Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Reporter Stabbed Dead After Vegas Politician's Alleged Sex Affair Exposed

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

Jeff German, a Las Vegas Review-Journal Investigative Reporter, is found dead outside his home. Days later, cops release surveillance video of a possible suspect in a wide-brimmed straw hat, an orange safety shirt, and black pants walking near the scene. More investigation revealed that German's reporting put him at odds with elected Public Administrator, Robert Telles. Earlier this year, German reported that Telles created a toxic work environment and was having an extra-marital affair with an employee. These claims seem to have cost Telles his re-election bid. Investigators searched Robert Telles' home, towing a red SUV, and finding shoes with apparent blood on them. A straw hat matching the one shown in the video was also found. Both articles had been cut up in an effort to destroy evidence, but DNA under German's fingernails told police everything they needed to know. Telles has been arrested for German's murder, and held without bail. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Matthew Mangino - Attorney, Former District Attorney (Lawrence County), Former Parole Board Member, Author: "The Executioner's Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States", MattMangino.com, Twitter: @MatthewTMangino Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, CarynStark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"   Lisa M. Dadio - Former Police Lieutenant, New Haven Police Department, Annie Le Lead Detective, Senior Lecturer, Director of the Center for Advanced Policing and Graduate Program Coordinator, Investigations program, University of New Haven (West Haven, CT) Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Forensic Consultant, DMichelleDupreMD.com  Vanessa Murphy - Investigative Reporter, KLAS-TV 8newsnow.com, Instagram: @vanessareporting, Twitter: @Vanessa_Murphy, Facebook: "VanessaMurphyInvestigates" Dr. Kristen Mittelman - Chief Development Officer, Othram Inc., DNAsolves.com, Twitter: @OthramTech  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Vegas, Sin City. It conjures up all sorts of images of casinos, bright, dazzling floor shows, luxurious penthouse suites. But right now, in my mind, it's conjuring up the image of our murder. Take a listen to this. Jeff Gehrman was found stabbed to death outside his home in the Northwest Valley Saturday morning. Police say they believe a fight led to Gehrman's death.

They say it appears the person seen in these photos was casing the area to commit other crimes before the stabbing happened. Police say the stabbing happened near Vegas Drive in Rock Springs. Metro police are asking people in that area to review their cameras to see if they captured some more video of the suspect. In a statement, the Review Journal tells Fox 5 he will be terribly missed by his family and colleagues, and we are all still in shock over his senseless killing. They say that he never communicated any concerns about his personal safety. He was known for his stories about political scandals and coverage of the one October mass shooting. He was also the author of a 2001 true crime book, Murder in Sin City, The Death of a Las Vegas Casino Boss. We're talking, of course, about a very well-respected journalist and reporter, Jeff Gehrman. Why was Jeff Gehrman stabbed dead outside?

What happened? And what does the video reveal? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Joining me, an all-star panel of experts-TV, 8newsnow.com. And you can find her on Facebook at Vanessa Murphy Investigates. Vanessa, thank you for being with us.

Tell me about the area where Geerman was stabbed. The area where he was stabbed, this is the Northwest Valley in the Las Vegas area. Again, this was outside his home, a quiet neighborhood. We do know there were burglaries in the area. But again, for the most part, a quiet neighborhood, the Northwest Valley. And it's just those quiet, beautiful neighborhoods where burglars think they're going to make a big heist. Just imagining there, the neighborhood you're telling me about in the northwest valley. Because Vanessa Murphy, I've been to Vegas many, many, many times. And I'm not even a gambler.

I have no interest in giving the casino my hard-earned money I'm going to use, hopefully, to send my children to grad school. But there was a time, Vanessa, with me, Vanessa Murphy, investigative reporter, KLAS-TV. I've been all over Vegas for various reasons. Well, this time was to go to the Liberace Museum. You remember that? The Liberace Museum. It's incredible. It's incredible.

All those capes and pianos and jewels, just insane. Anyway, I did not have directions, Google map or no way to, I was looking at a hand map, the map you buy at the gas station. And of course, got lost. And I was driving all over Vegas, Vanessa Murphy and past the strip, past anything close to the strip. And I somehow ended up in these gorgeous neighborhoods. Of course, it's in the middle of a desert, and so the yards are not lawns like big green rolling lawns. They're carefully curated and created like Japanese-looking gardens. And the time and effort to make these homes beautiful is incredible. So I ended up in a neighborhood where Gehrman was murdered. And like you said, they're beautiful homes where you would never think crime would intrude.

Also, I don't know if you recall the murder of Ted Binion. His family began the, I think it was the Golden Nugget, one of the first major hotels on the strip. He was murdered. And I also investigated hotels on the strip. He was murdered. And I also investigated that at the time. So Vegas has this lore of crime, Sin City. But this victim, Jeff Geerman, he was basically scrubbed in sunshine. He had never done a wrong thing in his life and had dedicated his life to journalism. What do we know about him?

Why him? Why was, tell me about him. So Jeff Gehrman, longtime Las Vegas reporter, was originally at another newspaper here, then went to the Review Journal for at least the past decade. Well respected. I know his colleagues. They had nothing bad to say about him. Just a tenacious reporter.

And, you know, as an investigative journalist, oftentimes we are uncovering truths that people do not want to be uncovered. And he was doing that on a regular basis. But that's part of the job. And I think it's interesting that his colleagues say that he never felt like he was in immediate danger at the time. Of course, motive. Why this journalist? Very well respected. Why him? Does the burglar care? Whether he's burgling a millionaire or a nun, a priest, a virgin, or a well respected journalist? They don't care. The state doesn't have to prove motive. But listen to our friends at Fox 5. The search is on for a suspect in the stabbing death of an investigative journalist. Police say the man in this picture stabbed and killed newspaper

reporter Jeff Gehrman in front of his home in Summerlin in the neighborhood near Tanea and Vegas Drive on Saturday morning. They believe that suspect may have been staking out Gehrman's home for burglary before the altercation. In a statement, the Review Journal tells Fox 5 he will be terribly missed by his family and colleagues, and we are all still in shock over his senseless killing. They say that he never communicated any concerns about his personal safety. He was known for his stories about political scandals and coverage of the one October mass shooting. He was also the author of a 2001 true crime book, Murder in Sin City, The Death of a Las Vegas Casino Boss. Straight out to Lisa Daddio joining us,

former police lieutenant with the New Haven PD and now the director of the Center for Advanced Policing at University New Haven. Lisa, thank you for being with us. Okay, can we just talk about burglars for just one moment? You know, I believe, Lisa, that there are certain defendants, criminals that cannot be rehabilitated. Child molesters, sex offenders in general, peeping toms, believe it or not, and burglars. Burglars, because the way a rapist rapes, not for sex, it's for power and control, out of anger, hatred. A burglar very often likes the thrill of going in somebody else's home.

It's not always to steal the TV or the electronics or the engagement ring. It's being in somebody else's home and walking around, eating food out of their fridge, bouncing on the bed, looking at all their stuff. It's freaky. One thing about burglars, they usually, if they see somebody's home, will leave, much less continue the burglary with the person standing out in front of the yard, in the front yard. Absolutely, Nancy. And that's statistically, I'm going to say probably 90 plus percent accurate. Everything that you had stated, they don't want to be caught by the homeowner. You know,

there are those few they're called cat burglars that get the thrill from breaking in at night when people are home. And that's a whole different psychological, but the majority of burglars don't want to confront anyone in the home and they want to go in and get their thrill. And if they take things they do, and if they don't, like you stated, they don't. But they're not going to intentionally burglarize somebody's home and confront them in the middle of the day. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

A string of burglaries across Vegas played into the working theory in the murder of a well-respected investigative reporter, Jeff Gehrman. Take a listen to our friend Sean Delancey, KTNV. Days after respected investigative reporter Jeff Gehrman was stabbed to death outside of his own home, police are still searching for the person responsible. Police say the suspect was likely casing the area to commit crimes before confronting Gehrman. Everyone in our unit's been working nonstop. Captain Dory Corrin released this video, asking people to pay close attention to the way the suspected killer walks and the clothing.

In addition, police released this vehicle related to the crime, a maroon GMC Yukon Denali with chrome handles. Straight back out to investigative reporter joining us from Vegas, Vanessa Murphy. What was unusual, if anything, about the dress of the killer? So this individual was wearing a straw hat. He was also wearing bright orange. So typically we don't see burglars wear bright orange, right? And a big straw hat drawing attention to themselves. So those were two things that really stood out.

Vanessa, where did we get the video of this guy in a straw hat and an orange vest? Well, police went door to door right after they made this discovery of Mr. Gehrman's body. They went door to door and, you know, many people have ring ring doorbells. They have nest cameras with that surveillance video. So what they did was they pieced together any footage they had from that neighborhood. You know, another case where that happened, and I'm going to go to you again, Lisa Daddio, former police lieutenant, is in the missing mother of five, Jennifer Dulos. And I am amazed at what the police did in that case regarding video. They got the husband, such as he is, Fotis Dulos, all that day. And they have pieced together video of him at red light cams, at cams of businesses, ring doorbell cams,

neighborhood cams, surveillance video cams of businesses. They even have him going by in his car when a public bus opened its door and there's a cam in the bus and it sees Fotis Dulos dashing by in his car, culminating in Fotis Dulos, the killer, at an auto detailing place, having the vehicle he used to transport her dead body detailed and cleaned. I mean, it goes from A to Z. It's incredible. And explain to me, Lisa Daddio, I'm sure you've seen this photo. It's unlike anything I've ever seen. You know, when you see, for instance, To Catch a Thief, or you see some James Bond video, James Bond movie. The burglar's always dressed in black and they've got their face darkened and they're wearing a black hat and you know like a skull cap. It's not always like that

but it sure ain't like this. I mean this guy has got on a bright yellow shirt with reflectors on it, on the sleeves. He's got on a bright orange vest over that, like a person that would be conducting traffic out in the middle of the street. You want to make sure you're seen with reflectors on it. He's wearing, I can only describe it as a beach hat, a straw beach hat that comes down like a top hat, a top hat, like the man of the Monopoly game that sticks way up and then fans down like a bowl wearing a black satchel and white running shoes. I mean, it's quite the get up, Lisa Daddio. I mean, if I quite the get up, Lisa Daddio. I mean, if I was going to burgle something, I'd put on my dark ninja clothes and

completely cover my face and my head. What is this? You're trying to fit into the neighborhood, right? So that nobody who's out and about is going to even think anything twice. You think this fits in the neighborhood? Yeah. Why? It's like, my God, it was bizarre twice you think this fits in the neighborhood yeah it's

like my god it was bizarre you think this outfit fits into the journalist upscale neighborhood like people are going to say him and go oh yeah he lives around the corner yeah no if anything it's drawing attention to himself well nancy well let me guess you're going to say he's dressed up like a day laborer yeah we have a lot of construction going on and there was a series of uh we have a lot of construction going on and there was a burglar who actually was dressed uh similarly in a hat like that caught on video at a restaurant so there's two possibilities there you go okay okay vanessa okay but if I were sneaking around trying to burgle a home, it would not be wearing this getup. I'm just putting that out there, and I know defense attorney Matthew Mangino joining me, former prosecutor in Lawrence County, former parole board member, author of the Executioner's

Toll at MatthewMangino.com. It goes on and on. Mangino, I know you'll say, oh, this means nothing. Uh-uh. It means a lot to me, and I guarantee you it will mean a lot to a jury. Well, yes, Nancy, the thing that I would think is that prosecutors wouldn't want to put blinders on

or investigators wouldn't want to put blinders on. investigators wouldn't want to put blinders on. I think they would want to keep an open mind about this investigation. Certainly, you know, the first idea is that is this a burglary that's gone awry and someone ends up dead. But when I look at that photograph, I think of someone who wants to disguise themselves, someone who might be recognizable, who's trying to disguise themselves in that area. And so then as you keep an open mind as an investigator, I think you have to look at all different things. You have to look at your victim. Who would want to to hurt this person is there someone out there who would want to harm them or maybe multiple people who want to harm them does he have enemies does

he have people uh who who don't like him you know what though uh matthew mangino that is you know kind of cliche i mean if you watch anything from, I guess, Special Victims Unit all the way back to Columbo, they always say, who would want to kill your husband? And the wife always says, nobody. I mean, that's a little cliche, especially when police have announced they believe a burglary was going down. All I'm saying, Karen Stark, Karen Stark, New York psychologist, joining us out of Manhattan at KarenStark.com. Karen with a C. Karen, if I were going to burgle a place,

it would not be wearing a giant straw hat and a day-glow orange vest. Well, to me, it says quite clearly, Nancy, that this is somebody who doesn't know what they're doing, who is an amateur and hasn't really thought this out at all. Because it's apparent that everything that you're wearing is calling attention to yourself. And I'm trying to put my mind inside the mind of this person and saying, what could he have been thinking? And maybe he thought that he had to be so outrageous that nobody would really. I know he might as well have worn a prom dress and a tiara. But back to you, Vanessa Murphy, joining us, KLAS-TV.

We also know that police have been tracking a series of burglaries in the valley where the suspect did wear similar clothing as outlandish as I think it looks. Question to you, Vanessa, had that been broadcast on TV that the suspect in that series of burglaries had been dressed like this? There was video of a restaurant being burglarized and the suspect was wearing that straw hat. We did play that video on the news. So that was out there. And in fact, you could see on the social media comments when the police released this image, you know, viewers were putting the two and two together. Hey, that looks like the guy who was burglarizing the restaurant. Let's take a listen again to Captain Dory Corrin. Corrin says that they are tracking

a series of burglaries in the valley where a suspect wears similar clothing and considering all possibilities for a link to Gehrman's killing, it's too early to form a definitive link. We're not at the point where we're going to connect it to anything else at this point, but we are evaluating every avenue possible. So as Vanessa Murphy, KLAS says, in the residents in Vegas mind, the murder of the investigative journalist,

Jeff Gehrman, was clearly linked to the series of burglaries. While that connection is being made, an autopsy is being performed on Gehrman's body. Joining me right now, renowned pathologist, medical examiner, detective, and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Dr. Michelle Dupree. Dr. Dupree, thank you for being with us. Could you describe what happened to Gehrman? What death did he suffer? Did he have time to see his killer? Nancy, he most likely did have time to see his killer. He was stabbed, as I understand it, seven different times. And stabbing is a very personal crime. You have to get hands on. It's not like standing across the room and

shooting a gun. This is up close and very personal. So, yes, I think he did see his hour. And what would he have endured? Seven stab wounds, at least one of them deadly. He obviously would have been fighting for his life. He would have been probably fighting back some way, perhaps hitting that person, scratching that person, just fighting for his life. Imagine dying out in front of your house on what seemed to be an ordinary day for you that suddenly turned anything but. Well, no connections are being made to a string of burglaries. Take a listen to our friends at Fox 5. It is troublesome

because it is a journalist and we expect journalism to be open and transparent and a watchdog for government. And when people take it upon themselves to create harm associated with that profession, I think it's very important that we put all eyes on and address the case appropriately. Gehrman has published several investigative reports, allegations of bullying and favoritism. You know, I'm curious, Karen Stark, it's hard to imagine someone willing to commit a murder over a bad newspaper article. Well, when you think about somebody who's capable of murder, Nancy,

they're not illogical they are very they're hypersensitive their ego if they're all about their ego and here's somebody who's not it's not just a newspaper article it has to do with their reputation and how the public perceives them. And that kind of a person, they're not going to hesitate to think about the worst thing they could possibly do to get revenge because they're all about revenge. You know, Matthew Mangino, joining me, high profile lawyer and author. Matthew, very often I've heard defense attorneys argue, what? He's going to kill his wife? He could have just gotten a divorce. Killers don't think that way. They don't think

rationally. So while we're digging around for a motive in Gehrman's murder, a very brutal murder, the state doesn't have to prove motive. I've seen murders over a $5 debt before. So that doesn't make sense to anybody else. But it made sense to the killer. Right. Yeah. There is no obligation on the state's part to prove a motive in a murder. Although jurors like to hear that there's a motive. They feel more comfortable making a decision when they know that there was some motive, there was some reason for this person to act the way that they did. But, you know, here, you know, all options have to be open in terms of, you know, how

Gehrman died and why Gehrman died. You're right. And you're also right about juries. Matthew Mangino, Matthew Mangino, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, author, former parole board member. The state doesn't have to prove a motive legally. But when you say a jury wants to hear a motive, they do. They want a neat explanation or else they will go back in the jury room and argue till they're blue in the face about why would he have committed this murder? Because they, the jurors, wouldn't do it because they're reasonable thinking people unlike a killer and it's hard to apply logic to an illogical situation like a murder. So you better give them a motive, Matthew Mangino.

You're right. So now the police are departing from their initial belief that this was a part of a series of burglaries. As Vanessa pointed out, there was a restaurant burglary. And according to the police chief, there was a series of burglaries where the burglar wore much of the same getup, this outlandish outfit, and it was put online and on TV. Hence, this killer dresses the same way. The investigation knuckles down as the mystery intensifies. Take a listen to our friend Mark Strassman. TELUS had been the subject of a newspaper investigation spearheaded by Gehrman in May,

describing allegations of emotional stress, bullying, and favoritism in the public administrator's office. That story included further allegations that TELUS had an inappropriate relationship with one of his staffers, purportedly seen in this video. He disputed the claims in an interview with Gehrman, accusing others of trying to sabotage his office. I am about nothing but justice, fairness, and just being a good person. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. You're hearing this guy who's under journalistic investigation for bullying. Let's see what else. Favoritism, emotional stress. You can't have favoritism in a public office.

This is the public administrator's office. And then the investigator, who is now dead, pulls up a video of what looks to be a sex affair. Okay, what about it, Vanessa Murphy? What is the video that Gehrman pulled up? In this video, we see a car parked in, I believe, a mall parking garage. And it appears that the Clark County Public Administrator, Robert Tellis, is in the back seat with one of his employees. They are back there. We see some movement. He gets out of the right side. She gets out of the left left sort of pulled her skirt down a little bit i'm looking at it right now wait a minute yeah i see them moving around the it's almost like there's a wrestling

match going on in the car between two people oh wow and it's a maroon suv ouch oh and i can see the license tag too i'm still looking i still looking. I'm waiting for something to happen. Tell us, and this says Lee Connett have denied allegations they had an inappropriate relationship. This video was shot recently and was obtained by the Review Journal. Isn't that where Gehrman works, the Review Journal? Yes, that is where Gehrond works. I know that the vehicle looks similar, but I don't think it was that maroon SUV. I'm glad you told me that. Okay, I'm waiting. I'm seeing more movement. I can't tell front seat or back seat. Did you say back seat? I believe they're in the back seat. Oh, the back seat. And you're right. Oh, there comes TELUS. You can't mistake that.

No, that is TELUS. I would recognize that head anywhere. Oh, oh, oh, okay. Yeah, you're right. It's the back seat because she's coming out of the back seat there. Oh, there she is. Oh, yep. She hitched her dress down and now she's getting into the front seat.

And what's going to happen now I'm waiting waiting waiting she's in the front seat he's out of view who took this video Vanessa Murphy I believe it was employees of Clark County uh-oh well good on them now the lights are on she slammed the door shut, and she's leaving. Well, they're denying an inappropriate relationship. I'd like to know what they were doing, wrestling in the backseat of this SUV in a parking garage. That said, I'm a little more concerned about the murder. What can you tell me about claims of bullying bullying now that we've got off the sort of

not having sex in the backseat incident? What can you tell me about claims of bullying and favoritism in the public administrator's office? Well, Robert Tellis sort of started on this is an office with a history of problems and he would come in and help clean it up. And what employees told the Review Journal is that did not happen. And it seems that issues continued and he was, he's their boss and sort of bullied employees and made things even worse. You know, anybody jump in as I've already admonished you, we're not having high tea at Highgrove with King Charles. Those words are hard for me to say, not the Queen, but Nancy, let me, is that Karen Stark?

Jump in Karen, because you know, bullying in a public office, not having sex in the backseat of the SUV. Oh, I know what I wanted to ask you. Have you ever heard people go, I'm not stupid? Translation, I'm really stupid. Did you hear him earlier saying, I'm all about justice and fairness? Translation, you got me. I did it. Yeah, that's that. That he's overreacting.

And I can't tell you the kind of response somebody who has his personality, who's capable of murder, how he would respond to being publicly humiliated and shamed like that. It's unacceptable. Here's another thing. Is he married, Vanessa Murphy? He is married with three children. You know, I'd like to say I'm surprised, but... Guys, take a listen to Mark Strassman, CBS News. Back in June, as Tellus appeared poised to lose his re-election bid, he appeared to go after Gehrman on social media, preemptively calling a potential follow-up story a lying smear piece and joking

that Gehrman was going through our trash to report it. Police interviewed him Wednesday afternoon. And he did not respond to reporters' questions. Now, you were hearing that report when Tellus was on the verge of losing the election. Now, take a listen to our friends at CBS. One of Gehrman's most recent investigative stories in the Las Vegas Review-Journal was about an alleged toxic work he was having with the co-worker, where the paper obtained video of Tellis in the back of a car with a woman. In the midst of the series, Tellis, a Democrat, lost his bid for re-election. Just after Gehrman's death, police released pictures of a possible suspect, dressed in an orange vest, straw hat, and gloves. Investigators later asked the public to help find this red Yukon

Denali, possibly tied to the killing, similar to the one seen here being cleaned by Tellus. But what about evidence? They could have a huge grudge fest on TV and social media. He may have lost the election, but that is not enough to prove a murder. That does not a murder make. But wait a minute. Take a listen to our friends in our cut 15. This is Chip Yost at KTLA. The evidence that Clark County's elected public administrator, Robert Tellis, is the person who dressed up in this disguise to murder investigative reporter Jeff Gehrman of the Las Vegas Review-Journal is growing. Gehrman was found stabbed to death outside his home last week. But in court, the prosecutor suggested Gehrman didn't go down without a fight as DNA was found under the dead man's fingernails. The DNA recovered from the victim's

hands under his fingernails. They do identify the DNA of the defendants. You know, I don't really care about his not a sex affair in the backseat in the parking garage. I don't care about politics. In fact, I hate politics. I do care about DNA. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now, renowned scientist, Dr. Kristen Middleman, the Chief Development Officer of Authrem, Inc. And you can find her at DNAsolves.com. Dr. Middleman, thank you for being with us. All the rest, while it is circumstantial evidence, which is equally as probative or proving, which probative means, as direct evidence,

I would not kick a little direct evidence in the teeth. I'm talking about DNA. DNA under the dead victim's fingernails. Explain. Absolutely. So the DNA was found underneath the victim's fingernails, and the DNA was a match to the perpetrator. And so at that point, you can see very clearly that you know that there's beyond any reasonable doubt the person was there and and somehow his DNA

was under the fingernails there was also DNA found on the victims DNA found on the shoes of the perpetrator and so you can see that there was exchange of DNA in both directions from that crime scene and I think that without a exchange of DNA in both directions from that crime scene. And I think that without a shadow of a doubt, that shows that it confirms all of the other evidence that may or may not be probative and may be circumstantial, as you said. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Have you ever heard the phrase training on the job? Absolutely, Nancy. And we see it and we do it all the time. You know, Dr. Dupree, I wanted to ask you this specific thing.

I just immediately flashed back to my very first murder case. And before I went to the morgue to cross-examine the medical examiner to get myself, I thought I was preparing him. I was really preparing myself to put him on the stand. I was looking at crime scene photos, and I saw paper bags over the victim's hands with a rubber band at the wrist. I thought, wow, they're paper bags on the victim's hands. Then I found out.

Explain. Absolutely, Nancy. In any type of a personal crime like this, we always try to bag the victim's hands with paper bags, not plastic, but paper bags so that we can catch any evidence thatelial cells or those skin cells under the fingernails, which point to the suspect. And then, of course, you want to get a shot, if the arrest is in time, of the defendant's body to see if there are scratches about the neck or face or arms or really anywhere that would match up to fingernails. They look like a furrow or where you're planting something out in a field. Lines. You can tell they're fingernail scratches.

Another thing about this, Dr. Kristen Middleman joining us, Chief Development Officer at Authram Inc. When you say there's a match, you make it sound so simple. But could you talk about the statistical likelihoods that you have seen in other cases that the killer is anyone other than the defendant? So usually with SDR testing, there's not enough people on earth for it to be anyone else. So it would be one in some sort of quintillion or something that some number that is so high that there's not enough people on earth or if the SDRs match which is a testing that was done here using

DNA analysis then there would not be enough people on earth for it to be someone else. So on many DNA deoxyribonucleic acid reports I've seen the match as you so simply refer to it as is something like statistically statistically scientifically there is a one in five trillion chance it's not this guy one in five trillion in other words it's him that DNA under fingernails, under the victim's fingernails, and the DNA on the defendant's shoes. Lisa Daddio joining us. Lisa, why is it the defendants always forget about their shoes? Although this guy didn't forget. He tried to destroy them, I believe.

Didn't he, Vanessa? It appears that way that, yeah, he tried to destroy a couple of things. What did he try to destroy them i believe didn't even ask uh it appears that way that yeah he tried to destroy a couple of things what did he try to destroy i believe they found a hat in pieces that hat from that video and the shoes yeah i mean i mean right there lisa daddio who goes home and tears up their straw hat and their tennis shoes and then you just happen to find the victim's dna why do people why do killers forget about their their shoes i mean i would like to think a lot of times it's because they they like the shoes they spent a lot more money on the shoes and they're just not thinking that there's any evidence on the shoes where there would be

more evidence on a shirt or on a pair of pants. They're not thinking how small, in this case, blood, you know, a droplet could be on the shoes because they don't see it. I mean, that's one of the first things I do, Lisa, is go to the defendant's closet. Yeah, get all those shoes. Take a listen now to our friend John Huck at Fox 5. Rob Tellis faces open murder charges in the killing of Review Journal reporter Jeff Gehrman. Investigators say Tellis held a grudge over articles Gehrman wrote about him. They say that brought him to Gehrman's Summerlin home on Friday, where he's accused of stabbing the journalist to death. The nature of this case and the nature of Mr. Gehrman's assignments required a good investigator to make inquiry.

You know, what was Mr. Gehrman working on? Was he investigating certain persons? Could those persons be the perpetrator? Isn't it true to investigative reporter joining us, Vanessa Murphy, KLAS, that Vegas does have the death penalty. I believe it's death by needle. Nevada does have the death penalty, although no one has been executed in since April 26, 2006, to be precise. Well, there's always a first time. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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