Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Rainey Street Ripper Strikes Again?

Episode Date: May 4, 2024

In 1960, Lady Bird Lake was built by the city of Austin. The river-like reservoir was created as a cooling pond for Austin's then-new city power plant. The 416-acre lake is now primarily used for recreation, but many in the area are now concerned is it the hunting ground for a killer. There have been  multiple deaths reported since 2022. Two more reported in past days.  Even though police have given no indication there are signs of foul play, social media has lit up with speculation. According to the San Antonio Current, rumors of a serial killer hunting young men and dumping their bodies in Lady Bird Lake ran rampant last April. That's when Police recovered the bodies of Jason John, Clifton Axtell, Jonathon Honey, and Christopher Hays-Clark — all between the ages of 20 and 40 and all recovered from Lady Bird Lake. Reegan Aparicio says she has no doubts that her longtime boyfriend Chris Hays-Clark was placed in Lady Bird Lake. The dental nurse says despite police assurances that there was no foul play in Hays-Clark's death, she believes he was already dead when he went into the water. Despite family concerns, Austin Police Chief Joseph Chacon says, "Nothing has come to light that would indicate that there is a serial killer in Austin." Joining Nancy Grace Today: Reegan Aparicio - Mother to Christopher Clark's (son) Friend, GoFundMe:  Alan Bennett – Former Assistant District Attorney; Partner at Gunter, Bennett, and Anthes Dr. Dana Anderson – Forensic Psychologist, Forensic Expert; Twitter: @psychologydrcom, TikTok: @psychologydr Dennis Franks - Former FBI Supervisory Special Agent, President of Investigative & Security Global Solutions Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School  Brianna Hollis - Crime Reporter, KXAN News; IG: @brihollis_, X: @brihollisNEWS, FB: Brianna Hollis News  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Has the so-called Rainy Street Ripper struck again? Fears renewed that a Texas serial killer stalks the city of Austin as two more bodies are found. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. In the last days, two more bodies found in Austin's Lady Bird Lake. In total, 12 bodies have been found there since 2022. Police still insisting there is no serial killer, but hey, mounting body counts suggest otherwise.

Fresh fears a Texas serial killer is on the loose, and they've been reignited after the discovery of two more bodies in the very same lake. The as of yet unidentified bodies were pulled from Lady Bird Lake within days of each other. This means there has been a whopping 12 bodies in total recovered from that body of water since 2022. Now, while police continue to insist there is no killer on the loose, concerns of a possible so-called Rainy Street Ripper continue as the body count rises. Now, cops insist they have ruled out foul play in some of the cases, but several of the deaths remain unsolved. How did the whole thing start? Listen to Austin police officers speaking out. Our initial information doesn't show anything suspicious, but we don't make that final determination until the medical examiner has been able to conduct their review as well. A lot of bodies have been pulled out of the water office.

Sir, can you understand the public's concern, worries, and the height of alert? Sure, absolutely. One thing to keep in mind is that Austin has thousands of acres of green space and waterways. It's a very nature-focused, large metropolitan area. So we would just encourage people to always be aware of your surroundings, you know, and if you can go with friends, keep yourself safe. Right. So that way we don't have unfortunate incidents that that can occur. What unfortunate incidents? Many people call it murder. Now I've been researching this and there are many bodies that have just been recently pulled out of Lady Bird Lake. But all the way back to 2008 there have been suspicious

deaths, bodies floating up in Lady Bird Lake that have been deemed accident or suicide specifically in 2008 Riyad Ahmad Riyad Ahmad a dad a husband great job second job he is found dead in Lady Bird Lake his hands and feet are bound and he has tape over his mouth and nose. Witnesses saw it when he was pulled out of the water. Multiple witnesses saw that he was bound and duct taped, but it was ruled a suicide. How did he bind his feet and hands, get duct tape on his mouth and nose, and what, hobble into the water and fling himself in? That's statistically impossible. If you look at method and assessment of homicide and suicide, that assessment is very wrong. But let's fast forward to now. Cops in Austin still insisting it's all just a coincidence. Agree or disagree? Another body just found. Take a listen to Rachel Bonilla,

Crime Online. Another body has been found in Lady Bird Lake in Austin. At 1.31 p.m., Austin police respond to a check welfare urgent call after a 911 caller reports seeing a body about 20 feet offshore. Police arrive at 1.33 p.m., minutes after the call is made, and find a body of an unknown person who is pronounced dead. The body is found in the same site where other deceased individuals have been recovered in recent months. Okay, let me understand what's happening. First of all, let's go out to a special guest joining us, Brianna Hollis, crime reporter, KXAN News. Brianna, thank you for being with us. First of all, tell me about Lady Bird Lake. I understand it's a man-made lake to what, hold water for a reservoir? What is it? Correct. For the average person who hasn't been

to Austin, it's referred to as the river. It's, I believe, about 470 acres of surface area, and it flows under the two major highways in town, goes all through downtown, is lined by a lot of green space, is close to bars, right by a popular walking and hiking trail. So let me understand. Lady Bird Lake actually has a ban on swimming in it, doesn't it? For most parts of it, correct. Because so many dead bodies have been fished out there's other reasons for that as well just kind of some i believe general safety and um bacteria in the water kind of issues as well okay i understood that swimming was banned a few years after riyad hamad was found floating with his hands and

feet bound and duct-taped after a few more bodies floated up and officers continued fishing them out swimming was in fact banned at Lady Bird Lake but let's move forward to what we know now. Also near Lady Bird Lake is a popular area that includes food trucks. Food trucks. And it's along Rainy Street. Listen. Rainy Street in downtown Austin is 1.8 miles from Lady Bird Lake. It's a raucous bar and food truck area where many of the victims were seen before their deaths.

It's also an area with a long-standing reputation for crime. One theory is that people are in danger of having their drinks spiked so they can be robbed or worse. Over the last two years, the Austin Police Department has been investigating crimes where men are being potentially drugged while out for the evening. KXAN reports in each case a man meets a woman at one of the downtown establishments and during the course of the evening the victim is drugged and the suspect takes off with their credit cards and cell phone. Investigators say the cell phones and credit cards have been used to commit more than $75,000 in fraudulent purchases and transactions. The suspect uses the credit cards for physical purchases at various businesses and the cell phone for banking apps for fraudulent

purchases and other transactions. This would not be the first time that late night food trucks have been linked to homicide. Brian Koberger specifically is to whom I am referring. Listen. Two of four murdered University of Idaho students caught on video less than two hours before they were stabbed to death. Madison Mogan and Keely Gonsalves ordered a $10 portion of carbonara from the Grub Truckers, a food truck, at 1.43 a.m. During their 10-minute wait, they took photos of each other and chatted with other customers they arrived at the truck with an unidentified young man but didn't leave with him the video was filmed by the food truck operators as part of a live stream joining me an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now but i want to go to dennis franks former fbi

supervisory special agent president of investigative Investigative and Security Global Solutions. Dennis, thank you for being with us. Good morning. Thank you. The food truck and bar and restaurant area along Rainy Street, not far from Lady Bird Lake. And I believe in criminal law, there is no coincidence. And I base that on not only 10 years of prosecuting nothing but felonies, of course, including homicide, serial murders, spree murders. But in all the cases that I've covered, when you keep having dead bodies float up in the same lake, you have to at least consider a serial killer. I would agree. You count the number of bodies that have been found in this area over the last

several years. And this is an area where people don't swim. Motorized boats are not allowed. There are a few drownings every year on Lake Austin and Lake Travis, but these are usually for boating situations and swimming situations. So this number of bodies in one location, to me, is not a coincidence either. And there are probably, I think I've counted, maybe there are 15 bars on Rainey Street, and they're all within walking distance of the lake. Joining me, in addition to Breonna Hollis from KXAN and Dennis Franks, former FBI, another special guest, is Regan Apodicio, mother to one of the Lady Bird Lake victims' son. I am referring to John Christopher Hayes Clark.

He was found dead April 15, 2023. His COD, cause of death, even now, is undetermined. Regan, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me, Nancy. Regan, what do you make of police insisting that all of these deaths are either accident or suicide? I don't believe anything the Austin Police Department says. I haven't since I've known, since I first got the call about Chris, it's been crazy dealing with them. And I haven't had too much clarification on anything of his death. So that makes me not believe them.

When you say it's been crazy dealing with them, what do you mean by that? Little to no contact with them. I have to keep basically begging to talk to the detective. At the time when all this happened, I literally only talked to him two times, met him one time. And the one time I met him is when they were about to close the case. Is the case actually closed? Yes. And what was their decision as to cause of death? They deemed it as undetermined, and they closed the case because they said they had no information on Chris.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two more bodies pulled from Lady Bird Lake in the Austin area. Citizens fear a serial killer is loose walking amongst them. This is the 12th body that we know of that has been pulled from the lake. Are there others in the lake that have not been discovered? The first body found under South First Street Bridge, April 9. Well, that was attributed to a cardiac arrest style event. But if that's true, why are police continuing to probe the death? Just five

short days later, a fisherman calls in the report of another corpse. That death, they say, is not being investigated as a homicide. Cops insist foul play was not the cause of the deaths connected to the reservoir, stating they're most likely accidental. Hmm. Due to the closeness of the reservoir to very popular night spots. But wait a minute, 12 people get drunk and fall in the lake. Really? I've known a lot of drunk people and none of them have fallen into a lake. What more do we know? Regan Appodicio, mother to one of the Lady Bird Lake victims, young son, who is now 12, and he wants to know what happened to dad.

And can I tell you, as each year passes, it's going to nag him and haunt him the rest of his life. If we don't get answers, now is the time to get those answers. Regan, hold on just one moment. Also joining us is renowned medical examiner, chief medical examiner in Texas of Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, lecturer, University of Texas, Austin, and at TCU, Texas Christian University Medical School, Dr. Kendall Crowns. Dr. Crowns, thank you for being with us. To me, when a case is labeled undetermined COD cause of death and the family has no answers, that's not a case that I would consider to be closed. Yeah, you're correct on that, Nancy.

Any case that's left undetermined means that the medical examiner wasn't able to figure out an exact cause of death. And so because of that, they've left it undetermined in case any investigative information comes up on a later date or anything else may come arise that may change the outcome. So when you get an undetermined, especially in a case found in a lake like that, it means that they didn't find anything specific because drowning findings themselves are nonspecific. And so they didn't find anything that they felt was valid enough to cause it, to give a good valid cause of death. But they're saying that about so many of the cases.

Dr. Kendall Crowns, I want to circle back to you on obtaining cause of death when a body has been in the water submerged for a period of time. But I want to go back to Regan Apodicio, mother to victim Christopher Clark's son. Now, I believe as your son turned 13 yet? He'll be 13 next month. Question to you regarding the death of Chris Clark. You guys were together for over 10 years. I understand you last saw him on Easter Sunday. That's correct. And when he walked out after visiting with you and your son, you had no idea you would never see him again. When did you learn that Christopher had been killed? I learned Sunday after they let his mother know. What were you told? His best

friend called me and he was very distraught and let me know that they had found Chris in the lake and I didn't believe it. And I went to his mom's house and she told me that the police had came and let them know that they had identified him in the lake and that, you know, he was deceased and I kind of lost it from there. Do you know, Regan, whether he had drugs or alcohol in his body? Yes, I do know. Did he? Yes. You know, that leads me back, Brianna. Join me, Brianna Hollis, KXAN, to the scheme that apparently some women have of drugging and robbing male victims.

And then they are found in and around Lady Bird Lake. Are you familiar with that scheme, that investigation by Austin PD? In my experience, when it has come to cases similar to what you have brought up in the past two years that I personally have looked into, they have either been not reported to police or have been unsubstantiated or the police department has suspended the cases on the onus of the complainant. Okay. I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that you know of other cases where it's alleged victims were drugged and then robbed, but they were never prosecuted, whether it's because it couldn't be substantiated or the victim didn't want to testify. Is that what you're saying?

I'm saying, or because the alleged victims didn't report it to police at all. And it was just social media chatter or people reaching out to us who are not wanting to do anything. Let me refine my question. Do you know of cases, whether they've been prosecuted or not, where victims claim they were drugged and robbed in the area? Yeah. Okay. Let me go to Dr. Kendall Crowns again, Chief Medical Examiner there in Fort Worth. Dr. Crowns, I find this baffling and confusing that so many bodies have been pulled out of Lady Bird Lake, but police are continuing to say it's all just a coincidence.

Could you explain to me whether, in light of toxicology reports, that it could be determined if these victims had been drugged in any way? So the toxicology reports that it could be determined if these victims had been drugged in any way? So the toxicology reports will tell you what drugs are in the system. And there are certain drugs that are used to try and coerce or to drug an individual like Rohimbine, I think is one of the date rape drugs. But if you're seeing other types of drugs, it may or may not have been used coercily. So it's difficult to say just on toxicology. The problem is, as you pointed out, you have many bodies coming from the same area in a short period of time. So you have to kind of wonder if they're clustering like that, what's going on and what's causing it.

It's more than just a simple, oh, they all happen to go to the same area and die. I do feel that that's something the medical examiner's office and Travis and the police in Austin should be really looking at. Why are all these same people ending up dead in the same area? There's got to be a connection. I'm sorry, can I say something? Sure, jump in. There's a lot of talk that all of these bodies have been found near Rainy Street, and that isn't true. There have only been, I'm looking at our map right now, there have only been two found near Rainy Street where the victim was reported last seen on Rainy Street since 2022. The rest have been in all different parts of Lady Bird Lake, which again, if you're looking at it on a map, it looks more like a river. So I think it's really important to note that all of these bodies aren't showing up near Rainey Street.

That's good to know. Yeah, but does not Lady Bird Lake have a current associated with it? So those bodies could be being dropped at a centralized location and then washing down the rivers. So they don't look like they're on the same area. That has been found upstream from Rainey Street. Upstream, okay. Is that Dr. Kendall Crowns speaking? Yes, sorry.

Okay, Dr. Kendall Crowns, you took the words straight out of my mouth because the current leading into and out of and in Lady Bird Lake is considerable. And your analysis is correct. Well, that's actually one of the reasons why they don't want people swimming in Lady Bird Lake is because the current is very dangerous and people that aren't very good at swimming get caught in that current and drown.

Is a serial killer stalking the Austin area, particularly a popular nightlife area called Rainy Street, not far from downtown Austin. It was the death of Clifton Axtell, 46. He was found March 2023. The cause of death, COD, ruled undetermined. Other bodies, according to police, are not being investigated as homicides. So I'm supposed to believe that these guys, all male, were just drunk and fell in the water? Police say multiple victims were basically drunk or high and fell into the water and just died.

That includes Ricky Parks. His body was found July 2022. He drowned. Christopher Gutierrez, Kyle Thornton, Christopher Hayes Clark. They were also deemed not suspicious. Two of the victims, Jason John and Jonathan Honey, were deemed to have drowned accidentally. Both men last seen on Rainey Street. One man, Hasew Moreno, shot while driving his vehicle plunging into the reservoir. You think that's a heart attack too? Local bartenders state they have a hard time accepting there is not something much more sinister going on. I mean, what's the likelihood that all 12 that we know of got drunk and, quote, fell in the water? Let me go to Alan Bennett, former felony prosecutor, now partner at Gunter, Bennett and Anthus at GBAfirm.com. Alan, I mean, you're a former felony prosecutor like myself. If you're prosecuting

this case or investigating it, do you really care if the victim is pushed into the water or dumped upstream in the lake or downstream? Do you care? It's a series of young men, of men, dead in and around Lady Bird Lake. So I appreciate the distinction and it sounds like a wonderful distinction a veteran defense attorney might make at trial. But I have handled serial murder cases. I have argued them to the Georgia Supreme Court. One of the first ones, you'll like this for its analogy to the current case, Alan Bennett, was a string of young black males that were killed in Atlanta. Everyone within a certain age range, everyone African American, everyone killed with, I believe it was a 36 caliber

in the head, in the middle of a sex act or so police thought. But yet no one would say serial killer. Well, it was a serial killer, uh, who would lure these young guys out of a bar, go out to have sex and kill them. Why? I don't know. Did he hate himself? Did he hate them? I don't know. And I don't care why, but he was a serial killer. And for the longest time, nobody would say serial killer. And I don't know why, but when you have this many bodies, whether they're up straight in the lake or downstream, they all have to be examined very closely. Alan?

Yes, ma'am. I would agree. I think toxicology reports need to be done on all of those folks. And I can't speak to this investigation directly and I can't speak with APD the last 37 years now, both as a prosecutor and defense attorney, one thing I see across the board, and I'm sure you've seen this as well, Nancy, across the board in law enforcement, any detective, investigator, forensic analyst, officer, everyone across the board, good detective work dictates that you work the facts not the theory and I've heard that countless times I suspect APD may take the position that this isn't necessarily a coincidence there is a common thread to all these we have a bunch of young people and a very very well working entertainment district here in Austin a bunch bunch about fall they're very close to a very dangerous bottle of water with a strong current.

They would say that it's coincidental there are a number in such a short period of time. And I'll be the first to admit the number of bodies found in such a short period of time, there's the old adage, where there is smoke, there is fire. That's a lot, a lot of smoke. But, and I think former Special Agent Franks will hopefully agree with me, you have to work the facts and not the theory. The facts and the clues will help you develop the theory. The theory doesn't help you develop facts, and it may very well be, as Ms. Hollis mentioned a moment ago,

APD, they close cases, but they will also administratively close the case, which basically means we're just not doing anything right now. We don't have any leads to follow. We don't have any where this is taking us. They're not going to ignore it. If additional evidence comes up, as Dr. Brown mentioned, absolutely they'll reopen that case if they can find that common thread. And it may as well be that currently APD is not finding the common thread that our intuition tells us must be there, should be there. And it must be something more than simply young folks, a bunch of alcohol, close to a bottle of water. Now I know why you want so many cases, Alan Bennett.

I agree with everything that you just said. But for Austin police to just come out and announce there is no serial killer at this juncture, I think is highly, highly premature and a risk to the public because we really don't know. And you're right. You've got to follow the facts before you develop a theory. GCO, the mother to victim Christopher Clark's 12-year-old son, is that the cases are not closed in the TV sense, in the street vernacular sense of the word. They are closed as in, we've hit a dead end. We're not giving up. We just don't have anywhere to go right now.

And I got to tell you something, Regan, when I became a felony prosecutor, I inherited a courtroom, a very, very busy felony courtroom in inner city Atlanta. And I inherited about 150 pending cases while getting about 100 new cases every week or so. So the case isn't gone. It's not done. It's closed for now until new evidence emerges. And that's why we are talking about this case today. I want to go to Dr. Dana Anderson, forensic psychologist, host of Killer Psychologist podcast. And you can find Dr. Dana at Killer Psychologist. Dr. Dana, thank you for being with us. Why do you believe police don't want to even entertain discussion of a serial killer in Austin?

Well, one reason is you don't want to frighten the public. You want to create that sense of safety. And maybe they do have more information and they don't want the public to know about it. They don't want to create that panic and fear, although too late, that's actually already happening. If you scour the internet, and even this morning I went online and looked at the bars on Rainy Street, the sidebar, and there's hundreds of reviews saying, don't go out to these places, you're going to get drugged. And there's lots of information on the internet about these individuals that have gone missing and a lot of speculation and theories. So

there is panic and people want answers. And it is concerning to hear that cases are being closed too prematurely. Agree. Agree. And again, based on what Alan Bennett was just explaining, the cases may not be closed in the layperson understanding. They're closed as in we don't have any updates right now. We're waiting for more evidence to be uncovered. It would not be the first time by any stretch that a serial killer stalked an area while police steadfastly deny any such apparition as a serial killer. Take a listen to our Cut 16A. This is Dave Mack from Crime Online discussing a recent spate of murders. For the longest time, police refused to acknowledge a serial killer alert to the area.

Listen. With Erica Pena's description of the man, the make and model of the truck, authorities were able to identify Border Patrol agent Juan David Ortiz as their suspect. As authorities mobilized to look for one David Ortiz, they couldn't find him. After Peña's escape from Ortiz, officers only knew of victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Luera. But while they were chasing after him, they heard about a third body that had been found, later identified as 35-year-old Giselda Elisa Hernandez Cantu. Believing Ortiz will return to the home he shares with his wife and children, authorities head to his home hoping to avoid an armed confrontation.

That's right. A Border Patrol agent was in fact a serial killer. And if police had acknowledged that these women were dropping like flies at the hands of a serial killer, that last victim may very well have been saved. And that's certainly not the only one. The same thing happened in Oregon. Listen. Weeks after saying the deaths of several women were not linked to one murderer, investigators and prosecutors say they're working together on the evidence that now links one person, Jesse Lee Calhoun, to at least four of the murdered women. Kristen Smith, reported missing December 22nd, 2022, found dead eight weeks later in

Portland. 22-year-old Ashley Real reported missing in Portland April 2nd, 2023, found dead five weeks later in Clackamas County. Charity Perry, 24, found dead in East Multnomah County. Bridget Leanne Ramsey-Webster, 31, found dead in Polk County April 30th, 2023. Jesse Lee Calhoun has not been charged yet, but he remains a person of interest. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Fears renewed in the Austin area that a serial killer is stalking males in the Rainy Street nightlife area. Why? Twelve people, twelve males end up dead under similar circumstances,

and they're all found in Lady Bird Lake. Let me go back to you, Dr. Kendall Crowns, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County. Let's talk about potential drugging of the victims. What are your thoughts on any way to link some of these victims together? For instance, a date rape drug could be used like I believe was used in the Natalie Holloway case, or victims could be watched or partied. They could be partying with the victim. And when they pull out their own drugs, that's a perfect chance to rob them or kill them. So I'm trying to figure out all the various MOs, modus operandi, method of operation a killer could utilize in this scenario. So where would a medical examiner fit into this puzzle to help link victims potentially?

So what you can do is when you have a string of victims all from the same area or you start looking for similarities, you know, do they have a similar pattern of bruising? Are they similarly tied up? Things of that nature. If you're worried about a drug, someone drugging them and then, you know, dumping them, you'd look for similar, if they have similar toxic findings, because the serial killer, if you will, isn't going to be switching up drugs between victims. They're going to go with what works and then continue to use it. So if the medical examiners notice you have a cluster of bodies from the same area and they all have the same drugs on board, then you have a very obvious issue. You know, I've been looking at a lot of the victims and Breonna Hollis may be able to help me out here. KXAN News. Breonna, again, thank you for

being with us. So many of the victims, and of course, to my knowledge, they're dating back to 2008, but some of them had facial bruising. Some of them had broken bones. I don't really understand how that can fit into an accidental death scenario. But what can you tell me about the most recent victims, Brianna? So obviously we had a case this week where a body was pulled from Lady Bird Lake. This was near City Hall, which is northwest of Rainy Street, upstream. How far from Rainy Street? Probably about a mile and a half or so, two miles. And this was identified as a female. that's all the information we have but that is what we know at the moment of this case otherwise like i said most of my reporting has been on the cases

dating back to july of 2022 i'm looking at our map and our chart here right now, all kind of what you guys have been talking about, accidental drowning, cause of death undetermined. There's two cases I do want to bring up. And before I get into that, I do want to mention that, of course, every death is a tragedy, no matter how it happened. So I go into these details with, you know, the utmost level of respect and sensitivity for the family members of these victims. Just wanted to put that out there. But two of the cases that sparked a lot of alarm last year were the Jason John case and the Jonathan Honey case.

These were two instances, the only two incidents in my reporting since I've gotten here where the victim was actually last seen on Rainey Street. And in the two cases, the toxicology reports found no drugs, but found alcohol. And then in the Jonathan Honey case, they found drugs consistent with over-the-counter, I believe, allergy medicine. Okay, so those two victims on Rainey Street did not have anything such as GHB, gamma-hydroxybutyrate, or another potential sedative. But to you, Dr. Kendall Crowns, in this scenario, if people are getting guys or women to party getting them drunk getting them

to use drugs and killing them i don't know that drugs would be in their system well if they're getting them drunk or in any if they aren't getting them drunk then uh yes they're and or giving them drugs of course there wouldn't be drugs in their system but if they're giving them drugs. Of course, there wouldn't be drugs in their system. But if they're giving them anything, it should show up on the toxicology. But of course, you could lure them away into those areas and then strangle them and push them into the river or whatever you're doing to them. Who knows at this point? And, you know, another issue, and let me go to Dennis Franks

on this, former FBI special agent, now with Investigative and security global solutions. Dennis, so many people assume that theft would be the motive. With a serial killer, that's not necessarily the motive. The joy of killing is very often the motive. I agree. And, you you know i'm not a behavioral science expert but yet you know these um i do not see theft as being uh you know a situation where somebody you know gets robbed and then they kill them and throw them in the lake um i would go on to say that if assuming that the austin police department has a behavioral science unit or experts trained in that, they should be looking at this, looking at any patterns, anything at all, coordinating with the FBI's behavioral science unit, looking at statistics nationwide and looking for any clues at all that might, whether or not they're going to admit that this might be a serial killer. They should be doing this, and I would hope they are.

Alan Bennett joining us, former felony prosecutor joining us out of Austin. admit that this might be a serial killer. They should be doing this, and I would hope they are. Alan Bennett joining us, former felony prosecutor joining us out of Austin. You've handled so many homicide cases, but in serial killer cases, I mean, John Wayne Gacy, he didn't steal from his victims. He molested them, then he killed them, and buried him in his crawl space off his basement. Ted Bundy, he didn't rob. While many serial killers do take a minto like jewelry, or they might take a driver's license or a hair ribbon or underwear, theft is not the motivator. For instance, Ted Bundy, I could go on and on and on. Like Ortiz, the border patrol agent, he hated prostitutes, so he killed them.

The Boston Strangler, for Pete's sake, he didn't rob the victims. He hated them because they were prostitutes. So motivation for serial killers is not by far always theft. I agree, Nancy. In fact, I'm not sure that I'm aware of any serial killer in history who was, in fact, motivated by theft. And again, I think former Special Agent Price could probably give us a better statistic. But my understanding is that at any given time, the FBI believes there are only about 50 serial killers operating within the United States. As our lady mentioned a moment ago, if that is the most prevalent crime,

that's the most reported crime. Serial killers are not. I think you're right. All the serial killers you mentioned, they are a special breed of people and they may collect souvenirs. They may take mementos from the victims, but they're not robbing their victims.

In fact, I'm not even sure if there's any evidence that any of the bodies have been pulled from the lake were in fact victims of robbery or theft. I'm not sure if any of those bodies were pulled, but had their wallet impacted, their money still in their wallet. I'm not sure if there's any association or any connection of theft. Brianna Hollis, what about it? KXAN, have any of these victims been robbed? Not to my knowledge.

The ones I've covered. There you go. Alan Bennett, what you're saying is really interesting to me because I disagree with the FBI, and I certainly don't want to poke the bear. It's like having a tiger by the tail. You can't hold on and you can't let go. But it'll be a cold day in H-E-L-L that there's only 50 serial killers in America right now. No, they may only

know of 50 serial killers in America, but I guarantee you that is woefully, woefully under reported to you joining us, Brianna Hollis, KXAN. I'm curious as to the physical appearance of the victims. What can you tell me about that? Are they similar in appearance? That's something I don't know directly. The only information that we've gotten from police regarding this was just difficulties when it comes to the autopsy and the investigations because of, you know, bodies being in the water with, you know, bloating and decomposition and whatnot. Many of them are light complected with dark hair. That's my observation so far. And as you know, to Dennis Frank's former FBI, now in security, serial killers typically kill within their own race. Also, they have a type, a type of victim to which they gravitate.

I mean, if you look at Ted Bundy's victims, they all look like thin white females with dark hair parted down the middle. There are a few variations, but that's what you find very, very often. What do you make of that, Dennis Franks? Yeah, I think that's true. I think they're usually a pattern of the victims with serial killers. And I've been looking at that in these unfortunate deaths and it does seem to dare the victims do have that picture look you know it doesn't seem for sure you know certainly there's not random you know victims or people have found that different you know different looks and so that's a factor that I think is important in this. Because you're going to look at any pattern you can,

and that's an important pattern. And then you're going to look for other commonalities. And, you know, it's a mystery that, you know, they may not say that it's a serial killer, but they have to be looking at it. I just can't see why they wouldn't. The city of Austin has just announced that more safety measures like lighting and fencing around the lake are going to happen. They're also, quote, considering park rangers around the water and more surveillance cameras. Okay, wait a minute.

Why are you still, quote, considering it? I considered it for about five seconds, and I think you should do it immediately. How many more bodies have to be pulled, fished out of Lady Bird Lake before safety measures are taken? I look for patterns. There is a pattern. Males within a certain age bracket. From a certain location. On certain times of the night.

Are going missing. And ending up dead in Lady Bird Lake. Austin PD. Can you hear me? Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.