Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Real estate millionaire goes to trial after twenty years and 3 dead.

Episode Date: May 20, 2021

Lawyers for the family of Kathleen McCormack Durst say they have new evidence to back claims that real estate heir Robert Durst’s brother and father helped him cover up his wife’s disappearance and death in 1982. Attorney Robert Abrams refused to share his information after the Westchester County District Attorney in New York announced she was reopening the cold case into Kathie Durst’s death. Robert Durst, 78, has long been suspected in his wife’s disappearance and death but has never been charged. He has been charged with the 2000 shooting death of his friend Susan Berman, who was reportedly preparing to reveal information about Kathie Durst’s death, as CrimeOnline previously reported. That trial has restarted after a 14-month delay over COVID concerns. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Randy Kessler - Atlanta Trial Lawyer, Emory Law School Professor, Past Chair ABA Family Law Section, Author: "Divorce, Protect Yourself, Your Kids and Your Future", www.KSFamilyLaw.com, Instagram: @rkessler23, Twitter: @GADivorce Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, www.carynstark.com Dr. Todd M. Barr, M.D. - Deputy Medical Examiner/Forensic Pathologist at Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's Office (Cleveland OH) Jennifer Shen “Jen Shen” - Forensic Scientist, former San Diego Police Dept. Crime Lab Director, jenshenforensics.com Levi Page - Crime Online Investigative Reporter, Host, "Crime and Scandal" True Crime Podcast, YouTube.com/LeviPageTV  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. How does a murder that theoretically occurred decades ago rear its ugly head in a court of law now, today, in yet another seemingly unrelated murder. I'm talking about the murders of two beautiful women. One, Kathy Durst. Her body has never been found. Second, Susan Berman. The only link between these two women?

A multi-millionaire, Robert Durst, who has somehow managed to elxed, this may never have been brought to light. Why? Why? Can somebody tell me why I have to rely on a streaming service to get justice in two murders that we know of? Again, thank you for being with us here at Box Nation Series XM 111. Take a listen to this. Do you waive a reading of that from the council in the State of New York? Yes, Your Honor. I'm going to say I'm not guilty. Not guilty.

Please will be entered. Your Honor, I'm willing to waive my rights. I do want to say here and now, though, I am not guilty. I did not kill Susan Barber. Thank you. And do you, in fact, waive those rights at this time? Yes. Okay, that's interesting. You were hearing Robert Durst in a preliminary hearing in an L.A. courtroom. But now I want you to listen to our cut 12. This is from HBO's The Jinx. Oh, OK. It's HBO, not Netflix.

HBO's The Jinx, the life and deaths of Robert Durst. Now, remember, you just heard him under oath in a court of law. Tell a judge I am not guilty. Now, listen carefully, because in this sound, Durst is whispering. kill them all of course it's funny when you keep your microphone on when you go to the bathroom they hear everything

including Robert Durst's words I kill them all of of course. Now, I've only mentioned so far two women that I believe Robert Durst murdered. Kathy Durst, I think he told his then best friend Susan Berman about it. And then she decides years later to go public with that information. She ends up dead. Oh, I left out another dead person. Mr. Black, Morris Black, lived across the hall from Durst in a flop house in Texas. His body was found, minus a head, in Galveston Bay. Durst admits he did that. So now the tally is up to three. Are there more?

Why has this guy never done hard jail time? Why do I have to rely on HBO to get justice? Well, that's a whole nother can of worms. You were hearing that preliminary hearing in L.A. and HBO's The Jinx. Let me introduce you an all-star panel to try and make sense of all of this. First of all, veteran defense attorney, Atlanta trial lawyer who practices all over the country, Randy Kessler, also Emory Law School professor and author of Divorce, Protect Yourself, Your Kids, and Your Future. Man, if only Kathy Durst had saw you out before she ended up dead, her body disposed. Don't start with me that there's

not a body, so there's not a case. Kessler, just save it. Just five minutes with me. I'm going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know where you're going with me. Oh, now psychologist joining us out of Manhattan. Karen Stark, Karen with a C at Karen Stark dot com.

And boy, do we need a shrink? Dr. Todd Embar, deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologist, joining us out of Cleveland, author of Thin Places, essays from Jordan Kisner. You can find him at Todd Barr M.E. Jennifer Shin joining us, forensic scientist, former director, San Diego PD, crime lab at JenShinForensics.com. But right now, to crimeonline.com investigative reporter, Levi Page. Levi, thank you for being with us. Right now, in a court of law, a murder trial is going forward

in the death of longtime bestie of Robert Durst, Susan Berman. But this really dates way, way back. It dates back to the death or the disappearance of his wife, Kathy Durst. Tell me about that, Levi Page. So, Nancy, this is January 1982, January 31st, 1982. Kathy Durst was at a party in Connecticut with friends, and she got a telephone call. And she was very upset after the telephone call. People at the party said that Robert Durst, her husband, called her and was very angry. So she says, I got to go home. And when she was leaving on her way out, she told her friends, I'm afraid of what Bobby may do. or gushing blood at the house or there's a fire? Who in the hay, what guy calls his wife at a get-together with her girlfriends

and says, you get your framework home right now, and she suddenly puts on her coat and leaves? I mean, somebody better be close to death before a guy pulls the wife out of a party and tells her to march herself home, and she's scared, and she does it. And she said to her friend that she was scared, Nancy. She said that if something happens to me, you know, something to the effect of check out Robert. And that's not unusual for this guy. She was afraid of him. He didn't have any boundaries. He was somebody who would do whatever he wanted. You know why? Because of all that money, Karen

Stark, he was so entitled. And there are a lot of allegations of this whole family closing ranks to cover up not only what Durst did, but to cover up their own cover up. Guys, take a listen to our cut to our friend Keith Morrison at CBS. He has a good heart inside. I really think so. His mom committed suicide when he was seven years old, and it was a devastating experience for Bob. Stewart introduced Bob to a young woman, and this whole twisted tale was set in motion. I was living on East 52nd Street on the second floor, and Kathy was living on the third floor, and Bob owned the building. He used to come and collect the rent.

Kathy was Kathy McCormick, Stuart's young and beautiful upstairs neighbor. He looked like Prince Charming and the princess. Kathy was the love of his life. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So what started off as seemingly a fairy tale quickly took a dark turn. Listen. She became more independent. It wasn't the fairy tale anymore. No.

In fact, Kathy's brother Jim told us it was more like a horror movie. There's a dark side of Bob that, you know, was fairly well camouflaged when they were first going out and getting married. But it escalated ultimately into psychological abuse, economic abuse, and physical abuse. Kathy warned all of us that if anything ever happened, look to Bob. Bob did it. Don't let him get away with it. And then, in 1982, Kathy Durst disappeared. How did he take it?

You know, he asked if we had seen her, if we heard anything, if we knew anything. But they didn't. No one did. I was typically almost detached in his demeanor. You know, almost, I don't know nothing. I don't know anything. So, Levi Page, after that party, was Kathy Durst ever seen alive again by anyone other than Robert Durst? So, Nancy, after the party, Robert Durst claims that she came home to Westchester County, New York, where they had a home and they got into an argument. And he reported her missing five days. Well, wait a minute. Something happened right there.

They had an argument, and what? He says that he took her to the train station, and she went to their apartment in Manhattan. Okay. Now, wasn't Kathy Durst in school at the time, in college? Yes, Albert Einstein School of Medicine in the Bronx. She was studying to become a pediatrician. Yeah, by all accounts, Kathy McCormick Durst was pretty brilliant. So she, according to Durst, goes to the apartment, and he stays out in Westchester.

But nobody ever sees her go into the building, do they? Well, there was a doorman, Rafael Prado, who says that he worked at that building for 37 years. He knew Kathy. He did not see alive January 31st, 1982. However, the doorman, Rafael Prado, says he's not reliable, that he was a drinker and was untrustworthy, and that he later told him, I'm not so sure I saw Kathy that night. I don't think I told police the truth. When cops go into the apartment, was there any evidence that Kathy had ever been there? Not that we know of nancy we know that on february 1st 1982 dr cooperman who worked at the college albert einstein school of medicine in the bronx said that he got a telephone call from

someone claiming to be kathy durst but it didn't really sound like her. And she said, I'm sick. I have diarrhea. I have a headache. I can't make it. And it was her first day for pediatric clerkship in her final year of medical school. And Robert Durst gave an interview to the Jinx producers. And when he was talking to them, he slipped up and said Susan Berman was possibly posing as Kathy Durst because that call was made February 1st. And then he later said, well, she would never do that. So, you know, to you, Randy Kessler, a veteran trial lawyer, there's a reason that you love the Fifth Amendment so much, where defendants have the right to remain silent. And the Constitution protects defendants from overbearing by the state, by investigators, by police. But it does not protect you from gabbing to HBO.

Right. There's a reason you have a hot mic, because that's what happens. People get overconfident. They think, oh, if i just keep it together when i'm in front of the judge or when i'm on camera and they forget and the truth comes out it's interesting how the truth comes out in your opening you said why do you have to rely on on on tv channels and networks to get a conviction or get an accusation going this is exactly why it's a benefit you know this new day this modern age people say things when they think they're not being heard you're right right. No protection there. So he actually slips up Levi Page and blurts out that his best friend, Susan Berman, likely posed as Kathy calling in sick to school.

Yes. And then he took it back. He recanted that. Oh, he took it back. Yeah. Okay. He took it back. Yeah. Okay. He took it back. Okay. Actually, that's not an objection under the rules of evidence. You can't take it back once you already said it. So where does his family stand in all of this? And what are the theories about how he got rid of Kathy Durst's body. What do we think happened to her body, Levi? Her body's never been found, like you said, Nancy. But just to give a little backstory, Joseph Durst is his father. He ran a real estate company called the Durst Organization. It was a

competitor of Donald Trump's organization in real estate in New York. And he left Robert Durst a hundred million dollars in the inheritance after he passed away. So it's been alleged that Robert Durst could have possibly did what he did to Robert Black's neighbor in Texas, which is. Morris Black. Dismember the body. And yes, Morris Black dismembered, he possibly dismembered the body of Kathy Durst as well. Guys, would you cover up for your own family member if you knew they had committed murder?

Take a listen to Robert Abrams, lawyer for Kathy Durst's family. So let me ask you this. After Robert murdered Kathy, along with their father and sister, Douglas and Tom, lawyered up, closed ranks, and helped Robert cover up Kathy's murder. So you may wonder why, all of a sudden, after decades, 40 years, did Douglas decide to share this information with Los Angeles prosecutors? The answer is simple. However, out of respect to

the ongoing investigation of the Western District Attorney, I will not discuss Douglas's motivation at this time other than to say, follow the money. Money, money, money. To Dr. Todd Embar, Deputy Medical Examiner, joining us out of Cleveland. Thank you for being with us, Dr. Todd Embar, deputy medical examiner, joining us out of Cleveland. Thank you for being with us, Dr. Embar. You've seen a lot of dead bodies. You know, is there any way to estimate how many murders happen because of money? You've got money. You've got sex. You've got revenge.

You've got power. But money seems to be the love of money, the root of all evil. I bet you've seen a lot of dead bodies because of money. Oh, absolutely. Inheritance, divorce, affairs, you name it. You know what's interesting? To Jennifer Shen, forensic scientist, former director, San Diego PD crime lab. You can find her at jenshenforensics.com.

Jim, I really do not believe a satisfactory search was done of Robert Durst's home. At the time, Kathy Durst, his young wife, nine years younger than him, goes missing. She goes home from that party. He claims he took her to the bus, to the train station for about an hour ride into the city. She had planned to go to school. And I don't think she ever left that home. As a matter of fact, prosecutors say that they can demonstrate Kathy Durst never left that suburban home, that they also have video evidence of Robert Durst stating, quote, I remember dragging her by her hair, grabbing her arm, saying the hair pulling wasn't even the worst.

So he admits to beating her and abusing her. And now she goes missing. What should have happened at his home? Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, if you don't do a very thorough search of the alleged crime scene at the time, you're going to miss vital evidence that can help you solve the case and present the case at a later time. So, you know, I would just be very surprised if there was a pretty violent end to poor Kathy. So there should have been evidence at the house. And, you know, one of the things you said about the video evidence,

you know, in today's world, it would have been very easy to show that where his car had gone, you know, if he had left, had she gone with him, had she gone towards the train station, traffic cameras, all that stuff. There would have been a lot more evidence in today's world. But yeah, to your point, they actually should have done a very thorough job at the alleged crime scene in order to find the evidence they needed. Never happened. He was never prosecuted and left to walk free. Hence the death of his neighbor, Morris Black in Texas, and the death of his so-called best friend, Susan Berman. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm slowly inching you forward to the trial that's going on right now. Prosecutors allege just days after his wife, Kathy Durst's murder,

Robert Durst enlisted his then best friend to help cover it up, to act as his media spokesperson, person, cover up the killing, and at one point even posing as his wife, Kathy Durst, in a phone call to the medical school to explain why she wasn't there. Remember that name, Susan Berman. Why don't you take a listen to our friend at 48 Hours, Erin Moriarty. This individual was listed as a secret witness. In fact, he came through a back door in the courtroom and he was accompanied by protection guards because he's afraid that

because Durst still has a hundred million dollars that he could be killed if he comes. This is a longtime friend of Robert Durst. He worked and his wife still works for the Durst Realty Company here in New York, real estate company in New York. And he says there'll be a lot of questions raised about this. But he says that Susan Berman, number one, told him that Durst killed his first wife. Kathy said that. And he even says at a dinner, Durst said to him, and in reference to Susan Berman, the victim in this case, that it was either her or me, insinuating that he may have killed, did kill Susan Berman. Again, to you, Randy Kessler, veteran trial lawyer, the Constitution can protect you when the police are involved, but not when you gab incessantly at dinner parties,

when you're mic'd up speaking to HBO. I mean, these statements alone, in my mind, are damning, Randy. I think they are damning. The question is, are they damning beyond a reasonable doubt? And that is the problem. You're absolutely right. No protection, no Fifth Amendment. You can't say, I didn't know this was going to be used against me. It doesn't matter. He said it. It's res gesta. It's whatever exception you want.

It's an admission against interest. There are all sorts of ways that it gets into evidence. The question, of course, still, what he's saying is for effect. He likes the attention. Oh, my goodness. Did you really just say that? I've got to figure out why he said he killed his wife. Okay, I'll leave about to interview this longtime friend, Susan Berman, bam, she ends up dead. Okay, straight out to you, Levi Page, how does Berman die? So Susan Berman was Robert Durst's friend that they met in college, UCLA.

And she was 55 when she was shot in the back of the head Christmas Eve at her home in Benedict Canyon. No robbery. No sex attack. Wow. What could have been? No signs of struggle. No signs of struggle. You're right about that again.

Take a listen. Nancy, she was shot in the back of the head, which means that she could have opened the door to someone she knew and turned around, which would indicate that she trusted this person enough to turn around. That's a very good point, Levi. A very good point. Take a listen to Gary Greenberg, co-author of Sex and the Serial Killer. Well, actually, when they first met, they literally, this guy still literally bumped into Durst in Manhattan and spilled the soda on him. Durst was with Susan Berman at the time, and they got into an altercation, and they nearly got into a pretty serious fight.

And Susan Berman helped break up the fight with another friend of Steele's. And at that point, Susan said to him, Steele, he explained who Robert was. He's a very rich guy and his wife was recently murdered. And Steele and Durst looked at her and glared at her because at that point, Kathy Durst was just a missing person. So right there from that initial blunder, she corrected herself very quickly and said, oh, I mean that she's missing, but we fear that she's dead. But she always apparently feared Durst. And eventually, I think that fear was proven true. Two renowned psychologists joining us out of Manhattan, Karen Stark. Karen Stark, of course, I'm just a JD.

You're the shrink. But isn't that what they call a Freudian slip? Where she says, oh, yes, first wife was murdered. And then he looks at her and she goes, I mean, missing. She's missing, not murdered. He said murdered. I think it's more than a foregrip with Nancy because she's been keeping this to herself for such a long time that there must have been a part of her that wanted to reveal that this happened. But I also wanted to talk about the fact that she was shot in the back of the head. And if you look at Morris Black, he was also shot.

And it makes me, when I think about what he did with Morris Black, the fact that he cut up his body and he was able to get away with it, to me, that's his MO. That's how he kills, he shoots somebody, and he likes to cut up their body. And I think you could really assume that that's exactly what happened to his wife. He does have an M.O. He does have an M.O., Karen Stark. You're absolutely correct.

I'm wondering if the prosecutor will use that at trial. Speaking of the trial, that's what's going down right now. Robert Durst finally going to trial. Speaking of the trial, that's what's going down right now. Robert Durst finally going to trial. How did he escape justice in Westchester? And how has he gone on the lam for so long? Susan Berman was murdered years ago. I understand, Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com, that a letter, a note sent regarding Susan Berman's murder will take center stage. What is the note? After Susan Berman's murder, the Beverly Hills Police Department got a letter that was addressed to them, and it contained Susan Berman's address and it said the word cadaver. Now what's important about this letter, police then went to the home and found the body, but what's important about it

is that Robert Durst had misspelled Beverly Hills in that letter. He spelled it B-E-V-E-R-L-E-Y, putting an extra E in there. And he has done that in the past. They have gotten writing samples of his in the past, and he has misspelled it that exact same way in the past. And he's now admitted, after denying it for 20 years, he's now admitted that he wrote that letter and the note actually says basically go to susan burman's house there's a cadaver there yes and he's he is now claiming that he went to her home and discovered the dead body and panicked and ran away. Why has this guy been walking free

all these years? Does nobody in either Westchester or L.A. have the backbone to prosecute him? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about a case that's been a long time coming. Once again, wealth buys privilege. Robert Durst has killed three people that I know of. Are there others? We may never know that. But why? Why now? Take a listen to Maurice Dubois at CBS. After a long break due to the pandemic, the Robert Durst murder trial has restarted in California. Prosecutors say the now 78-year-old

Durst shot and killed his best friend Susan Berman back in 2000 to prevent her from talking about the 1982 disappearance of Durst's wife, Kathy. She vanished from their northern Westchester home and is presumed dead. Today, a lawyer representing her sibling said there's a wide-ranging cover-up of what happened to Kathy Durst. To make it appear that Kathy returned to New York City and then voluntarily abandoned him,

her family, her friends, her medical school education and everything in this world that she loved. Durst has said he did not kill Berman. The trial is expected to last for at least four months. I want to go to Dr. Todd M. Barr, Deputy Medical Examiner, Pathologist, joining us out of Cleveland and author. Dr. Barr, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the murder of Susan Berman, the gunshot wound, single gunshot wound to the back of the head. Well, thank you, Nancy. This is actually a very disturbing case, in my opinion, whereby I know that Susan Berman was brought up in a mob family and was very paranoid about her safety and went to great lengths to protect herself from intruders.

And she had lots of locks on her doors. So to have somebody walk into her home, she clearly knew who this person was. And as she's walking into her home and she shot point blank in the back of the head, that's an execution style murder. And this is clearly something to silence the person that you don't want them to speak um and it's just it's quite disturbing and then the fact that this note appears uh shows that he had some affection for this person uh if it was in fact Robert Durst who wrote that note um and with the green ink and all, it seems very likely. And it sounds like he may have even confessed to writing that note, wanting to have her body disposed of properly and not sit there rotting in a home because he cared about her.

We understand that she was murdered with a nine, a nine millimeter. How would that be known, doctor? Either from the shell casing or from a bullet recovered from inside of her head. Now, isn't it true, Jennifer Shen, forensic scientist, based on what Dr. Barr has just said, we are assuming that the bullet has been retrieved, that a bullet can be matched to a murder weapon just like a fingerprint. Yes, no? Yes, it can. That's a great point. How? Well, it's kind of the same concept. You take very specific photographs of the markings, very tiny markings on the cartridge case. And then you can put those, if you photograph every single cartridge case the exact same way, then you put it in a database and then you run those photos against the photos of all the other tuning scenes that you have.

And if you have the same kind of markings on two separate cartridges from two different scenes, then you can say that those two came from the same weapon. It's a great way to connect shooting cases. We also know to you, Randy Kessler, that the prosecutor says he will prove Berman was, quote, unafraid of her killer and that she had turned her back to the killer at the time she was murdered how will they prove that by the forensics you know that there's stuff that they can figure out that i there's no way in a million years i could figure out those are you know folks like well i can't hear you there are folks like joe scott morgan that will be able to analyze that, look at it and say the angle of the bullet, the fact, the bullet, you know, why would she be not facing him? What happened three minutes before the shooting?

They may not be able to figure out, but exactly then and there, it's amazing what forensics can do. It is hard, but certainly her back was to him, and they'll be able to prove that at a minimum. You know, I'm wondering if it wasn't the fact, Levi Page, as you had intimated earlier, that where her body was found would suggest she had just closed the door and was, for instance, walking into her kitchen or walking into her den area, and that's where her body was found, as if she had just let someone in. Yes, that's correct, Nancy. Her body was found not that far from the door, and that would indicate that she had let someone in that she knew and that she trusted. And Robert Durst was one of the few people that she was very close with.

And isn't it true it happened on Christmas Eve? Christmas Eve? Christmas Eve 2000. And I would think Karen Stark, psychologist joining us out of Manhattan, that if she went to the door and she sees Robert Durst is there, it's Christmas Eve, you would expect, oh, it's a visit from a friend, and let him in. Well, not just let him in, but feel completely relaxed about letting him in so that she could turn her back to him.

But I also want to say, Nancy, that the fact that he shot her from behind, that she was shot from behind, tells you that whoever that person was, they didn't want to look at her face front. So the neighbor was shot in the face, in the front. But supposedly he had affection for Susan. She was his best friend for many years. So it was a lot easier for him, in this case case to shoot from behind and not look at her. Why has it taken so long to get Durst in the court of law? Take a listen to our friends at CBS LA. Prosecutors say Durst changed his story before trial about a note that led police to Berman's body, which was found in her Benedicta Canyon home.

But they say the motivation has always been to cover up his wife's murder. He didn't kill her because he disliked her. He killed her out of survival. Yesterday, the judge said that Robert Durst was unwilling to appear in court. Today, the defendant was told that this trial will move forward with or without him unless there is a medical condition that prevents him from being transported from county jail. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Is he claiming he's too ill to come to court? Is that really happening? Fine. He can be tried in absentia.

You ever done that, Randy Kessler? I have. I got a conviction too, by the way. Yeah, I've had people, and we've had when my client doesn't show up or the other side doesn't show up. You know, the evidence is there. It doesn't always need to have the person there, but silly not to be there, of well under the law typically at the time the jury is impaneled is when you have to have the defendant there so if a jury was impaneled you know sworn in and then the defendant takes off which is what happened in my case it was a dope lord he was there for the journey and paneling and i guess my wish is of course he was out on bond he never came back so we just went right

ahead and tried him i had a field day i go stand behind his empty chair and talk about it was wonderful uh here durst may be refusing to come to court. He's trying to sick out. That's only going to hurt him. Wouldn't you agree, Randy Kessler? Well, I've been a friend of yours and mine recently got an acquittal for the person who middle of the trial left because they were worried about getting convicted. You never know with a jury, but it absolutely is better for the prosecution to be able to say, you know, wink, wink. If he was really innocent, he'd be here protesting his innocence. He's on the run just like he's been on the run for the law for the last 10 years.

There's a lot you can do without saying it. By simply looking at the chair, like you said, standing behind the chair, putting your hand on the chair. They know what's going on. Innocent people don't run away from justice. You know, if only I could use your words against you when you're trying your next criminal case. But sadly, I can't. The trial is ongoing and we wait for justice finally to unfold. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast. Signing off. Goodbye, friend.