Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - R. Kelly victim recounts life behind mansion walls

Episode Date: February 12, 2019

Singer R Kelly lost his record deal and is under legal attack for his alleged sexual abuse of young women -- some underage -- but the hip hop star has so far avoided successful criminal prosecution. Nancy Grace talks with Lisa Van Allen, one of the women who testified against Kelly in his Chicago child porn trial, about what she saw and experienced after she was lured as a teen into Kelly's world. Kelly's criminal defense lawyer Steve Greenberg joins the discussion to defend his famous client. Nancy's panel of experts also includes criminal defense lawyer and former prosecutor Nicole DeBorde, Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr Bethany Marshall,  private investigator Vincent Hill, and RadarOnline reporter Alexis Tereszcuk. Part 2 of the discussion continues in Wednesday's Crime Stories episode. Nancy also updates breaking news in the Tara Grinstead murder case with new revelations about the evidence investigators have linking suspect Ryan Duke to the teacher/beauty queen's death. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Do you know another parent or expecting parent? Are you wondering what can I give them as a gift? Nancy Grace here. Don't give them another onesie. Don't give them a plastic toy or God forbid a toy gun that's just going to end up in the garage. Give them something that matters and what matters the most is protecting their child. What do you love most in the world?

Your children. What will you do to protect them? Anything. I sat down with the smartest people I know in the world on matters of child safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators. And what I learned is so important, powerful, and information so critical. I want you to have it. I want them to have it. Go to crimestopshere.com for a five-part series with action information that you can use to change your life and protect your child. Payment starting

$6.99. Give that as a gift, not another onesie. Find out how to protect your child when you're I'd rather have that any day of the week than a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun. Join Justice Nation. Go to crimestopshere.com. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. In our update, breaking news in the Tara Grinstead disappearance and murder. To Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned forensics expert, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott, breaking news out of a courtroom and the Tara Grinstead case. And no, the Dukes have not gone to trial. This was another type of hearing altogether. What happened? What did you learn?

Oh, my God, Nancy. Yeah, it's not a trial. This is a bond hearing. This is just to determine if this fellow is going to be let out of custody so that he can, you know, plan for his own defense and make money. And they talked about this, that he actually has a job waiting for him working in the back of the kitchen in this thing, like you would, you know, kind of surprising to me, and that they would let him loose. Listen, tons of information came out. They allowed in this process for the GBI to get up on the stand. They talked about in intimate detail how he had admitted to burning the body, disposing the body. And what was really amazing is they painted this picture of him going back out several times

to reinitiate the fire to render down Tara Grinstead's body. I was just perplexed by this. Nancy, our friend, private investigator and law and crime anchor, Vincent Hill, was in the courtroom for Ryan Duke's bond hearing. The courtroom was packed. I was in there for the entire four and a half hours. I was actually outside when Ryan Duke was escorted from the van. It was a very nondescript Chrysler van. He was in shackles. He was in handcuffs. He didn't say anything even when asked, was he hopeful of the bond? But when you got in the courtroom, it was a packed courtroom. The entire middle section and the entire left section were

all supporters of Ryan Duke. On the front row of the right section, the far right section, you had Tara's stepmother, her dad, some other relatives directly behind them with the GDI agent who's been working on the case and a few other law enforcement. All in all, the majority of the people in the courtroom were there in support of Ryan Duke. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation has been notorious for keeping details of the Tara Grinstead case secret for years, but there were major revelations in this hearing. The GBI dropped a bombshell. Now, we had heard about this latex glove found outside of Tara Grinstead's home, which had male DNA, which was unknown. But yesterday, the GBI said they obtained a search warrant, obtained Ryan Duke's DNA.

That DNA matched that DNA on the glove. It was also mixed with Tara Grinstead's DNA, and they also recovered a partial palm print that listed to Ryan Duke. That latex glove found in Tara Grinstead's yard has been the subject of major speculation for years. Now we finally know. Investigators did find DNA on it linked to the defendant, Ryan Duke. Duke defense lawyer Ashley Merchant appears to have used this bond hearing as a way to lock in the GBI agent's testimony.

But in the end, her client will not be given bond while he awaits trial in the Tara Grinstead murder. The judge heard a lot of evidence during the bond hearing. It was more like a trial, if you will, than a bond hearing. Of course, the defense was presenting evidence during this bond hearing, but the judge at the end of it, he took less than 30 seconds to say, hey, I'm denying your bond because you could be a flight risk or you can intimidate witnesses. And one of the things that Ashley Merchant tried to bring up was, oh, well, the fact that this drug used that he's suicidal, you know, it hasn't really been proven because the GBI didn't do a drug test while he was being interrogated. He wasn't buying it. He denied the bond. He also denied currently right now

a change of venue that they were seeking as well. Thanks, Vincent Hill. Nancy Grace will follow this case closely as it moves toward a trial. We're also today following the disappearance of a 12-year-old boy from Mobile, Alabama, Ian Lee Clark. Last seen Saturday at his home. Police believe he left in a black 2009 Chevrolet Trailblazer with an Alabama license plate damaged to the back driver's side door. It was his grandmother's car. He may have been driving. They're not sure. CrimeOnline.com reporter Lee Egan just talked to Ian's mom. The mother says he's with someone probably older. She's just not sure who.

He has a couple of friends, and none of them know where he could be. Initially, police thought he was out for a joyride, so they did not register the car tag until Monday. But he's been missing since Saturday, anywhere from 9.30 a.m. to noon, because that's the last time his family saw him. Ian, Lee Clark's mom, fears her son was taken by an adult he met on social media after the boy posted he wanted to find a girlfriend. She said that he said, I'm 12 years old. My name is Ian Mundy. He's got a different name on social media. His last name was spelled L-U-N-D-Y. He said he was 12 years old looking for girls to hang out with, open for anything. And she didn't know about this account until later, so after he already left. So she had no idea

he was even talking on social media at all under a different name. There's no chance he's with his father. The mother does have sole custody, but the father is completely cleared. He's not with his father. He did not have permission to take his grandmother's car. He's not with his grandmother. Ian Lee Clark is a white male with green eyes, brown hair, and he is big for age 12. St stands 5'6", weighs 180 pounds. Last seen, he was wearing a gray hoodie and khaki pants. If you see Ian or know anything about his disappearance, call the Mobile, Alabama Police Department at 251-208-7000 or dial 911. See photos, details, and updates on Nancy Grace's crime and justice website, crimeonline.com.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Initially, I met R. Kelly by going to his trial. I met him when I was 14, and I was, like, on the fence, and I wanted to know, like, did he really do what everyone said he did? Here is a man who is going on trial for having sex with an underage girl, and yet you had women not

supporting the victim, but supporting the guy who was going on trial. I screamed at the top of my lungs. What is wrong with this person? His poor decisions have ruined so many lives. He destroyed my family. You're hearing from the NBC News Dateline, R. Kelly's lifetime surviving R. Kelly. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. My big question is, with all of these women now speaking out, how is this guy still walking free? And yes, you know, I've got a defense attorney with me right now, and I know he is presumed innocent until proven guilty. I get it. I went to law school just like everybody else did that's a lawyer. But this is overwhelming. And with me right now is a very special guest, Lisa Van Allen, that I met. And just her poise and her emotion, her recounting, her time with R. Kelly, the musical superstar, nearly broke my heart. And I'm not quite sure why cops and prosecutors aren't making a move on R. Kelly based on Lisa Van Allen alone. Also with me, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter Alexis Tereschuk, PI, cop-turned-private investigator

and author of Playbook to a Murder, Vincent Hill. Dr. Bethany Marshall. Boy, do I need to shrink on this one. Psycho analyst out of L.A. Nicole DeBoard, former felony prosecutor, now defense attorney. Lisa Van Allen with me. Lisa, at this moment, there is a father and mother out there who claims that R. Kelly, the musical superstar, you know him best probably from I Believe I Can Fly, which shot to the top of the charts. That's his. was 90 pounds and looked like a prisoner after she returned from the singer's tour bus and screamed, quote, like a mad woman at the mention of R. Kelly's name. Now, these, quote,

rumors have been swirling for years, and I recall when R. Kelly was prosecuted, I mean, it took a darn videotape being sent to the prosecutor's office. I guess the word of the victims wasn't enough. So they go forward with a video of R. Kelly not only having sex with a minor, that's called statutory rape, according to the prosecution, but urinating on her and in her mouth. Okay. The jury acquitted him, claiming that they didn't know if the girl was underage. Okay. Lisa Van Allen, thank you again for being with us.

Could you please, as best as you can, tell us how you met R. Kelly and what happened after that? I met him in 1998 at the Home Alone video shoot. I actually went with a friend of mine's girlfriend. She was an extra and I went with her and I was an extra as well. And he actually had his cousin come up to me and told me that he wanted to meet me. I wasn't sure who he was when he told me. He said, Rob wants to meet you. And I was asking him who Rob was. And he said, R. Kelly. So I went over to him. I was surprised because I was only 17 years old. So I didn't expect to meet him. There were tons of grown women there, strippers and other, you know, things like that, that he could have been interested in meeting, but he picked out the youngest girl in the crowd. And I went over and met him and he asked me how old I was. And I told him I was 17. His first question,

well, his second question was, will your mother let you come to Chicago? Lisa, hold on. For those of you just joining me, an alleged victim of the superstar R. Kelly, the creator of I Believe I Can Fly, hold on just a moment. Dr. Bethany Marshall, let me ask Lisa one more question. Lisa, was this before or after he was tried on that video with the 14-year-old girl? Before.

So Dr. Bethany Marshall, the first thing he did, and Lisa Van Allen has been consistent every time she's told her story. First thing he did, he seeks her out. There's all these strippers, grown women everywhere. He comes over to a teen girl and says, how old are you? What does that tell you, Dr. Bethany? It tells me that this is his offending pattern. He wants underage girls, minors, and he wants girls who are pliable over whom he can have control. And, you know, R. Kelly is setting up a sex cult. So what is he going to do? He's going to go towards the youngest, the most vulnerable members of any group, and he's going to recruit them. He's on a recruiting mission. That's what it tells me. Back to Lisa Van Allen. She claims that R. Kelly took advantage of her sexually as a young girl. And I believe her. I believe her standing on her

own because I've met her. We're not just some disembodied voices over the airwaves. I have met Lisa Van Allen. I have looked her in the eye. I have spoken to her on and off camera. I have evaluated her credibility, her demeanor, the degree of detail. I've compared her current statements to many, many previous statements for inconsistencies and corroboration. And I can tell you as a veteran felony prosecutor, if I were a better, I would put money that Lisa Van Allen is telling the truth. And I believe a jury would agree with me. Listen.

When we first started having sex, Rob was behind the camera. And I started popping the tapes in to see what was on them. But I came across the one with me, him, and the 14-year-old. Bootleg copies of the tapes start showing up around the country. This is the one that makes it almost impossible for people to pretend that they did not know that this person had a thing for little girls. Chicago sometimes contacted me to view tapes that possibly had

girls on it that I may have known. That was her, my niece, for sure. And that was him. Police are investigating a video allegedly showing the R&B singer having sex with a 14-year-old girl. The Chicago Police Department is currently seeking to arrest Mr. Kelly. Hey guys, let me pause right there because I want to thank our partner making our program possible today. It's QELL, Q-U-E-L-L. Here's my question. Is chronic daily pain destroying your sleep or your life like it has been for my mom? It kills me to watch my mother have chronic

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No prescription required. It can be used even while you sleep. With almost 200,000 devices sold, Quell's designed for anyone suffering with a wide range of pain condition. If you suffer daily challenging pain, try Quell. Try it risk-free, 60 days. If you're not thrilled, return it for a refund. Go to quellrelief.com. Enter promo code Nancy for 30 bucks off a starter kit. Q-U-E-L-L. Again, QuellRelief.com. Enter promo code Nancy for $30 off. QuellRelief.com. Thank you for being our partner. So Lisa Van Allen, R. Kelly comes up to you amongst all the strippers and the women,

grown women. He picks out a skinny little girl. And then what happens? Says, how old are you? Then what happens? And will your mama let you come to my town? Right. And then, I mean, of course he knows I'm not going to ask my mother at the video shoot. And there's no, we didn't have cell phones, you know, back then, like now. So I, I'm assuming he asked that question just to see if I would agree to come pretty much. You know what I mean? So, yeah. So after that, then. So what did what did you say?

Yeah. I said, yes, my mother would allow me to come. But of course, I didn't ask her. You get what I mean? And that started it. Listen. R. Kelly is arrested on the Chicago charges. The charges they filed against him were not statutory rape charges. They filed child pornography charges. It's the same penalties,

but is easier to prove if you cannot pin it down to a specific date. There was no date on the tape. What about the child porn charges? Not right now, guys. He ultimately had to face the charges in a Chicago courtroom. He pleads not guilty and posts his bail, and he's released. After R. Kelly pleads not guilty, he goes straight to a Southside church. He goes straight to an event where he is admired by young children.

Here he is being prosecuted for allegedly having sexual underage girl. And ministers, civil rights leaders in the city of Chicago wanted to play up the side of him that did the, I believe I can fly, and not the side of him with the raunchy lyrics that kind of went along with possibly having sex with an underage girl. You are hearing from surviving R. Kelly on Lifetime. As we all know, the super musical superstar R. Kelly was arrested on child porn charges for making that grainy video with a 14 year old girl in a sex act and in the video you can clearly see a mole

on the back of R. Kelly's back which is the mole on his back but the girl would refuse to admit that it was her so the state ran up against Rock in a Hard Spot because they couldn't definitively prove it was her. But Lisa Van Allen is with me, who lived with R. Kelly, who I believe is one of his victims. Lisa Van Allen, do you believe the girl was 14 years old in that porn tape? I know she was 14 because we actually had a you know a threesome with her and at the time he told me she was 16 years old. I later found out that she was two years younger than that so because we were we were headed to one of his video shoots. On the way there she she told me that she was going to be getting a PT

cruiser for her 16th birthday. By me doing the math, you know, of how long ago the first encounter was, it was two years prior to that. So if you're just about to turn 16 in a few weeks, then that would have made you 14 when we had the sexual encounter and the tape that was on trial she looked exactly the same had the same hairstyle the same the same just everything everything was exactly the same the same it was even in the same room well i mean lisa you had a threesome with her right but i think you got to know her fairly well and you saw her you saw her more of her than any of us have seen and i'm not judging i don't care who does what with who unless it is non-consensual or there's a minor involved exactly

and i think everyone is so in awe not me but other people of r kelly that he has literally gotten away with felonies for decades i mean lisa his marriage to alia back and i this off the top of my head 1996 she was 15 and he coerced her to lie on the marriage certificate to marry her. And then when it came out that the certificate was a fraud, her parents had a fit, I'm sure, and they got the thing annulled. And she would never speak of R. Kelly is my understanding, Lisa. Well, I know he told me that they had a thing called pins and eyeballs. So no matter if it was pins in her eyeballs or his, they wouldn't speak about it.

So. Oh, I want to go back to you, Lisa Van Allen with me, who was lured into R. Kelly's web. So he comes up to you on this video shoot. He picks you out of all these grown women. You're just a skinny little teen girl. Ask if you can come to his town, which I assume was Chicago. Did you go? Yes, I did. I didn't go immediately. I waited about a month to call him. The main reason was because I didn't know what to talk to him about. I mean, that might sound a little crazy to grown people, but as a young girl, I didn't know what to talk to a grown

man, let alone R. Kelly on the phone. I didn't think he was going to rush me to Chicago. I thought we were going to have a phone conversation. So I waited a while to call him, and then once I did call him, it was no conversation other than him asking, when can you get to Chicago? And then what happened? So I told him whenever he could get me there,

and he put me on the phone with June Brown, which is his assistant to this very day. And June talked me through everything of how to get there. He didn't book it for me, of course, because I was 17 at the time. So they sent me the money and they actually told me to get my own ticket and where to go and what hotel to go to once I got there and everything. Then they brought me to them once I got to Chicago. So they, R. Kelly and his people, told you how to book your own ticket. At 17, I would not have known how to book my own ticket. You did and used the money.

Yeah, I didn't. No, I didn't even have an ID, so I had to go talk me into getting an ID, you know, telling me what all I needed to do to fly. To Nicole DeBoer joining me, former prosecutor, now criminal defense lawyer, Nicole DeBoer, you've prosecuted a lot of felony cases. And I think this is diabolical, and I'll tell you why. Because they knew how to erase all the evidence of their involvement it's not him putting it on his credit card or his recording studio she did it so in years to come they could go oh

she just showed up we didn't even know she was coming yeah you know it is heartbreaking to hear this account of what happened. And I have to agree that what adds to the credibility of this story here are the details, the many, many details about when and how and what was said and what the instructions were. So I tend to agree that this is a case that really ought to hold up if the charges would just be accepted. You know, Alexis Teresh, Chuck Rader, online.com investigative reporter. What a mind. Let me just think of the right word for that. How to mess with your mind because one moment he's having sex with these girls

and the next moment people are cheering for him and he's singing gospel music. Nancy, the thing is, so many people have come forward for so many years with stories about R. Kelly and the authorities never believe them. Reporters, I have spoken with people who said that they knew victims that were living with R. Kelly for years. We've written stories. The authorities have done nothing because he is so famous and so rich and so powerful and just no one believed these girls. This is one of the hardest stories to cover as a reporter when you write things and you write them and no one believes it and nothing happens. The police do nothing. It's so frustrating. Well, another problem, Vincent Hill,

private investigator, author of Playbook to a Murder on Amazon. Vincent, if you listen to what the families are claiming, this one father says that Kelly held Jocelyn Savage, his teenage daughter, that she looked like a prisoner, screamed like a madwoman at the mention of his name during their very upsetting last encounter, that this guy, the dad, Timothy Savage, a broke-down crying, says she is brainwashed, that she weighed about 90 pounds, she hadn't seen her family in two years, she missed the chance to be with her grandfather just before he passed away so she could be with R. Kelly. That they have evidence Kelly locks up women in his homes in Atlanta and Chicago, beats them, and makes them urinate in buckets, refuses to allow them to contact their families,

and it just goes on and on and on. Their daughter, according to them, Jocelyn, disappeared in the middle of the night from a college campus. And the two of them are no slackers. They own two clothing boutiques in Atlanta. They sold them to raise money to get their daughter back. They've used up all their savings, everything they have. They still don't have their daughter.

So if she's going along with it, Vincent Hill, how can it be proven? Yeah, that's the problem, Nancy. I mean, at this point, Ms. Savage is an adult. I mean, the police, the best they can do is a welfare check. But if she says she's okay, the police have to go with that. They can't get into the psychological piece with maybe there's some Stockholm syndrome or something like that, which is unfortunate. You know, she says she's okay. Police have to go with that. And that's, that's the biggest problem here, at least with that case, unfortunately, Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

With me right now, Lisa Van Allen, who fell under superstar R. Kelly's spell, but then it all changed once he lured her to his hometown, away from her mother, to Chicago. Lisa Van Allen, I'm hoping that prosecutors in Chicago and Atlanta hear your voice today. Lisa, what happened when you got to Chicago? Initially, when I got there, you know, being so young, it was a bit exciting to travel to another city and to meet, you know, him and to hang out and hear his music and things like that. But soon after that, you know, that kind of died down because he asked me to do a threesome with him. And the way he got me to do it was he told me he'd never had one before. And with me thinking that I'm his girlfriend, I felt, you know, kind of obligated to do that for

him if he had never had one before. And he's a superstar. You know what I mean? I'm like, girls are always throwing themselves at him and he's never had one before. So I'll just, I'll go ahead and do it, you know, for for him we had the threesome and uh after we had it it just became and just something that he always wanted to do threesomes with different girls so what happened then um I would get very upset I cry um more often than not I cry about it and he would always try to give me like pep talks about how, you know, it was just sex and it didn't hold any emotion to him and how a lot of times he didn't know the girl's names. And, you know, if I could just do it and get it over with, you know, so it would be a lot of

trauma involved for me because, you know, it was something that I didn't want to do. And I felt, you know, that I had to do it for him, especially since I had already done it. You know what I mean? But, you know, once I realized, once we did it more than once, I realized it was a lie, but I was already caught up into it. And I ended up living there with him. You know, he was taking care of me, you know, I didn't have my job anymore at the mall, you know, so it kind of was like, I really didn't have a choice. When he would try to give you, as you refer to it as pep talks, you told me that he would say things like, if you love me, you wouldn't try to change me.

Yes, he would. Yes, he would say that. And he would say that that's what his mother told him. If a woman loves a man, she won't try to change him. So I'm thinking to myself, well, him and his mother would know better than me if I'm, you know, I'm a child. What do I know about what a grown woman should do or what, you know, to please a man, you know? So I go off with what he told me. I'm like, okay, well, I guess he's right.

At this time, you were 17, and how old was he? 31. When you hear these claims by Jocelyn Savage's dad that they have evidence that R. Kelly has beaten women, won't let them call their families, makes them urinate in buckets, what do you make of that, Lisa Van Allen? I believe them. I do. I also believe that he is getting worse over time. You know, things weren't as bad as they are now back then.

He didn't have a harem of women living with him. There were girls who came and went and would be in different rooms in the studio and you did have to get permission to walk through the hallways in the studios. All that stuff is very valid. It's just going to work. Okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, whoa, wait, whoa, wait, whoa, wait. What did you just say about getting permission? Right. You'd have to call down to the runners for the people at the front desk and ask them for permission to go through the hallway, whether it was to leave out the building, whether it was to, if the room you're in didn't have a bathroom, whether it was to use a bathroom or whatever, you'd

have to make sure the hallway was clear first before you could walk through. But that's anyone. That wasn't just the women. I mean, anyone that was in the studio for him pretty much had to do that. And, you know, a lot of celebrities have accounted for that as well. That's why they don't like to work with him. So in your mind, what was the worst thing you had to endure during your time with R. Kelly? I would say him having me sleep with the underage girl would be the worst because that sticks with me.

Joining me, Alexis Tereszczak, Vincent Hill, Dr. Bethany Marshall, and Nicole DeBoard. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, I imagine that this would change you for the rest of your life, to live through what she lived through. Well, absolutely, because getting co-opted into a sex cult has layers of trauma. First of all, she is persuaded and manipulated to go along with him without telling her mother. So this is step one of how cult leaders recruit their members, right? They cut them off from their family and friends. Then they get them to leave their jobs. So they have no financial support, no way of leaving. Then the cult leaders, and this is what R. Kelly did, is that he got a bunch of other people to act in concert with him to control his victims. I mean, this is what

we see in Scientology. This is what we saw in the Jimmy Jones cult. We see in super religious structures is that there is one very strong cult leader who then gets kind of like henchmen all around him to like then have control over it's so interesting because all of these cult leaders are super religious, right? They all think that they have the direct line to God and they use that to control their members. But I think back to your question of trauma, to make somebody engage in sexual acts against their will, I think it's one of the worst forms of trauma that a person could be subjected to. And this happened to our guest on the show many times and in many ways. And so this is something, obviously, that's going to stick with her for a long, long time. To Nicole DeBoer, former prosecutor, current defense attorney. Nicole, I don't understand why charges have not been brought. I have to agree with you. It seems absurd at this point that they haven't taken some kind of action. They have someone who's willing to describe exactly what happened

and give it in such detail that there's sufficient evidence for a case to go to a jury. So to me, it sounds like it should just be a matter of time. Guys, we are talking to an alleged victim of R. Kelly, Lisa Van Allen. Lisa, has anyone ever approached you about filing charges? Not lately. You know, I did testify in the trial in 2008, but not lately. No one has come for it. He was arrested again. He was in Miami and it was on additional porn charges. We seized at that time, camera equipment and 12 digital photos, which we believe to be child pornography. Do you understand that anything you say can and may be used

again? I remember being at my brother and sister-in-law's house, and the detectives showing us stills. It wasn't pretty sight. They showed my niece, Robert, and another young lady intertwined. And I screamed at the top of my lungs, what the f*** is going on? What is going on? What is wrong with this person? You are hearing from Surviving R. Kelly on Lifetime. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With us right now is an alleged victim of the musical superstar R. Kelly.

Joining us now is R. Kelly's defense lawyer, Steve Greenberg. Mr. Greenberg, thank you for being with us. Hi, Nancy. How are you? Well, I'm angry. I'm concerned. A little sick to my stomach. You're always angry. No, actually, I'm not.

I would not be angry if your client, R. Kelly, Robert Kelly, went ahead and turned himself in. Then I'd be happy. For what? Because it's hard for me to believe, Mr. Greenberg, that all of these women are, I assume you've seen the Lifetime special, Surviving R. Kelly,

that they're all lying and your client is the only one telling the truth. Well, fortunately, you're not judging jury, so that happens to be the case. Well, I know that. I'm just asking you, how can that be? more than a decade ago, and the jury didn't believe her then. She's just retelling the same story that no one believed. The young lady who she claimed was in the video said it wasn't her. The young lady's mother said it wasn't her.

The young lady's father said it wasn't her. So, you know, I don't know why everyone wants to believe Sparkle when the people who are supposedly closer to the situation all say she's not correct. Well, okay, you know what? Let's move from Sparkle. Guys, Sparkle is the aunt of the 14-year-old girl in the video, according to the indictment. The jury said they could not determine that she was 14 or who she was. With me today is Lisa Van Allen, who lived with R. Kelly, who says she was picked out of a group of women on a video shoot, strippers, grown women. He comes straight over to a skinny

teen girl and says, how old are you? Will your mama let you come to Chicago? She gets there and he immediately enlists her for sex and a threesome. Now, forget about Sparkle and the incident of the 14-year-old girl in the video who was having sex with R. Kelly and got urinated on. I'm going to try to put that out of my mind, Steve Greenberg. Now, I'm talking about Lisa Van Allen, who's with me right now. In Chicago at that time, the age of consent was 17. Now they have enacted that retroactive, no statute of limitation law so explain to me how your client mr kelly was not doing exactly what lisa

van allen says he was doing well again it's lisa van allen saying it years later there's no evidence that what she said is true there's no witnesses no, no photographs, no nothing. So, you know, I don't know why these people are coming forward now. I know that there are dozens of people who say that Mr. Kelly did nothing wrong. He was always with large entourages, obviously as a performer. Well, why does he have all these young women living at his place? Not only in Chicago, but Atlanta, too. I don't know who was living at his place, Nancy. I was never invited over. Well, you're his defense attorney.

You've never been to his place? I've never been to his place here, where he's got two lovely women living there. One of whose father is this savage guy who's running all over, saying his daughter is a hostage. I know the Chicago police did a well-being check. Did you just say he's got two women living with him? He has two women who live with him, yes. Lucky man. And how old are they?

They're adults. How old are they? They're adults. They're adults. Repeat, how old are they? How old are they? Yes. They're in their 20s.

And how long have they been living with him? I can't give you the exact time, but they were both. Oh, I bet you could. I bet you could. They were both adults, Nancy, when they started living with them, I can tell you that. And the police went over and they talked to them. They said these are two lovely young ladies who are happy. I know who they are, Jocelyn Savage and and osriel clary i'm looking right at them

and they're with a female quote minder traveling they all travel in an entourage with r kelly it's like a harem you know in some countries that's okay not so much here in the u.s well i would think that if there was a problem when the police went over and talked to them alone without whatever you call a harem or a handler or whatever. The police found there was nothing wrong. So why don't we respect that and say there's nothing wrong? Because that's what the investigation concluded. Steve Greenberg, you know what you are? You know what you are? You're a darn good defense lawyer because you're like, have you ever seen those snake charmers in the other countries when they Steve Greenberg, you know what you are? You know what you are? You're a darn good defense lawyer. Because you're like, have you ever seen those snake charmers in the other countries when they sit in front of the, I guess it's a cobra,

and they wind one way and the snake winds that way, and they're playing that instrument, and then the snake goes the other way and they go right along? See, that's what you're doing to me right now, but you're making it seem like it's all okay. That why not have these women living with him? They're adults. You know what? I watched the one woman giving her video statement. She kept looking off to the side. Somebody was telling her what to say. And in her statement that she gave, saying how she's fine and she's there willingly somebody wrote that for her they even misspelled her name you want me to think she couldn't spell her own name in her written statement i mean stop it steve that this is a lisa van allen with me you're hearing our killies defense lawyer steve greenberg and that's how he wins his cases the way he spins it out it sounds so believable but you were there Lisa exactly what happened when he asked you to have a threesome with an

underage girl according to you right yeah when he would ask me to have things you know I'd cry I get upset and he would say I mean in one with the young lady that we're speaking of from trial, when I cried about that one, he got upset and said, what am I going to do with this tape? What can I do with this? How can I watch this? If you want to hear crying, you know, I mean, he really got upset that he couldn't watch that tape later with the 17 year old on it. Hit me. I mean, he calls himself the Pied Piper.per can can his lawyer explain that you know what the pied piper is the pied piper is a man who lures children away from their family do you do you steve greenberg know what the pied piper is uh i do okay what if you know what the pied

piper is what is it i cannot explain people's nicknames and that's not really my concern he doesn't have to explain it the evidence is there how many women have you paid off that were underage do you pay off people when you're not guilty I think 12 do you do that when you're not guilty

is that the right number Steve is that the right number there have been 12 young women with whom he has reached civil settlements where he paid money to make their claim go away in civil court. Nancy, I'm saying that people settle civil cases for all sorts of reasons, including the cost of litigation. Any settlement, which I have never seen, my understanding when people explain them are supposed to be confidential. And therefore, I believe that if I were, I was not involved in those cases, if they exist, I wasn't a lawyer on it. And if I say anything about it, I would be subject to discipline from the courts here. So I'm not going to put myself in that situation.

Since Rob is not, since he believes that Robert didn't do any of these things, why don't they have Rob and all of us young ladies do lie detector tests? Then it'll prove who's telling the truth and who's not. I'm not saying in the court of law, just period, just recording. Well, would he agree to a lie detector steve greenberg i'll ask him when will justice be sought r kelly still living in six properties across the country six properties that reportedly house women in each one it is like a harem but it ain't over yet please join me tomorrow for part two of lisa van, along with R. Kelly's defense attorney, Steven Greenberg, as we search for the truth and pray that justice will unfold. It hasn't yet.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friends.