights. Also on the video, he is given his rights. Yes, he did attend a private school for emotionally disturbed people. But are you suggesting that a confession of someone of a normal IQ with emotional disturbances is not fair because that's really not what the Constitution says, Dr. Bober. We're back at square one, Dr. Bober, where he gives a detailed, an intricate detailed statement about... Maybe too detailed. How? Well, what do you mean by it's too detailed dr bober that it could have been that

it could have been fed to him oh okay do you have any evidence of that either dr bober is that just more of your speculation well i'm sure his defense counsel will try the same thing yeah that's not an answer do you have any facts of support he was he was fed the story or you just speculating just speculating okay that's what i thought so back back to Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, joining me. Dr. Bober, when you say too much detail, I assume that if there was not enough detail, you would say, oh, there's not enough detail. This isn't real.

It's a false confession. Now you're telling me there's too much detail. So maybe he was fed the confession, but isn't it quite the coincidence that his detailed confession matches exactly to the forensic evidence, the way she was killed, the fact that her face was face down in a muddy puddle that totally covered her face, the fact that she fought, the fact that he jumped out from grass high grass I've seen it myself on the side of this jogging path and that she fought dragging the grass under her nails and grasping it to stay on the path and get away from him that he has his face covered and scratches where she

fought him actually breaking her teeth off, biting him. Are you saying it's just a mere coincidence that all of that forensic evidence matches his confession? Well, the detectives would have known a lot of that information too as well. So if they were going to feed it to him, they would have been the people to do it. Not to mention the fact that it's not as open and shut as we thought it was because the DNA evidence is shaky, too. So I'm not saying that. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. Let's just take one of your arguments at a time.

First of all, Dr. Bober, have you ever heard the old saying, you can't have your cake and eat it, too? That's a yes, no answer, Dr. Bober. So Dr. Bober, wouldn't you agree that either he's too emotionally disturbed to give a valid or legal confession, or he is so clever that he can hear all these facts and then regurgitate them without prompting over quite a period of time, hours in fact, he gives his statement. So you can't be so disturbed that you can't understand your rights. You have a right to a lawyer. You can't be that disturbed that you can't think straight

and be able to give a lengthy confession that was fed to you earlier. And remember, every forensic detail is shocking clarity. It's either one or the other. So which story are you picking, Dr. Bober? Well, Nancy, he was there. He was in the station for quite a while, for several hours. And I believe an attorney for, I believe, a legal aid society who was actually an expert in false confessions was read the tape or heard the tape of him giving the confession and said that it sounded like it was scripted. I'd be curious to know who paid that expert in false confessions and how many times that expert in false confessions

ever testified for the state or do they make their living of representing and helping defendants charged with violent felonies? So now you're telling me that it kind of sounds like, hey, I know a guy. Yeah. So Dr. Daniel Bober says he heard some guy that said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that says he heard the confession that then said, oh, sounds coerced to me. So who's the guy, Dr. Bober? Who is this expert? I believe he was with the New York Innocence Project. I can find out the name for you, but I don't have a name.

Oh, so you don't know his name or when he said it or if he ever really even listened to the confession. It's just something what you read online? Well, that's where I read the story. You know what? I've got some property I'd like to sell you. It's a little swampy, but I'm pretty sure it's real valuable, Dr. Bober. Now, Dr. Bober, let's go back to another thing you said. You said the DNA was shaky.

The DNA evidence found on her body is, quote, shaky, according to Dr. Daniel Bober. Why is it shaky, Dr. Bober? What I had read, Nancy, was that there was actually a mixture of DNA under her fingernails and that they couldn't definitively tie the DNA evidence to the defendant. That's what I had read. I could be incorrect about that assumption, but that's what I read. They found DNA from the defendant on her back. There was a drinking bottle, like an Arizona tea bottle, out in the weeds that matched somebody else. That has not been linked to the crime. It was in the vicinity out on a public jogging trail.

I want to go to Joseph Scott Morgan, who is joining me in addition to Dr. Daniel Bober, psychiatrist, and George Skiro, who has over 30 years of experience in DNA and crime scene investigation. Joe Scott, could you kindly give Dr. Bober a recap of the DNA in this case? The DNA that was found on her person has, from what has been indicated thus far, been a tieback to the accused. Now, I don't know how they would have gone about manufacturing this DNA evidence. And the odds, I think, are wholly against it that they could have fabricated such thing. And what would be their motivation behind all of this. I think that sometimes defense counsel utilizes the technology, attempts to use the technology that we use in forensics against us by trying to make it sound open. Can you talk regular people talk, please, Joe Scott? I mean, I know you're talking to a psychiatrist, but the rest of us are listening.

We can hear you, Joe Scott, so dial it down a minute, okay? Go. Bottom line is they try to confuse everybody. They want you to look in the right hand when the evidence is really in the left hand. And that's what it's all about. They're trying to create reasonable doubt here. But I tell you who really needs to comment on this is George. George Shiro.

Because I tell you this. The reality is this. The odds. The odds in this case will blow your mind. Okay. You know, I was trying to get it an irregular people talk from you, Joe Scott, before I went to our DNA expert, but that got me nowhere. George Skiro, I know you're the director at the Skills Biological Laboratory,

but could you dial it down a notch? This is why I had to go and meet with medical examiners before trial, so we could go through each line. And let me tell you, it took hours to deal with a doctor and go through each line of his or her report to get them to explain it in terms we could all understand, even if we don't have a medical degree. So George, please explain to me and especially to Dr. Daniel Bober the significance of the DNA in this case. Well, in this case, according to what I've read, there was DNA from Lewis found on her cell phone and on her back. And what's been reported, it's been reported as a match.

And a match usually indicates a single source. And then what will happen is whenever there's an inclusion or match we have to give a statistical weight to it and in this case the statistical weight will probably be in the trillions perhaps quadrillions if it's a complete match meaning that with the exception of a possible identical twin that that that Chanel Lewis is the source of that DNA sample on the back of the cell phone. In addition, there was a mixture that was found under the fingernails, and it's a mixture of several people, and they could not exclude Mr. Lewis.

But then again, once you have the two strong matches, that kind of outweighs everything else that might be or may be. Because when you have something, especially when it's a cold case like this, and it was a cold case, just not a very long-term cold case, and then you have someone's DNA profile developed on it, and then that person's DNA profile is later determined by taking a sample directly from that individual, then there's not going to be any, there's not going to be able to be anything saying that it was secondary DNA transfer or it was. Okay, okay, okay. You're going all MD on me right here. Hold on, George and Joe Scott,

Dr. Daniel Bober. So could you explain to me in your world, I'm not going to say fantasy world, but in your world, Dr. Daniel Bober, how Chanel Lewis, she had never met before, DNA ends up on her bare back. Well, he could have wandered up on the body after it was already assaulted as well and touched her body and her phone and wandered up on it. Oh, believe me, it's not that kind of DNA. It's not touch DNA. I have reason to believe it's sperm. You know, semen from sex. I got it.

But he also denied any sexual contact with the victim. So if it was semen, then that would make him a liar. Yeah. But I asked you again, what in your world and your world of false, coerced confessions and conspiracy plots. Dr. Bober, could you give me any reasonable explanation as to why his sperm or DNA is on her back and she's dead? Well, if it's semen, obviously, that's pretty damning evidence. What, Dr. Bober? What was that?

Could you repeat that for the court, please? It's pretty damning evidence. If it turns out to be a biological material, if it's semen, then it's pretty damning evidence that he committed the crime. I was hoping you were going to go down the road of the police planted it, like in O.J. Simpson, and then I could wait to tell you that, yes, he gave DNA. Well, you have to.

You can't not give DNA if you have a warrant for it. Unlike giving a statement, you never have to do that. But it was a buccal swab, which was from his mouth. And if I'm correct, that this is sperm on her back, you know, believe me, he did not give that up. He gave a buccal swab, which is saliva. Guys, I want to pause in our investigation to the brutal murder of the jogger, Karina Vetrano, who was an accomplished woman, had graduated, gorgeous, had a wonderful job and a bright future, now dead. And the man accused of killing her gives a chilling, chilling, heart-stopping confession. Quote, I finished her off and she was calm. I guess she was.

She was face down in water in a pool of mud. Now, he says, he's not guilty. We are investigating the facts as we know them with experts from around the country, including George Skiro, DNA expert, Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist and death investigator and forensics professor Joseph Scott Morgan. I want to thank now our partner who is making today's investigation possible. If you're like everybody else, you probably haven't said no very much to sugary sweets during the holiday season. But that is exactly why you need to schedule an appointment with an awesome dentist you can find at 1-800-DENTIST. Now, this is what I like about them.

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But little did anybody know that he, this person, this murderer, was not in the database. His DNA was never on file. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Yes. Oh, I just don't, I don't understand it feel because this is a, this is contrary to everything I know. And I know it to be true about criminal psychopathy.

You don't just suddenly one one day, commit a murder. It doesn't happen like that typically, especially a murder like this. It's so hard for me to believe he has never been in trouble before. And the reason we're talking about this, everyone, for a moment, I felt like I was just talking on the phone to Phil Vetrano.

This is Karina Vetrano's father. We're talking about DNA in the DNA database, CODIS, like APHIS, which is the fingerprint database. Everybody's in there if you have ever had a federal job, a government job, if you've ever gotten booked on anything. Now, sometimes people give fingerprints for all sorts of reasons. Pawn shops, you name it, that goes into APHIS. Now, there's CODIS for DNA. And if you are convicted in many jurisdictions, your DNA goes into a dataank. Whoever murdered this beautiful girl, their DNA, which was found at the scene, is not matching up to a database. A lot of people don't understand that only criminals' DNA are in the database. So we're only targeting criminals. With me, Joe Scott Morgan, Dr. Daniel Bober,

and George Skiro. George, could you explain what Joe Scott was saying earlier about the likelihood, the statistical likelihood, that this is Chanel Lewis's DNA? The statistical likelihood is going to be probably in the millions, trillions, or billions that it's his DNA, like I said, with the exception of identical twins, he will probably be identified as the source of that DNA. You mean like one out of a trillion likelihood? Yeah, the probability of randomly selecting someone from the population would be one in a trillion. Okay, hold on, let me think. So you're saying, say if I'm taking a Vegas bet, and you know, of course, George, I'm not a betting woman. You're saying that it's one out of three trillion or three trillion to one that this is his DNA.

I mean, how would you say that in common people talk so we can all understand what you're talking about? The way I would explain it is the probability of me closing my eyes and just going out anywhere in the world and grabbing someone, the probability of me grabbing someone with that profile would be one in however many trillion or quadrillion it may be. Well, wait, how many people are in the world? I mean, that's bigger than the world population, isn't it? Yes. Currently, the world population is around 7.2 billion. How did you just know that off the top of your head? That's a little freaky, George, just a tiny bit.

I wouldn't throw that out again just like that. I'd at least pretend I was looking it up on Google or something. But I'm going to just take your word for it because you've been right about everything else. To Dr. Daniel Bober, I want to get back to you about coerced confessions. I feel like a cat holding a mouse between my paws right now. It really feels good, Dr. Bober. Now, what about this whole coerced confession thing? And yes, I know that they do happen. I know that they can happen.

I know it's very, very rare, but that it can happen. But how can you even, let me just say, fix your mouth to say that this could be a coerced confession when his DNA is there and all everything he says matches the forensic evidence, Dr. Bober? Yeah, see, I'm not saying that it's extremely likely. I'm just saying that it's a possibility. Okay, now that's not exactly the way you sounded the first time I asked you, but you know what? I'll go with it. So what this means, bottom line, is that the family is going to have to live through a trial. And I'm looking at a shot of Chanel Lewis. He's actually smiling at the camera. I mean, I don't know how you do that. Kathy Vetrano lets out a pained moan as she hears for the first time Chanel Lewis calmly detail how he beat her daughter unconscious before he strangled her dead.

This video that I'm talking about, the reason we know so much about it, is because it was played at a pretrial hearing, and it showed the alleged killer describing to police the attack. I was mad, quote, I saw red, he says, as to why he killed her. And then he says that he killed Vetrano that he found on a jogging trail because a guy moved into my house and neighborhood. He says he grabs Vetrano as she jogged past that she clawed at his face and he beat her in the face five times before she was not unconscious. Quote, she didn't yell. She was finished.

I finished her off. I strangled her. She fell into the puddle and drowned. I got up. I wiped off the blood, and she was calm. She was in the pool of water. Then he goes on to say, after he, quote, finished her off, I can straighten out my stuff, right? This is about, where do we go from here?

Is this a restitution program or something? Dr. Daniel Bober, do you think they fed that to him too? Sounds pretty specific. It's possible, but again, I'm like. Before he confessed, he told a detective, Detective Barry Bowen, I want to change my life. I'm sorry for what I did. He insists he did not molest her, even though her

jogging pants had been pulled down. Quote, I didn't do any of the stuff they said, sex assault, stuff like that, according to the tape. Then he says he walked home, quote, shaken up, looking for napkins to stop the bleeding of the scratches on his face. It took six months to find him when he voluntarily gave a cheek swab and it matched DNA found under the victim's fingernails. Now, George Skiro, other than there being a potential accomplice, why would there have possibly been other DNA under her nails? That's not uncommon to see mixtures of DNA found under people's fingernails. Just coming in contact with everyday people, the people in your household, there's going to be other people whose DNA is going to accumulate there. And also there is a potential that, you know, whoever handled the

body afterwards, their DNA could have ended up there. Like I said, it's not uncommon to see mixtures under fingernails. I don't believe that there was any contamination. I'll tell you why. Because the father, who was a retired firefighter, calls in his friends at the NYPD. He was at NYPD. He was at NYFD, New York Fire Department. And they're there with their friend. And I think they gave very careful attention to bagging her hands.

Explain, Joe Scott. One of the steps that we'll take at a crime scene before the body is removed is that the bag will be specifically bagged in paper bags and taped around the wrist externally. And that way, in transport, first off, the hands of the deceased, you don't want them contacting anything that might otherwise leave some kind of trace evidence there. And also, anything that falls off of the hands in transport, remember, they're going back to the OCME and bouncing down the road. Things can literally fall away from the hand and you fail to collect them. So when bodies, and a lot of people don't realize this, when bodies arrive at the morgue in cases like this, the bags are carefully clipped away from the hands and the contents of anything.

Some of the stuff is not seen with the unaided eye. That means you have to have a microscope or a high-powered magnifying lens to see it. We're going to test everything that's in that bag. You just want to make sure that you don't lose anything. And this is standard operating procedure in almost every major city that I know of where coroners involved and medical examiners are involved. It's just the way we conduct business on a daily basis because we know these cases are going to come into question at some point in time. They're going to go back and they're going to look at these things with a fine tooth comb, making sure that we adhere to the rules of evidence. Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist joining us. I predict that this confession will come in.

I think the reason one of the reasons they're pleading not guilty is they hope they'll get a deal and some prosecutor will choose to take the deal rather than take it to trial. But I predict it will go to trial. So Dr. Bober, what would they have to show to make a valid argument, not that I believe it, but at least make a showing in court hoping one juror will get hung up on it,

that this is a quote, as you say, coerced confession. I would like to see neuropsychological testing on the defendant, a competency evaluation. I would just like to know more about his mental capacity. That's all I'm saying. I want to thank one other partner who is making our program possible, and it is Link AKC. If you're like me, you don't want to leave your pet out of all the fun this Christmas. And here's this year's quote must-have gift for dogs and their owners. It's the Link AKC Smart Collar. It's backed by the American Kennel Club. It's a GPS locator, a fitness activity tracker, and it's all controlled through your smartphone. It even has an LED light and temperature sensor.

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It's the perfect gift for you and your dog. And right now, 30% off and free shipping on your order if you use code NANCY, N-A-N-C-Y, at linkakc.com. For 30% off and free shipping, linkakc.com, code NANCY. Thank you for being our partner today. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.