Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - R. Kelly victim reveals her life behind mansion walls with R. Kelly as his lawyer fights back

Episode Date: February 13, 2019

Singer R Kelly's lawyer Steve Greenberg and one of the hip hop star's accuser, Lisa Van Allen, confront each other on the sex abuse allegations in this episode, part 2 of Nancy Grace's look at the controversy. Nancy's panel of experts also includes former prosecutor Nicole DeBorde, psycho analyst Dr Bethany Marshall, private investigator Vincent Hill, and RadarOnline reporter Alexis Tereszcuk. Grace also looks at the cold case investigation into the burning dead of Denver teen Maggie Long. Her experts include Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, Atlanta criminal lawyer Darryl Cohen, and Crime Stories reporter Robyn Walensky.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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R. Kelly is arrested on the Chicago charges. The charges they filed against him were not statutory rape charges. They filed child pornography charges. It's the same penalties, but is easier to prove if you cannot pin it down to a specific date. There was no date on the tape. What about the child porn charges? Not right now, guys. I got it!

He ultimately had to face the charges in a Chicago courtroom. He pleads not guilty and posts his bail, and he's released. After R. Kelly pleads not guilty, he goes straight to a Southside church. He goes straight to an event where he is admired by young children. Here he is being prosecuted

for allegedly having sex with an underage girl, and ministers, civil rights leaders in the city of Chicago wanted to play up the side of him that did the, I believe I can fly, and not the side of him with the raunchy lyrics that kind of went along with possibly having sex with an underage girl. And it really speaks to the duplicity of R. Kelly.

Kelly posted bail and was allowed to continue to, you know, travel during the legal fight that he was facing. There's no surprise that he continued business as usual. That is from the hit documentary on Lifetime, Surviving R. Kelly. But it's not just a TV movie. This is for real. But why isn't R. Kelly, the musical superstar, behind bars? I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. And yes, I know he is presumed innocent until proven guilty, but this is overwhelming. And with me right now is a very special guest, Lisa Van Allen, and her recounting her time with R. Kelly, the musical superstar, nearly broke my heart. And I'm not quite sure why cops and prosecutors aren't making a move on R. Kelly. Listen. Tracy Sampson tells Dateline she was a 16-year-old intern at Epic Records when she met Kelly and they had a sexual relationship. I was extremely uncomfortable. I wasn't sexually active. It just didn't feel right. Kelly denied having sex with Sampson,

but settled out of court for $250,000. How did you get his DNA? After he had a spit on me, I wiped it off. Oh, you collected the spit? I wiped it off with my t-shirt. Geronda says the shirt also has Kelly's semen on it. This almost sounds like Monica Lewinsky. It's like the blue dress, but it's the white t-shirt. Oh, it was a blue t-shirt. Listen to Lisa Van Allen as she explains how she got involved with R. Kelly. I met him in 1998 at the Home Alone video shoot. I actually went with a friend of mine's girlfriend. She was an extra and I went with her and I was an extra as well. And he actually had his cousin come up to me and told me that he wanted to meet me. I wasn't sure who he was when he told me. He said, Rob wants to meet you. And I was asking him who Rob was. And he

said R. Kelly. So I went over to him. I was surprised because I was only 17 years old. So I didn't expect to meet him. There were tons of grown women there, strippers and other, you know, things like that, that he could have been interested in meeting, but he picked out the youngest girl in the crowd. And I went over and met him and he asked me how old I was. And I told him I was 17. His first question, well, his second question was, will your mother let you come to Chicago? Lisa, was this before or after he was tried on that video with the 14-year-old girl? Before. Listen. When we first started having sex, Rob was behind the camera.

And I started popping the tapes in to see what was on them. But I came across the one with me, him, and the 14-year-old. Bootleg copies of the tapes start showing up around the country. This is the one that makes it almost impossible for people to pretend that they did not know that this person had a thing for little girls. Chicago sometimes contacted me to view

tapes that possibly had girls on it that I may have known. That was her, my niece, for sure. And that was him. Police are investigating a video allegedly showing the R&B singer having sex with a 14-year-old girl. The Chicago Police Department is currently seeking to arrest Mr. Kelly. So Lisa Van Allen, R. Kelly comes up to you. Amongst all the strippers and the women, grown women, he picks out a skinny little girl. And then what happens?

Says, how old are you? Then what happens? And will your mama let you come to my town? Right. And then, I mean, of course, he knows I'm not going to ask my mother at the video shoot. And there's no, we didn't have cell phones, you know, back then like now. So I'm assuming he asked that question just to see if I would agree to come pretty much. You know what I mean?

So, yeah. So after that, then. So what did you say? I said, yeah. I said, yes, my mother would allow me to come. But of course, I didn't ask her. You get what I mean? And that started it.

Listen. R. Kelly is arrested on the Chicago charges. The charges they filed against him were not statutory rape charges. They filed child pornography charges. It's the same penalties, but is easier to prove if you cannot pin it down

to a specific date. There was no date on the tape. What about the child court charges? Not right now, guys. He ultimately had to face the charges in a Chicago courtroom. He pleads not guilty and posts his bail, and he's released. After R. Kelly pleads not guilty, he goes straight to a Southside church.

He goes straight to an event where he is admired by young children. Here he is being prosecuted for allegedly having sexual underage girl. And ministers, civil rights leaders in the city of Chicago wanted to play up the side of him that did the, I believe I can fuck, and not the side of him with the raunchy lyrics that kind of went along with possibly having sex with an underage girl.

You are hearing from surviving R. Kelly on Lifetime. As we all know, the musical superstar R. Kelly was arrested on child porn charges for making that grainy video with a 14-year-old girl in a sex act. And in the video, you can clearly see a mole on the back of R. Kelly's back, which is the mole on his back. But the girl would refuse to admit that it was her so the state ran up against rocking a hard spot because they couldn't definitively prove it was her but Lisa Van Allen is with me who lived with R. Kelly who I believe is one of his victims Lisa Van Allen

do you believe the girl was 14 years old and that porn type? I know she was 14 because we actually had a threesome with her. And at the time, he told me she was 16 years old. I later found out that she was two years younger than that. So because we were headed to one of his video shoots. On the way there, she told me that she was going to be getting a PT cruiser for her 16th birthday. By me doing the math, you know, of how long ago the first encounter was, it was two years prior to that. So if you're just about to turn 16 in a few weeks, then that would have made you 14 when we had the sexual encounter. About a year later, after R. Kelly was arrested on the 21 counts,

he was arrested again. He was in Miami, and it was on additional porn charges. We seized, at that time, camera equipment and 12 digital photos, which we believed to be child pornography. Do you understand that anything you say can and may be used against you? I remember being at my brother and sister-in-law's house, and the detectives showing us stills. It wasn't pretty sight. They showed my niece, Robert, and another young lady intertwined.

And I screamed at the top of my lungs, what the f*** is going on? What is going on? What is wrong with this person? You are hearing from Surviving R. Kelly on Lifetime. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With us right now is an alleged victim of the musical superstar R. Kelly. Joining us now is R. Kelly's defense lawyer, Steve Greenberg. Mr. Greenberg, thank you for being with us.

Hi, Nancy. How are you? Well, I'm angry. I'm concerned. A little sick to my stomach. You're always angry. No, actually, I'm not. Hi, Nancy. How are you? You're always angry. For what? Because it's hard for me to believe, Mr. Greenberg, that all of these women are, I assume you've seen the Lifetime special, Surviving R. Kelly, that they're all lying and your client is the only one telling the truth. Sparkle. Sparkle told her story back when Mr. Kelly was arrested and charged here in Illinois more than a decade ago, and the jury didn't believe her then. She's just retelling the same story that no one believed.

The young lady who she claimed was in the video said it wasn't her. The young lady's mother said it wasn't her. The young lady's father said it wasn't her. So, you know, I don't know why everyone wants to believe Sparkle when the people who are supposedly closeryear-old girl in the video, according to the indictment. The jury said they could not determine that she was 14 or who she was. With me today is Lisa Van Allen, who lived with R. Kelly, who says she was picked out of a group of women on a video shoot, strippers, grown women. He comes straight over to a skinny teen girl and says, how old are you? Will your mama let you come to Chicago? She gets there and he immediately enlists her for sex and a threesome. Now, forget about Sparkle and the incident of the 14-year-old girl in the video who was having sex with R. Kelly and got urinated on.

Now I'm talking about Lisa Van Allen, who's with me right now. You were there, Lisa. Exactly. What happened when he asked you to have a threesome with an underage girl, according to you? Right. When he would ask me to have threesome, you know, I'd cry. I'd get upset. And he would say, I mean, with the young lady that we're speaking of from trial, when I cried about that one, he got upset and said, what am I going to do with this tape? What can I do with this? How can I watch this with you on here crying? You know, I mean, he really got upset that he couldn't watch that tape later with a 14-year-old and a 17-year-old on it.

Hit me. I mean, he calls himself the Pied Piper. Can his lawyer explain that? Do you know what the Pied Piper is? The Pied Piper is a man who lures children away from their family. Do you, Steve Greenberg, know what the Pied Piper is? I do. Okay, what?

If you know what the Pied Piper is, what is it? I cannot explain people's nicknames, and that's not really my concern. He doesn't have to explain it. I mean, the evidence is there. I mean, go to Cook County Courthouse. How many women have you paid off that were underage? Do you pay off people when you're not guilty? I think 12.

Do you do that when you're not guilty? Is that the right number, Steve? Steve, is that the right number steve steve is that the right number there have been 12 young women with whom he has reached civil settlements where he paid money to make their claim go away in civil court uh nancy beyond saying that people settle civil cases for uh all sorts of reasons including the cost of litigation any settlement which i have have never seen, my understanding when people explain them are supposed to be confidential. And therefore, I believe that if I was not involved in those cases, if they exist, I wasn't a lawyer on it. And if I say anything about it, I would be

subject to discipline from the courts here. So I'm not going to put myself in that situation. Since Rob is not, since he believes that Robert didn't do any of these things, why don't they have Rob and all of us young ladies do lie detector tests? Then it'll prove who's telling the truth and who's not. I'm not saying in the court of law, just period. Just record it. Well, would he agree to a lie detector, Steve Greenberg? I'll ask him. Okay.

Everybody hold. With me is Lisa Van Allen, alleged victim of musical superstar R. Kelly, who created I Believe I Can Fly, and Steve Greenberg, R. Kelly's defense attorney, along with Nicole DeBoer, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Vincent Hill, and Alexis Tereschuk.

Now, Alexis, correct me if I'm wrong, but you've got Tiffany Hawkins, who filed a $10 million lawsuit against Robert Kelly. She says their relationship started when she was 15 years old, and Kelly was 24. They settled for a quarter million dollars. Then you've got Epic Records intern Tracy Sampson, indecent sex relationship when she was 17. That was a settlement. Patrice Jones sued for impregnating her when she was 17,

and she says forcing her to get an abortion. They settled out of court. Montina Woods seeking 50 grand over sex encounter in his recording studio out of court unknown settlement then there was the 14 counts of child porn he was found not guilty on that then there was uh detailed allegations from parents claiming their daughter being held in a cult. Okay, then you've got, I'm losing my voice. Your Honda Pace says she met Kelly outside of his trial when she was 15

and he started inviting her over and they started a sex relationship that he would film the encounters. That ended and there was apparently a settlement, Kitty Jones, Lizette Martinez. Well, I mean, I'm going to run out of time naming all these women. So none of those names ring a bell, Steve Greenberg? Oh, they all ring a bell, but, for example, one of them you rattled off settled, you know,

sued because she was supposedly sexually assaulted in his studio and she settled for 50 grand. I mean, 50 grand is a nuisance payment. The cost of someone like Mr. Kelly going to litigation through litigation is extremely expensive. And well, that's the one where the number was mentioned. I'm not a party to those agreements. If they exist, I would know.

I could tell you that if anyone's talking about them and they do exist and they're breaching the agreement, so you've got people who have signed it. You know, Steve, this is not about the women breaching an agreement. This is about the fact that R. Kelly has settled with, we believe, 12 women at least for claims of underage sex or sex harassment. But hold on. I want to go back to something Lisa Van Allen said. Does he call himself the Pied Piper or do other people call him that? He calls himself the Pied Piper. On song, he'll say it's the pie piper okay just to clarify for steve greenberg who was r killa's defense attorney and we're now defense

attorney in his jurisdiction the pie piper of hamlin is a story it came out of germany and it was about a rat catcher that would play music he would play music and a pipe and it would lure rats away. But then when no one would pay him for what he did, he used his instruments, magical power and led the children away. And they never came back. Doesn't that sound familiar? That according to Lisa is what Kelly calls himself. With me is Lisa Van Allen, alleged victim of musical superstar R. Kelly, who created I Believe I Can Fly,

and Steve Greenberg, R. Kelly's defense attorney, along with Nicole DeBoer, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Vincent Hill, and Alexis Tereszczuk. Lisa, if you could speak to R. Kelly right now, what would you say? I would say stop hurting people. Stop hurting people. Why does he feel the need? I mean, they say hurt people hurt people, but that doesn't have to be true. I've been hurt on multiple occasions, and I don't want to hurt people. I've been hurt on multiple occasions, and I don't want to hurt people. I'm here to help people. I would tell him, get help and stop hurting people. Send those girls home. If they're not being held against their will, let them go see their family. Let them go, and then they'll come back if they're not being held against their will.

You know, I always said, I say it was me before me too, because I came out before any of these movements were out, you know, and nobody was listening back in 2008. But now we have a second chance to come back around. He calls himself the Pied Piper of R&B for a reason. He tells us all of these names in his songs for a reason. He came up with age ain't nothing but a number for a reason. My book is called Surviving the Pied Piper. If you want to get more in depth with my story, that's where you can get, you can get that on my website. I'm Lisa Van Allen. Hold on, hold on. Surviving the Pied Piper by Lisa Van Allen. To Vincent Hill, private investigator, weigh in. So I want to go back to something Steve Greenberg said about he doesn't know why his client is called the Pied Piper. Listen, what's that saying?

There's truth in fiction. I mean, there's a reason there's a line in one of R. Kelly's songs that says, I could have sworn you were ready to go all the way. He's talking to his young victims. And also he mentioned, oh, he doesn't know why Lisa waited years to come forward with her story. Well, me being a survivor of sexual assault when I was seven years old, Nancy, I didn't come out and tell anyone about that until a month ago when I was on live TV. So sometimes it does take years because it's not just physical, it's actually psychological. And that's the bigger piece to get over, Nancy, the psychological piece. To Alexis Tereschuk, investigative journalist, RadarOnline.com. Alexis, is there any chance he's going to be prosecuted?

So there's an open case right now in Chicago. It is not exactly about any of the victims. What the authorities are looking into is he has a recording studio in Chicago, and they are saying that he used this recording studio not for recording but as a personal home. The implication being that perhaps women had been attacked in this home. And so the city of Chicago has been releasing photos from inside this recording studio and the only musical thing in the photos that they have released is one keyboard which is in a room next to a massage table all right now wait wait wait wait i've i've been in that studio as recently as

two nights ago and i actually think they're being respectful because there is a full recording studio in that premises with a large soundboard and place you know instruments and all that a soundproof room there there there's definitely only time in my life i was ever in a musical recording studio but there is a large room uh that that looks like you know what i've seen pictures over the years of a recording studio. There's definitely a recording studio. And in fact, he didn't build the recording studio. There was a gospel singer who leased that premises before he did, who actually was the one who built out. Okay. You know what? I appreciate you, Steve Greenberg, having all the details of what's in his studio and no details about all the women living in his home. But I'm not falling for look here, not there. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst,

weigh in. Well, I think we're free. We're out roaming society. We're on your radio show, Nancy, and we can speak our mind. As we're talking, there are frightened women living in that house who feel that they cannot go against R. Kelly. Their food is being controlled. Their clothing is being controlled. They're being forced to have sex with each other. And he is right now alienating them from their families. He initially, I am sure, lured them in by making them feel that they were special.

That was step one. Making them feel that they were special. That was step one, making them feel that they were the only ones that they and they alone could free him from his sexual captivity. He had never had a threesome before, as Lisa's talking about. And then when they protest, he begins to brainwash them that they have a special mission. I'm sure they want to reach out to their families. He is not allowing them to do so. And at this point, they feel that because they have allowed themselves to go along with him, that they are at fault. They are unable to blame him. And thus, the captivity is going to go on and on until the courts really do what they need to do. And Nicole DeBoer, former felony prosecutor, now defense attorney, what can the courts do now?

Oh, the prosecutors can accept a charge and see what a jury will do. And Mr. Greenberg will have an excellent opportunity to relay all of the defense that he's relayed to us today. He has some excellent points, and this is a case that needs some critical thinking, and I expect that at some point, some of these cases will turn into charges. So, Steve Greenberg, I will personally go before the Atlanta-Fulton County Superior Court and ask that you come in pro hoc vice to represent Kelly. I'd love to see you. I'll need a sponsor. Yeah, because I really want to see this go to court. And that would enable you to put all of your defenses in front of a jury of 12, 12 Atlanta citizens who really would be interested in finding out what's going on behind

the closed doors at R. Kelly's mansions, one of the six properties he owns. Lisa Van Allen, did he control what you ate and wore? Well, what I wore, yes, but what I ate, not so much. It was one time where I actually wasn't able to eat, and I did confront him about it, and he actually made it where it was, you know, like petty cash and stuff at the studio for me. So that's why I say I feel like he's getting worse because yes he would control what i wore like if i tried to wear something that fit me cute and i wanted to go maybe to the mall or something then he'd have to see what i had on and if it wasn't something he felt was appropriate he'd have me put on some

of his clothing so yeah he did well what do you mean by something that wasn't appropriate like if a form fitting maybe jeans that fit me cute a nice do you mean by something that wasn't appropriate? Like if it's form-fitting, maybe jeans that fit me cute, a nice shirt, you know, something like that. If it wasn't baggy, put it that way. So then he'll just have me throw on something. Okay, now let me understand. He would want you to wear baggy clothes? Yes.

Uh-huh. If it was anything form-fitting. Why? Why would he want you to wear baggy clothes? I guess because he wouldn't want it to be form-fitting to show my figure. You know, he asked if I wanted to leave out the building, he'd want to see what I had on. And if it was something that fit me cute, he'd ask me to, he'd have me put on like some sweatpants or a pair of his clothing. He wears 2X.

And at that time, I was like a size 2. So he'd have me put on his big sweatpants. So he would have you wear his double X clothing as opposed to your size five. Okay. Another question. What do you make of these ladies claims that he beats them? I believe it because he did. He's actually hit me before. He doesn't, didn't beat me on the regular, but he did. He smacked me before when I spoke to someone that I wasn't, that he felt like I shouldn't have spoke to. He spanked me before until I cried before. And then afterwards he told me he loved me

and he just wants to teach me as if I was a child. You know, at the end of the day, I just want to help abuse victims. Like, you know, that's part. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, whoa, wait, whoa, wait. He spanked you till you cried to teach you what? That's what I was. What was he teaching you?

It's like he's sick. It's like he thinks he's your father or something, you know, because I mean, that's what you go back to. Why did he say that he was, why did he say he was hitting you? Because I didn't listen. I was talking to someone I wasn't supposed to be speaking to. So he was upset about that. Who were you talking to? Who were you talking to?

Not that it matters. Someone in his entourage. I don't really know exactly who it was, but we were all on the tour bus. And I spoke to someone and he got upset about it. And then he pulled me in the bathroom and pulled my pants down and he spanked me. And at first I wasn't crying because, you know,

a spanking is a spanking, but he kept doing it harder and harder until I cried. Classic signs of an abuser, Nancy. Classic. When was it, Lisa, that he hit you when he smacked you? It was pretty much the same situation. We were all chilling or whatever. And see, the thing is, he doesn't want you to speak to any male, period. No one. Don't speak to them.

And it's a really normal reaction if someone says hi to you to speak back. You know, I'm a friendly person. So I spoke back, and he pulled me into the tour bus in the bathroom, and he smacked me for speaking to him. Lisa Van Allen, I hope we meet again. New sheriff and a new push to solve who murdered 17-year-old Maggie Long and why. People are upset about it. IT'S A GREAT IDEA. I'M GOING TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO DO IT. I'M GOING TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO DO IT. THE NEW SHERIFF AND A NEW PUSH TO SOLVE WHO

MURDERED 17-YEAR-OLD MAGGIE LONG AND WHY. PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT IT. IT'S A YOUNG BEAUTIFUL WOMAN AND I AGREE COMPLETELY. IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE

NEED TO GO AFTER. IT SADS ME GREATLY TO TELL YOU THAT MAGGIE WAS PURPOSELY SET ON FIRE AND BURNED ALIVE. SHERIFF TOM MCGRAW SAYS HUNDREDS OF TIPS HAVE POURED IN.

CRUCIAL WITNESSES COMING FORWARD MONTHS AFTER THE CRIME. PEOPLE ARE CURIOUS. WE'RE ALSO GETTING OUR FIRST LOOK INSIDE THE poured in crucial witnesses coming forward months after the crime. People are curious. We're also getting our first look inside the crime scene. Snapshots of the charred home. Also new, more money for information leading to an arrest. The reward has now doubled to $50,000. A 17-year-old little girl, Maggie Long, burned alive. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, an all-star panel, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, CSI expert,

renowned criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor Daryl Cohen. Joining me now from L.A., psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, but to Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Robin, a 17-year-old girl burned alive? Who in the world would do such a horrendous thing? The original reporting from back in 2017, December, when this situation went down, is that the police believed that there were three men in three cars that came to that house, that targeted that house, Nancy, to steal. There was a burglary. But I don't think they counted on this 17-year-old senior, high school senior, Maggie Long, being there. And there was a fire

in the home, and neighbors were calling 911 to report a fire and then when the investigators went there she was set on fire and was found dead oh my stars we are learning this 17 year old girl maggie she's got this big beautiful smile burned alive investigators with Park County have just announced a major reward, $50,000, and a new website they hope will lead straight to her killers. Maggie was purposely set on fire and burned alive. To Cold Case Research Institute Director Cheryl McCollum, man, that must have been a heartbreaking crime scene. Even the photographs are difficult to look at now.

We all know in this business that a lot of times a fire is set to cover up other crimes, whether it's a sexual assault or something that was poured on her. They're trying to get rid of something. It does look like she possibly interrupted a bird learning. That appears to be their motive. It seems like they spent a lot of time in the house. They weren't in a hurry to get out. Kind of reminds me of the all day murder where, you know, these three people or five in that situation decide, hey, we're going to murder these people in such a horrific, horrific manner. But it does look like she fought back. And perhaps one of them was injured as well. What we were learning from Sheriff McGraw, at least one of the men involved in the murder

may have sustained an injury in the fire they set to kill 17-year-old Maggie. We've got a sketch of that guy, and you can see it at CrimeOnline.com with this and all other breaking crime news. We also know that same day, Maggie was to go to a concert at her high school, and she was in charge of the VIP section. She went home to get cookies and water for the audience, telling all of her friends, I'll be right back. She was never seen alive again. Now, the sheriff says one of the suspects, again, may have sustained an injury in

the fire. That sketch on crimeonline.com. We know that the home likely was being burglarized, but since the fire to Robin Walensky, I want to find out what, if any, developments have been made in finding the people that burned this teen girl alive. Hold on, Dr. Bethany Marshall wants in, LA Psychoanalyst. Dr. Bethany, weigh in. The fact that they actually burned a 17-year-old girl tells me that she actually might have known the perpetrators. This is a very small community. She came home on a break to get cookies and water for the drama community, and she came upon a crime. So she was a victim of somebody who was perpetrated against as a part of a commission of another crime. But what if she knew these boys? These were young men.

So the fact is she may have recognized them, and they panicked. They did something to her, and then hastily they tried to destroy the evidence. This little girl's body was found inside of her own burned home. She had just come home to get cookies and waters for a concert to give to VIP guests at the high school concert. To Daryl Cohen, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, Daryl, we know the father kept guns in the home, and apparently that was the target of the burglary.

But who would know those guns were there? It had to be someone who was familiar with her. It had to be people that knew that she had a family that had guns. So this wreaks to me of someone who was going after those guns, and they were stunned and surprised. And I agree that they knew who she was, and worse than that, she knew who they were. So when she was home, they had to do something to make sure that she knew who they were so when she was home they had to do something to make sure that she kept her mouth shut and the worst thing they could have done is what they did they not only killed her but they tortured her by burning and that is just outrageous and

unbelievable to me you know you're right because what we're learning cheryl mccollum is that she was burned alive and i guarantee you this was somebody that knew that family. No question about it. And again, the level of just inhumanity when you're talking about burning somebody alive, it's beyond torturous. So again, the evidence there in the home, hopefully, and this sounds horrible, but with the soot and whatnot, where they touched other things might have preserved the fingerprints perfectly. Hopefully, the gun, one of the guns might show up because there's an AK-47, a 9mm Beretta, and over 200 rounds of ammunition.

So, again, these folks, you know, law enforcement likes to say, well, they probably got rid of those weapons fast. They didn't ditch them. They might have sold them or something to another person, but I think they'll show up at another crime. Who burned 17-year-old Maggie Long alive? alive. Tip line 303-239-4243. Repeat 303-239-4243. There is a $50,000 reward. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.