Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Respected District Attorney Disappears During Weekend Road Trip (Best of Crime Stories)

Episode Date: November 25, 2021

Pennsylvania District Attorney Ray Gricar disappeared on a warm spring day, April 15, 2005. He told his live-in girlfriend he was taking off work and going for a drive to Lewisburg. He's seen at least once in town, but that's all. Gricar's red Mini Cooper was found in the parking lot of an antique mall two days later. His work cellphone was found inside. Ray Gricar vanished.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Bob Buehner - Former Montour County District Attorney, Past President of the PA District Attorneys Association, Friend and Close Colleague of Victim Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist, www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology" Lisa M. Dadio - Former Police Lieutenant, New Haven Police Department, Senior Lecturer, Director of the Center for Advanced Policing University of New Haven's Forensic Science Department Rebecca Knight - Writer/Reporter, Podcast: "Final Argument: The Disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gricar", RayGricar.com, Facebook.com/FinalArgumentPodcast, Instagram: @FinalArgumentPodcast, Twitter: @ finalargument Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. He did it all. He prosecuted rapes, sex assaults, kidnaps, murders. And he did it well. A dad, a husband. So what happened to renowned attorney Ray Gricard? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let's just start at the beginning.

Take a listen to this. Initially, you know, Patty called our office that night and reported that Ray had gone to, she thought, to the Lewisburg area to do some shopping antique shopping and stuff and he hadn't returned home yet well initially we thought maybe his car broke down something of that nature that he decided to stay overnight he wasn't feeling well so we went down and not we went down, but we initiated some phone calls of the state police to Lewisburg police, to Milton State Police, you know, telling him, hey, the center county district attorney has not come home yet. We think he was in the Lewisburg area earlier today. That's where he was supposedly going. And they initiated some searches down there. So how does he seemingly just drop off the map? A well-known prosecuting attorney in good standing there in the bar. Joining me,

an all-star panel to try and make sense of the disappearance of Ray Gricar. Joining me, Bob Buhner, former Montauk County District Attorney, former president of the Pennsylvania District Attorney's Office, friend, and very close colleague of the victim. Dr. Sherry Swartz joining us, friends and psychologists specializing in criminal behavior at panthermitigation.com. And she is the author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect. Boy, do we need her. Lisa Daddio, former police lieutenant in the Haven Police Department, senior lecturer and director of the Center for Advanced Policing. With me right now.

And let's go to her first. Rebecca Knight joining us. Her podcast, Final Argument, The Disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gricar, and you can also find her at raygricar.com. Rebecca Knight, let's just start at the beginning. There are a lot of questions, a lot of speculation surrounding the disappearance of Ray Gricar, really in the prime of his life, at the height of his legal career. But let's start at the beginning. You know, Rebecca, when cases falter and they go so-called cold, that's what you do. You start at the beginning, the day the person disappeared,

where they were last seen, was the home ransacked, was the car wrecked, all of the elementary building blocks that start an investigation. And that's where we're starting right now in the unusual disappearance of Ray Gricar. Back to you, Rebecca Knight, tell me about the day he goes missing. The day Ray Gricar went missing, they didn't find his car for 36 hours. And one of the things I wanted to look at was what was happening during those 36 hours before the police finally found his car. Okay, pause right there. I hate to interrupt, Rebecca, but when I say start at the beginning, I mean really the beginning, not 36 hours after the beginning. Now, you, being such an incredible investigative writer and reporter, are going straight to the heart of the matter.

But for those of us Luddites that like to start with who, what, where, why, and when. What day did he go missing? April 15, 2005. Tax day. That's how I always remember the day that Ray Greencar went missing. It was tax day. And let me ask you this, Rebecca Knight. What time of the day was he last known to be alive or was seen. You can time that based on a phone call, a message, a text, a surveillance video at the grocery store, anything. He made a phone call to his

girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, from his county-issued cell phone at around 11.15 that morning on Friday, April 15th, 2005. And based on that phone call to his then-girlfriend, where was he and what was he doing? Ray Grickart was traveling east on Route 192 in Pennsylvania. He was going through an area called Brush Valley in a very, very rural area of Pennsylvania. He was in his Mini Cooper, his red and white Mini Cooper. And he was traveling down 192 on his way to Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. Why was he going to Lewisburg?

Well, no one knows why he was going to Lewisburg, but we do know that he had been to Lewisburg many, many times before. Very, very interesting to me. Guys, joining me is reporter Rebecca Knight, and she is the creator of a podcast, Final Argument, The Disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gric association, and that's not easy to attain. But more important, as it relates to this moment, friend and colleague of Ray Gricar. You know, Bob, how far was his home from, was it Lewisburg where he was traveling or Lewiston? It's approximately from Belfont, the county seat of Center County, where he was DA, to Lewisburg, approximately 60 miles, basically going over mountains and forests between the two communities. Hold on, hold on, hold on, because I'm going very slowly. And Bob, I don't know how you prosecuted all your cases, but I can tell you this. When the medical examiner saw me pulling up and my beat up Honda,

I'm sure they all wanted to hide beneath their chairs because I would have to take apart every single sentence of their Latin jargon. No offense Schwartz, but to make sense of it. So let me just understand what you just said. No offense, Schwartz, but to make sense of it. So let me just understand what you just said. So very often, according to Rebecca Knight, and for no apparent reason, Ray Gricar would travel 60 miles through forests and over a mountain to get to, is it Lewisburg or Lewiston? Lewisburg. Do we have any idea? Because, for instance, when I was living in Atlanta, I would very often, if someone could pull up my navigation system,

drive 90 miles south on the interstate. Why? Because I was going to my hometown of Macon to check on my parents or my parents' home. And there was a reason for that. But I find this very interesting. Why is Ray Gricard traveling over a mountain three, four, 60 miles? Could be two hours, depending on the mountain.

Why? What was in Lewisburg? Actually, antique shops, Nancy. There are several well-known antique places that are kind of co-ops. And Ray had an interest in certain types of antiques, especially antique cameras. So he would go to a place... Okay, stop. Stop everything. Sure. I'm always surprised pleasantly and thrilled when I learn something I haven't already gleaned

from my research and investigation. I knew he was into antiquing. I did not know that specialty. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is opening up a whole plethora of possibilities for me, Bob Buhner, because I didn't realize he was that deep into the antiquing world. And you know how they haggle over prices. Will he into something like some vintage camera from 19-whatever? Sure. You could go down all sorts of rabbit holes trying to get that and come in contact with a lot of people that could be scamming you. That's true.

I think he had a pretty sophisticated knowledge of anti-cameras, the Polaroids, and the Kodaks of the day. And so I don't know that he could be scammed because he was pretty astute in things involving his interest in antiques. Bob, you know, I don't mean he doesn't know what he's doing. I mean, someone, for instance, one thing I cover a lot, I even write about it in my new book, Don't Be a Victim. P.S. all the money goes to National Center of Missing and Exploited Children if you want to pick it up, Bob. But about buying or doing business online, because I've covered so many cases where people go to, for instance, a marketplace online and then they show up across town to get the item and bam, they get killed and robbed, raped, the whole shebang.

So I'm not saying he's not astute. I'm saying there's a possibility he was led down a rabbit hole thinking he was going to get X, and when he got there, all he ended up getting was the wrong end of a gun barrel. Yeah, what we know, Nancy, is that approximately 2 p.m. on April 15th, he had parked his Mini Morris Cooper by the river bridge that goes over the Susquehanna River into Lewisburg. Okay, Bob Banner, another thing. You know, I know you hate the interruptions because you're used to having control over that whole courtroom and nobody dares interrupt your opening or closing. You're darn right. But, you know, they did not teach me shorthand in law school so slow it down buddy okay 2 15 p.m april 15 go ahead i've gotten that far he is

standing on a sidewalk outside his mini morris cooper three individuals working in a museum right across the street from where he had parked his car, observed him. And their statements to the police indicated that it appeared to them that he was waiting for someone and, in fact, had actually moved his car a couple spaces away from where he had initially parked, as if to make a parking spot available for someone else. And that's what we— May I jump in here? Yeah. Yes, Rebecca, I was just going to come to you.

Do we know who he was meeting? Well, one of my witnesses that I interviewed said, and I'm going to pick up the scene here where Bob just talked about him being in that park across the street from the museum. One of my witnesses, and I spoke with her several times, and she told the police this, that it looked like, she said, he looked like he was on a cell phone walking back and forth and gesturing with his arms sometimes wildly. In other words, what's going on? When I got the copy of the case file, I looked at his cell phone records for his county issued cell phone and there were no other numbers on there of calls that he had made that day, which tells me that this woman may have seen

him using a burner phone. Okay, stop again. Rebecca Knight, did you speak to the witness face to face? Yes, I did. You looked in their face as they were telling you this? Most everyone I talked to, I would go to see them because I have to look at people in the eye. I've got to see their faces. Because as you know, Bob Buhner, all your years as the Montour County District Attorney, a lot of times, and I know other people will mock this, don't care. You can tell when somebody's lying. Oh, absolutely. Now, I find that really very interesting because, I mean, Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist specializing in criminal behavior, a defense

attorney would argue to a jury just because the witness thought the person was on their phone walking back and forth gesticulating. Does in no way mean a burner phone. But you know what? I think a jury would disagree. And when someone is wildly gesticulating, i.e. moving their hands or arms around as they speak or not speak, moving their hands and arms around, that tells me they were communicating with someone and they were agitated. So we've got him at 2.15 p.m. the day he goes missing and taking in another town an hour and a half, two hours away, angry or upset and gesticulating. That tells me a lot. That has never come to light on a national platform. To my knowledge, Rebecca and Bob, what do you make

of it, Sherry? This is very important. Especially if the witness is deemed credible, right? If a jury hears this witness testify, and witnesses are generally truth-telling if they have no vested interest in the outcome of a case, then this is very important information. You know, and he was noticeable clearly, not just because of the behavior, but as Rebecca points out in her podcast, the car was very rare, right? So if he's near the car, people might notice him. And then if he's having this conversation, I mean, we all sort of

engage in that little bit of voyeurism in public, right? When you see somebody flailing their arms and maybe you can even hear them, but they appear agitated, you think, uh-oh, they're having an argument with somebody, right? So this is observable behavior that indicates that something's up with Ray Gregar. And so, and it's troubling if there's no evidence of that call at that time. That's right. There's no phone call. Exactly. Those have those phone records and they're not there.

No other calls. Guys, take a listen again to the first lead investigator on the case. This is Daryl Zucconi and he's speaking to PennLive.com. Listen. We gave them the description of the car, the license plate for it, you know, and basically we started a missing persons report, you know, look for this gentleman. When I got in in the morning, um, it was the first I had heard about it is when I got to work that morning and the chief and I, uh, he, he told me about it and said, come on, let's go talk to Patty.

And from there, we went up to see Patty and things just progressed. We started a series of different searches over a course of period of time then on what we were going to do. I think initially we were holding out hope that Ray had just gotten ill, had decided to stay overnight to do some more shopping, and his cell phone went dead or something. And he didn't get hold of Patty, and he would show up in the morning and stuff. So some confusion about the night before, but that in no way negates where he was at 2.15 p.m. the day he's last seen alive. But listen to our friend Lester Holt at Dateline NBC. When Ray Gricar disappeared in April 2005, he had everything to live for. He'd learned how to kick back a bit outside of the office.

The Ray I knew, great sense of humor. You had to know him to see it. Sometimes it was dry. It was compassionate. Just a wonderful person. Ray and girlfriend Patty love to take long drives together and go antiquing. We mostly bought dishes because they were small. The house is small, so we had to stick to small things, but dishes or books, Ray was an avid reader. Ray had served as district attorney of Center County for nearly 20 years, and he had a sterling reputation. Bob Buhner, longtime friend and colleague of Ray Gricar. How does the name Jerry Sandusky fit into this scenario? I think it's very much, in one sense, a red herring, Nancy, because what happened in 2011, Jerry Sandusky was arrested for child abuse and

the world media descended into Center County. And when they got there, they discovered, hey, there's a missing district attorney from 2005 who back in 1998 did investigate a charge of child abuse against Jerry Sandusky, but felt there was not enough information or evidence to have an arrest made. So naturally, people started speculating, well, the Jerry Sandusky case and the disappearance of Ray Creek are somehow connected. I have never seen that connection, and I have studied this case for years. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So I guess the connection straight out to renowned investigator Lisa M. Daddio, former Lieutenant New Haven Police Senior Lecturer. I guess the theory regarding the famed, or let me say infamous, coach Jerry Sandusky, the theory would be that Ray Grykar knew about the child molestation,

well, the molestation charges, and did nothing, and that someone came and sought revenge on him. I guess that would be the working theory? Yeah. I mean, I guess you can make that stretch. For me, it seems a little bizarre, strange to make that type of connection. If he had reviewed something, you know, several years prior and had declined prosecution for whatever reason, why is this now coming up years later when he disappears? Well, you know, that's something I've argued to juries many, many times, Lisa Daddio, because very often a defense attorney or really someone that hasn't tried a lot of cases or investigated

a lot, they actually believe movie scripts and books and novels. They think that it's very common for there to be revenge killings. Well, maybe in the mafia, maybe in the mafia. Okay, definitely in the mafia, there are revenge killings. But in real life, I mean, think this thing through. If you were angry because Jerry Sandusky raped your son or molested your child, why not kill Jerry Sandusky raped your son or molested your child. Why not kill Jerry Sandusky? Why go dig up Ray Grekar and hit the home he was,

he had there and follow him when he's antiquing and, and kill him and dispose of his body. That, that doesn't make sense. Why not kill Sandusky? Well, that's an investigation what is is this rebecca or lisa this is rebecca okay go ahead well i didn't think that this first of all i think he was murdered uh i think it was a professional hit i think that it was not a revenge killing. But what I do think, and I think that the evidence from the case file, together with all of the interviews I did through the years and talked with hundreds of people,

and some people that the police never even talked to, was that I put together a picture emerged for me. And I believe that Ray Gricar was working on the biggest case of his life. I think he was getting ready to charge Jerry Sandusky, Penn State University, and the Second Mile Charity when he disappeared. That's what my podcast is about. You know, Rebecca Knight, I've always argued there is no coincidence in criminal law. Right. His very in-depth investigation, and it must be said about Ray Grekar, you don't win jury trials because you go in and showboat the jury,

unless you're Johnny Cochran. You usually win jury trials because you go in and showboat the jury unless you're johnny cochran you usually win jury trials and this is an old saying but it's true it's 99 perspiration one percent inspiration that is how you win or succeed at anything with the proper preparation. If you're willing to put in the time, you will most likely succeed. Would you agree, Bob Buhner, that Grekar had a reputation of literally crossing every T, dotting every I, never unprepared when he went into court? Nancy, Ray Grekar was the most meticulous prosecutor probably in the entire Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. He left no detail unexamined.

He always asked law enforcement officials in the case the next question, and he anticipated not just his direct examination but what would be subjects on cross-examination, prepared his witnesses at great length. So, yes, that was the Ray Gricar that I know, and I think his reputation was sterling in that regard. Preparation was the key to him. I've got to tell you something, Bob. Yes.

I've got to tell you something, and. I've got to tell you something. And I've told it to many, many litigation class. You have to think about not only what you're going to do, but what they're going to do and how you're going to counter it. You have to prepare as a prosecutor, not only your case,

but you have to anticipate and prepare your attack on the defense case and you're just saying that i'm imagining all the man hours he put into preparing these cases that's exactly right so bob can you imagine the irritation of the sandusky team when they've got this meticulous prosecutor digging up every possible witness, leaving no stone unturned, and finding out a lot of things they wish he didn't know. Well, I think that's one of the things that is somewhat unknown,

how far in the case file Ray was getting. He was very frustrated back in 1998 when a young child had been in a shower with Sandusky, and he went home with wet hair, and the mother inquired what happened, and the child told her mother, who then called the police, and Ray Gricar and the state college and university police tried to set a trap for Sandusky, but it didn't work. So knowing Ray, that would have been incredibly frustrating, and he would have worked to figure out a way to do more investigating and find some of the areas where Sandusky would be involved with children and explore that. And one was called the Second Mile, a charity Sandusky would be involved with children and explore that and one was called the second mile a charity Sandusky had started that was ostensibly to design

for children from single-family homes to be placed in special programs or go to special events to help them improve their lives. So we now know that that was a cover for Sandusky. So let me clarify. The argument that many people have made that Gricar was shot out of revenge because he did not go forward with the Sandusky investigation is the furthest thing from the truth. In fact, he was working to sting Sandusky.

Would you agree? Yes, Nancy, I would agree with that. And I think I don't see that anybody connected with the victims of Sandusky would have had any revenge factor against Ray Grekar. First of all, many of them were young, and in 2005, hardly any would have even reached their 18th birthday. You're absolutely correct. So I want to just clarify that for all of the haters out there that have attacked Gray Carr for not pursuing Sandusky. He was, in fact, pursuing Sandusky like a bat out of hell. Take a listen now to our cut for this is reporter Gary Sinterson, WJAC-TV. Almost a decade later, many here still remember when they first heard.

I got a call. I was actually up in State College at a breakfast. We got a call that morning. And Sheriff Denny now came in and handed me a note that said Ray Grecar is messy. And I looked up at him and he said, I'm not kidding. And so it began, April 15th, 2005. I thought something bad happened to him because Ray was a very, if you will, quote, predictable individual. Longtime Center County District Attorney Ray Gricar. Gricar was an exceptional prosecutor. I spent 35 years in government and worked around hundreds of attorneys, and he was the best trial attorney I ever worked around.

Becomes a missing person and eventually a worldwide mystery case. Anyone involved in this case has a theory. My secretary has a theory. I'm sure you have a theory. crime stories with nancy grace theories series series it sounds like um reading the tea leaves which most people don't believe in but these theories are founded in reality, including a persistence in trying to catch child molester, renowned coach, Jerry Sandusky. Now, take a listen now to my friend, Gene Kassaris, with me at HLN. What happened to Ray Grykar? Straight out to Gene Kassaris.

Gene, what's the latest? Nancy, the latest is that there have been numerous suspected sightings of Ray Gricar since he vanished, since he went missing. But the minute people think they see him, he's gone. So the question is, could this man, this elected district attorney, still be alive around the country somewhere, taking on a new identity? Or is he the victim of a homicide or even a suicide? Back to you, Bob Buhner, former prosecutor and longtime friend of Ray Gricar.

I've never believed the suicide or the living under a false name theory. Now, Olivia Newton-John's boyfriend, yeah, I think he's alive in Mexico wearing a floppy hat and having a margarita right now. Ray Gricar, no, there's no reason he would assume a new identity nor would he commit suicide. You're exactly right Nancy. First of all, the idea that he walked away, he could have done the rest of 2005 not shown up at the office at all and still collected his paycheck. And at the end of 2005, with his retirement, he was going to get a huge pension. Again, never touched. The FBI examined his finances for three years prior to when he went missing. They can only not account for $15,000

over three years or $100 a week. And none of his bank accounts, none of his credit cards have been touched since April 15, 2005. So how he would ever be able to do all these things that these theorists have is really preposterous. And secondly, with suicide, Ray was 59 years old, in good physical and mental health. He had plans for retirement. We spoke about his plans to travel the national parks with his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola. He wanted to see his daughter, Laura, out in the Seattle, Washington area. This is a guy that had a plan for his future with no known stressors in his life and a healthy pension to take care of himself. Well, not only was he renowned as a prosecutor, why would you leave your family or commit suicide leaving them behind in the dust? Let's cut forward to our cut to take a listen to

our friend Lester Holt at Dateline NBC. I spoke to my dad often. I would say three to four times a week. We were in pretty regular contact. In that spring of 2005, Ray was 59, just eight months away from retirement, and he was ready for it. He was already starting to cut back on his workload. Already starting to cut back on his workload. Other than the sting, he was planning on famed coach Jerry Sandusky. Take a listen again to our cut one. This is Lester Holt. He was the district attorney in Pennsylvania's Center County, working in the postcard pretty town of Belfont. Penn State is just down the road. It's a powerful presence in this central Pennsylvania neighborhood. Back in April 2005, Ray Gricar had served the better part of five terms and racked up a stellar reputation. But it's the nature of the job that, you know, you do difficult things, you make

difficult choices. He was the most serious prosecutor I've ever met. Bob Buhner was Ray's friend. He's the DA in neighboring Montour County. He met Ray Gricar almost two decades ago, and over the years, the two traded shop talk whenever they could. Did he go with his gut? Did he shoot from the hip? Or was he like, punch all the right buttons and then get to the answer? He was the guy that always had the next question.

What about this? Did you consider that? He was the guy that always had the next question. What about this? Did you consider that? He was the most serious guy, most ethical guy. To Lisa Daddio, former police lieutenant, New Haven PD, senior lecturer. Lisa, it has happened in the past where prosecutors have been killed because of what they're doing in court. It's more often that a prosecutor, like what happened to me, will get your tire slid or your windows broken in your car. Maybe your mailbox knocked down or your door kicked in during a very heated trial. That happens. But killing a prosecutor or killing a cop, an investigator, it doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen. Yeah, it does happen.

And, you know, we can't ignore it that, oh, it's so rare, it's impossible. It does happen. And so especially with the fact that he was working on this incredibly high-profile case, he had previously worked on high-prof profile cases, got convictions. His reputation is just unbelievable that it's possible that he was murdered by either somebody connected to a previous case or something to do with Sandusky. What do you think, Rebecca Knight? I mean, you're the one that has created this podcast, Final Argument, the disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gricar. What do you think? State University and the Second Mile Charity, and that he got too close and he found out too much and he was about ready to charge because Ray Grickart didn't charge cases unless he had what he called the shot through the heart of the wild boar. This is what I was told by one of his colleagues and peers. And another thing, a former district attorney who was a longtime friend and colleague of Mr. Gricar told me that about a year before Ray Gricar went missing,

he and Ray Gricar were having lunch in State College. And after lunch, they went for a walk down the street and Gricar pointed out a man up ahead, and he said, you see that guy up there? And this other gentleman said, yeah, so what? He said, that's Jerry Sandusky. file and I'm going to put him away if it's the last thing I do. That was a year before he went missing. And this was told to me by a seasoned prosecutor who is a new Ray Gricar for decades and we're friends. So what do we do? Bob Buehner, what about it? What do you think? I actually have a different take on things. I believe that Ray Gricar had prosecuted a member of the Hells Angels chapter of Westchester County in New York who had been in federal prison with a 20-year sentence, but after five years was miraculously released from prison and ended up in a very remote part of Center County, so clearly Witness Protection Program, and this Hells Angel biker had viciously assaulted a farmer out in the rural area of Center County. Ray prosecuted him, convicted him, and I believe he was the person who led the revenge.

We know that the U.S. Marshals and the FBI reached out to Ray Gricar asking him for leniency because this Hells Angel man had done some favors for the federal government and helped convict other motorcycle bikers. And I believe that that's the person who was involved in ordering the hit on Ray Grekar. If you know or think you know any information regarding the disappearance of family Greek R, please call 814-696-6100. Repeat, 814-696-6100. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.